1911 for the experienced?


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kamagong
November 29, 2007, 12:59 PM
I've read several times that 1911s are a platform for dedicated pistoleros, and not for amateurs. Why is that? I've been trying to figure it out for myself, and I've come up with a couple answers. First, the single action makes negligent discharges easier, not something you want with a newbie who hasn't yet learned the four rules. Second, the grip safety requires a proper hold on the pistol for it to fire. Also, a user unfamiliar with the thumb safety may forget to disengage it during a fight, which could obviously prove to be disastrous. Am I missing anything here?

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applekev
November 29, 2007, 01:06 PM
Many a soldier was taught how to handle a 1911, I don't see a problem.

possum
November 29, 2007, 01:09 PM
Many a soldier was taught how to handle a 1911, I don't see a problem.
this is the first thought that came to my mind as well, if it is easy enough for soliders to be able to handle and shoot then there is nothing holding anyone back. most soliders don't own guns most don't like or care to shoot, and there are few that are good with any weapon system.

Also, a user unfamiliar with the thumb safety may forget to disengage it during a fight, which could obviously prove to be disastrous.
this is why that trainning is so important and the whole train as you fight comes into play here. i suggest that you get some formal trainning there are several good places out there and i am sure that there are some local to where you live.

Chipperman
November 29, 2007, 01:13 PM
Also, a user unfamiliar with the thumb safety may forget to disengage it during a fight

That is the biggest reason in my mind. It applies to any pistol with a manual safety, not just 1911s.

DogBonz
November 29, 2007, 01:16 PM
because Cocked & Locked requires more training and practice than point and click DAO's. 1911's tend to have light trigger pulls so any minor infraction of the keep your finger off the trigger rule could result in a ND (not that I think that a DOA shooter should keep his finger on the trigger, but a 6-8 lb trigger is a little more forgiving in this regard than a 3.5-4 lb 1911 trigger). Also 1911's also typically have little to no take up, so when you move the trigger, you are really moving the trigger.

I also think that 7-8 round mags might need to be changed more than a 15 round mag, thus requiring more practice in mag swaps under pressure.

the 1911 is a great platform, but like any other requires training and practice, maybe a little more so. I'm sure you can dig up a story or two where a single action user was wounded or killed because they forgot to click off the safety in the heat of the moment.

Just my thoughts

rcmodel
November 29, 2007, 01:21 PM
First, the single action makes negligent discharges easier,Thats different then a Glock, how?


Second, the grip safety requires a proper hold on the pistol for it to fire.You want a gun that goes off without a proper hold?


a user unfamiliar with the thumb safety may forget to disengage it during a fightSwiping off the thumb safety is as automatic as sneezing if you have practiced with one enough to consider getting in a gunfight with one.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

AndyC
November 29, 2007, 01:30 PM
Handling any firearm competently & unconsciously requires familiarity through practice - the 1911 is no different.

DogBonz
November 29, 2007, 01:35 PM
Swiping off the thumb safety is as automatic as sneezing if you have practiced with one enough to consider getting in a gunfight with one.

Exactly. Training and practice. Now I think that everyone should get training and practice on a continual basis, but the reality is that a lot of folks buy a gun and a box of ammo, go home, put it in their sock drawer and it sits there for months or years at a time. These type of folks should, IMHO, get a .38 revolver or a "point and bang" type pistol- ie something that is easy and "foolproof" to use.

Just my $0.02

kamagong
November 29, 2007, 01:36 PM
Handling any firearm competently & unconsciously requires familiarity through practice - the 1911 is no different.
That's exactly what I was thinking. So why do so many people insist that the 1911 is for serious users only?

Silvanus
November 29, 2007, 01:48 PM
I agree with the above posters. You should train seriously with any gun you might need to defend yourself. Be it a 1911 or a Glock or DA/SA pistol. Train enough to get familiar with whatever type of action you choose.

DogBonz
November 29, 2007, 01:53 PM
That's exactly what I was thinking. So why do so many people insist that the 1911 is for serious users only?

Training and practice are the key for any gun. but lets consider this; the NYPD did a study on the effects of stress on AD's & ND's with some of its officers. They placed them in a simulator that was designed to play out a variety of shoot/ no shoot situations. They rigged the triggers with pressure sensors. Many (actually a very high percentage) put enough pressure on their triggers to cause the guns to fire in the no shoot situations. Not only that, but many had no idea that they put their finger on the trigger in the first place and were shocked when they watched the video footage of the tests.

