[El Tejon]

From time to time here at THR we get dog shooting threads. This case serves as a reminder to us all that if you do not have to shoot (you are not in danger), do not shoot.

Problem #2 is real. It is not something that was created in a lab to spoil your fun of shooting your gun at anything you want because you have a pistol so you are invincible and no harm can come from your shooting "trespassers".:rolleyes: When you discharge your pistol, there is a chance that you will go to jail.

****************************************************

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IN_BACKYARD_SHOOTING_INOL-?SITE=INLAF&SECTION=STATE&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2007-11-24-14-31-31

Ricocheted bullet killed Evansville woman on Thanksgiving

WADESVILLE, Ind. (AP) -- A woman who was fatally shot Thursday while trying to coax her dog from a neighbor's yard was hit by a bullet that ricocheted off the ground and under a plastic fence before striking her shoulder.

The bullet from a .357-caliber Magnum pierced both the lungs and heart of Nicole Stroud, 29, Vanderburgh County Coroner Don Erk said. The Evansville woman was leaning down, trying to get her Shih Tzu dog out of a neighbor's yard and through a hole in the bottom of a fence when she was shot.

The neighbor accused of firing the gun, Melinda Lindauer, 41, was arrested on preliminary charges of involuntary manslaughter and reckless homicide. She was still being held in Posey County Jail on Saturday.

Posey County Prosecutor Jodi Uebelhack said she believes Lindauer fired from a back window of her house at a dog that was loose from a neighboring house, where Stroud was visiting her grandmother.

The Lindauers live directly behind Stroud's grandmother. Wadesville is about 15 miles northwest of Evansville.

The prosecutor said Lindauer might not have seen Stroud and probably didn't intend to kill her, but criminal charges still were warranted. Indiana law states that a person can only fire a gun at a dog if it is threatening an individual or livestock.

"After we got all the statements, it was pretty clear this was a criminal act," Uebelhack said. "It's never an accident to pick up a gun and shoot it."

Uebelhack said a statement given to police by Lindauer's husband, Lonnie, indicated that there was an ongoing dispute between the neighbors over the dog. She said he told authorities the dog had previously dug up a cat that was buried in the Lindauer's backyard.

Melinda Lindauer's attorney, Nick Hermann, said he could not comment on the specifics of the case. But he said that the Lindauers are distraught over what happened.

"Their thoughts and prayers go out to the family of the lady who died in this incident," he said.

[Clipper]

Gimme a break...:rolleyes:

[VARifleman]

El T, there may be some posters who say they will shoot any dog in there yard, however, the most of them say that any dog that's a threat will get shot, and still profess the 4 rules in doint so.

[The Lone Haranguer]

:confused: Was there another dog? Surely there was no danger from a little Shih Tzu. :rolleyes:

[plexreticle]

Melinda Lindauer, 41, was arrested on preliminary charges of involuntary manslaughter and reckless homicide.

Good call, she needs to be in jail for killing that lady.

[jimmyraythomason]

It is a felony to shoot/kill ANY dog here in Alabama. Makes no difference if you own the dog or not.

[lacoochee]

Well, I don't know about Alabama, (can't imagine in all circumstances it is a felony , what if it's pit bull eating your two year old?) in Florida an animal (dog or otherwise) threatening livestock or a human can be shot, but the four rules still apply and any collateral damage is your responsibility.

[Jim Watson]

Here in Alabama, you shoot the dog, you might have to shoot the owner... or be shot by him. And I am NOT kidding.

But it is like any self defense. First, stay alive, then go to court if you have to.

[jerkface11]

If it's a threat it's dead. Hard to imagine circumstances where a shih-tzu is a threat though. And a .357 without a backstop is just plain negligent. Nearly as bad as the cops who killed the 5 year old while shooting a snake.

[redneckrepairs]

Here in Colorado Ill shoot any mutt close to my livestock , end of discussion . As far as my yard in town goes tho i never felt a need to shoot any dog there . IMHO a fiberglass stock sorting stick tends to take care of the surliest mutt at a safe enough range for town use .

[brigadier]

Some people just don't have the emotional self-control to own and use guns. This does not mean I think the government is to decide who does and who doesn't. That's mother Natures job along with the gun owners they prove it to. I am not sure if I am entirely in agreement with those rule (and I mean not sure) but common sense suggests that a known neighbor at your property line making call motions at their dog is just trying to respect your property. If you want them gone, going out there with a gun in your hand and telling them to get lost should be more then enough to give them the message, and if you are going to fire a warning shot, only a total idiot is going to shoot down range. Ultimately, it appears that this lady acted in total disregard for the other persons safety. Likewise, the law, in this case, worked the way it should. That is, provided this news story is truthful. My experience with journalists and reporters has left me with no confidence in them though. In any case, I am an innocent until proven guilty person. Let the locals deal with it.

