[Jim March]

I have a theory that the ability to shoot without sights, without even lining the gun up at eye level, is somehow tied to the ability to freehand sketch.

If I'm right, some new shooters will know ahead of time whether or not they should get serious about playing with point shooting.

We know that some people can point-shoot. But we also have people like Cooper advocating sighted fire as the sole training regimen, to increase overall hit rates across entire police departments and the like.

I suspect that both camps are right, in that there are people who were just "born to point shoot well" at short fast ranges at least, and some who should not under any circumstances try. Even with a lot of training to compensate, these latter folks will "fall apart" in a real fight (per Cooper et al). I consider myself in this latter group - and I also can't freehand draw. The natural point shooters I've met *can* - one was a published cartoonist.

So please, take the poll - EVERYbody can answer this question. If everybody reading this does so, we'll have moderately scientific data on the subject.

NOTE: "a "flash sight picture" is different - this is when the gun is brought to eye level, but the gun itself (typically an auto) is used as a single large crude (but fast) sight. This is NOT what I'm talking about for purposes of this poll.

[Hkmp5sd]

Point-shoot reasonably well - Freehand sketch at artist level.

[BryanP]

Interesting idea. I can't point shoot worth diddly - heck, I'm not really all that great a shot with sites, mediocre at best, and I can't draw worth a dang either.

[firestar]

I have always been pretty decent at point shooting but I can't free hand sketch at all!

I can't draw, paint and I have bad handwriting but I have better than average hand/eye coordination. I am good at video games, shooting, most sports, foosball, pinball, ping pong, and dealing with delicate intricate things.

Very interesting question!

[Ewok_Guy]

I think you may be onto something here, Jim.

I've done both reasonable well since I was a young lad.

[DMK]

Hmm, both are left brain skills?

I took a sketch class in college. I remember the instructor telling us not to look at the paper when we drew, to look at the object instead. However, I never did well in that class. I do point shoot reasonably better than I can sketch.

[Standing Wolf]

Speaking strictly as an artist: it's not about eye-hand coordination, but visualization.

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's All-

Hey Jim I can point shoot reasonably well;
but I could not freehand sketch to save my life!:uhoh: :D

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[Blackhawk]

Scientific...? Well..... :rolleyes:

I can point shoot well -- depending on the gun. If it's one I naturally point well with, I point shoot well with it. How do I determine if it points well for me? I point it at a target that's in my peripheral vision area with the gun way to my side and while looking to the side. Then, without moving the gun, I move my head to see where the sights are pointing. If they're on target, chances are very good that I will point shoot that gun well. Glocks don't point well for me, BTW.

I'm fairly good at freehand sketching mechanical and architectural subjects but I have to work at getting proportions of people, animals, etc., right. However, I'm sure that drafting and designing mechanical components has a lot to do with that.

[Edward429451]

I can point shoot reasonably well but couldn't freehand sketch to save my life.

[Preacherman]

Mike, you left out the most important question: can you point-shoot while free-hand sketching?

:neener: :D

[sm]

I can rub my belly and shoot at the same time--that count ? :D

I point shoot very very well,especially with guns that "fit" me. Understand tho' part of this comes from being taught to shoot anything without sights...Visualization mixed with Zen. " I was learnt this way". I can sketch those things I worked around...designs and such, did well in Mechanical drawing.

With skool I've allowed my penmanship, spelling and vocab to slide. Symbols, Abbreviations and Acronyms...+ spellcheck and word processing tools...Lets just say my targets are easier to read than my handwriting :D

Jim-where on earth did this theory come from?...;)

[Hkmp5sd]

Jim-where on earth did this theory come from?...

He's got to have something to ponder while sitting through all of those boring California hearings trying to straighten out their biased CCW laws. :)

[Chris Rhines]

I cannot point shoot at all, I have to use some kind of visual index to hit anything past arm's length.

Sketching, I can't do anything natural (people, animals, etc). I'm quite good at freehanding mechanical stuff.

- Chris

[Schuey2002]

Hey Jim I can point shoot reasonably well;but I could not freehand sketch to save my life!

Same here. :uhoh:

I couldn't even take a picture of someone sketching a point shooter to save my life! :p

[Ian11]

A select few have the ability to use the Force. I for one am not a Jedi Knight unfortunately.

