FBI Duty Ammunition


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aaronchaim
November 26, 2007, 08:03 PM
What ammunition does the FBI currently use in its variety of handgun, rifle, shotgun calibers, for duty and practice? I've had no luck finding this information anywhere online, thought maybe a forumite might know. Thanks in advance.

Aaron

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Brian Williams
November 26, 2007, 08:26 PM
I was shooting at a local range and while packing up a local FBI agent stopped by and while comparing guns, I noticed he was using Federal 40 S&W for a sig and was using federal 357s for a S&W 340 as backup

MikePGS
November 26, 2007, 08:48 PM
Interesting, I always thought that the FBI carried either Glock 22's, or 23's. Then again, don't they have some sort of list of duty approved weapons?

Wild Deuce
November 26, 2007, 08:58 PM
I think FBI shotguns are loaded with #1 Buck.

Soybomb
November 26, 2007, 09:09 PM
November 19, 2007

The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has awarded Winchester®
Ammunition the single largest ammunition contract in the history of
federal law enforcement worth a maximum of $54 million.

Winchester Ammunition will produce 40 S&W service ammunition,
training ammunition, reduced lead training ammunition and frangible
ammunition for the FBI for one base year, with four, one-year renewal
options.

"The innovation behind the enhanced 40 S&W bonded service round is a
testament to our Winchester engineers and the quality of our
manufacturing," said Dick Hammett, president, Winchester.

Winchester's enhanced 40 S&W service ammunition is a 180-grain,
bonded jacketed hollow point round and was selected over all other
rounds that were tested. The FBI tests the terminal ballistics of
each round by shooting a specific test protocol through various
barriers such as heavy cloth, wallboard, plywood, steel and auto
glass into ballistic gelatin.

In addition to the FBI, the contract affects many agencies both
inside and outside the Department of Justice, including the Drug
Enforcement Administration, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and
Explosives and U.S. Marshal Service.

"On behalf of Winchester, we are extremely proud that our nation's
premier law enforcement agency has selected Winchester ammunition to
use in its mission of protecting and defending the United States,"
said Hammett.

For more information about Winchester Ammunition and its complete
line of products visit www.winchester.com

Media Contact:
Jonathan Harling jonathan@chevalier-jonatha or CJ Davi

aaronchaim
November 27, 2007, 02:29 PM
Last I heard the FBI was doing away with its personally owned program. But somewhere I've seen a list (perhaps now slightly out of date) of authorized POWs and ammo. Anyone?

Liko81
November 27, 2007, 03:34 PM
Well if .40S&W is the only caliber contracted for service pistols, one would think they're going to an issued-only program for duty weapons. The question is what they're issuing, and/or if you have your choice of pistols in that caliber. As long as you can live with the issued weapon as your primary, there's not much to complain about; free practice ammo, free service ammo, and in an issue environment any problem can be solved with a swap from the locker. From what I know of LEAs (which is not much), if you are allowed a backup it can be practically anything, but your backup is totally your gun, and the maintenance/ammo is your responsibility.

Mustang51
June 28, 2009, 11:58 AM
I retired from the FBI several months ago and can tell you that the issue FBI shotgun ammo is both 00 buck and slug rounds. We qualified on the "shotgun #10" course which consisted of shots from the 50 yard line to the 7 yard line with both slug and 00 buck rounds, using both "assembly area" and combat loading techniques.

The standard FBI sidearms are the Glock 22 or 23's. Although, you will still find agents carrying issue SIG 228's and even a few 226's in 9mm, they are being phased out. And, of course, even though the personally owned weapons (POW) program was suspended in 2007, there are still plenty of guys carrying previously approved SIG 229's, Glock 21's, 17/19's, and 26/27's. Also, SWAT trained agents are issued Springfield 1911's in .45. Agents are no longer authorized to carry personally owned revolvers. I had to give up carrying my S&W model 49 in the ankle rig in about 2006.

Although Winchester recently got the contract for .40 ammo, there is still a lot of service ammo from previous contracts. At the time of my retirement, I still was carrying Speer Gold Dot ammo and had boxes of Remington Golden Saber .45 and Federal Hydra-shok .40 in my BuCar for back up.

