[2dogs]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,75151,00.html

COOKEVILLE, Tennessee — A family has filed multiple complaints after police mistakenly pulled them over as robbery suspects, then shot and killed their dog as it bounded from the car.





A tape released by authorities Wednesday documents the incident, which began when a Tennessee state trooper and three Cookeville police cars pulled over James Smoak and his family as they drove home Jan. 1 from a vacation.

The trooper suspected the Smoaks' dark green station wagon was connected to a robbery, Tennessee Highway Patrol officials said.

Troopers ordered the family out of the car, and the video shows James and Pamela Smoak and their 17-year-old son, Brandon, obeying. They came out with their hands up, got down and were handcuffed.

About a minute after the traffic stop, one of the dogs — a bulldog-boxer mix named Patton — jumped from the car and raced toward Cookeville police officer Eric Hall, who was holding a shotgun. The tape shows that Hall stepped back and fired just before Patton reached him.

The dog appeared to be wagging its tail as it ran toward the officer, the tape shows.

Patton died from the shotgun blast. And as it turns out, the Smoaks had not committed a crime at all.

Police had suspected them based on a report of money flying from their car as it sped down Interstate 40. They later discovered Smoak had simply left his wallet on the car while pumping gas.

Smoak, of Saluda, North Carolina, declined comment Wednesday. He said he is pursuing legal action and has been advised not to discuss the case. The Smoaks have filed complaints with all agencies involved in the stop.

Hall, the officer who shot the dog, has contended he had no choice when the animal charged him.

He has been reassigned to administrative duties pending an independent review. But the Cookeville Police Department's internal investigation found that Hall did not use excessive force.

[dinosaur]

Not surprising.

[bedlamite]

All they had to do was close the car doors to contain the dog. I hope he takes them to the cleaners.

[Tamara]

If there's any justice, by the time this is over, it'll be "Smoakville" TN.

I think the CPD and the THP should have their nether regions sued off over the whole stop. If a tree removal service comes along and cuts down a tree or two on your property by mistake, they can't hide behind the "It was an honest mistake, we were only doing our jobs!" excuse, so why should Johnny Law be able to?

[2nd Amendment]

As one of those who has been condemning the cops in all this it may be surprising to hear me say this. I don't approve of the law suit(like what I approve of matters, I know, I know). If there was incompetence here, and I believe there was across the board, then those individuals need to be disciplined, terminated and maybe, if the cop did grin afterwards, prosecuted. But there's no reason the local citizens should have to pay out for this stupidity.

The Smoaks deserve a new dog or financial compensation for the dogs value. They deserve to see those who engaged in this stupidity dealt with. They don't deserve a pocket full of money which will come from the taxpayers and not the offenders. Even if there is no large financial settlement the court costs and attorneys fees still come our of the taxpayers pocket and they are in bad enough shape just having cops like these to deal with every day.

[cobb]

The LEO screwed up big time in this one.

[SADshooter]

2nd Amendment:

In principle I agree with you. The problem is a culture in which governmental bureaucracies don't do unilateral disciplinary action except under fear of getting hit where it hurts. And, like most of us, that's typically the pocketbook.

Unfortunately, we've painted ourselves into a corner where a lawsuit may be a citizen's only practical recourse for leveraging all the other goals you describe.

[Beren]

It's a dog. Not a human.

It's criminal negligence that resulted in the unnecessary destruction of an irreplacable asset. The local PD and the THP both share blame, but to what degree is up to a jury to decide. Damages due? Most certainly.

[ojibweindian]

It's not about the damn dog, it's about the treatment of innocents as criminals before any real facts became evident. How would you like to go through a s**t pile like this for the honest screw-up of leaving your wallet on the hood of your car?

You just don't get it, do you? Go back to sleep.

[Beren]

If if was a Pit Bull, and it managed to get it's jaws around the Officer's neck?

Then the idiot officer who left the door open despite /repeated/ requests to close it would still be partially to blame.