[Jim March]

Well, it's like this: some people seem to be able to point-shoot the first time they pick up a gun, and some can't no matter how long they've been shooting.

Cooper and company believe that "natural point shooters" are so rare, it shouldn't be taught en mass because a NON-natural will revert to blasting rounds all over the geography under stress.

There has to be some way of predicting who might be such a "natural".

As stated, I can't draw or point-shoot worth a dang. I have met several people now who can point-shoot, and one was a published cartoonist. I started asking people who can point-shoot how well they draw...but I was never able to find enough point-shooters to nail this suspected link down.

The subject sorta came up over in strategy/tactics in a discussion of what cross-dominant (left eye dominant but right handed) people should do in terms of handgun drill. As such a type myself, I discussed my adaptations and one possible answer IS point-shooting - but Cooper's reasoning is pretty solid on trying to teach point-firing to a non-natural.

That thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31739

I keep coming back to the example of FBI agent and trickshooter Jelly Brice(sp?) of the pre-WW2 period. He was personally a superb combat handgunner, quite possibly the best that ever lived...and it was all point-shooting. BUT he was then asked to teach his technique to other agents and...well, "disaster" doesn't even begin. His "FBI crouch" probably killed more FBI agents than we can even count, and has long since been abandoned.

Clearly, there was something physically *different* about Brice that can't translate well into something "normal people" can do. Which is a lot different from the Cooper school, or modern Iscoceles or similar.

Follow? There's something innate going on that can't be taught.

Anyways. If it could be identified and predicted, we could better tailor techniques and instruction to individual shooters.

So is there something to this link?

As I'm writing this, there are 52 replies to the poll questions. NOT ONE IS A NUMBER THREE (can't point-shoot, can freehand sketch). I want to see at least 100 more answers (far more if we can get 'em) but guys, what we've got so far is...VERY interesting. Based on #1 and #2, clearly the link isn't "universal".

But...we've got a problem, because nowhere near enough non-point-shooters are chiming in and admitting such, so we're getting skewed numbers. The thread's been looked at 256 times. I *could* be wrong, but every source I've looked at suggests that the number of "natural point shooters" is very low.

So come on, guys, 'fess up: if you can't point-shoot worth a dang, chime in.

[sm]

Can I skew the thread again-good ;)

About #3...maybe using the mouse and clicking that dot is indication of another problem...( no wonder I can't hit squat)..Hey, no mouse here --got trackball ;)

Theories, Jim I was kidding you--this is interesting. You want a weird theory? Dead Serious, I was told by an anti, that breast feeding was the reason why people liked firearms, weapons and such. :scrutiny: I changed schools next semester. I had a great reply to her theory... you all would have been proud of me. ;)

[Jim March]

Sounds like she deserved a booby prize.

:neener:

Anyways. Let's try and get a whole buncha data, see what shakes loose.

[Triad]

Jim, a definition of what good point shooting is might help. The last time I tried it I did fairly well by my standards, but I have no idea of what you would consider good.

[E357]

I've always been a very good point shooter. I've become much better and quicker the last few years by playing with the CTC laser grips and with really good Airsoft handguns. With the Airsoft guns I can now throw soda cans in the air and hit them a few times before they land. I do need to be able to grip the weapon so that my plam is parallel to the bore (so it's really like pointing). I can't sketch people at all, but can draw buildings and other things better than average.

When I was a young man I was a wonderful baseball pitcher - but no curve. I could quite often knock down pigeons and seagulls with a ball or a rock.

Elliot

[444]

I have never done enough point shooting to tell. I am not even sure I know exactly what point shooting is. I have pointed a gun at something and fired it. I never did good at all. I use the sights all the time with 90% of my concentration and focus on the front sight or I don't hit anything. I was going through a simulator a week or so ago. I spotted the very top of a pepper popper's head at about 20 yards, hit it with no problem. Took one step and saw a popper around a corner at about three yards. I pointed the gun at it and fired two shots that were clean misses; put the front sight on target = no problem. Over the years I have done enough of this to realize that if the muzzle isn't in direct contact with the target, I better use the sights if I want to hit anything. I have even tried shooting shotguns from the hip and can't hit anything. Now maybe there is some technique to point shooting other than what I have been doing; if so, I don't know about it.
I also can't draw at all. I can't even make a good stick man.