And these are folks who carry a gun daily. Who get training. Who have to go through qualifications, etc...

all I'm saying is that the 1911 requires you to put in a little effort, and that some folks are just not willing or can not afford to (either time or money) to get that training.

DoubleTapDrew
November 29, 2007, 01:54 PM
First, the single action makes negligent discharges easier,

Thats different then a Glock, how?

Light crisp trigger pull isn't good when your hands are shaking and sweaty while you are quickly assessing whether to shoot or not. Glock trigger pulls are long and (hopefully) heavier.

Second, the grip safety requires a proper hold on the pistol for it to fire.

You want a gun that goes off without a proper hold?
I want a gun that goes off when I pull the trigger. I've heard about early 1911 pisteleros who strapped down the grip safety after some incidents that didn't allow them a proper grip (wrestling with a BG) and prevented them from firing.

a user unfamiliar with the thumb safety may forget to disengage it during a fight

Swiping off the thumb safety is as automatic as sneezing if you have practiced with one enough to consider getting in a gunfight with one.
True. But training is what makes the difference between experienced versus amateur. Although most everyone here knows it's a bad idea, some people never practice or train, let alone function check it with hundreds of rounds.

This is true for any gun with those features though. Maybe other reasons would be the fact it's relatively low capacity compared to wondernines and .40s, and may not have the "always work" reliability of plastic guns (although that's debatable and individual gun-specific)

That said, I'd disagree that it's a pistol for experienced shooters only, but I'd make sure anybody I helped get a gun practiced with it enough that overcoming any of those issues are second nature, regardless of what model they chose.

farscott
November 29, 2007, 01:57 PM
To me, there are three factors that set the 1911 apart from pistols designed later, such as Glocks and 3rd Generation S&W pistols. The combination of these tends to be the reason why the 1911 is often said to require more dedication than other designs.

1) It is a much harder pistol to field strip and assemble than the modern designs, especially for novices. There are more parts to clean and maintain. No one needs a bushing wrench or an allen wrench for a Glock.

2) There are more 1911 manufacturers than manufacturers of all other pistols combined. This leads to issues since not all parts are built to the same prints. In addition, the 1911 has parts not built to original design intent that result in issues, especially extractors. Extractors are probably the weakest part of the 1911 design.

3) The 1911 is the Harley-Davidson of pistols. It has been customized, tweaked, reworked, and bent in nearly 100 years of production. It has been made with three-inch barrels and seven-inch barrels and most lengths in between. There are three major magazine sizes: Government, Officer's ACP, and Detonics. It has been made with steel, aluminum alloy, and titanium alloy frames. There is a trigger for every finger, a hammer for every thumb nail, grips for every hand, and sights for every eye. It has been made in more calibers than any other gun I can think of, from .22 LR to 50 G.I. Combined with 1) and 2), the result is pistols that do not work and require the user to figure out what went wrong.

Old Dog
November 29, 2007, 02:00 PM
Here's the deal. When I was a young lad, I went to MP school and learned the 1911 from two of the Marine Corps' best instructors. Having had previous handgunning experience, I had a few bad habits to unlearn, but soon learned many solid 1911 skills, though it was probably more difficult for me than others with no previous handgun experience.

On the other hand, there were many among my class, not a few females included, no handgun experience prior to entering the military, who hadn't touched a pistol since boot camp, yet quickly mastered the platform. I think anyone can learn to use the 1911 well, IF one is going to use the platform as his/her primary sidearm ...

If it's gonna be your primary defensive/carry pistol, as others note, train and practice. If you will only use a 1911 for occasional range sessions, pay attention to what you're doing when handling and shooting it ...

So why do so many people insist that the 1911 is for serious users only?Perhaps because it is so substantially different than other handgun platforms. The (full-size or Commander size, especially all steel) 1911 tends to be heavier than other pistols, fires a serious caliber, presumes that you have mastered the manual-of-arms (unlike, say, a point-and-shoot Glock or revolver) ... The 1911 tends to be a bit more difficult to field-strip (and then reassemble) for cleaning/maintenance, sometimes a bit more fussy about ammo, definitely more fussy about magazines and simply possesses more quirks than many other modern handguns. It does require a bit more dedication to use competently, and it helps if one understands how the platform operates (especially if one experiences malfunctions).

wulfbyte
November 29, 2007, 02:14 PM
I think the difference can be viewed if you think about the difference in training to the target and training to the weapon.