[JMLV]

It was a bulldog. a short swat bulldog and no real danger to anybody(well he might drool on you) these folks pet was murdered pure and simple by an incompetant powermad LEO. Who had the nerve to grin happily after the carnage.
If he and the others were to get their come upence with the legal action I would agree with 2nd, but we know they never will without that sword hanging over the head of the gov't. they will just deney any wrong doing until a jury awards the smokes a vast amount of money.
All the officers involved in this fisaco should be suspended for 7 days at least including the dispacher who upgraded the info to a more serious crime. the shooter should lose his job period and have to make restititon for 3 times the price of a new bulldog puppy.(in some states if your dog damages someone and you are found neglagent the award is trippled.)

[Tamara]

If if was a Pit Bull, and it managed to get it's jaws around the Officer's neck?

WTH?

What if the Smoaks all had machine guns and came out shooting?

What if they were Russian spies and the Taurus wagon was really a T-72?

What if my grandmother had wheels?

[Tamara]

The point, which you seem to be missing, is that it was not a pit bull and it did not have its jaws around the officer's neck, so why even ask that question?

I don't care if it was a dog, a barbie doll or the back window of the Taurus wagon that got blown away, the fact is that an officer, for no really good reason, on a stop that was a screw-up from the start, destroyed a citizen's property.

...Law Enforcement Officers are involved in a war on crime. The dog would be collateral damage.

If that is your opinion, I sincerely hope that you are not an LEO. Where the civil rights of the citizens that cops are supposed to be serving and protecting are concerned, there is no room for "collateral damage". :fire:

[ojibweindian]

"Ifs" count for nothing. The fact is the Smoak family were aggregiously abused by cops who had faulty information. What ever happened to verifying assertions before assuming them as fact?

Was the vehicle doing 110MPH? Nope. Did the occupants of the car (the Smoaks) look like they were car-jackers or kidnappers? Again, nope. How difficult would it have been for the cops to merely pull the car over, verify that nothing was going on, inform Mr. Smoak that his wallet flew off the hood of his car, and send him and his family on his merry way? Not very.

However, several testosterone laden (insert choice of expletives) decided to play Gestappo. Hope I never find myself in the same set of circumstances the Smoak family became involved in. But, given the propensity for people to willingly bend over and lose their rights for the "protective services" of the para-military police Gestappo, I am sure something like this will eventually happen to me.

[ojibweindian]

Can't wait till you have some uninvited guests performing a no-knock at your residence. After your house is screwed, your wife and kids slapped in cuffs and thrown around like rags, your rights violated, and then the "good-guys" tell you "oops, our bad. tough s***." let me know what you think.

[2nd Amendment]

Let it go? That would be best I suppose, since you have made no rational argument.

Reason to believe? No, they had a screw up from moment one. Thing is that at any point it could have been defused by a simple application of common sense. Most of the notoriety could have been prevented by simply closing the soors. The damage could have been prevented by simply kicking the stubby little mutt in the head if he bothered the "officer" that much.

Instead a cowboy with incorrect data and no apparent common sense decided to pull the trigger on a 12ga in a public area with lots of people around to kill an animal that couldn't have inflicted any damage if it had been attacking. A bulldog for crying out loud. I'd be more afraid of my neighbors cat! Jeez.

[KMKeller]

New Leaf,
They stopped a car they had reason to believe was involved in an armed robbery.
Where does it say that there was any evidence of any robbery being committed much less an armed robbery? Was a robbery called in? Was there a description of the perpetrators and the getaway car that could honestly be mistaken for the Smoaks and their station wagon? There was no mention of a crime having been committed and no reports of a robbery having been committed. The only thing reported was that a car was driving fast and that money came flying off of it. Is that evidence of a robbery and demanding of a felony stop?

Somewhere along the way, somebody screwed up bigtime. Somewhere in the communications channels, a call for a car with money coming off of it became an armed robbery. Who made that determination?

New Leaf = Eric Hall?

[Tamara]

You would have anarchy.

Well, er, yes (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/neill1.html), as a matter of fact.

[2nd Amendment]

At this stage Anarchy might well be preferrable.

Good riddance.

