[Eric F]

what is the cleanest most noncorrosive synthetic bp on the market? I use to use cleanshot years ago but cant seem to find it any more.

[TexasRifleman]

I am a fan of the Triple 7 in my revolvers. It cleans up nicely and is noncorrosive. I've also started using American Pioneer Powder some too and it seems about the same.

Now, these are not synthetic BP, they are substitutes.

I think Pyrodex is the only real synthetic BP still around but it's corrosive.

[dwave]

and is noncorrosive.

That is not 100% true (no disrespect TexasRifleman), it is less corrosive, but it still should be cleaned up shortly after shooting. I have waited several days, but here recently I waited 2 weeks to clean (yeah, I know!) and my gun had rust on it. Hodgdon doesn't list it as noncorrosive either. I know that Blackmag was listed as non, but right now you can't get any. I sent an email to the manufacturer and they said that they will be producing it again. I wanted to try it out myself. Anyways out of all the subs I have tried, real black is the best. For the subs its 777. (Except my .36 navy, it hates 777 and likes APP.)

[mykeal]

I haven't run any scientific tests, but in my experience, for how I use and clean my guns, 777 is the best substitute with respect to both ability to clean it and it's byproducts and effect on the hardware if not cleaned promptly.

[MCgunner]

I just picked up some APP "Jim Shockey's Gold" to try. Folks say you can fire it at the range without cleaning and it won't affect accuracy, which is what I'm looking for. Bonus is it cleans up easy and is non-corrosive. They claim it's quite hydrophilic, but I just plan to use it at the range. I'll likely hunt with Pyrodex, but will switch if the APP keeps okay. It's a humid environment down here, so I wonder. But, it'll be stored indoors in the AC.

[Mark whiz]

For what it is worth, I found that CleanShot, American Pioneer, Shockey's Gold (or whatever else it's called now) is the cleanest substitute on the market. It cleans easily and is definitely less corrosive in normal use. It also tends to absorb moisture from the air at an alarming rate, so much care has to be given it in that regard.

As far as the Black Mag 3 goes - I got a lb of it and found it to be complete junk. It was way underpowered, even compared to CleanShot (which is about 15% weaker than Pyro RS or true black powder). It also proved to be very inconsistent in my Knight -bullets that cut dime-sized groups using 777, would not rerspond well to any charge of Black Mag.

For me, 777 works best. It's powerful, cleaner than Pyro or black, loads consistently, and doesn't seem to go bad like the CleanShot stuff. Some have had issues with the crud build up caused by 777, but I've found that by keeping your power loads down (100gr being my largest load) I've not had any issues out of cap-igniting Knight.

[Franco2shoot]

Is there another manufacturer other than Pyrodex that makes pellets? I'm looking for something that will not foul the pin on my Uberti 1858 Remmy.
KKKKFL

[mykeal]

Pyrodex is made by Hodgdon; they also make 777 in pellet form.

[JCT]

777 is good if you're set on not using real BP. Pyrodex is too corrosive, it has no advantages and only exists because of shipping regulations on BP. I never had good accuracy or clean guns with pyrodex, but 777 is good. You need to watch out for over compressing 777, it's such a low density powder, you can squish it too much.
I prefer a full cylinder of real BP, seems to be much more accurate that way. A felt or wax wad under the ball helps take up space and lubes and softens fouling.
Usually those against real BP haven't tried any high quality BP. I think it's safe to say that BP in the 19th century was generally higher quality than what you can easily find now. If I shoot GOEX, my revolvers bind up quickly. If I use high quality BP, I can shoot all day. The difference is how hot and efficient the BP burns, that depends on the charcoal used.
If you can find Swiss, give it a try, otherwise, I think GOEX express should be good too.

[unspellable]

Today's balck powder is different. It becomes apparent if you shoot a BP cartridge double rifle. They are picky about the load, if it's not right the barrels won't shoot to the same point. In general you cannot get a regulated load with today's black powder and are forced to use a nitro for BP load. In some cases, Swiss will work, but it's the only one I've heard of that will. The bad news is that I've never seen a can of Swiss in the flesh.

JCT is right in that the charcoal is the most important difference. BP made with pure carbon is not very good. The impurities in the charcoal seem to act as a catalyst, and of course the impurities vary depending on the source of the charcoal.

[JCT]

Some have said that it's the salicylic acid that's in Willow that makes the BP more powerful. Salicylic acid is also used in rocket fuels and whistle mixes.

[.44walkersabot]

Yeah, I have shot some BlackMag. As far as I could tell it shot okay but I didn't have anything to really relate it to. Then they ran out of it and I switched over to Triple Seven 3f. I don't even remember much about the BlackMag it's been so long. It dosen't matter anyway. I'm gonna stick with the 3 sevens. It has pretty easy clean up, good consistant power and if it hasn't been opened up you can keep it damn near from now on. (or so all the dealers have told me) I have heard and read some awful things about Pyrodex. Can't say if they're true or not. Never shot any of it myself. But I feel safe in saying that if you go with Triple Seven fffg (3f) that you will be alright. It has certainly done good by me. I trust it...Okay...