[Majic]

Point shooting is just hand and eye coordination like that of any sport. Most reasonably fit person can readily learn it.
Sketching or drawing on the other hand is a talent aquired at birth. It can be refined, but seldom learned later in life.

[martin]

I really don't know what you mean by free hand sketching. Define it please.

[JackShandy]

...but I'm going to start now. I assume that point-shooting is when you keep both eyes open, a-la Mel Gibson in "Lethal Weapon" (except for the constant blinking-when-shooting), instead of the traditional close one eye method?

As far as being artistic; I used to think I could create art, and I was interested in drawing but I never really had any talent. I was okay at one time but now I have an Essential Tremor in my left (dominate) hand. That's what the doctor called it, but as far as I'm concerned, there's nothing essential about it! I can barely write my name, but most everything else (including shooting) is unaffected.

[stevelyn]

I can point shoot okay at reasonable handgun distances. My theory is that it's based on an expansion of my instinctive archery skills.
As for drawing........I couldn't draw flies on a hot day.

[Johnny Guest]

Have you discovered other references which tend to support the idea, or is this your initial research into it?

For my part, I used to be fairly decent with point shooting-- Not the Bill Jordan, aspirin tablet powdering style, but okay. I am certainly not art-grade at freehand sketching, but I can illustrate a concept pretty well. I seemed to have an inate understanding of perspective and distance in drawing.

Let us know if you publish your findings, huh?

Best,
Johnny

[Snake Eyes]

I have poor hand-eye coordination. Can barely catch, let alone throw a ball on target.

My drawing brings various and numerous scatalogical references.

When I first started shooting, 5 years ago, I went by the largest range rental counter and shot everything. I shot well.

No training, no nothing, just "that one looks cool, give me a box of ammo for it". I shot 2" groups at 10 yards with Sigs and Berettas. Caliber didn't matter. (Glocks and HKs grouped a little bigger).

The times I've tried point shooting, I did fairly well--meaning all my shots were COM at 10 yds, but not grouped as tight as aiming. When I practice, I point my gun then check sights and I'm almost always on target.

I assume that point-shooting is when you keep both eyes open..(edit)..instead of the traditional close one eye method?

I can't shoot with one eye closed. Even weak handed, accuracy degrades completely. Rifle scopes give me HUGE grief. I need super long relief to use them at all. Red-Dots, ACOGs, etc work really well for me.

So, am I a natural point shooter? Or just a natural gun handler?

[tomkatz]

I point shoot very well and always have, but like some others here don't freehand sketch very well. I saw some references to sports and that is what I have always related my shooting to, like the ability to shoot long shots in basketball which I have always been good at.
I saw bob munden hitting long three point shots with a basketball and he too seemed to think it tied in with shooting.
I could always hit and catch well in baseball, also table tennis, and excelled at judging long catches in football too. Don't know if any of this has anything to do with anything, but Jim definately has got us all thinking.....tom :cool:

[firestar]

It looks like your original theory is not holding up. Although this poll relies a lot on subjective interpretation, I think it shows the truth.

[Jim March]

First, REAL point-shooting involves fire where the sight plane is nowhere near the eyes. That's the definition I'm using here.

The "Weaver hold" (sighted fire) that I use can be clearly seen in the intro to the current Gunsite page:

http://www.gunsite.net/

It took me a while, but I finally found a site showing the stances of a particular shooting instructor who includes something akin to the WW2-era "FBI Crouch" shooting stance (source for ALL the pics to follow is http://www.cwd.net/TSA-Range-Report.htm ):

http://www.cwd.net/1/Image1.gif

Same stance, viewed from the side:

http://www.cwd.net/1/GUARDSHOOTINGSTANCE.jpg

This instructor is using this position as a close-range retention position, in which the gun is VERY hard to grapple away from you. If you have the shooter in the two pics above crouch down some more and take the off-hand completely off the gun, you'd have the WW2-era "FBI Crouch" as used and taught by Jelly Brice.

