[MatthewVanitas]

I'd seen all-metal Highland flintlock pistol repros in Dixie in the past. Recently, I visited the Nat'l Army Museum (London, UK), and a display case there showed various 18th C Scottish swords and all-metal pistols, noting that some Highland units were allowed to use their traditional weapons rather than standard Brit issue.

Why did the Scots end up with all-metal flintlock pistols in the first place? Some design advantage, just convention, or what?

[CrawdaddyJim]

No trees in the Scottish Highlands.

[mykeal]

True. Barren country, wild, windswept, rocky. But raw beauty. No forests to speak of except in the Argyles and parts of the Kintyre.

[Tom Bri]

And, they make great clubs after your one and only shot. A lot of hand to hand in those days and no time to reload.

[Eightball]

If you lack one natural resource, you use another (i.e., what's available).

[Novus Collectus]

No trees in the Scottish Highlands. So then what did they use in the furnaces to melt the metal?

[Stickjockey]

Peat and coal.

[Novus Collectus]

You can use peat in a furnace smelting iron?

I didn't think of the coal.

[DuncanSA]

I think basically they just wanted something hard and heavy to hit the enemy with if they were out of other options! It is not quite accurate to regard the all metal pistol as solely a Highland weapon, they appear to have been fairly general in Scotland (among the monied classes of course, as an all metal pistol would have certainly cost more than one with a wooden stock).
Don't forget that metal working was well developed in Scotland. A good example of this is the carronade, the heavy short range "ship smasher" used by the British navy, which was developed and cast at the Carron ironworks.

[Library Guy]

The Highland Charge circa 1745 went something like this:

Run at the British.
Yell at the British
At fifty paces discharge musket and drop
At ten paces discharge pistols and fling at British.
At five paces chuck dirk at British.
Finish British off with broadsword.
Yell some more.

Hey, they went with what they knew… until 16 April 1746. Then it became a good time to come to America.

Amo,
LG Roy

[RandyB]

As mentioned that weight added to its use as a club (in hand or thrown). As mentioned it was fire the musket, fire the pistol, throw the pistol, draw dirk and broadsword and charge!

[DuncanSA]

The Highland charge had much going for it in the right context. It failed at Culloden, where bad generalship placed the Royalist army on a barren moor in front of cannon and disciplined volley fire.

[4v50 Gary]

I posed the question to Colonial Williamsburg Master Gunsmith Gary Brumfield who said that he was told that the shortage of trees compelled the Scots to use metal instead. His own theory is that was the fashion of the times (man jewelry) for the Scots.

[DixieTexian]

They had good whisky to drink, so they drank it. It is then easier to hold something steady if it has a little extra weight to it.:rolleyes:

[Jim K]

Gary, it was probably both. The wood shortage undoubtedly caused the Scots gun makers to use metal, but the metal allowed schemes of shaping and decorating that would not have been possible with wood. Scots were generally not wealthy and able to easily replace pistols that were damaged, and an all-metal pistol was certainly more durable than a wood-stocked one would have been.

At the same time the "flamboyant and extravagant appearance" (quoting Martin Kelvin) appealed to the Scots personality. Pistols were not only weapons, but were also symbols of rank and prestige, with the higher ranking men carrying (and displaying) the more elaborate pistols. Later, the carrying of pistols was banned, but when the fad for things Scottish arose and the laws were relaxed (around 1820), the so-called "costume" pistol came into prominence. Often of inferior construction, it was not intended as an effective weapon; it was highly decorated and its main purpose was to show off the prestige and wealth of its owner. (For a comparison, consider the "barbeque guns" of our own South and Southwest.)

Jim

[Ash]

Many things Scottish became popular during Victorian times, with accessories becoming almost silly in nature. It seemed to be properly dressed, one had to have a dirk (with fork and knife), one or two steel pistols in the belt, the fly plaid, a sgian dubh, and other bobbles. Not much has changed when you go to a good highland game. Though I enjoy wearing the kilt, I am amused by what some folks do - turns it more into costume than anything else.

