[Marintime Mike]

Hi...anybody got any information on these Australian beefed up Lee-Enfields ?
I just got a sporterized version by mail order...it came with a spare mag, a tool for adjusting the sights, a scope mounting rail...and NO manual..
It's a lovely looking thing...weighs a ton because the furniture is teak..and I do like it....
It is advertised as "7.62X51mm NATO ( .308 Winchester ) " as though they were completely interchangeable...the barrel is stamped "7.62 X 51 " which is a designation for nothing I know of....7.62 NATO is the nato designation.
Anyhoo...I took the beast to what we call a gunsmith around here...( I am out in the boonies of New Brunswick, Canada ) and had him check the headspace....the action won't QUITE close on a SAAMI .308 field guage..
From what I've seen reported on the net people are using commercial .308 in these rifles as THOUGH is was chambered for .308 . The action IS beefed up to easily handle any pressure ammunition commercial or Nato...so that is not a concern....I am being overcautious,,,but if you are going to put ammunition in a firearm that doesn't EXACTLY match the barrel stamp...you'd best be careful....
Any information concerning these rifles would be appreciated....and anything concerning their ability to handle commercial .308 greatly appreciated...
Thanks...

[Dave Markowitz]

7.62x51 is the metric designation for .308 Winchester, which is the same cartridge as 7.62 NATO but sometimes loaded to higher pressure.

[Marintime Mike]

Ahhhhh....thanks Dave....if I read you right...what you are saying is that the "7.62x51 " stamped on the barrel is the metric way of saying that it is chambered for ".308 Winchester " ? Is this correct ?

[goon]

They are generally considered to be interchangeable.
One of my reloading manuals used 7.62x51 Nato casings for their .308 handloads.
If they are close enough for Speer, they are close enough for me. ;)

BTW - how did you get one of those Aussie Enfields. I don't think they are available here in the states. Are you in New Zealand or Australia?

[Marintime Mike]

Thanks goon....I am in New Brunswick Canada...just east of the great state of Maine....There are a couple of distributers for these aussie .308's in Canada ....if you would like to get one ,,,bring a crane with a a 2 ton lifting capacity because they are HEAVY....I love the thing though....bought it as much for looks as anything....

[Dave Markowitz]

Ahhhhh....thanks Dave....if I read you right...what you are saying is that the "7.62x51 " stamped on the barrel is the metric way of saying that it is chambered for ".308 Winchester " ? Is this correct ?

Yup.

[goon]

Mike - I hadn't thought of Canada.
You would think that if they can get them in Canada they could also get some here in the states, especially since there isn't anything "remarkable" about them to the ATF.

Don't feel bad about the confusion. Technically there are supposedly minor differences that never really seem to make any difference unless you are using the most worn out POS or the tightest match chambered AR-10 variant.
If you read through the articles below you'll see that even the people who should "know" what they are talking about don't really know what they are talking about.

http://www.smellysmleshooters.net/ammopressure.htm
http://www.fulton-armory.com/308.htm
http://www.6mmbr.com/308win.html
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2006/308vs762nato/index.asp

[Deadman]

A retailer here in Australia - www.lawranceordnance.com - has been stocking these rifles and the 7.62x39 versions for a few years now. You could try emailing them for any specific information :

mailto:lawranceordnance@bigpond.com

[armoredman]

Hard to find, importer went belly up once. See http://www3.sympatico.ca/shooters/AIARifle.html

[Marintime Mike]

Thanks deadman...armouredman....I'll give those guys a try. This is a VERY nice rifle, if a bit pricey...cost me about a thousand bucks when all was said and done....but it has the things I was looking for...strong action...ten round magazine....everything else in .308 is four round mag and one in the chamber. I don't like having a round in the chamber...and I also don't like filling a magazine to the limit...so I would wind up with a rifle with two or three available rounds if I had got one of those....Also this thing is solid...it will outlast me , my children and my grandchildren...

[351 WINCHESTER]

I recall reading somewhere that these rifles are made in Viet Nam. Don't know if that is true or not. Perhaps someone can look at the c/o markings on the rifle and let us know. The reason they are not being imported into the United States is there is some question as to the rifle's origin. Communist countries take the column 2 rate of duty which in a lot of cases 100%!