[Fair 'n Square]

new leaf,
No, the cops should not be our enemy. They should be the friends of the good guys. I'm not a LEO, but you could use up your fingers and a few toes counting my good friends who are. We've gone shooting together, done social and religious things together, and talked ad infinitum about their jobs.

So I'm not knocking LEO's in general, but bad mistakes were made here, and not just by the LEO's on the scene.

With authority comes responsibility. The end result was that these "friendly police officers" were enemies to good people. They should be held accountable for that.

[triggertime]

"I would call the dog shooting unfortunate, but in case some of you haven't figured it out, Law Enforcement Officers are involved in a war on crime. The dog would be collateral damage."

Don't be so quick to judge, new leaf. Most of us have already figured out that more often than not, some law enforcement officers aren't in their line of work primarily to fight the 'war on crime' per se, but rather to get away with demeaning the common man through strongarm tactics to feed their egotist attitudes fueled by their own inherent psychological problems.

I suppose that may offend some law enforcement officers on this board, but after all, this is the high road and the truth does tend to hurt a little.

And before someone misinterprets what I've just said and paints me as being anti-cop, I am not anti-cop, I am anti-jackbooted-thug-cop. There's a difference. ;)

[ojibweindian]

new leaf.

You might call it "anarchy"; I call it freedom. That and the return to the principles enumerated in the Bill of Rights.

To read your responses, it would seem that you do not hold them in great esteem. You would rather have no freedom in exchange for a pathetic "feeling" of security that, in reality, never existed in the first place.

Goodbye to you, too.

[Gila Jorge]

I think the Smoakes are right to sue the bejabbers out of these ignorang jack boots who blew away their family dog when they had ol=nly to close the frigging door as requested. Hope they end up owning the whole county if not the state.

[Mike Irwin]

"It's a dog, not a human."

You're right. Most dogs I know are vastly superior to humans.

[mtnbkr]

I saw the video this morning on Good Morning America. They also interviewed the Smoakes (Father, Mother, and Oldest Son). Those cops were idiots. They deserve whatever comes to them. If it were my decision, they would never work LE again and the shooter would go to prison. :cuss: :cuss: :cuss:

Thin blue line my ***. They are lawless thugs, plain and simple.

Chris

[444]

Governor:
I enjoy travel, and when traveling I usually take my dog. He is a part of the family and I enjoy his company. A couple times a year, I will drive to Mexico for a long weekend. One thing I don't do however is to take my dog into Mexico. The reason is that throughout Mexico there are roadblocks set up, and manned by young soliders. I don't know, but from their appearence and reputation they seem poorly trained. I have always worried that if they stopped my car and I had to get out for a search, my dog might try to defend me or my vehicle and would be shot by a trigger happy, poorly trained, third world soldier. I see now that Tennessee is another third world country that I need to avoid. I sincerely hope that tourists from all over the country take heed and avoid your state like the plague.

Ken Gilcrest
Pahrump, NV

[spacemanspiff]

going into a situation without getting all the info from dispatchers is NOT 'just doing their job'.
JBT deserves the lawsuit.

[J Miller]

I said my piece about this issue on on of the other threads.
But thanks to Tamara's nice link defining anarchist I am feel better. I am one.
I have always believed that the government could do nothing for me that couldn't be done better by private people.

I am glad that the Smoakes have filed suits against all involved. This abuse of police power is out of hand, and since there will never be any criminal charges for what was done, the suit is the only way they have to get justice done. I hope they win big.

[Mike Irwin]

"It was a DOG. NOT A HUMAN BEING."

I certainly haven't changed my position.

The lowest cur is more likable, and responsible, than most humans.

[M2HMGHB]

please dont feed the troll people.