Training to the target involves things that every weapons system needs, like sight alignment, sight picture, breathing, trigger squeeze and so on. You are training to get rounds on the target and you already know how to operate the particular firearm in question. This type of training needs to be ongoing and should be repeated often.

Training to the weapon however needs a larger initial investment of time and effort and then some shorter recurring training periods to maintain proficiency of operation. Operation of the particular weapons system in question needs to be mastered before you can get serious about training to the target.

Let's then compare the manual of arms from say a simple DA revolver and a 1911 (or it could just as easily be a BHP or other SA pistol). Here we are talking about just the simple operation of the firearm and not worrying about getting rounds on target.

Lets pick one thing - reaction to a failure to fire - and see what the different actions are.

In a DA revolver, squeeze the trigger again, reaction finished.

In a SA pistol, (assuming that the safety is off, even though that could also cause a failure to fire) ensure the magazine is firmly seated, pull the slide to the rear, watch for a round to be extracted/ejected (if no round is extracted, check the chamber for the presence of one), flip the pistol if need be to get the errant round to clear the ejection port, release the slide, re-acquire your sight picture, reaction finished.
Now you could compress the SA pistol reaction to failure to fire to tap,rack/flip - but unless you are very familiar with what you need to watch for, that compression won't work to train most individuals.

I believe it is clear that the level of training required to be proficient at the operation of the SA pistol is considerably higher than for the DA revolver. Again that is OPERATION, not getting rounds on target.

In getting rounds on the target, all weapons systems require training tailored to the individual using them and you can't really say that how much time it will take to approach mastery. More is always better though.

In the simple operation of the arms though, it is clear that some systems require less time and effort to master than others, regardless of the individual.

That is why the generalization is made that the 1911 requires more training and more dedication than other handguns; a simplification of the differences in the training time needed to operate the weapon proficiently under stress.

It really has nothing to do with getting rounds on target.

DogBonz
November 29, 2007, 02:16 PM
The 1911 tends to be a bit more difficult to field-strip (and then reassemble) for cleaning/maintenance

Ain't that the truth!

I remember my first time field stripping grandpa's 1911 when I was a youngster. I think it took me the better part of a half hour to find the recoil spring plug after it dented the ceiling...

Gramps laughed his butt off. Mom was, shall we say, less than impressed at the "renovations" i had made in the living room ceiling.:D

Jim Watson
November 29, 2007, 02:17 PM
I see it as a "pay me now or pay me later" type situation. You can put in the work to be sure to operate the 1911's (BHP, P210, etc, etc.) manual safety to get to a relatively light, crisp trigger pull that helps accuracy, or you can put in the work to haul through a DA that requires no setup by safety operation but requires more care in getting the shot off.
Both ways work, as I see at IDPA matches. Action type has about quit mattering as equipment and technique develop.

However, the difference is that the manual safety gun is a binary operation. Flip the "switch" and you shoot, don't flip it and you don't. This could be hazardous to your health if you are not practiced enough to hit that safety every time.

The DA gun operates on a continuum. Stroke the trigger smoothly and you get a good aimed shot; yank it and you get some sort of shot. This is acceptable to many government agencies. Qualify at the minimum or clean the course; you get the same badge.

Geronimo45
November 29, 2007, 02:21 PM
why do so many people insist that the 1911 is for serious users only?
So they can brag that they have one, and therefore must be a professional. :D

Lots of gibberish has been spewed regarding the design. Some harp on the manual safety versus the Glock's lack of same, some have trouble actuating the grip safety and harp on that (in a fight, you may have a lousy hold 'cuz you were shot with a PIAT and lost three fingers). Some think that the safety arrangement is brilliant. Others agree that you're liable to forget to disengage the safety - and, like Fairbairn in the 1930s era, have the safeties pinned, or go with different guns. If you don't have a manual safety, there's one less step in your practice routine - but no less need to practice. You don't need high-end training to learn to disengage the safety. Just practice. Dry-fire practice will do just fine. The 1911 was made as a mass-produced item for soldiers who wouldn't be given too much training in its use, not as a weapon for some special forces group that expend hundreds if not thousands of rounds out of them. You could say, in fact, that the 1911 was expressly built for the most ignorant of gun owners with a higher degree of truth. :neener:

DogBonz
November 29, 2007, 02:27 PM
I think the difference can be viewed if you think about the difference in training to the target and training to the weapon.