Live and let live is a hard learned concept that we all need to follow if we want to live and live happy. No matter how gun crazy you are, certain rules must be obeyed to insure you live as you please. If you turn everything free for all, so will everyone else, and then no one is safe. Anyone who has been in combat knows that when you put the lives of others in danger, you put your own life in danger as well. Most of us understand and practice this concept when it comes to gun violence. The one that the majority of all people have a hard time with is letting others do as they please, so long as they don't bother anyone. Once you infringe upon it, you introduce the entire thing to the arena and then everyone uses it. This is the main reason why our rights are going down the tube. Everyone infringes upon the rights of others while claiming other rights for themselves.

[Cannonball888]

The shooter didn't own livestock, nor could she have been threatened by a dog while she was in her house. Posey County Prosecutor Jodi Uebelhack said she believes Lindauer fired from a back window of her house at a dog
She's gonna do jail time.

[redneckrepairs]

The shooter didn't own livestock, nor could she have been threatened by a dog while she was in her house.

Never said she did or could LOL . Just stated i am not about to stop shooting dogs , and why/when i do shoot them .

IMHO she should do time for at least manslaughter if not more .

[fearless leader]

In Florida, she would be charged with manslaughter, and cruelty to animals, 3rd class felony.

[ilbob]

it ain't so much the dog shooting that is offensive, as whether the need exists in the first place, and whether it is done safely.

[trueblue1776]

It is a felony to shoot/kill ANY dog here in Alabama. Makes no difference if you own the dog or not.

I would love for you to produce a cite for that. :scrutiny:

[roscoe]

It is a felony to shoot/kill ANY dog here in Alabama. Makes no difference if you own the dog or not.
I doubt that.

This is a bit of a straw man thread, or at least is not specfic to dogs.

[GEM]

Taking that shot was so stupid. The dog was not an active threat.

[R.W.Dale]

Know your target and what is beyond.
Be absolutely sure you have identified your target beyond any doubt. Equally important, be aware of the area beyond your target. This means observing your prospective area of fire before you shoot. Never fire in a direction in which there are people or any other potential for mishap. Think first. Shoot second.

http://www.nrahq.org/education/guide.asp

[Ron James]

The lady was stupid and shouldn't have been allowed near any type of firearm. That said, I will throw this in. In rural Michigan and I know in other states I have lived in there were trouble with dog "Packs". Little lovable Rover by himself is a faithful companion. Put Rover in a group of dogs with a good alpha leader and their wolf ancestry emerges. We raised a small number of sheep on our farm , about 20, used them for brush clearing mostly. We had receive warnings about a pack of dogs in the area and was on the alert. Sure enough I heard a commotion ( only one home, 15 years old) and grabbing my .22 I ran to the pasture, Now any dog will run sheep, sheep have got to be one of the dumbest of all of God's creatures, but good farm dogs will learn that its a no-no.. In this case two sheep were already down and they had shagged another one. When the smoke cleared away there were 4 dead dogs on the ground. Called the law and together we visited the owners of two of the dogs we were able to ID. Sure enough, they had no ideal their dogs were running in a pack. Townies, that had moved to the country and had no concept or knowledge of rural life These same dogs had already been responsible for attacks on a young girl who was out walking, she was able to climb a tree and only suffered minor injuries, so there were already a so call "death warrant " out on the dogs. I did not enjoy killing those dogs, in fact I was very upset and pi**ed off the owners. Normal farm dogs don't run, my dog was never out of sight or hearing of the family. If a dog was a runner, he was given away or put down. However, anyone who would shoot at a dog in a town setting , with a .357 has got to be as dumb as our sheep. I posted this information to show there are at times, justification in shooting dogs. When deer hunting we also were told by the game warden to shoot any dogs we spoted "running deer".

[meef]

Now any dog will run sheep, sheep have got to be one of the dumbest of all of God's creatures, but good farm dogs will learn that its a no-no.. In this case two sheep were already down and they had shagged another one.:what:

Oh really?

Good grief, nasty dogs.

That sounds like something Austin Powers would say.

[Clipper]

It is a felony to shoot/kill ANY dog here in Alabama. Makes no difference if you own the dog or not.

I'll call major BS here...Show me the statute.