[spacemanspiff]

new leaf, remember the thread recently about felines, and how the members here posted what they would do if someone used deadly force on thier kitties for pooping in thier flower beds and whatnot?

most people view pets as family. you should definitely have expected people to vehemently defend the smoakes and empathize with the loss of thier dog.

however, just like you have pointed out that we DONT know all the facts, just what has been reported in the news and what the smoakes have had to say about it, we DONT know that the officers were in the right, do we?

dont you think that if the dog-killing officer wasnt alleged to have appeared 'gleeful' at his kill, that people wouldnt be demonizing this cop? i think everyone has a biased opinion of it to begin with, seeing how the assumption and allegations are that the officer in question acted in an unprofessional manner.


not to mention the entire procedure was incorrectly carried out. a suspicion of robbery? without a complaint from a victim? only someone who *thought* it might have been a robber fleeing the scene of the crime? did the smoakes do anything wrong? was there evidence that justified the felony stop? i think not.

[Zander]

You attack the hell out of me because I stated my opinion.You aren't being attacked. Your opinion, however, is being challenged...strongly, in fact.

I see nothing wrong with the process...it's the nature of this board and there is nothing unfair about it.

My opinion, of course...

For those of you who prefer anarchy, you must believe that we need no regulatory agencies whatsoever.With all due respect, that's a generalization based on an assumption that you aren't qualified to make.

Nevertheless, welcome to the board! Hope you'll stick around and continue your offerings.

[2nd Amendment]

Nope, don't know a thing about dogs. I'm not eternally surrounded by Pitbulls and Dobermans. I didn't grow up around idiot bird dogs of assorted breeds and semi-paranoid German Shepherds. I wasn't covered in dog spit last week by two pissed of pitts who decided to duke it out in a friends study.

Gee, you're right, I actually never have had a dog of my own, so I don't know a thing. After years of other peoples dogs I am not still uneasy around them and so I never specifically learned how to deal with them to lessen my unease. Yep.

Boxer, bulldog, chow...kick in the head. Works every single time.

[spacemanspiff]

dogs aren't very good at discussions
i'd have to disagree...the last samoyed husky my boss had was quite a conversationalist. she'd come in every morning with her master and greet everyone hello with that samoyed growl/howl and then go to everyone and have a few words individually, to see if they wanted to share any tidbits of their breakfast with her.

now his new samoyed puppy just barks to get attention.

[igor]

new leaf, there is a profound difference between being attacked for stating your opinion and being countered in a debate.

Debating carries the prerequisite of gathering all available facts and basing one's arguments on them. You lack in your homework on several accounts and are not being particularly polite in throwing around assumptions off your head and then getting PO'd when debunked.

If you're just trolling, here I went, hook-line-sinker :banghead: . If you're looking to get involved in a reasonable exchange of ideas, hang around and learn. The culture in this board is most educating (form, not imposed content ;) ) if one's open for dialogue as opposed to two-to-n-way monologue.

[DeltaElite]

I too like dogs better than most humans, except for strippers.
Strippers are better than dogs anyday. :what:

[Mike Irwin]

"A couple big differences.....dogs aren't very good at discussions , and they aren't very good at golf."

Quite frankly, neither are most people, myself included.

It's not that I don't dislike humans that much. It's that I strongly disagree with the high moral and social pedastle on which we've unilaterally put ourselves.

From where I'm standing, it's largely not deserved.

[rock jock]

I too like dogs better than most humans, except for strippers.
I don't see much difference.

[spacemanspiff]

dogs only want their belly rubbed or behind their ears scratched.
strippers want all the george washingtons in your wallet and whatever you can put on your credit card.


dogs are far cheaper to thrill than strippers are, trust me, i know.

[rock jock]

new leaf,

The success of our country has been due to the ability of people to apply reasonable standards for the limits of govt. within Constitutional bounds Some folks on this board want anarchy; most (including myself) recognize this goal as idealistic and naive. We simply want the govt. (and LE as an extension) to recognize their proper role in society - as a protector of rights and public servants. This incident shows the excesses of an all-powerful police state. It is not reasonable by an stretch of the imagination.

[Edward429451]

Newleaf when I first started posting on this board (TFL), and posted stuff without thinking it through enough, I kind of thought I was being 'attacked' also. Then after thinking it through and rereading the posts, with a little time I realized that these people were not attacking me but setting me straight. They're a lot of very intelligent people here and routinely talk at a level that I was not used to thinking in. Displacing my emotion I read this stuff almost like a literary work. Like reading philosophy.