I think that this is the best response to the question at hand.

It really has nothing to do with getting rounds on target.

But, I think that the flip side of that is that keeping rounds off of unintended targets.

Jim Watson
November 29, 2007, 02:52 PM
the NYPD did a study on the effects of stress on AD's & ND's with some of its officers. They placed them in a simulator that was designed to play out a variety of shoot/ no shoot situations. They rigged the triggers with pressure sensors. Many (actually a very high percentage) put enough pressure on their triggers to cause the guns to fire in the no shoot situations

I believe that study showed that they got their fingers on the trigger and applied enough effort to fire ANY usual handgun, not just a 1911. In which case, the only protection against an AD would have been a manual safety, wouldn't it?

CWL
November 29, 2007, 03:05 PM
a user unfamiliar with the thumb safety may forget to disengage it during a fight

This is the biggest load of "crappola" commonly thrown out by people who haven't got a clue about proper pistol operation.

Has anyone ever "forgotten" to put their finger on the trigger? No? If you can automatically put your finger on the trigger (as well as know when not to), then swiping the thumb safety is as automatic as that.

Also, LEO-involved accidental shootings are typically done with Glocks...why is that?

Jim Watson
November 29, 2007, 03:16 PM
Uh, because Glock has about 70% of the market?

WAID
November 29, 2007, 03:27 PM
Forgetting the thumbs safety has never been a problem for me, I've always instinctively rested my thumb on it to fire. I think a lot of the "expert platform" talk is just part of the reputation the 1911 type pistols have accrued over there many years. The only real thing I can think of is that they tend to be expensive compared to certain brands, although there are some surprisingly functional bargain 1911s.

mljdeckard
November 29, 2007, 04:14 PM
I have a couple of dents in the ceiling.

Um, yes, but it's mostly psycological? Think about it this way. For many years, there was no more 'less complicated' choice for autos. If anything, DA/SA autos made them MORE complicated. The 1911 only seems more complicated now because less complicated options have been invented. (Striker/polymers with no manual safety.)

I tell my friends, go ahead and get a 1911 for your first auto. No problem. BUT, I also train soldiers. For THEM, especially very young ones with no background in firearms, and no inclination to learn anything other than military applications of firearms, (They're never going to touch another pistol after they get discharged,) I say to myself, a Glock would be perfect.

I will admit, I started carrying a 1911, and went through 'simpler' designs, before I came back full-circle to a 1911. I suppose you could say I felt my experience had 'grown me into it'.

littlegator
November 29, 2007, 04:26 PM
Re the OP, maybe the issue is because the 1911 is more about the craft than the use, which appeals to those who have more experience in firearms than newbies. By analogy, when I was younger I played trumpet. The better I got, the more I got to know the instrument's workings. When I got into college and started doing some professional work, I purchased a pretty expensive model that allowed me to change parts out, like the lead pipe and the bell, both for looks as well as for sound. I fine tuned the pistons and made some other modifications. It was fun to change the instrument out to suit my needs, and I knew every piece on it like the back of my hand. Isn't this one of the great things about the 1911? Again, by analogy, think of the AR platform. All the threads about people changing out their uppers, lowers, etc. I wish I knew what the heck they were talking about because it sounds like great fun.

Mad Magyar
November 29, 2007, 04:33 PM
The 1911 was made as a mass-produced item for soldiers who wouldn't be given too much training in its use, not as a weapon for some special forces group that expend hundreds if not thousands of rounds out of them. You could say, in fact, that the 1911 was expressly built for the most ignorant of gun owners with a higher degree of truth.

Military research on ND's bears this out....Enough of them to make your hair stand on end....M. Ayoob has written on this subject as well...Just to be clear, this was not the reason for the switch to the 9mm back in the 80's, but just one variable....:)

harrygunner
November 29, 2007, 07:18 PM
There are problems with Internet "information".