[wheelgunslinger]

Yeah, shooting at the shih-tzu that was probably nose to the ground looking for new scents and checking out new territory while in the city and using a 357 is just a string of bad ideas.
This was probably due to beef between the neighbors.
But, there are some people who believe that what someone at Hardees or the Gun Club told them about shooting whatever you like on your property with anything you like is true. It has to be. No need to verify or use common sense.
Or ask an attorney, judge, prosecutor, or whomever.

A human being is dead now and someone is going to prison because of someone's desire to kill a dog on their property.

I'd rather take my chances unarmed against a fight club rottweiler than go to prison like this poor sap will.

[TallPine]

Can anyone spell "non sequitar" ???? :rolleyes:

If you let your dog run loose on other people's land in rural Montana, he/she will get shot sooner or later. And there isn't a dang thing you can do about it.

[Seminole]

Can anyone spell "non sequitar" ????

Heh, heh, heh!

I don't normally comment on spelling errors because it just isn't productive. But this is just funny. :evil:

[Clipper]

Can anyone spell "non sequitar" ????

That's great...

[El Tejon]

Tall Pine, thank you, it is exactly the shoot first ask questions later attitude that I am addressing.

Just because you have a gun does not mean you get to shoot. I first saw this attitude when I had a seminar at Northwestern. A rancher in Wyoming blew the top of a kid's head off with a .338. The rancher thought he was shooting at the neighbor's dog.

"Eye kin shoot anythang on meye land" will get you a new roomie.:uhoh:

Think twice, shoot once.:D

[siglite]

Many years ago, I had to shoot a dog. :(

It and it's buddy came upon me and my wife (she was my gf at the time) while we were squirrel hunting. Both dogs were barking, snarling, and acting extremely aggressive. With my single shot .22, I figured I was in trouble because I had one shot, and there were two dogs. I was thinking I'd have to shoot one, and club the other. When the most aggressive of the two lunged, I shot. It decided it wasn't such a good idea to continue the fight and turned and ran. The other dog evaluated the situation as I was reloading and followed suit.

I have no idea what happened to the lead dog. I have no idea where they came from, or where they went. But I can tell you right now, I felt perfectly justified in the shooting. That lead dog at least, WAS GOING to attack, and possibly in the act of attacking when I took my shot.

This woman will never satisfactorily prove to a jury that she was in imminent mortal fear of a shih tzu.

[MCgunner]

Well, I've had many problems with dogs killing my cats. There's a pack of wild ones roaming the area, still. They cornered two fishermen wade fishing the bay in front of my house and the cops came, but the dogs split the scene. Fishermen were armed with cell phones and 911. This same pack took down several expensive exotic sheep a guy I know was raising not far from here just out of the city limits. He shot three of 'em, but the rest of the pack got away. I've caught these dogs in the act, three times, on my front porch. I was attacked by one in the yard and shot it. I will say no more, still fighting it.

I keep the cats around to take care of my rat problems and they do a great job. Ain't seen a rat in a while, but they're almost more trouble than they're worth, though I like 'em as pets. Had it all to do over again, I'd just invest in rat poison, but I like animals, just don't like being attacked by big dogs who kill my cats. Do I not have a right to self defense? I even have the right to defense of property in this state and I can't help it if the stupid animal control overpaid morons can't take care of the problem or that people won't obey the leash laws in this town. :rolleyes: It's getting to the point that dogs have more rights than humans. If you really wanna arrest somebody, arrest the ones that ignore leash laws and let them roam or dump the pups off out in the country to go wild and cause problems because they can't get the danged dog fixed. There is a certain amount of responsibility to owning a dog, ya know. It can't just go around killing people's live stock and pets and attacking people. NO, you shouldn't shoot a non-threatening dog just because it's on your property, just run it off, done that a bazillion times around here. So long as the dog doesn't attack me or I don't catch it killin' my property, cats, and I mean I just ran those wild dogs off, though if I could have gotten a clear shot at one, I might have taken it. You just can't shoot just any direction in town. You are quite responsible for where that bullet goes after it leaves the barrel. Some folks that advocate shotgun slugs and magnum revolvers and AKs and ARs in apartments and crowded neighborhoods on this board don't seem to know that, either.

[ATAShooter]

If they keep their dogs where they are supposed to be, they wouldn't get greased. I take every precaution to keep my dog secured. And if it goes to someone else's house and reeks havock, it deserves to be plugged. I'm gonna keep poppin 'em , cats included. I don't want my pet shot, so I keep it at home. Suggest the same. Now, I would like to add, one that is just "cutting thru, or moving on", I leave be. Only when they are causing a problem or nuisance, do I do what I got to. A dog barking next door, no.

[Wayne G.]

Wohoo! Made it in before the lock!

New thread idea...

What caliber for a blood-crazed pit Shih Tzu?