That old FBI system also included raising the gun to eye level for longer-range shots ONLY. Still firing one-handed.

This same instructor refers to a "flash sight picture hold" HE calls "point shooting":

http://www.cwd.net/1/POINTSHOOTINGSTANCE.jpg

This is akin to a two-handed version of the old Applegate-type "point shooting", what we today call an "unsighted flash picture" with the gun at eye level. More info on the Applegate types and the general history of "point shooting" can be found here:

http://www.spw-duf.info/point.html

And here's an interview with an instructor seriously "into" point shooting:

http://www.tacticalshooting.com/new/fistfire-faq.htm

[Jim March]

I just found a pic of a "high point shooting hold":

http://www.uws.com/SmallTruth.gif

Source: http://www.uws.com/Video_Personal.html

Note how the sights of the gun are really lined up more with the guy's mouth than his eyes. He's really using "natural point shooting" but with a more modern-flavor hold influenced by the two-handed *sighted* shooting schools.

Bill Jordan's point-shoot hold placed the gun at around the height of the solar plexus, extended with both hands, and at the center of the body. He would then treat his whole upper body as a "stable gun turret". The sights were much further below the eyeball level as shown in that small pic above.

[Jim March]

In answer to the question "what is good point shooting", to me it's the ability to hit man-sized targets out to at least 7 yards or more reliably without the gun's sight plane being in line with the eyes.

[4v50 Gary]

Didn't like the choices. Now, I can point shoot but I've had a lot of training and practice. Regarding drawing, I'm no artist but back in the old days of armorer's school my classmates liked my sketches. Good enough to understand but not good enough to be an "illustrator."

[12-34hom]

Point shooting is for scatter guns.

One must AIM a rifle or pistol.

But i will say i am a wizard with a box of crayons....:neener:

12-34hom.

[Jim March]

Well here's how abysmally bad my drawing skills are :).

About...lesse, three years ago, I was living in Richmond Calif with a roommate who was into "Anime" - also known as "Japanamation". Think "adult cartoons", in some cases VERY adult.

So anyways...our apartment building gets a major infestation of drug dealers. This wasn't uncommon, but this outbreak was particularly bad - the morons fired up a meth lab in the basement and then put a giant complex mural of a gang tag out front, about 3ft x 4ft that translated to "coke/pot/heroin sold here" in Spanish :rolleyes:.

So I decided I needed a nice multicultural "get lost" symbol.

Well, back to said roommate's taste in videos - one cover had exactly what I needed:

http://www.geocities.com/etmassey/Harlock.htm - it's on Geocities so I can't link to the pic.

Perfect. So at 2:00am, I'm out front of the building with a can of black engine paint, about to do a post-modern (supposedly 30th Century in fact) Jolly Rodger all over this damn tag :D. (To keep it on-topic - yes, I had a 38snubbie in my pocket. I may be crazy, but I ain't stupid.)

As you can see, the actual skull'n'crossbones symbol used was pretty simple. And I *still* needed to carry one of my roommie's video covers out to have something to work off of :rolleyes:.

(The next morning, said roommie looked at me funny, and asked if we'd been visited by Harlock the Space Pirate :D. But it worked - the dealers split the next day, apparantly they realized they'd pushed the locals a wee bit too far. And a few days later, I was leaving the building and a couple of cops had stopped and were laughing their butts off while pointing to my "art". :evil: )

[10-Ring]

I have only recently been learning how to point shoot. I'm told it's a skill that really depends on muscle memory & lots of repetition. I'm okay & I hope to improve. My drawing on the other hand :(

[Dr.Rob]

I had a buddy that swore up and down that he had better hand/eye co-ordination than I did because he played video games.

I threw him a pencil and said "Oh yeah? Draw my face.":neener:

He couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with a real rifle/shotgun/pistol but he did well at Hogan's Alley (the game).

I'm a fairly accomplished artist and I used to practice figure drawing 3 hours a week for a period of seven years (most of college and for a long time at my studio)

You can call it a "flash sight picture" or whatever but you can learn to draw the human form in 10-15 seconds you learn to look, and to SEE very quickly, but you do have to practice.