But as to the steel-flintlock (or brass), the scroll-butt made an effective crushing weapon out of the pistol after the shot was made. It was also a good platform for fancy engraving (wood not being as durable) and inletting.

Ash

[tkendrick]

No trees is what me Grrrrandfather told me, once, whilst ironin' the pleats in his kilt.

Me Grrrandmother had a different theory: When they weren't pickin on the Brits, the Scotts and the Irish would fight each other; and as we all know...bashin' a Celt in the head with a piece of wood is an exercise of most extreme futility.

She also said that if we Scotts and the Irish hadna been so busy fightin' each other, the Brits woulda never gotten past Hadrians Wall, and that only Barbarians put milk and sugar in their tea. Tis why God gave us Bushmill's

Smart woman, my grandmother.

[Duncaninfrance]

SCOTLAND - THE OLD ENEMY :neener:

There are more Scots and Scottish societies OUTSIDE Scotland than inside AND too many Scottish Politicians in the London. :fire:

They should be grateful that we - The ENGLISH http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/Duncaninfrance/england.gifhttp://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/Duncaninfrance/england.gifhttp://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/Duncaninfrance/england.gif were able to employ them as soldiers so that they could get into a good fight now and again - same goes for the Irish :D:D

Perhaps they saved the wood for making musket stocks or cabers (pointless exercise) :rolleyes:

Now, having put my flak jacket on I await the onrush of 3rd generation Scotts who will no doubt be most uncomplimentary!!!! I should point out however that I am allowed this type of rant and wind-up as I do have some Scottish blood in my left leg - Ross to be exact - but I am first a Yorkshireman and therefore ENGLISH. God Save the Queen :)

PS..........No, never mind!!

[mykeal]

Good Lord, he's a Yorkie. I knew there was something odd there. He's probably a magpie fan as well, poor sod! Up Celtic!

[Duncaninfrance]

Soccer - creampuff game! ( 22 faggots chasing a bag of wind round a cow pasture for 90 minutes and kissing each other if it goes through a hole at the end plus overacting if an opposition 'player' stamps too hard and dislodges one of their eyelashes ):evil:
Rugby Union or nothing mate:cool: Even the USA did well in this years World Cup.......congratulations ;)

[Ash]

Heh, caber-tossing might not be the most productive sport, but the wood used in turning that caber, a kind of cypress, is not all that good in rifle stocks.

In truth, the modern thought of Scotland is as much a romantic musing in the vein of Burns than anything else. Yet, the Scots, as much as you might malign them, have more than just a fighting sense, given of course the fact that of the scientific and engineering feats of the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries were disproportionately skewed towards the Scots. Percapita, they were the most prolific inventors/scientist/engineers on the planet. Pick your field - from medicine to astronomy to mechanical engineering to firearms, English bias aside.

To be sure the clan system of the highlands, and to a much lessor extent in the lowlands, contributed to the Scots lacking a very national identity while strangely being very nationalistic. Also, the Scots of today seem to be far more socialistic than the English to the south, and I dare say that most of us who trace our ancestry thus actually have more in common with our English brethren. All the same, I'll eat my haggis (yeah, I really like it as long as the preparation isn't too heavy on clove), wear my kilt (I wear it quite naturally) and enjoy Rob Roy when I can. I have my baskethilt (a real one from the 1700's) and wear my banishment from The Beau Rivage over my sgian dubh as a badge. I can bark out a fine lowlander's brogue and roll the highland off my tongue. You see, the state of Scotland today is due as much to the fact the English ran off so many of the greatest Scots. Though in fairness, they did adopt that oh-so-Scottish rifle invented by that fine Scot James Lee.

Ash

[Duncaninfrance]

Though in fairness, they did adopt that oh-so-Scottish rifle invented by that fine Scot James Lee.

But the first one wasn't!
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/Duncaninfrance/B1.jpg

Baker Rifle circa 1812 c/w with bayonet.

Q. From a female visitor to Edinburgh castle. "Is there anything worn under the kilt"?
A. From the RSM. " No madam, it's all in purrfect workin orrder"!