[ATAShooter]

Shih Tzu ??? ah, 'bout a 50 Barrett should do it...

[elrod]

Got to be much, much more to this story than is being told. But to shoot from the window of a house at a Shih-tzu, of all things, is nothing short of sheer stupidity. With a .357, no less!:confused::confused::confused:

[MCgunner]

.50 BMG is find for Shih Tzu, but I've been told on this board it takes nothing short of a 105mm howitzer to take down a bear in Alaska. I don't think I wanna move there. :eek:

[gunsmith]

Look at these fierce dogs commandering(SIC) a bus stop, if that doesn't inspire fear, I don't know what would!
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:XwmDtXF1lYk5QM:http://www.puppyparadise.com/Breeds/shih-tzu_tomjpg.jpg

[sm]

Support El Tejon's gun buying and training fund : Whip it out and start blasting.

I am not sure whether to blame the demise of Drive-In Picture Shows, the addition of Flouride to water, or what!
Still something has affected common sense.

We have always had dawgs, and guns.
We have always had rabid dawgs and packs of dawgs running in the rural areas that to be dealt with, same as feral cats and other "pests and threats".

NO mandatory lease laws so the Gubmint would take care of folks, no 911, no nothing.

Now, mess with another person's dawg, would get one in trouble fast!

Folks can "laugh" or "dispute" some of the laws on the books, still some are not stupid and were not passed by "emotion" or "band aid fix".

Q. Why was there a law against spitting on the sidewalk?
A. TB [Tuberculosis ] is airborne. So spit on the sidewalk, spittle dries, someone steps , kicks, shuffles and the spores are airborne and others breath thes TB spores.

A little common sense, courtesy, whether you have a dawg, or around a dawg.
You do not mess with a man's bird dawg, that is his dawg, and trained...you will be asked to leave, and never be invited to hunt with him, and/or on his property again.

What are folks being raised to know these days? Is it all Shoot 'em up and TeeVee, Movie, and Video Game BS?

My niece was attacked by a dawg, her mom and dad trying to dial 911 on $#@# cell phones. *sigh*
Older neighbor, hobbled over and took a stick to the mean , mangy stray.

I've tripped trigger in dawgs in packs, rabid, in rural areas, still WE had a plan, zones of fire and the legal go ahead to do so.

In the city...I've thrown down a glass bottle, and that scared a threatening dawg.
Had to clean up glass, still the folks understood and respected my decision.
I had a rake handy for the next step if needed.

MY default is not guns, and shooting. Paying attention, avoiding, evading and doing anything I can to not have to shoot.

And folks wonder why some folks are Anti gun, sit on the fence or want nothing to do with guns?
Gun owners do more harm to themselves than the anti's do.

[bogie]

Noticed another thing - The lady _thought_ she had the ground as a backstop. Ain't necessarily so. Bullets get fairly bouncy, and can go in darn near any direction. I've seen .223 ricochet (over a berm...) after hitting the ground. And the interesting part is that those were varmint bullets, not FMJ...

And for the newbies - yeah, if you're behind the shooter, you can see the trail left by the bullet, especially at longer distances...

I've also run into dog packs, and those are justifiable. But shooting a dog that you KNOW belongs to a neighbor instead of calling the authorities is just WAY too damn trailer park.

[punchdrunk]

clearly using a hockey stick and working on your slap shot would be the right thing to do.

If someone is stupid enough to do this crime. I wonder what the first words out of their mouth were when they realized what they had done?

think they went defensive? " told ya to keep your dog out" or maybe just let the F bomb drop knowing they were in serious do-do?

[sm]

Noticed another thing - The lady _thought_ she had the ground as a backstop. Ain't necessarily so.

Yep!
Too many folks do not Investigate or Verify anything for themselves.
All it would take would be to have safe areas to actually shoot some media - and take note - it does not always do the same thing each time.

Odd, real odd. One Teevee Show, Movie or Video game shows how ground is a back stop, and the next one shows how it skips.
It never dawns on folks, there is no guarantee something will do what it is supposed to do.

The lesson was shooting under a vehicle, or low cover and "skipping" a bullet.
Same gun, ammo, vehicle, and the bullets did not always do the same thing...back stop had a target and the wholes showed all sorts of "paths" after skipping.