Try this. Take your UNLOADED pistol (or training aid) index 4 or 5 "targets" in the room, a vase, a mirror, a TV.. whatever. Look at the for a few seconds. Shut your eyes and draw, point your gun at one of your targets. Open your eyes. Are you close? I'd bet you dollars to navy beans a trained observer, like an artist will do better than most folks.

It's an interesting thought.

[22luvr]

I've been cartooning since my age was in the single-digits and you may have seen a couple of my offerings on these various forums.

However, I'm probably a better cartoonist than reactive point-shooter.

[Ham Hock]

There should be another option to choose:

"I can point shoot reasonably well with the aid of a laser sight" :-)

[SkunkApe]

Jelly Bryce claimed his shooting skill came from his extraordinary eyesight; he could actually see his bullets in the air.

http://www.gutterfighting.org/jellybryce.html

[Flashpoint]

I can point and shoot reasonable well and I can pretty accuratly draw what ever I have in front of me.

[Thrash1982]

I've never done enough point shooting to tell but I can't draw worth a durn so I'd probably be pretty wretched at point shooting.

on the other hand I am a pretty good ping-pong player and could probably give you a whomping, so who knows. I'll give it a shot (so to speak) the next time I'm at the range.

[jem375]

Jim, sorry, your theory sucks..........I can't draw worth a damn, but, can point shoot............

[Monkeyleg]

In my younger years I could sketch fairly well; it was something I did all the time. After being away from sketching for so many years, I've lost the ability.

With regard to point-shooting, though, I seem to do pretty well. I've gone out to the range just before dusk, set up a full-sized black silhouette target, put on welding goggles (to get as close as possible to the conditions of shooting at night), then drew and fired without using sights. At seven yards, 42 to 47 of the 50 shots were COM.

At home, if I choose an object and draw on it without aiming, I find the sights to be pretty close to being right on.

Interesting theory, Jim.

[ambidextrous1]

Hi, Jim,

Let's look at Cooper's philosophy more closely: He says aimed fire is the best form of training; probably true.

We use the sights in trainong, which helps evaluate the errors that occur in presentation, breath control, trigger manipulation and stance.

Once these are understood and developed into a skill, through practice & repetiion, use of the sights is moot.:cool: Except at longer ranges, of course; no one seems to be claiming proficiency in point shooting at 50 yards.

[ninenot]

So--was VanGogh a good point-shooter? What about Michaelangelo?

I learned point-shoot by reading a Cooper book and can generally get 5 rounds into a 4" square (center-mass-centric) on a silhouette at 10 yards.

Have taught point-shoot to one young fellow who never before had fired a 9mm semi (he used my H&K USP.) He put 4 rounds into a 4" square (as above.) He was quite impressed with himself. All I told him was to crouch slightly, line up the pistol using his index finger, then death-grip the pistol, stiffen the elbow and wrist, focus 'until his eyes bled' on the target, raise the pistol, and when it broke his line of sight, fire IMMEDIATELY.

Will try teaching the technique to son-in-law who is pretty good with rifle and shotgun but not well-versed with pistol and see what happens.

Cooper may be right that there are only so many point-shooters--but the technique is so simple, as long as one focuses on the target with great concentration----

Well, we'll see what happens with son-in-law. If he can't do it, then maybe Cooper's right.

[P95Carry]

My sketching is not good ..... just adequate .. sorta thing as an engineer that will succeed in ''gettin the message over''!

My point shooting is also ''adequate'' ... not remarkable but ..... dangerous to stand in the way!!:p

I do believe there is a factor here ... which can be both ''natural'' and also ''aquired'' ...... the keyword is ''proprioceptive''.

This is linked to the positional detectors we have in muscles .... bit like close your eyes and stand still .... your proprioceptors can tell when a muscle is on stretch as you begin to sway . and so help accomodate a compensatory reaction from opposing muscles.

Point shooting is IMO all the better when the proprioceptive feedback mechanism is honed .. mostly thru practice ..... but some people do seem to have it made ... with no effort!! Some may also call it 'muscle memory'.

[Blueduck]

Clearly, there was something physically *different* about Brice that can't translate well into something "normal people" can do.

I think your on to something there. I saw an ancient tape of legendary speed shooter Ed Mcgiven (sp??).