Truth hurts. Welcome to the next level. Hope you stick around. Takes a bigger man to stay, discuss and learn than to run.

'Preciate all you intelligent peoples patience with my earlier juvenile rantings...:o I'm still learning!!!!

[Lone_Gunman]

New Leaf,

so we can better understand your perspective, are you a law enforcement officer?

[hammer4nc]

Welcome to the board, newleaf...let's turn one over by hearing your positive solution to this problem. Not the legal problem, so much as the rather huge public relations problem this has created for Cookeville and THP.

Roleplay: OK, 3-2-1... newleaf is on "Good Morning America"... addressing the American people, who just witnessed a pet's head blown off while drinking their morning coffee... You are responsible for pulling the leo's chestnuts out of the fire.

PS I don't think "its a dog, not a human" is going to go over too well, but if that's your opinion, you're entitled to it.

The above is not an attack, just an attempt to illuminate what should be the issues associated with this incident (just my opinion).

[beemerb]

I wached the tape a little while ago. One dog jumping out of a car with tail wagging looking to get a ear scratched or a belly rub.Maybe a little food handout.That was so clear on the tape everone should be able to see it.
I agree that a lawsuit takes money out of the taxpayers pockets.Thats bad so why not keep the cop who shot the dog on the payrole as say animal control officer? And half his wages go to paying off the money awarded in the lawsuit.
I think could be a fair solution for all.By the way he can't carry a gun.
Bob

[TheeBadOne]

I agree. We tend to go all out emotionally for animals. I think perhaps it's the human tendency to want help things lesser than ourselfs. In any event, here's a link to an article that shows it better than I ever could. Anyone remember the Fluffy dog that was thrown into traffic and run over during a road rage incident in CA? The hunt for the "killer of fluffy" raised more media attention and MONEY than any missing/endangered/killed CHILD, ever! Almost $120,000, yes, one hundred twenty thousand dollars, raised to in Fluffy's memory!

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/GoodMorningAmerica/GMA010416Road_Rage_Dog.html

[riverdog]

I for one feel that if one of the Smoak family needed to be sacrificed, then General Patton was the preferred option; however, even his canine life deserved better than what he got. The statement that "it's only a dog" is pretty lame when it was a major LE mistake that caused that death.

Personally, I would like to see the price of boxer-bulldog mixes to get real expensive, not because the Smoaks deserve to get rich, but because LE needs to realize that wasn't "only a dog". It was someone's personal property that was destroyed by unnecessary and negligent LE action. While I see Officer Hall as a hapless triggerman, there was plenty of other negligent LE action that precipitated this event.

[Cal4D4]

People were humiliated and degraded unfairly as "collateral damage" in the war on crime. Their family pet's lifespan was shortened dramatically and wrongly by the same failure of procedure that caused the stop. If there was no loss of a life, everything else can be solved by monetary damage. A valued pet died. Money can't replace this. They will get bundles, but this is handled by the insurance carrier. We will all ultimately pay for this. The most that will happen to any of the officers is job loss or maybe a bad reprimand. BFD. Insurance carrier may refuse coverage unless better training standards are met. Good. The officers involved will not feel any real grief.

I propose an act of contrition from all involved on the scene and perhaps the captain or wherever "the buck stops". Ritual held before the entire force and Smoakes if they wish. Pinky finger, sushi board and sharp knife. Simple and effective. Does not impact the employability or any facet of the officers life. Reinforces the lesson that needs to be learned. All will forever be very careful about the caliber of people they work with, as well as their future actions. They can carry a tiny badge of shame for the rest of their careers.

It's only a dog, so very true.
IT'S ONLY YOUR PINKY!

[hammer4nc]

...Diane Sawyer and Charlie Gibson are so throoughly stunned at newleaf's interview, they are momentarily at a loss for words..."Well, I'm sure we'll be hearing MUCH MORE about that story, Diane", is all Charlie can muster, as they fade to commercial. Offline, the news producer books 5 more reporters to Cookeville to cover the followon story, sensing that the incident is FAR from over...