HC
September 8, 2009, 08:01 AM
Are all agents issued a long arm? I've read of Remington Model 870P shotguns, Scattergun-modified 870Ps, RRA LAR-15 carbines, and H&K MP5/10SFA3 carbines being used by (non-SWAT) agents, but am curious if an agent has any say in what he's assigned, and if not, whether there's any pattern to who's issued what. Many thanks!

Cheers

HANS

9mm+
September 8, 2009, 08:41 AM
Mustang 51 has it correct. One of my local friends is ex-Bureau and said that he carried Sig 228 but current agents carry Glocks in 40S&W. Carrying long rifles will depend on what kind of unit you're assigned to and training quals. For example, FBI SWAT and HRT have different mission requirements and therefore will carry different weapons mixes.

Mustang51
September 8, 2009, 11:34 AM
The Bureau now issues some type of long gun to any agent that wishes one. The standard shotgun is a Remington model 870 with a 14" barrel and rifle sights. Also issued are RRA LAR 15 semi auto .223 carbines, MP5 SF's in 9mm and MP5/10mm with two round burst. Which long arm each agent gets depends to some extent on assignment, inventory of available weapons and whether he/she has qualified with their weapon of choice.

SWAT and HRT, of course, have a different long guns, to include full auto MP5's, with and without suppressors, Colt M4's and H-S Precision .308 sniper rifles.

GRIZ22
September 9, 2009, 07:32 AM
Federal agencies usually change ammo to spread the wealth. Ammo is selected from an approved list and ordered at a contract price. Today they may be issuing ABC ammo and 6 months from now XYZ ammo.

http://www.gunreports.com/news/ammo/Winchester-FBI-AMMO_482-1.html

This link gives the particulars of an ammo contract awarded last year by the FBI to WW.

jbrown50
September 9, 2009, 08:03 AM
Mustang51 explains it very accurately.
As Soybomb pointed out, the 'latest' issue ammo is Winchester Ranger Bonded in .40 S&W and 9mm. The version of this ammo that's sold to regular old citizens is Winchester Supreme Elite Bonded PDX1.

xXxplosive
September 9, 2009, 09:13 AM
So why is it then that SWAT Trained Agents use .45ACP and all others are given .40 Cal. For me, I want the .45.........if it's good enough for them.



Always CC my Combat Commander .45ACP.....................:cool:

RockyMtnTactical
September 9, 2009, 02:38 PM
My dad is in the bureau. He is issued 165gr Gold Dots for his Glock carry ammo, use to be 165gr Federal Hydra-Shoks.

Their practice .40 ammo is/was Winchester 165gr FMJ.

He use to have a 10mm MP5 (with single shot or two round burst), don't recall the ammo he was issued in 10mm, but they weren't Gold Dots. I think it was Winchester.

.223 ammo is Federal Tactical Bonded 65gr SP's.

Some of the guys in his squad are SWAT/HRT and they carry .45 1911's. No clue what their carry ammo is.

Corporal K
September 9, 2009, 03:40 PM
But...but...but Glocks are junk!!! ;)

Mustang51
September 9, 2009, 03:56 PM
Federal agencies usually change ammo to spread the wealth. Ammo is selected from an approved list and ordered at a contract price. Today they may be issuing ABC ammo and 6 months from now XYZ ammo.

I can only speak about the FBI’s practice with respect to ammo purchasing.

The FBI’s current firearms policy is, in my view, guided by the 1986 shootout in Miami in which 2 agents were killed and 5 agents were wounded. The outcome caused the Bureau to re-think its entire firearms policy and resulted in a number of changes:

-Because of the difficulties of reloading revolvers under fire, the Bureau changed its long standing policy of “revolvers only” for the general Agent population. Prior to that shootout, only SWAT agents carried autos, mostly S&W 459’s.

-More long guns on charge out to Agents. Prior to the shootout, the general Agent population usually were required to “check out” a long gun from the gun vault before an arrest and return it afterward. The long gun usually was a bead sighted 18 or 20 inch Remington model 870 12 gauge shotgun or more rarely, a Remington model 760 in .308. After the shootout, more shotguns were on permanent check out to agents, more were fitted with the 14” barrel and the Bureau obtained a supply of H&K MP5 SF’s for issue to the non-SWAT Agents.

