[Coffee357]

Am I the only one who feels this is a non-issue in defensive pistols? In more than 13 years on police ranges, the only time I have seen (or have had) a pistol go click, rather than bang, is when the operator forgot to chamber a round. Outside of police circles, at least 80% of the rounds that didn't go bang the first time, didn't go bang the second time. I've always felt that wasting time pulling the trigger again is time spent that should have been used to put good ammo under the hammer. Wasting time in a gunfight can be seriously hazardous to your health.

This topic is somthing that has been on my mind for some time as it seems like this or that pistol is always being bashed for not having this capability or praised for having it. Just don't see it as much of an issue myself...

Coffee

[Marko Kloos]

I think it's a non-issue. When I hear "click" instead of bang, my failure drill will be "tap-rack-bang", not a repeated pull on the trigger.

[Obiwan]

Not Important

[Hkmp5sd]

Not applicable to my CCW gun. I carry a Glock 17, so pulling the trigger again won't even give you a "click". But, as stated above, my training has always been to rack the gun instead of pulling the trigger again.

[Erich]

It's one of the reasons I got rid of my Glock 33. The primer sealant would blow back into the striker channel and would result in light primer strikes after a while. This probably isn't an issue with lower pressure cartridges, FWIW. I've experienced hard primers on milsurp ammo, but not on anything I'd carry for reals.

Cleaning the striker channel was the easy solution with my 33, but the experience of standing there with a very lightweight club made me less happy with the gun and was one of the reasons I got rid of it. I'm down with TAP-RACK-check to make sure I still need to shoot (I think Suarez has a point when he advocates not going right for the BANG without reassessing the situation), but I think the problem is that when you need a shot off, you need it off right that instant - and click-pullBANG is going to be faster than TAP-RACK-anything.

That said, my 1911 sure doesn't have second-strike capabilty. Of course, with it's big whalloping hammer, I've never had a "click" out of it. My DAO S&W 6946 doesn't have second-strike capability, and I've never had a "click" out of it, either. Something about the additional mass of the hammer whalloping the firing pin, those primers just seem to go.

So, I like the idea of second-strike capability, especially in striker-fired or low-mass hammer (LDA!) guns. And they don't usually have it. OTOH, if you aren't clogging up your firing pin/striker channel with gunk (or you're keeping it clean) and you're not using hard-primered surplus ammo, it's almost certainly not going to be an issue.

[Island Beretta]

No..

[Lone_Gunman]

Totally unimportant.

[10-Ring]

I used to think it was a nice feature...I don't anymore :)

[Brian Williams]

Yes it is a nice feature of revolvers. This is not the reason I carry Revos but make for a nice feeling to just pull the trigger instead of T, R, ?

[Coffee357]

I agree with you on the revolvers, Perfessr. Of course on the revolvers you basically are moving another (hopefully better) round under the hammer with every pull of the trigger.

Coffee

[Lone_Gunman]

Perfessr,

A misfire with a revolver only delays you having to deal with it for 5 rounds.

That is not really what is meant by second strike.

[c_yeager]

Yeah its much better than a second strike. Its a tap-rack-bang drill only you get to skip the first two steps. Of course if im shooting one of my autos im not going to waste time trying to get a round that has already failed once to fire again. Time is precious and im not going to take the chance.

[only1asterisk]

I think it is something to consider, but it is only a slight consideration.

No matter how many times you practice your clearence drills, your practice pulling the trigger much more. The odds are, under stress, shooting for your life, you are likely to pull the trigger more than once berfore you realize that you had a FTF. If the round fires the second time, you will have saved the effort of the tap, rack bang; if not, you didn't lose anything.

I know that there are people here who are well trained, and they know what to do. Even so, in the enviroment of a gunfight, you don't know what you WILL do, even if you have been there before.

Keep training and pratice those clearence drills, just don't be too dissappointed if you lock up should you ever need them.


David

[krept]

I agree with Marko

[9mmepiphany]

i've been praticing the tap-rack and bang for years because i grew up with the 1911 and that is just what we did. i was a pretty happy camper until i recently took a defensive pistol course from an instructor with both shooting ability and real world knowledge.

he advocated to "pull the trigger again, before T, R & B...and the reason given is the same as that stated by coffee357 at the beginning of this thread...the quality of modern defensive ammo.

with the quality of SD ammo being so high, it is unlikely that a round in the chamber will not ignite upon the second strike...and i can pull that trigger again pretty fast. now if you've forgotten to chamber a round...you have other problems

[GSMD Fan]

I used to think it was a nice feature.

Then I thought about it, for years I have been using a 92FS in either IPSC or IDPA.
The times I pulled the trigger and did not have a round go off I automaticly went into tap-rack-bang.

So what the heck do I care if I have a second strike capable pistol.
I never thought to use it.

Figure I never will.
;)

[Andrew Wyatt]

if your weapon has second strike capability, you're doing something wrong.

[Shake]

Some years ago I read that a large percentage (above 50%) of primers that failed to ignite on the first strike do so on the second. Don't remember the location I read this or the source.