[Phyphor]

I think someone's been watching too much "Little Brother" (a Japanese Yakuza-comes-to-USA movie)
:D

But in any case, what's with the insults directed towards the forum? People post their own opinions and ideas, and suddenly it's the forum's fault?

Just because people here don't agree with you is no reason to get nasty about it. If people here are actually attacking you, then feel free to report the guilty parties, don't blame the entire forum for it.

[wingman]

poorly trained, third world soldier."


Lots of those running around now, check
our airports.:D

No reason to shoot the pooch in this case, he was wagging his tail as he hit the ground from the tape I seen.
Judgement/common sense has left the
room in our country, shame.

[PATH]

I believe we should wait for the results of the investigation into this affair. It is tragic that the officers involved did not just close the doors to the car. Honestly, I don't know if I would have shot or not if I were in that situation. In hindsight I would not have. The officer had no such chance to see in hindsight. It is a tragic blunder for all involved.

I believe that the Smoaks will win a very large monetary settlement and law enforcement will take a black eye. Any way you look at it there are no winners.

New Leaf, I think you will find some very strong opinions here. Please do not take any discussion personally. It is, to the best of my knowledge and experience, very unlikely that anyone here has a personal animus against you.

That is my .02 cents worth.

[Cal4D4]

new leaf...

Ridiculous or not. I certainly don't feel a human life is due over this and I don't think money is the answer. This could be treated like a class action against every unexcusable police action and award them millions. I find that wrong. Does nothing to make officers more respectful of human rights. If it only caused them dirty knees and humiliation, a few hundred thou would probably make them smile. They were handed a plateful of grief by the irresponsible acts of those officers. Didn't respect their requests to close door. Nancied out and blasted a little dog. What act of contrition would you find adequate? Give it a little deeper thought. This would impact law enforcement everywhere. Would you suit up and serve a warrant with someone who carried that badge of shame? Give me an alternative that would actually be meaningful to reverse the low esteem SOME law enforcement holds for those they serve.

[OKC .45 ACP]

Everyone's entitled to an opinion. Doesn't mean we have to agree with it.

I am a friend to LEOs in my area. They are not jack-booted thugs. They are friends. Everyone of them that has seen that video say one thing--that was a MAJOR SCREW UP. That officer shouldn't be a mall security guard. He's a major malfunction.

The video speaks for itself. The police were warned about the open door, the dog was a bull dog that would have needed to be lifted to bite the officer on the neck, and it was wagging its tail and was non-aggressive right up to the minute it got plugged.

I'm not a dog person, but all living animals deserve better than what that bulldog got. That officer is sick. He needs to be fired, fined, and the entire THP sued for that miscarriage of justice.

That's my opinion, and I'm entitled to it just as you are to yours.

Sincerely,

OKC

[xjer]

"its only a dog"

Its only a dog unless its yours.

The cops screwed up and their employer should have to pay.

Whats the answer? When you have a limited number of
people to hire from and you need X amout of officers on the
street. Your budget only allows an average wage at best and only so much training.

Its hard to fire someone if their Union goes to bat for them. Or you dont fire them because you have to have X amount of warm bodys in uniform and the next in line is less qualified than what you have. Or your racial mix will be off.

Everyone has had bad service at (fill in the blank).
When you throw in a badge it just makes it a 1000 times worse.
It may seem like a lot of LEO's are out of control or on a power trip. Percentage wise I bet the screw ups are pretty low compare
to doing it the right way.
So, Whats the answer?





"Who is John Galt"

[Lone_Gunman]

The cops involved with this were in the wrong.

I am not sure that a big payoff to the family is the right solution though. Taxpayers end up paying the bill, and lawyers take half.

I think a better punishment would be for the cops to be fired, and then lined up on primetime, and individually jack-slapped on national television by each member of the Smoak family.

[Goaltender66]

To echo a point from another thread:

Sure. It was only a dog.

So if ever a police K-9 dog slips off his leash and comes bounding up to me looking for a head pat, I guess I'll be justified in drawing and shooting his head off. After all, that K-9 is only a dog, right?

Goalie

[Lone_Gunman]

New Leaf,

So are you saying a police dog is equivalent to a human police officer?