[Marintime Mike]

Hi winchester....interesting...here's what I've been able to find out...
The CO stamped on the receiver is "Australian International Arms, Brisbane, Australia"...I understand the parts are sourced out of various countries...I think the teak comes from Thailand...and some of the small parts, springs and such originate in Vietnam....Interestingly enough this particular firearm must have BEEN destined for the US...because (barely legible ) it has "imported by Sabre Defence Industries, Nashville, Tn. stamped on the other side of the receiver...
Prior to this .308 series, which is all new construction, the company made an "A" series in AK-47 caliber which used mil surp parts,,,probably a LOT of them from Vietnam....I understand there were a fair number of problems with these...particularly feeding and extracting...
I think "Sabre Defence Industries" may have gone bankrupt,,,or if not...they decided not to be the distributer in America...As far as I know, there is no problem importing the .308 version to the United States because of country of origin concerns, and I believe Australian International Arms is in negotiations with another American importer...
AIA is a very small operation...I think their total output is about 1500 units a year....and a lot of their business effort goes into jumping through the hoops and hurdles of the countries they export to...
Anyway,,,this is a damm fine rifle...I hope the manufacturer stays in business..kind of pricey for a .308 , but a very robust unit....they made those Lee Enfield actions to fire underwater....
I also understand that they plan a version in .223....don't think I'd want one of those though...a 12 pound rifle to fire .223 kinda defeats the purpose...

[351 WINCHESTER]

Marintime Mike,

Thanks for your reply concerning the country of origin of these rifles. I read sometime back that they were made in Viet Nam and the importer had falsely declared them to U. S. Customs as to the origin of the rifles. The importer of record was probably fined by Customs for fraud and all rifles would have been seized. This may have led to the importers demise as the Treasury Dept always gets their money. I saw a shipment of green coffee beans that the importer told us were from Indonesia. Upon examination the bags were clearly marked "Vietnam".

It sounds to me that the parts are imported into Australia, assembled in a foreign trade zone and exported from the trade zone as rifles which take a lower rate of duty.

It's the same old story - it's all about money. I would like to handle one and see how they stack up to the originals although I do think they are a little pricey.

Do you know of a website that I could look at?

[MD_Willington]

TriStar Sporting Arms used to have the 7.62x39 M10 on their webpage, now they only have shotguns.

[Marintime Mike]

Yep....you can see these rifles and basic information ( of course it's information BY the vendor ) at http://www.marstar.ca/gf-AIA/index.shtm
Clicking on the images of the individual rifles at the bottom of the intitial page brings up info specific to that version....AIA has it's own website too...same basic information...

[Limeyfellow]

If they were imported into the US, I would have picked one up. They look a fine rifle and I wanted one for a while, but alas I don't have the influence to get them in.

[MD_Willington]

I've only used Mk4's back in Canada....

[AZ_Rebel]

Mike is the Sporterized version still that heavy? How much does it weigh?
It seems quite expensive... have you had a chance to see how it shoots?

What part of N.B. are you in? And why did you spell your name "Marintime" rather than "Maritime"? (I used to live outside Fredericton.)

[Marintime Mike]

Hi AZ.....The sport version weighs about 8 1/2 lbs....it just seems deceptively heavy for the look of it because of the teak furniture....Haven't had a chance to shoot the thing yet....too bloody cold out....
As for why I spelled my name "Marintime"....it's because I didn't know how to spell "maritime".....I lert to spell frum hucked on foniks...werked reel guud fer me.....
I am in Saint John....brothers and sissters live up country on both sides of the river between here and Frederiction....
Yes the rifle was expensive...ran about a thousand bucks...but it had the things I wanted...extreme durability...( the action is beefed up about 1 1/2 times the regular SMLE )....ten round magazine...in .308...all of the other rifles I looked at had four to five round capacity including a round in the chamber....I don't lug firearms around with a round in the chamber...and I don't fill magazines to capacity...usually two rounds less...which would have left me with TWO rounds available..the chromed barrel and savage head spacing system are nice too...

[AZ_Rebel]

Hello Mike:
8.5 lbs is certainly a bit on the heavy side. :( The SMLE is not that heavy in other forms so you are correct that its probably the teak wood. I wonder if you could shave a pound or so by drilling some lightning holes in the barrel channel and under the butt plate? Some careful paring could drop quite a few ounces here or there - especially with this (heavy) wood. You could always fill the holes with spray foam to keep moisture out and maintain some strength.

I know what you mean about being too cold to shoot... same here... it only got up to 77F yesterday, brrrrrrr.... :barf:

Just Kidding! But... it is ONE of the reasons I moved to AZ - another reason is the 1911 riding on my belt. (BTW with round in chamber AND full magazine.

I would be very interested to hear how this rifle shoots. I have had quite a few SMLEs but all in .303 British. All of them shot very well except one Ishapore with a bad barrel.

What are the markings on the rifle? The possible Vietnam connection is interesting.