[jimmyraythomason]

Torturing animals includes shooting whether death results or not. Two of the legislators who were involved with the passage of this statute are personal friends/neighbors of mine. I got it straight from the horse's.....mouth. Alabama:

ALA. CODE 13A-11-14 --Last amended 2000

Definition of Animal: Dog or cat shall mean any domesticated member of the
dog or cat family

Statute Summary: A person commits the crime of cruelty to animals if the
person:

Overloads, overdrives, deprives of necessary sustenance or shelter,
unnecessarily or cruelly beats, injures, mutilates, or causes the same to
be done; intentionally tortures any dog or cat or skins a domestic dog or
cat or offers for sale or exchange or offers to buy or exchange the fur, or
pelt of a domestic dog or cat.

Cruelty to a dog or cat:
Class A Misdemeanor
Fine up to $1000

Intentionally tortures any dog or cat:
Class C Felony
Fine up to $5000
Imprisonment up to 10 years
Forfeiture of Animal/Seizure: Both

Other Sentencing Provisions: Cost of Care.

Exemptions: Research, protection of life or property, training; shoots dog
or cat with BB gun for defecating/urinating on property.

[brerrabbit]

I am one of the transgressors about killing dogs. To my credit, I only shoot with a clear shot when I know what I am shooting at. I have yet had to hunt down a wounded dog from a bad shoot.

I keep and raise livestock. I have state law on my side if I shoot one of your dogs if it even looks crosseyed at one of my animals. Your dog will simply disappear if it becomes a problem for me.

I will eat breakfast, read the paper, and go to sleep peacefully after I kill your dog if it is causing me problems.

The onus is not on me to make sure your dog is kept under control.

But a shiitzu(sp)? Come on people get real. Most of my critters would stomp the furry little ankle biter into the dust themselves.

The lady in the OP has issues other than dogs. This was not a dog issue, this was a neighbor issue.

[revjen45]

If you're repelling a nuisance, as opposed to defending self &/or livestock a Wrist Rocket works dandy.

[CDignition]

I like dogs, but the animal rights wackos are really a bane to our society.

The sentences handed down to animal abusers are frequently much harsher than penalties to child molesters and human rights crimes. It is stunning to see some dirtbag get off with a slap on the knuckles for heinous acts, but some guy does something wrong to a dog and they're ready to hang him..

Dogs and animals DESERVE to be treated fairly and with care/kindness...but they have NO rights.

If I see a dog in my yard, I ignore it..if a mean dog is running after me or my kid, im gonna drill it. Plus, my yard isnt your dogs toilet,lol.

Sorry to see the case above go wrong..lets see how the jury system works on this one.

[Clipper]

Sorry Jimmy, but I don't...You provided your own petard to be hoist on:

It is a felony to shoot/kill ANY dog here in Alabama. Makes no difference if you own the dog or not.

This is your own previous post, right?

Exemptions: Research, protection of life or property, training; shoots dog
or cat with BB gun for defecating/urinating on property.

And this is the actual text of the statute, right?

Reading comprension is good...

[jimmyraythomason]

Clipper,yes you do. Not for the content but for the delivery of your challenge. Bold,capitol letters with angry emoticons do not a civil request make.

[Clipper]

I didn't know I was supposed to consult my Emily Post before calling out such obvious B.S. for what it is...If you don't like the taste of shoe leather, don't put your foot in your mouth...

[MCgunner]

There was a bird watcher out on the west end of Galveston Island, recently, watching the sparrows and cliff swallows under the toll bridge, probably. NObody lives out there, just campers wade fishing San Luis pass. The bird watcher saw the cat after a bird, got his .22 and shot the cat. Guess the toll booth workers saw it or something. He got hauled to jail and charged with animal cruelty. Now, I have absolutely no problem with people shooting feral cats! Does that make me a knuckle dragger? The cat was killing wildlife. I don't know if they'd charged the guy, but the toll booth operators had been feeding the cat and claimed it as their pet. Well, to me, it was just a feral cat doing what feral cats do. So, the guy's in jail for shooting a pest. To me, this is absolutely STUPID, RIDICULOUS, MORONIC! I wouldn't have shot the cat, care less if he wants to eat. And, cats eat what they kill, don't just kill to be killin' like dogs will do. But, hell, it was a pest, a friggin' feral cat! Had it been a coyote, no problem! :rolleyes: What the hell is the difference in a coyote and a feral cat? They both kill to eat! Yet, people kill coyotes on sight and cats are sanctified or something.

Yeah, you shoot or kill or harm or turn your dogs loose on my cats, well, you got what's comin' to you, but they are my property and they have their shots and they're no threat to the world and they're beneficial to me. A cat in the wild? Well, even if the toll booth operators were feeding it, is it really a pet? Did they get it shots and get it neutered? Do they have an investment in the cat? Probably not.

I'm wondering how that one's going to turn out. I think it's stupid to waste jail space on such a case, though. You're locking up a bird watcher for shooting a cat and there are illegal aliens that get a free pass. I guess the fact that they are illegal isn't grounds for arrest and deportment?