[dwave]

Well, in my opinion, nothing compares to the real deal....Black Powder. Period. But in the subs department Here is how it goes for me:

Favorite to Least:
777>American Pioneer>Pyrodex

Most powerful to least:
777>Pyrodex>American Pioneer

So for the subs, I have to agree it goes to 777. Pyrodex doesn't get much in my book because it has a chemical smell to it, and it is more corrosive than BP. I love APP as a sub in my .36 colt navy clone because 777 never did that well in it. APP doesn't go very well in my Pedersoli Frontier rifle, but works fine in my CVA Bobcat. The problem that I had with it in the Frontier rifle was the powder at the end of the barrel got really hard and made loading hard. After about 6 or so inches, it was fine. My guess was that it was running out of lube in that long ol' 39 inch barrel, which goes against what is said on the bottle,"No lube required." Oh, and just from what I could tell (no chronograph) there didn't seem to be a bit of difference between regular American Pioneer and Jim Shockey's Gold.

[Rachen]

Triple 7, hands down. I used it, now I am an addict as well.

It really gets you high. High velocities, I mean.

[MCgunner]

Probably just need a higher charge volume/weight of APP to 777 or Pyrodex.

I plan to try some 777, too. Might wind up using that for hunting.

[Mark whiz]

Probably just need a higher charge volume/weight of APP to 777 or Pyrodex.

MCGunner is spot on. I found that it takes 10gr more of CleanShot, APP. Shockey's, etc to get results equal to Pyro RS. And for any given Pyro load, I use 15gr LESS 777 (ffg) for equal results.
So if you calculate this out, it takes 25gr more APP to equal a load of 777 - at least that is what testing with my Knight USAK has turned up.

[Eric F]

So when I used cleanshot in my 45-70 I used a 405 gr lead and 70 gr cleanshot with a felt wad. Everything worked great there was a moderate amount of compression on the powder I did not use a drop tube but i did vibrate the charged case to settle the powder down.
Now I am gearing up for 50-90 if I follow the same procedures will I be ok with of CleanShot, APP. Shockey's, etc making adjustments for case capacity? I really liked cleanshot due to its lack of fouling. and aparently APP is the same stuff.

[Kimber1911_06238]

When using cleanshot/APP/shockey's gold whatever else it's marketed under, don't leave to charge in the gun for too long or it'll absorb moisture and turn into a gooey paste. Don't ask me how I know.

I bought a can of this stuff to sight in a new scope on my muzzleloader. It is clean, running a dry patch through every 3 shots or so and you could shoot forever.

I don't like the sticks, the edges on the sticks aren't consistent. They are all dimpled and pockmarked. I sighted the gun in dead center, but the bullets were hitting the target are varying 6 inches up and down. It was driving me crazy. Come to find out, velocities were varying by several hundred fps.

I went back to two 50 grain pyrodex pellets. Boom!...bullet two inches high, Boom! this one right next to the other. Now pyrodex gives me something to work with :)

I'm not sure if APP/cleanshot/Shockey's gold loose powder is more consistent, I know the sticks definitely aren't.

[Mark whiz]

Yeah, the old CleanShot pellets sucked hard - REALLY inconsistent............apparently they didn't fix the problem with the powder "sticks". The loose powder is MUCH better as I did take game with it and shot some good groups, once I figured out what it took in my rifle.

I think part of the "weakness" with APP, etc is the granule size in the 2fg cut - it looks more like gravel than it does "powder"................. this causes it to take up more volume per grain. Using the smaller 3fg cut might help close the gap on Pyro/777 and it will probably make each load more consistent as well. I bought a pound of the 3fg, but just haven't found the time to experiment with it yet.

But, even if the 3fg works better - there is STILL that moisture issue to content with.................not something I'll do when the shot has to count.

[MCgunner]

Question, are you guys measuring all these charges as volume equivalent black powder when you're talkin' this or that grains or are you actually WEIGHING the charge?

[Mark whiz]

Personally, I'm strictly measuring by volume with a standard powder measure - I don't weigh my charges.
I tried weighing with Cleanshot 1 time and the shots ended up all over the place.

[Pancho]

I've only used BP and Pyrodex. I just bought some 3/7 and I'm waiting for the weather to break so I can try it.
As for APP has anyone tried putting dessicant bags in the container to absorb ambient moisture?

[dwave]

APP already has them in the container. Guess that is a bit of a tip off that it will suck water out of the air.