-Because a 9mm silver tip round fired by Jerry Dove failed to penetrate sufficiently to reach Michael Platt’s (one of the murderers involved in the shootout) heart, the Bureau began to test ammunition for penetration, permanent crush cavity, etc. The Bureau now performs ammunition tests before each ammunition contract is let and only ammo that meets minimum criteria is purchased.

While ammunition changes are common, I think the idea that it changes every 6 months is an exaggeration. I would guess that once every 4 or 5 years would be more accurate.

So why is it then that SWAT Trained Agents use .45ACP and all others are given .40 Cal. For me, I want the .45.........if it's good enough for them.

It wasn’t that non-SWAT agents couldn’t carry a .45. They could buy and carry various S&W, SIG or Glock .45 ACP weapons. Eventually this was pared down to the Glock .45 and now, of course, the Personally Owned Weapons (POW) program has been suspended. Or at least it was at the time of my retirement last April.

What they could not do is be issued or purchase a 1911 type .45.

Mustang51
September 9, 2009, 04:00 PM
But...but...but Glocks are junk!!!

Some people certainly believe that (tupperware guns! lol). My experience with the Glock 23 that I carried was excellent. I put perhaps 10 thousand rounds through it and never had a stoppage. Not one.

Corporal K
September 10, 2009, 06:31 PM
Mustang51, what was the reason for stopping the POW program? Just curious.

kdstrick
September 10, 2009, 06:50 PM
Mustang51, thanks for the info! Very interesting.

DR505
September 10, 2009, 07:39 PM
The POW weapon program for the FBI has been recently reinstated, but much reduced. Agents can purchase a Glock 21 (.45 ACP), 22 (.40 S&W), 23(.40 S&W), 26 (9mm), or 27 (.40 S&W). If a SWAT Operator, one can purchase a SA Operator in .45 ACP. All revolvers are no longer authorized...no grandfathering of ANY revolver. However, some of the legacy SIGs that were POWs are still authorized until their service life is over. The S&W 1076 in 10mm is also off the list. Shoulder weapons are no longer on the list.

Duty ammo for .45 ACP is Rem Golden Saber 230 Grain JHP (non-bonded). The ammo for .40 S&W is the 180 grain Winchester JHP load. The remaining Speer 165 grain Gold Dots are to be used up and not replaced. Duty 9mm is Speer 124 grain Gold Dot ammo. Contrary to an earlier post, the FBI does not switch out ammo willy-nilly on a 6 month basis. There is a long ammo-testing procedure once the proposal for a new ammo contract is published.

MP-5's are being phased out and M-4 carbines (modified for semi-auto only), a mix of RRA and Colt, are for street agents...1 in 9 twist. SWAT uses a select-fire M-4 with a 1 in 7 twist. Service ammo is 60 grain Winchester w/Nosler partition ammo. Remington 870 is in the inventory and uses slug and 00 buck of the 9 pellet variety. The MP-5/10 uses Federal 190 grain JHP in 10 mm.

DR505
September 10, 2009, 07:45 PM
I just looked and saw how old this thread was!

GRIZ22
September 10, 2009, 08:39 PM
While ammunition changes are common, I think the idea that it changes every 6 months is an exaggeration. I would guess that once every 4 or 5 years would be more accurate.


I'm a retired Federal LEO (not FBI). I did not say the issued ammo changes every 6 months I said,

Today they may be issuing ABC ammo and 6 months from now XYZ ammo.


You may see a situation where you are issued ABC ammo, the ammo contract expires, and six months after ABC is issued XYZ is issued. Some agencies make bulk purchases and ship from one central location so if both ABC and XYZ ammo are approved you may wind up with ABC one quarter and XYZ the next and go back to ABC. There are a few types of ammo "in use" by the FBI within responses here.

Federal agencies often buy all kinds of stuff off other agency contracts, including the FBI. This gets the buyer a better price and the seller more business. I never saw an ammo contract for more than two years. Agencies want to take advantage of what new technology is available and the seller doesn't want to be screwed if component materials price goes up. The contract may get renewed for the same ammo which means you'll see it around for 4-5 years.

DR505
September 10, 2009, 11:09 PM
The FBI is a different animal when it comes to ammo purchases. The FBI announces it will be starting a new contract for ammunition. Requirements for both service and practice ammo are published, as are the testing criteria (searchable on Google). Ammo companies submit ammo for the testing. The ammo that does best in the testing, out of the ammunition submitted by manufacturers competing for the contract, is selected. So, the FBI will select the best ammo from the pool, but it may not actually be the absolute best that is currently available, as a manufacturer may not have submitted their product.