Over a decade ago, I put off buying a 1911 based on Internet dogma since I was a novice. I bought a Sig 229 instead. Great gun, no problems with it.

Then, two years later, I rented a 1911. I immediately bought one. Best thing ever. I have another one being built as I write this. Taught me a lesson about converting Internet information into intelligence.

The 1911 is the safest gun out there. In fact, if there was a shroud over the hammer, people would be complaining about the "belt and suspenders", over done safeties.

For every gun, keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot. Compare safety with the Sig and Glock I own: If I don't decock the hammer after firing the Sig, it has a 4# trigger ready to go. The Glock ALWAYS goes bang when I pull the 5# trigger.

I remember when I read of a tragic occurrence when a LEO in central California fumbled his gun and reached out to catch it. He accidentally pressed the trigger and was killed. I thought of how nearly impossible it would be for that to happen with a cocked and cocked 1911.

In addition, the trigger is the best I've felt, the thin profile is easy to carry and conceal. Very accurate gun and a potent handgun caliber.

Rent one or shoot a friend's. Decide for yourself.

tbtrout
November 29, 2007, 08:21 PM
If you want one buy it and practice with it. Take a training class if need be. I can find an excuse not to buy any handgun if you want to get technical. Practice practice practice, makes perfect

Walter
November 29, 2007, 10:26 PM
1) It is a much harder pistol to field strip and assemble than the modern designs, especially for novices. There are more parts to clean and maintain. No one needs a bushing wrench or an allen wrench for a Glock.
:cuss: I call "B.S."! I have 3 1911-type pistols, a Colt, a Springfield,
and an Au#*-Or*#%@*e (I have a hard time admitting it) but NONE
of them require an allen wrench, a bushing wrench, or any other tool
to field-strip. :p

Walter

kamagong
November 29, 2007, 11:05 PM
I already have one 1911, and have a couple more on the way. As you can tell, I'm quite fond of the design. It's a great platform, and even though I'm a newbie, I've taken quickly to it. That's what I'm confused about. If a person like me with very little firearm experience can pick it up, I think anyone should be able to. Then again, I do try and dry fire everyday and go to the range on a regular basis, where I've met a couple of good people who have helped me a lot. Maybe that's the difference?

Thanks for the input all.

2RCO
November 29, 2007, 11:11 PM
Although I may be a bit biased as one of the 1911's biggest fans. I could say that a smaller caliber handgun like a .22 is a good beginner pistol. That being said the 1911 is pretty intuitive to most shooters. Ah now a 1911 with a .22 conversion perfect for a first time shooter.

2RCO
November 29, 2007, 11:13 PM
[The 1911 was made as a mass-produced item for soldiers who wouldn't be given too much training in its use, not as a weapon for some special forces group that expend hundreds if not thousands of rounds out of them. You could say, in fact, that the 1911 was expressly built for the most ignorant of gun owners with a higher degree of truth.


Note that they will stand up to several thousand rounds and alot of Spec Ops gents use them now.

crazed_ss
November 29, 2007, 11:29 PM
I call "B.S."! I have 3 1911-type pistols, a Colt, a Springfield,
and an Au#*-Or*#%@*e (I have a hard time admitting it) but NONE
of them require an allen wrench, a bushing wrench, or any other tool
to field-strip.


1911's do take a little more effort to strip than Sigs and Glocks and such. It took me like 30 minutes when I first tried to strip and re-assemble my 1911. I can field strip it pretty quick now, but I cant put it back together if I dont have my pocket knife on me.

I need something to press the plunger down so I can get the slide stop back in. Is there a way to do this without using a tool?

Geronimo45
November 30, 2007, 12:01 AM
Note that they will stand up to several thousand rounds and alot of Spec Ops gents use them now.
Absolutely. My point was that it was made for the masses, not for the elite. Just a statement on layout and controls, not durability. Today, only the more 'elite' parts of the military have them: because they are allowed more choices than the others, not because it takes an expert to run the guns.

I need something to press the plunger down so I can get the slide stop back in. Is there a way to do this without using a tool?
Yes. I insert the pin-end first, then pull it out a tad so you can move the 'flag' without scraping the metal. Position the tooth-end of that 'flag' just below (below=towards mag release) the projecting... thingamajig from the plunger. Let the 'flag' lay down on the frame in this position, and push up (towards slide) on it. It will snap into place.