You know, when I was a kid, I brought home a yellow lab cross a guy had given me. We lived out in the country and he stayed in the yard, but he got to running down the road and killing the neighbor's chickens. The neighbor called the old man, the old man took the dog out back and shot him right then and there. Hey, can't have a chicken killer hangin' around. Now days, he'd gotten 30 days in the electric chair, I guess.

This country has totally lost its priorities.

[Richmond]

I usually try to avoid the threads about shooting dogs and cats - still, if you want to argue the law, here is some assistance - charts and graphs showing the current state of the law in all 50 states.

http://www.hsus.org/web-files/PDF/state_cruelty_chart.pdf

http://www.hsus.org/web-files/PDF/felonycruelty_map.pdf

Currently, 43 states have felony level statutes in place. Nothing BS or straw man about that. Of course, there are situations which make killing an animal non-criminal: active threat; harassing livestock, threatening domestic or, in many states, game animals.

Since this is a firearms board - remember the simple formula: felony conviction = ban on possessing firearms.

El Tejon's original post shows a sad and predictable outcome - search the countless dog shooting posts here and see the countless warnings about safety, wrongful injury/death liability, etc.

[rust collector]

without thinking carefully of the consequences.

Point well taken. Thanks for the reminder.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Shooting isn't always the answer. Sometimes a baseball bat or a swift kick are all that's needed. A small dog can probably be handled quite decisively with something less than firearms.

If there is an unwanted shih-tzu coming near me, a non-violent shove from my foot will be the first thing I do. After that, a good kick.

Listen, I've really got no feelings about dogs in any direction. I know some people get really worked up about them, and think that the rest of us should bend over backwards to accommodate their dogs. Well I won't. If someone's animal comes in my yard, it's owner better be right behind it trying to restrain it with physical force. Coaxing it with some "come here" nonsense isn't gonna cut it. Now that's no excuse to fire a weapon at it unless it's actually being threatening.

In the story cited by the OP, both wrong attitude were present. The shooter, acted in a criminal manner and should be dealt with accordingly. At the same time, it's obvious that the dog owner has had past trouble restraining her property. The dog owner should have received a fine/ticket for the "digging up a cat" incident, and maybe had their animal taken from their custody.

There always seems to be 2 far side to this debate. One side has a "I'll gun down any dog that comes on my property" attitude. And the other side has a "Just let the dog do what it wants, isn't it so cute, dogs can do no wrong" attitude. Both are wrong. reality is somewhere in between. There better be some lives at stake for you to pull a gun on anyone or anything. But at the same time, keep your property off of my property. It's not hard, and I don't care how cute you think your dog is. I don't want to deal with it. Ever.

[MCgunner]

I killed three hogs in a trap the other day with a .38 snub. There were no lives at stake, but the pork steaks are good. If it keeps up in this country, the cry baby animal rights crowd will have this a felony, too. You won't be able to eat the rabbit, just the rabbit food, if they get their way, ultimately. That is the agenda, never forget that. It is political and their whole argument is based on emotion, not logic, as always. Personally, I hate tofu...:barf:

[bogie]

Oh yeah... I've _also_ run up against a dog pack... In midtown St. Louis. Freaky as hell, about 2:00 in the morning coming back from work... I noticed one out of the corner of my eye, turned around, and the dang things were stalking me... Pocketknife came out and I maintained eye contact and figured I'd gut at least one or two before they got me, and backed about a half a block to my apartment building's front door.

If I'd had a gun on me (pre-ccw days), it would have been out...

[XavierBreath]

I think the issue here is not one of shooting dogs.

The issue is killing human beings who are trying to coax the said critter from your property.

Rule Four: Be sure of your target and what is behind it.

It is not uncommon for a person to claim a ricochet in an attempt to reduce liability after firing a handgun. It's just like saying "It just went off!" or "I didn't know it was loaded!"

357 magnum rounds tend to penetrate dirt. They also tend to penetrate plastic fences.

Every bullet fired from your gun has a lawyer attached to it.

If this thread turns nasty, it will be closed.

It's getting to where shooting at dogs might be added to the list of instantly closed subjects. That would be a shame.

[sixgunner455]

Good grief. My neighbor has two shih tzus. The littler one was getting out of the back yard for a while, till he fixed the little tiny gap at the bottom of the fence. Friendly, sorta cute little buggers, never a problem to go pick him up and deliver him back to daddy at the front door.

I might be convinced to shoot a rabid shih tzu, but I can barely conceive of a situation that would get one rabid.