[Marintime Mike]

Hi Reb....re the barrel markings and country of origin...I'll repost this info from a previous post...

The CO stamped on the receiver is "Australian International Arms, Brisbane, Australia"...I understand the parts are sourced out of various countries...I think the teak comes from Thailand...and some of the small parts, springs and such originate in Vietnam....Interestingly enough this particular firearm must have BEEN destined for the US...because (barely legible ) it has "imported by Sabre Defence Industries, Nashville, Tn. stamped on the other side of the receiver...
Prior to this .308 series, which is all new construction, the company made an "A" series in AK-47 caliber which used mil surp parts,,,probably a LOT of them from Vietnam....I understand there were a fair number of problems with these...particularly feeding and extracting...
I think "Sabre Defence Industries" may have gone bankrupt,,,or if not...they decided not to be the distributer in America...As far as I know, there is no problem importing the .308 version to the United States because of country of origin concerns, and I believe Australian International Arms is in negotiations with another American importer...

[Smokehouse69]

7.62 NATO and .308 Winchester is NOT the same ammo. The cases look the same, but the chamber is different. That's why your gun failed with a .308 field gauge. Plus .308 is loaded to higher pressures than 7.62 NATO ammo.
7.62 ammo is loaded to a maximum pressure of 50,000 psig, where as .308 is loaded to 62,000 psig. Also the brass on NATO ammo is thicker than .308 ammo.
I'd be careful shooting anything but my own hand loads using .308 brass in a Nato chambered rifle. or some of the low powered .308 loads available in the USA, from Rem, Win, and Fed. Maybe they are sold in Canada too.

Here's the full scoop on the differences.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/shooters/7_62vs308.htm

Good Luck!

[Sunray]

"...and NO manual..." That's because there isn't one. There used to be a tale of woe about these long dollar rifles on .303british.com.
There is no U.S. distributor either.

[goon]

That's a shame because it really does seem like a great concept.
At $1K you'd be hard pressed to rationalize buying an enfield over a FAL or an M1A. If they could lower the price and get them into the US I think they'd sell well.

Sunray - what was wrong with them?

[Hellion Productions]

Maritime Mike, I envy you, sir. I've wanted to import one of these rifles for years.
First, Tristar fell through. Then Sabre. Hopefully someone will pick up the ball and import these rifles into the US.


Best,
John Bear Ross

[Trebor]

There used to be a tale of woe about these long dollar rifles on .303british.com.

Can you elaborate on the "tale of woe?" Just in case these ever do get imported to the U.S. I'd like to know if I should stay away.

[Marintime Mike]

Hiya Smokehouse69....Thnx for the info....I am aware of headspace and pressure concerns in firing commercial .308 in a NATO 7.62 chambered firearm.
The action in this rifle is beefed up considerably...1 1/2 times SMLE original specifically to handle the higher pressures of .308 . I was a little concerned about head spacing...but I think the thing is in tolerance for .308....I think it is quite safe even without the thicker brass of mil spec ammo....I would be a bit hesitant to fire full power reloads ,,,,This is not a military surplus firearm and I think they designed it with the idea of using .308 or Nato 7.62 .

[AnimeFanatic5602]

And they're still not available in the U.S. yet. Maybe sometime in 2010, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

As for price, I could reasonably understand $600-700 (not that I could necessarily afford it), which would make it comparable to some of the like-new No 4 Mk 2's that I've seen. If the brand-new rifle has the same price as a surplus one, I'd probably choose the newer one.

[Avenger29]

Actually, some have been imported. I've heard reports of them selling at Gander Mountain. Dunno the caliber availability, though.

There's also a Sabre Defense Industries, LLC in Nashville, TN. They seem to deal mostly in AR type rifles. http://www.sabredefence.com/index.php

[rogertc1]

Kind of an old thread but I got my M10 2A thru Gander MT in March 2009 for $700. Very well made and beautiful rifle. 7.62X39 and takes AK magazines. Bore is chrome lined all the way into the flash hider. Metal is flawless with parkerized finish. The wood is nicely figgured and matching. No longer Imported into the USA.
The one on top.:)

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c248/rogertc1/Carbines.jpg

[<SLV>]

It is hard to communicate with this company. I'm interested in becoming their US importer. I, too, think they have an excellent product, but I think the US target community would prefer non-lined barrels. Also there is a great market opportunity in the USA for a highly accurate long-barreled (20-26") 7.62x39 bolt gun, and this format might really get a following.

7.62 NATO uses M14 magazines and 7.62 Russian uses AK magazines -- real handy.

I'll let everyone know how my quest goes. I'd love to be selling these in the USA in 2010.