[English Bob]

Stop flashing that Baker, my keyboard gets covered in drool!

[Duncaninfrance]

Sorry Bob but as they say - "If you got it - flaunt it"! :neener:

[macFarlaine]

Fashion,and durability.Some of the hardest regiments in the world are Scottish,never take a backward step and always at the fore front of a battle..A proud nation the scots with a brave history to back it up.

[DuncanSA]

I think Duncan in France is groping towards the truth. When it all comes out we will find that a japanese consortium owned the patents on full-metal pistols and came to an arrangement with the Scots mafia. The dreaded "Cosa Haggisa".

[4v50 Gary]

DuncaninFrance - I didn't know you're a Yorkshireman. I've been to York and seen the tower. Cadbury is there in York. Have you had a Yorkie bar? I brought back about a dozen of them to pass out as souvenirs.

Speaking of the Scots, I remember a passage by Herbert McBride where he describes a German bayonet charge. The Scots didn't resort to bullets but despite being outnumbered, lept from their trenches and went head on. Thrust, parry, riposte. They wiped out the Germans with cold steel. Fighting Ladies from H*ll they were.

[JohnBT]

"the onrush of 3rd generation Scots"

Third generation? Heck, it's been 300 years since we tired of being near the English and came over. The English make great neighbors - with the Atlantic to keep them at a distance. ;)

John

[Feanaro]

Things like this often had nothing to do with practical concerns, like a lack of trees(I'm willing to bet most Scotch arms were imported). The Scots were probably just showing off, as they tended to do. Though the strength argument holds some weight.

They should be grateful that we - The ENGLISH were able to employ them as soldiers so that they could get into a good fight now and again - same goes for the Irish

I can't see why that was such a great deal, after all, they already had the people most deserving of a bloody noise right next to 'em. :D

I await the onrush of 3rd generation Scotts

Hah. My Scottish and Irish ancestors left the Isles long before it was popular. No doubt in trouble with the law, I.E. your rude and ugly ancestors. ;)

[AndyC]

The Scots were probably just showing off, as they tended to do.
Very true, but a minor correction here - we still enjoy showing off ;)

[Duncaninfrance]

Hi Gary.
DuncaninFrance - I didn't know you're a Yorkshireman. I've been to York and seen the tower. Cadbury is there in York. Have you had a Yorkie bar? I brought back about a dozen of them to pass out as souvenirs.

Tower? Do you mean Cliffords Tower or York Minster?

The 2 chocolate companies that used to be in York were Joseph Rowntree (Yorkie Bar) Now owned by Nestlé and Terrys of York (All Gold). Cadbury are in Birmingham.

[macFarlaine]

Rugby Union,for a Yorkshire man,never Rugby League is the only game for a man....

[Duncaninfrance]

Rugby Union,for a Yorkshire man,never Rugby League is the only game for a man....

I come from Huddersfield, where League was born - In the George Hotel to be exact but I played union and think it a better, faster game - when played well. I can watch both though.
Either version beats the hell out of any other ball game - except Aussie rules perhaps!

[Roswell 1847]

The style of decoration prefered may have played a part. I've seen Scottish pistols decorated with colorful baked on enamel and soldered on filligree and medalions of gold and silver.
Some wooden stocked handguns with similar decoration are covered with thin metal plating before the decorations are applied.
Also carving a wooden handgun stock takes a lot longer and more skill than casting one from metal. Inletting a flintlock is not that easy and a hidden flaw in the stock blank can weaken the gun at the place where the most wood has already been removed.
You'll see cast metal grips used by Tiffany in 19th century America as well.
The Tiffany Colt grips eliminate the need for a backstrap. I think those are bronze with silver plating.
I've also seen cast aluminum pistol grips for the 1911 and a few European military handguns.
I've heard cast metal grips for autoloaders were very popular in Mexico at one time.

Scottish all metal pistols were also very popular with American Revolutionary War officers, Washington had a beautiful pair.