I would not shoot at one sniffing around in my yard from inside my house, certainly not while his owner was trying to corral him. This is just sick.

[bluestarlizzard]

i've come very close to shooting a dog (and so has my dad). we had a naighbor who let her two extreamly aggressive pits run lose and they had a history of attacking our dogs, the naighbors dogs and, once, trap the naighbors kid inside her house (it was tring to eat the little girl through the screen door).
there are a couple of reasons to shoot a dog, and they usually involve a dog attacking someone (human or animal). the shih tzu should not have been shot at in the first place and i hope that women stays in jail for a good while.
as for shih tzu being dangorous... well... i work with dogs and i will say that those little suckers have teeth and those teeth do hurt. however, their size makes them quite easy to manhandle, and a towel (so they can bite that instead of you) works wonders *grin*

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Now, I have absolutely no problem with people shooting feral cats! Does that make me a knuckle dragger? The cat was killing wildlife.

Justed wanted to point out/ask something...

Wouldn't a feral cat be wildlife? It's one wild animal killing an eating another wild animal. That's the way the world works. Seems to me the birdwatch should have sat back and let nature do it's thing.

[sm]

XB wrote:
It's getting to where shooting at dogs might be added to the list of instantly closed subjects. That would be a shame.

It already is a shame.
Current Mindset :

Pro Gun-
EVERYTHING is Cured by a Firearm in today's world, and on THR.

Anti Gun-
Firearms cause ALL of Societies Evils.

I am on record for wanting to add to instantly closed subjects "What Gun For____".

Then again WE are supposed to be Matriculating new folks as responsible firearm owners.

According to THR misson statements anyway.

El Tejon is an attorney, for those that do not know. One that happens to be Pro Gun, takes training, assists with training others and other responsible firearm owner behaviors.

Problem 2 is real. He deals with it everyday.

Teh Intraweb knows more about Problem 2 than someone that deals with it everyday?

Pat Rogers was informed by Teh Itraweb he did not know squat about ARs and carbine use.

Internet is Global, we have THR members all over the world, by the same token we have those from all over the world reading THR, and some are not Gun Friendly folks.

Look at them Americans. Texas Law applies to everything, shooting dawgs, cats, someone looks at your vehicle funny, does not serve your coffee hot, messes up your fast food order, farts in public, waves at you, does not wave at you...and you do not even have to live in Texas, just it seems Texas Law applies everywhere

No wonder folks abroad make fun of Americans, Anti's pull posts off Internet and use against us, and Fence Sitters "sit" as they don't know what to do!

Tell ya what; El Tejon needs to get his nephews some more ammunition.
I do not want some breathing my air.

Pop a dawg, El Tejon can use the money, and I don't have to deal with you around me.

That work?

It should, because you too can have your 15 minutes of fame and have your case posted on teh Intraweb.

WE can use that to matriculate those that do want to be responsible firearm owners.


One learns by mistakes- less expensive and painful if those mistakes are those of others.

[Millwright]

Never heard of that sort of goofy law in AK, but been a while since I've been there. Suspect more NS, though.

If your pet pride poochie gets into someone's sheep, kills some and gets shot, you'll not only lose the dog but have to pay for the sheep.....IOW you're responsible for damages caused by your livestock or pets....

While feral dog packs are less common than of yore, they still exist in some areas and shooting them is both legal and, IMO, sensible. IME not uncommon for someone's pet to run with those packs. Also foolish to shoot a dog not posing a threat, too......If only because most folks view fido as a 'member of the family' and a lot of henna-haired mavens have far more time/money to incite the community against you than you have resources to confound. >MW

[bluestarlizzard]

technically a feral animal is not the same as natural wildlife. feral animals can be very dangorouse (especially dogs and pigs) and feral cats do cause a lot of havok with wild bird populations. however that particular case should have been handled by animal control, not some idiot bird watcher.

[XLMiguel]

Wow. What a sad, sorry, sick story. Based on the available information, the woman shooter was grossly negligent and deserves to pay dearly. :fire:

While I'm sure the anti's will blame the gun, it is imperative that the blame be placed where it belongs - on criminally negligent idiot that decided to toss a round out the back window without properly identifying the target and whats beyond.:scrutiny:

[1911Tuner]

IME not uncommon for someone's pet to run with those packs.

For sure...and they don't have to be feral in order to do serious damage. We just had a bout locally with a pack of free-roaming pet dogs. Good dogs every one...until they decided to revert back to full-fledged pack mentality
during a normal outing. They killed 13 goats...a cow...did 2,000 dollars worth of damage to a quarterhorse at the stables just down the road...killed several pet cats...and a pregnant dog. Ripped the pups out of her and left'em. Awful.