Seems like you have kind of flip-flopped. A few posts back you were saying "its just a dog, not a person"?

[Goaltender66]

How can one particular dog be considered a police officer on one hand (ie have value), but in another setting that same dog would be simply considered property on the other? Is it because the family dog is owned by a commoner, while the K-9 is owned by the "elite?" Again, the question stands. How can you be comfortable with one circumstance and condemn the other?

Seems to me there's quite a bit of disconnect here. I think it goes a long way in explaining new leaf's perspective.

Goalie

[ojibweindian]

It's not about the dog, it's about a lack of common sense and the violation of the Smoak's civil rights. It would have been very easy for the police in this matter to simply verify that the occupants of the car were the Smoaks, instead of felons. A few simple questions asked by the police would have cleared the whole thing up. Rather than do that, the cops decided to play Rambo.

Say what you will, but this is the paragon of crummy police work.

[riverdog]

Why do you keep referring to general Patton as "just a dog" -- because he isn't yours or because he wasn't human? Both? We know he wasn't human, but that didn't make him unworthy. I take it you never had a dog when you were a kid. Otherwise maybe you'd feel a little compassion and stop with the "just a dog" schpiel. The dog's death could have been prevented were it not for a number of LE errors that led to his death.

Those other errors are what haven't been adequately addressed. How did the BOLO turn into a felony stop? Who made that decision? Why was the 911 call taken at face value without corroberation? Why wasn't more common sense exhibited by the THP at the scene? Why didn't they close the door after clearing the car?

[ojibweindian]

New leaf, I do get the impression that because this doesn't personally and directly affect you, it means very little.

A family's civil rights were violated because some cops were either too stupid or lazy to verify what was actually going on. The behavior of the police in this matter, to me, is serious cause for alarm.

[riverdog]

Turn a K-9 loose on an innocent civilian who hasn't done anything wrong and see how far that goes when you take him to court for rightfully defending his life by killing the (just a) dog.

[Lone_Gunman]

ojibweindian,

You are correct.

It doesnt so much matter that a dog was shot. The police destroyed private property for no reason. The fact that it was a dog makes it play better on the news, and makes it more shocking.

[ojibweindian]

Lone_gunman

You are exactly right. But there is more to it than the issue of private property. What really bugs me is the callous, violent behavior of police officers towards innocent people. This incident, and the one in Detroit, quite possibly portends the future relationship between law enforcement and the citizenry.

[ojibweindian]

new leaf

And you know nothing about me either. It's rather easy for you to sit back and call this an "unfortunate incident". However, you weren't affected by it. Your wife and son were not placed in handcuffs and treated like felons because you left your wallet on the roof of a car.

But hey, no big deal, it wasn't your family, so that makes it okay.

[Lone_Gunman]

ojibweindian,

Maybe you should give new leaf a break; he seems to be the kind of guy who really wouldnt mind having the civil rights of his family violated, while watching his dog's brains splatter all over the side of the family station wagon.

[ojibweindian]

Lone_Gunman

:D

[Lone_Gunman]

The country was founded by anti-government zealots, new leaf.

[riverdog]

Actually, rather than anti-government, I've always been part of the government and that's why I feel it necessary to make the point that the actions in Tennessee are unacceptable. I vote for a higher standard. It really isn't about the dog at all. It's the actions that culminated in the dogs death followed by the callous "just a dog" comments. It wasn't just a dog, it was the final chapter in a book on how to screw up.

[Lone_Gunman]

sigh...

thats it for me.

i just cant take it anymore.

[ojibweindian]

new_leaf.

Can you not put yourself into the shoes of Mr. Smoak? Would you be so ready to condone the actions of the police if this happened to you? You seem just as bad as you say I am in the blind acceptance that the police acted appropriately.

And what is wrong with questioning the acts of our government. As Bruce Springsteen said, blind faith in your leaders can get you killed.

[Goaltender66]

Well, if my government makes a habit of shackling innocent people on the uncorroborated say-so of an anonymous 911 caller, while its apologists not only insist nothing is wrong with it but demean those who have honest opinions to the contrary, then where do I sign up to become an anti-government zealot?