DR505
September 10, 2009, 11:12 PM
Mustang51, what was the reason for stopping the POW program? Just curious.

Temporary shortage of armorers was the reason I heard.

giggitygiggity
September 11, 2009, 12:10 AM
What kind of H-S Precision rifle does the FBI use?

Mustang51
September 11, 2009, 11:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corporal K View Post
Mustang51, what was the reason for stopping the POW program? Just curious.

Temporary shortage of armorers was the reason I heard.

I heard that too. Although the whole thing was pulled off essentially in the dark of night, with very little time to add anything to your list of POW's. I was away on a special at the time that the program was suspended, and by the time I returned to my Division, the program was over. I had wanted to add a Glock 27, but didn't get a chance.

I sent a scorching E mail to Quantico about the speed in which a 50+ year old program had been ended and got back a reply from the person responsible that implied that it was the Gun Vault's way of protesting the lack of resources that it had been given.

Mustang51
September 11, 2009, 11:08 PM
What kind of H-S Precision rifle does the FBI use?

It is an H-S precision HTR .308, with a Leupold MK4 3.5-10 x 40 scope.

Mustang51
September 14, 2009, 01:46 PM
The POW weapon program for the FBI has been recently reinstated,

Thanks for the update, DR505. The guy who replied to my nastygram to Quantico stressed that the program was "suspended" and not "ended". I wondered if that was a bunch of hooey to placate me. Glad to see that good sense has returned to the Bureau's firearms program.

HC
November 18, 2009, 04:31 AM
Are the Remington Model 870s new Remington Model 870 Police guns or the Scattergun Tech-modified Remingtons (TR-870 Model 90120) that were acquired in the early 1990s?
Are the RRA and Colt carbines used side-by-side? Which Colt model was acquired? The R6921 Tactical with 14.5" barrel and grenade launcher step?
Are there any requirements as to how much ammunition has to be carried?
How do agents transport ammo for their long arms? Rifle/SMG magazines or shotshells are difficult to stow properly in a suit, I imagine.

Cheers

HANS

Mustang51
November 24, 2009, 01:09 PM
The 870's are fairly old Wingmaster models. A few years back, they parked them and put 14" barrels with rifle sights on most of them. I'm not aware of the Bureau ever buying Scattergun Technologies 870's

The RRA and Colt carbines are used interchangeably. Not sure of the model numbers, but the carbines for general Agent carry had 16" barrels and no grenade launchers (?). As always, SWAT and HRT Agents frequently had different weapons than the general Agent population.

A few years before I packed it in and retired, I attended a transition class for the new RRA's carbine. It was mostly to learn about the optics (EOTech holographic sights) rather than any substantive differences between the operation of the RRA and Colt carbines.

No particular ammunition carry requirements, except the old adage to bring as much as you can carry. I usually had two full 30 round and two full 20 round magazines with my POW Colt. Long guns were not carried as a matter of course. Most agents had a long gun in their Bureau vehicle. I NEVER got it out of the case, unless I was wearing an FBI raid jacket, to minimize fear and confusion on the part of the public.

HC
November 28, 2009, 05:50 AM
Scatterguns: Apparently they bought some in the early 1990s (it was even called the FBI model), but it may well have been a limited buy for SWAT use. In fact, the parkerised, chopped, and rifle-sighted guns may be Scattergun weapons/reworks -- I understand that at least back then, they offered to rework any Remington you sent in.

Colt carbine: Like this (http://www.colt.com/law/ar15a3.asp)? That's the Colt R6721, with heavy 16.1" barrel and no step in the barrel to take the M203 launcher. Do you know when the new-style Colt carbines were acquired (I know that during the 1970s and 1980s, earlier patterns were already in service).

Ammo: Was there a minimum of rounds you were supposed to have? Like, "two 20-round magazines" or "50 rounds" or anything like that? What about the shotties? Cruiser-ready and a handful of shells? Agencies usually have procedures for that, right?

Carry: How did you carry your three spare mags? Just stuffed in a convinient coat pocket?

Many thanks for quenching my curiosity ;)

Cheers

HANS

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