I swear the guy had the worst form I've ever seen in my life! Any R/O nowdays would have thrown him off the line during his record breaking feats for being a threat to others safety. He was off balance to begin with and was actually stumbling forward as his last shots were being fired.

Bad as it looked it was good enough to take home world records for him...

PS Have to work hard to be even a decent point shot and can't sketch worth a darn...

[Griff]

Mr March - thinking anywhere along the lines of the Left / Right Hemisphere Creative / Analytical argument? Spatial relationships? Interesting.

"I can point-shoot reasonably well (without massive training), and freehand sketch at least adequately."
Guess all that time in art school could pay off some day after all.

*pun alert* check out the title of this classic book:
http://www.drawright.com/

[BHPshooter]

I can point-shoot pretty decently, and can freehand sketch fairly well -- I'm a little out of practice though (at drawing ;) )

Great thread.
Wes

[spacemanspiff]

i'm somewhat okay at point shooting, and i can sketch abstract images. instead of having an idea of what i am about to draw, the hand does all the work. kind of like 'instinctive drawing', if you will.

ask me to draw something specific, and i couldnt do it. not even a stick figure.

but this leads me to a side question...what distance would you judge your point shooting skills at? i use 5-7 yards, and occasionally will use discolored clumps of dirt in the backstop 50 yds out. its satisfying to see the clump disappear in clouds of dust/dirt over and over again.

[themic]

i personally think "reasonably well" point shooting is to hit an 8 1/2 x 11 " paper at 21'. can do this with a handgun pretty reliably, and it gets tighter the more shots you ring out.

i would say "good" point shooting is to hit multiple targets say 3" diameter at 21', one shot per target. can do this with a paintball gun i know, and without tracking my shots cause it's one shot per target. but it is a two-handed weapon, too.

[XavierBreath]

It's a right brain spatial thing. I draw well, have a BFA and some master's work. I can point shoot but not very well at distances greater than 20 feet.

[clubsoda22]

i can paint the walls with whatever i'm point shooting at, but can't draw a straight line with a ruler...on graph paper.

[444]

Just my opinion, but I feel that in order to consider point shooting good, one would have to reliably hit the "A" Zone of a silhouette or something of similar size on a regular basis on the first shot from a holster from a given distance. If you can do this at all, then you need to determine just how far away you can do this. Then you know that shots beyond this distance require more careful aim with sights.
I have fired without sights, or "shot from the hip" and was able to walk my shots onto a target, but if I had time to walk the shots in, I had time to use the sights. By the same token, in a self-defense senario, odds are you are not going to be able to walk your shots on target. You probably won't even be able to see them and again, if you don't hit the first couple times and are not out of the fight, you had time to use the sights.

[Erik]

Define "reasonably well."

[Jim March]

Eric, it's been pretty well thrashed out through the thread...both in terms of shooting and sketching.

At a minimum, I described how truly bad I am at freehand sketching.

[arinvolvo]

Im a lefty, and given a good gun I can shoot very well...but I can draw well even with a crappy pencil!

[arinvolvo]

ten shots.....

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=392863

[arinvolvo]

...and ten minutes

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=392869

[444]

:confused:

10 shots point shooting ?
What range ?

[arinvolvo]

The ten shots are not necesarrily point shooting, but quick fire strong hand supported at 7 yards I believe...Not really a good indicator of good point shooting, but the only target pic I have...I would say my point shooting is pretty good...but I supose you will have to take my word for it.:D

Sketch done from this picture.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=392875

[Cosmoline]

I can't point worth a darn. I usually use my whole arm as a "sight" when I'm trying to point at something. If I do it from a bent arm, my finger is typically aiming at distant mountains or blue sky.

It's sights for me.

[RandyC]

I sketch for a living. I can only speak for myself but, for me, sketching and point shooting have both been gifts whereas aimed fire is a practiced discipline.

I'm fairly amazed at my point shooting (within ten yards) so I don't practice it. What I do practice is rapid sight acquisition because when the chips are down my body will want to revert back to the point and shoot. I figure, only through discipline and practice, over and over, will I train my instincts to pick up that front sight.

Oh, and I don't really see the connection between sketching and point shooting. Of course, opinions may vary.