Along about that time, my goofy Redtick got loose...again...despite my best efforts to keep her in check. She normally runs around visiting for a few hours and comes home when it starts to get dark and hungry for her supper. A good dog and overly friendly, if nothing else.

Just a big, ol' pet.

That day...it was different. I watched her gallop off to explore parts unknown...ignoring my calls...as usual. So, I decided to be patient and wait for her to come home. No sense in chasin' after her. She'll run blindly where rabbits fear to tread. About an hour after she lit out, I heard a single rifle shot about a half-mile away...right about where the man keeps what's left of his goat herd. I wondered...

Guess I was right. She never came home. I know that she wouldn't have hurt his goats...and she knew that she wouldn't hurt his goats...but the man who owned the goats didn't. I didn't even ask. Shoot/Shovel/Shut Up is in full effect here in Central Davidson County. I miss her.

[sm]

1911Tuner,

You speak true again!

Still YOU know about backstops, dawgs, critters , behaviors, habitat, and how to shoot, and other responsible firearm ownership qualities.

You are informed, have Investigated and Verified for yourself - not taken for granted teh Intraweb and its messages.

In the city, I have tossed a Honey Bun, to get a stray dawg to leave an area.
Situation handled, and later Animal Control came out and took the dawg into a shelter, now someone's pet.

Little feller just hungry, just dumped off, and wanted attention and just reverted to basic instincts...

[TallPine]

I think the issue here is not one of shooting dogs.

The issue is the original poster taking one criminally stupid and tragic event and blanketly applying it to everyone who ever shot stray dogs or coyotes or other vermin to protect their property. :rolleyes:

If you move out here and build your dream home in the pines and let your dog run all over the place, you have been warned that one day it will not come home. It's not me that will shoot every stray dog, it's my rancher neighbors that have a livelihood to protect.

[XavierBreath]

OK, I have taken the time to blog (http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2007/11/ricochet-lies.html) on this. There are some facts that seem to be over looked, even on this otherwise rational forum.

Nicole Stroud was in her grandmother's back yard, behind a plastic fence.

357 magnum bullets do not ricochet off the ground. They penetrate plastic fences just like they penetrate human bodies. The cartridge was designed to do so.

Neighbors claim (http://www.14wfie.com/global/story.asp?s=7401327&ClientType=Printable) Melinda Lindauer had a history of firing her handgun in her neighborhood.

Shih Tzu dogs are not the evil rabbit with sharp pointy teeth guarding the cave of Caerbannog (http://youtube.com/watch?v=s_sdOgHcOpM). The animal was not a threat unless you consider Shih Tzu poop to be lethal land mines.

Melinda Lindauer was charged with involuntary manslaughter and reckless homicide.

This was a bad shooting by a reckless individual. It is not defensible in any rational manner.

This was an appropriate arrest, and hopefully it will be an appropriate conviction.

Let's stay on point. This is a public forum, accessible to anyone. The issue is about firearms safety and accepting personal responsibility. Melinda Lindauer deserves our scorn, not a bunch of folks on the internet trying to justify her killing of Nicole Stroud.

[Master Blaster]

I dont know about the country, since I live in the burbs.
I do know that there are many complete idiots who go out and buy the bigest most dangerous dog they can find, fail to train or properly control it, confine it in a tiny yard and then act angry and surprised when it escapes and attacks somone walking a dog on a leash as the law around here requires.

I had this happen to me three times now. All at the same house. The first time it was a 120lb rotweiler that cleared a 4 foot fence and charged across the street after me and my dog.

The second was a couple months later when it charged out the front door.
The owner assured me he would keep her under control after that.
I didnt shoot the dog even though I was carring at the time, in fact I didn't even pull my firearm, and the owner was unaware I had a loaded G26.
I was able both times to back the dog off by yelling at it, and when it came too close to my dog wacking it in the head with my asp batton. Amazing how hard a rotweiller's head is, I hit it 4 times with all my might, hard enough to break a cinder block, and it hardly noticed till the 4th blow.

A year after these two incidents doggie bit a cyclist not as skilled as me in large dog conflict resolution, or canine psychology, and they had to get rid of her.

They now have two great danes, and yes they are still complete idiots. I avoid walking my dog anywhere near their house, because I am afraid I will be forced to shoot their stupid dogs to protect my litle dog, or my children.

The lady in this story is an idiot we are talking about a 4lb dust mop that is no danger to anyone, a super soaker would have been more than enough to do the job. I suspect she shot the neighbor on purpose.

[Justin]

This?

Again?!