[JCT]

They're probably using sugar as the oxidizer, maybe fructose or glucose. That will make them very hyrgoscopic.
For all the hassle of substitutes, extra cost, chemical smell, nasty corrosive oxides.... I remind myself that black powder was good enough for everyone for a few hundred years. I still think it's the ideal powder when shooting blackpowder. Hmmm, maybe that's where the name "blackpowder shooting" came from anyway.
If everyone boycotts the substitutes, then shops will be forces to cary blackpowder again!:D

[MCgunner]

I ain't driving 200 miles to the only store in the entire state of Texas that carries BP, not an option, will never be an option. The cost of the substitutes pales in comparison to the cost of gasoline. Nobody on the planet sells BP, nobody, nowhere, anywhere, except one huge sporting goods store I heard about north of San Antonio. I can get 777 and Pyrodex 30 miles from here. The APP I have to wait until I go to Katy Mills mall Christmas shopping or something. A gun shop in a town about 50 miles from here has it. Or, I can order it. Try ordering BP, see what you'll pay in shipping even if it could be done. Nope,BP is not an option, never will be so long as the laws on transporting explosives remain as they are. I guess I could set up to make my own, but nah.

I gotta try 777 next.

[JCT]

I know, me too. No black powder in my state anymore. Used to buy it everywhere, hardware store, gun shops, fishing shops...
There's no reason for this, shop owners can still carry BP but don't because they have to buy a magazine and pay a license fee.
It's just too bad because it's such a big aspect of shooting BP, it should be more available.

[Mark whiz]

MCGunner,
You might try checking with local gun clubs/shooting ranges. Oftentimes they keep powders on hand for members and if know any members, they could maybe get you some. I know the clubs I was a part of back in FLA did this.

[Mark whiz]

repost - stupid slow computer

[MCgunner]

Well, the club I'm in here doesn't have many BP shooters. I doubt I could talk 'em into handling it. Don't know the laws involved in it. About the only option is to go buy a bulk purchase if I can find that store north of SA. But, then, I wonder if I'd get tagged as some sort of terrorist suspect if I bought 20 lbs worth. :rolleyes: Used to could just walk into any gun shop and pick up a pound. Ah, those were the days.

[JCT]

To me, people and agencies that take away rights like buying and using blackpowder, they are the terrorists. I've seen it impact many things, the CPSC would be happy if we all stayed in padded rooms 24/7.
Apparently no American is smart enough to handle guns, powder, chemicals, knives....
But the "war on drugs" is still failing miserably. The gov needs to prioritize and take care of real problems, not paranoid hypothetical non existent situations dreamt up by radical liberals.
By the way, I thought up a great a system to stop drug users and keep population down. Every state should have a special drug facilty. You want to do cocaine, no problem, come on in, do all you want!! For Free!! Must finish it all within an hour though, minimum 1 pound!!!
This keeps the streets clean, save the taxpayers billions, lowers crime..etc.
Worth a try anyway:D

[mykeal]

...Nobody on the planet sells BP, nobody, nowhere, anywhere, except one huge sporting goods store I heard about north of San Antonio...Try ordering BP, see what you'll pay in shipping even if it could be done...

What planet do you live on? Oh, I forgot. Texas. That explains it.

Goex is available from Graf's by the pound - from 1 pound up to 50 pounds. It costs $11.99/ pound. Hazmat fee is $20 for any amount up to 50 pounds. There is a $3.95 fee for 'handling and insurance', but shipping is free. They require a $30 minimum purchase, so you need to order at least 3 pounds if all you are buying is powder. So, for 3 pounds the bill is $59.92. And yes, it can be done, even from the planet Texas.

I can buy Goex from a retail dealer 45 miles away for $15.95/pound plus 6% sales tax. I get 21 mpg and pay $3.20/gal, so driving the round trip (ie, 'shipping, handling and insurance') costs $13.71. So, buying 3 pounds from the retailer costs me $64.43.

I can also buy 777 at the local gun shop/hardware store/outdoor outfitter for $22.95/pound. Gas is not an issue as I go by the shop every couple days or so on other errands anyway. So 777, for 3 pounds, is $68.85.

If you get the same mileage and pay the same amount for gas that I do, your 60 mile round trip to buy 777 costs $9.14; it will need to cost less than $23.02 per pound (including taxes) to beat Graf's mail order price even with the $20 Hazmat fee.

[JCT]

Order 45 pounds of Swiss BP from Grafs and you get a "bulk discount" which cancels out the hazmat altogether.
It ends up at $19 a pound for Swiss!! Can't beat that. Just need to get enough people in on a bulk purchase....
Otherwise, 20 pounds of Goex will ship under 1 hazmat fee, cost per pound comes in at $13 !!! I've never bought it that cheap anywhere!
If you can deal with a bulk buy, it's a great deal. When you think about it, chances are you use 3 or more pounds a year. Although I think I must average about 5-7 lbs per year, between BP guns and cartridges.

[Gaucho Gringo]

For me it is Triple 7. It is powerful and doesn't foul my Pietta 1858 Remington as much as other powders. For the posters complaining about fouling of the arbor pin on their 1858's, I suggest getting a cylinder loading stand. It takes all of about 3-5 seconds to drop the cylinder and about 5-8 seconds to reinstall the cylinder after loading it. I find it faster to load the gun using the cylinder loader, plus I have no problems with the arbor pin fouling. A lot of you have a stand that holds your guns for reloading so it is not like you don't have room for it, just trade them out in your BP kit. I have shot over 100 shots at a setting with no misfires or fouling problems. The only thing I did was run a nipple pick down the nipples about 1\2 way through.