I'm not anti-government. I'm anti-BAD-government. And nothing I saw on that video escapes the "bad" clause.

Goalie

[ojibweindian]

You don't have to sign up, just register as a Libertarian!:D

[Zander]

When you get pulled over by the police, keep control of your dog. I don't want to seem rude, but which of the facts are you willing to jettison to make your point?

How, exactly, would you expect the family, victims of an unwarranted "felony stop", to do more than they did while on their knees and handcuffed?

The tape clearly reveals their repeated requests to the officers on scene to CLOSE THE DOOR of their car so that the dog would not be allowed to EXIT THE VEHICLE and be subject to the dangers of the situation. I, like them, wouldn't want my dog to be wandering around a major interstate, much less be slaughtered by a panicked local LEO who HAD NO BUSINESS ON THE SCENE!

In spite of their compliance, the Smoak's pleas were ignored...the dog exited the vehicle [after remaining patiently in the car for a commendable period of time] and was shot dead by someone who turned a terrible mistake into a tragedy.

What, exactly, do you not understand/accept about the facts?

[GregoryTech]

As a non-LEO, I saw the video (online) and the shoot looks good.

I question the reason for the stop, especially as a felony stop. I also place some "blame" on the guys who didn't close the car door, but in the end a dog advanced on the cop.

It's a sad, unfortunate situation, that could have been handled much better, but I have no problem with the shoot under the conditions that were presented to the cop who shot the dog at that instant.

[ojibweindian]

Gregory

It's not about the dog. It's about being treated like a felon for the crummy mistake of leaving one's wallet on the roof of a car. It's about the cops not using a modicum of common sense and checking the validity of the cell phone call.

The whole thing could have easily been avoided by pulling the Smoak's over and politely asking a few questions to clear up everything.

However, testosterone got in the way.

[ojibweindian]

new leaf

Ouch, that hurts.

Read my earlier posts to find out what my beef is.

[GregoryTech]

Gregory

It's not about the dog. It's about being treated like a felon for the crummy mistake of leaving one's wallet on the roof of a car. It's about the cops not using a modicum of common sense and checking the validity of the cell phone call.

The whole thing could have easily been avoided by pulling the Smoak's over and politely asking a few questions to clear up everything.

However, testosterone got in the way.

I don't disagree with that, but did you hear the 911 call? The woman reported that a car was speeding at 110 miles an hour with money flying out of it. So the question to me now becomes, what happened when the cops initiated the stop. Was the car traveling over a 100 miles an hour? Did they try to outrun (or going over 100 appear to be trying to outrun) to police? We don't know any of these things. And if so, perhaps it changed what could have been an investigative stop into a full felony stop.

That said, I still think it was probably a "bad" stop, and I agree with your point. But the cop that shot the dog was called in to assist another department on a felony stop and acted in a manner consistent with that knowledge, and I think not unethically given the situation as it unfolded.

[ojibweindian]

The lady did not have a radar gun, so her estimation of speed is a WAG. Unless, of course, she was traveling at close to 110MPH herself. Quite unlikely.

As I have said before, all of this could have easily been avoided by simply asking a few questions, not by the Gestappo-like behavior of the police.

[Goaltender66]

I think I figured out the source of new leaf's disconnect:
To cry more over an animal's death than a human is perverse.
Where in this thread are we crying more over the death of an animal than a human? Well, I sure don't see anything to that effect, mainly because a human didn't die in this scenario (despite the apparent best efforts of Officer Hill...notice his actions after he bravely shot Patton and note where his finger is).

The only explanation is that new leaf is talking about a different situation than the rest of us.

Goalie

[Preacherman]

Fellow High Roadsters, we can argue this point until the cows come home (hopefully without getting shot!). Unfortunately, we simply don't have all the evidence available to us - "trial by media" is notoriously inaccurate. I think in the interests of civility, mutual tolerance and a wish to avoid inflaming passions any further, we'll leave this discussion alone for now, and watch further developments in the courts, where they belong.

This thread is therefore closed.