Jim Watson
November 30, 2007, 12:30 AM
Caution: Not every 1911 slide stop can be put in like Geronimo describes. They are SUPPOSED to work that way, but many of the clones, copies, knockoffs, and mutants do not adhere to specs and will require an implement. The plunger may be too long or too blunt or the shoulder in the tube may be too far in. Or the slide stop itself may not be beveled right.
Be careful and don't apply an idiot mark trying to force it. That will make you a figure of fun and reduce the resale value of the gun.

1911 guy
November 30, 2007, 07:50 AM
The 1911 was and is meant for the general masses. We've managed to dumb ourselves down with point and click shooting, though. Forget to take a safety off? So absurd I can't properly comment. But it's believed by so many on this board alone that it proves my point. It's made for the average user, but we've allowed ourselves to become lazier than the average user in out training and thinking.

10X
November 30, 2007, 10:34 AM
1911s are usable by anyone that wants to take a brief amount of time to learn about the gun. If one is going to modify the gun or deal with an improperly working gun, then expertise is needed because so many parts have to be hand fitted to work properly.

Geno
November 30, 2007, 11:39 AM
I think that the first two handguns I ever fired (same day) were a Colt 1911 and a S&W model 19. They belonged to my LEO, BIL. I never had difficulties, but then he showed me how to handle and operate each safely.

At present I own Glocks, 1911s, BHP, XDs, and many others. I have never had difficulty switching between them. We were taught in our Tactical and Advanced Tactical classes to disengage the manual safety as we drew the 1911, BHP.

Practice, practice.

Doc2005

farscott
November 30, 2007, 12:19 PM
... but NONE of them require an allen wrench, a bushing wrench, or any other tool to field-strip.Try to disassemble a new Baer pistol without a bushing wrench. Better yet, put it back together without a bushing wrench. Or to disassemble a STI TargetMaster without an Allen wrench. There are a lot of 1911s and some of them require tools to take down.

Geno
November 30, 2007, 12:26 PM
My Kimber Warrior is still so tight that I have to use tools. This 1911 is almost 3 years old and has about 1,000 rounds through it. It remains my tightest 1911 in terms of receiver & slide rails, and bushing to slide fit.

Doc2005

jabotinsky
November 30, 2007, 02:53 PM
Since most of the semiautos I see are derived from the 1911 design, I don't think it's for experienced shooters only. It's easier to control than my .40, and about average on cleaning complexity. Maybe some folks think they're for more experienced shooters because they're usually .45 and loud for a first-timer.

Walkalong
November 30, 2007, 03:44 PM
Folks who think 1911's are only for top tier, trained more than anybody else, etc, personel are full of it. I mastered it on my own at 17 and did so very quickly.

Most folks who say that are really just trying to push something else.

rcmodel
November 30, 2007, 03:53 PM
Military research on ND's bears this out....Enough of them to make your hair stand on end....There are always a few GI's in every group that are too stupid to operate a Zippo Lighter correctly.

But imagine the mass ND casualties had we issued Glocks instead of 1911's all those years!

We would be lucky to have had enough troops left to win two world wars and several police actions!

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

Blackfork
November 30, 2007, 04:03 PM
The military use of the 1911 is hardly the measuring stick. Most military folks can't shoot the 1911...or the M9. They hardly teach soldiers a thing or let them shoot.

I've taught Preliminary Marksmanship Instruction to Army folks in pistol, M16/variants, 249, 240B, Mk19, 50 cal rifle and M2 and a lot of Squad Designated Marksmanship classes in the classroom and on the range.

I don't think of the 1911 as anyones "first" pistol. Seems to me most folks would be better off with a revolver as a first gun, or a Ruger .22 autoloader, or a Glock 19. Even other 45acps- like a Sig 220 or the Glock 30, 21, et are more user-friendly than a 1911.

I wouldn't recommend a 1911 as anyones first handgun. It's not a beginners gun or a junior pistol. I would never start a first time shooter on 45acp, especially the 1911. They will develop a flinch that will take longer to untangle than it is worth. (The juniors at the National Matches and CMP/NRA matches are allowed to shoot .22 while everyone else shoots .45 n the 45 and centerfire matches.)

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