I'm with only1asterisk on this issue though. I've practiced malfunction drills by mixing snap caps with live ammo during range sessions. My trigger finger is much quicker than my brain's response to the "click" sound (even knowing that one of the rounds in my mag will fail to fire). Invariably after dropping the hammer once, before my brain registers that I need to do a tap-rack-bang!, I pull the trigger again.

I have friends who do the same thing. I've even done it with handguns that don't have second strike capability (well, tried to pull the trigger again).

In my opinion, if I were ever to draw a handgun for self defense and had a failure to fire, I'd be far to keyed up to do a tap-rack-bang! on the first "click". Maybe I lack training, but that's just me. . .

I guess that's my long way of saying that I think second strike capability is a good thing for me.

Shake

[New_comer]

"Better have it and not use it, than not have it and need it..." or so they say.

I think this feature may have some use if ever you were ever forced to use ammo with harder-than-usual primers. If you end up doing a TRB drill for the entire magload, then the gun is inutile.

I am imagining a scenario of a duel, both left with one bullet with those hard primers in them, and one is using a USP or Sig or CZ, and the other a Glock, or Kahr, or XD.


Who do you think would win? :evil: :neener: :cool:


Hmmm... I think I'd rather have that feature in my gun. ;)

[Steve in PA]

The military were the ones who really wanted the "second strike capability".....it my not be ever used......but it doesn't hurt to have it.

[firestar]

No matter how many times you practice your clearence drills, your practice pulling the trigger much more. The odds are, under stress, shooting for your life, you are likely to pull the trigger more than once berfore you realize that you had a FTF. If the round fires the second time, you will have saved the effort of the tap, rack bang; if not, you didn't lose anything.

Well said!

For me it is a big plus but I surely wouldn't rule out a quality handgun if it didn't have this feature. Every gun I have is a compromise on something. I still haven't found the perfect CCW that had every feature I would like.

I think I would pull the trigger again before I even thought to do anything else so the second strike thing may be a life saver if someone is comming at you.

I have had a number of misfires (20-30). 95% of my misfires were using cheap ammo (Wolff and Blazer mostly) and 95% of these were able to fire after a second hit to the primer. From my experience almost all initial misfires will detonate on a second hit. Perhaps this is why I feel that second strike capability is more important than other people do.

The way I look at defensive guns is, I picture a bad guy trying to shoot me and I think of all the things that could go wrong to his gun. The gun that has the least that can go wrong and is the most simple is the one that will kill you more often. That is the gun that I want if I have to defend myself. I assume that I am going to be under crazy stress and my I.Q. will probably drop by at least 50 points so I don't want to be the guy that got killed because he forgot to take the safety off or because it didn't have second strike capability or whatever. K.I.S.S. is my moto whenever I can. I am looking into a snubbie as a carry gun because I have found that the smaller you make an auto, the less reliable it tends to get.

[Erik]

"Is repeat strike capability over-rated?"

Very much so.

Tap-rack-BANG like your life depends on it. It may.

[Erik]

Tap-rack-BANG is universal, by the way. Also, absent a breakage (we aren't talking about breakages), it always works.

[Coronach]

I think it might be nice to have, if you must be saddled with a DA/SA anyway. I freely admit that if I have a fail-to-fire I tend to pull the trigger again, before I shift into T-R-B.

However, if I had a choice between and DA/SA and a SA with a nice trigger but no second strike capability, I'd choose the SA every time.

Mike

[Logistar]

if your weapon has second strike capability, you're doing something wrong.:confused:

1. If your LAST ROUND fails to ignite... yeah, I'd LIKE it then...:what:
2. It gives you an option (see #1) that you do NOT have to use if you don't want to.
3. Makes dry firing a LOT easier!!!!!!

Having said that, it isn't a major thing but I like second-strike capability. Using it should depend on the situation.

Logistar

(BTW- I have had 3 failures to fire in the last couple of years. (3 different guns). I pulled the trigger a second time for 2 of them and both rounds fired. The third misfire I ejected (no second-strike capability). I still have it and will try it again next time I go to the range. 3 rounds isn't too scientific but I think the option of a second-strike is a good one based on what I have seen.)

[444]

I can see both sides of the argument. I have had FTF from bad ammo and never attempted to squeeze the trigger again (that I remember). I taped, racked, and rolled. I consider this to be the method of choice for several reasons; it works on every magazine fed weapon (same drill for an AR15 or an AK as it is for a 1911 or a Glock), if you do have the ability to repeat strike and it doesn't work you are going to tap rack and roll anyway, tap rack and roll solves more problems than just bad ammo such as a magazine that is not seated or a slide that is not in battery. If you attempt a second strike and the weaopn is out of battery or the mag isn't seated, you have done nothing but delay getting back in the fight. It has been mentioned that under stress we might not be thinking clearly etc. That is all the more reason to have one standard malfunciton drill rather than relying on something you have to think about. If you automatically squeeze the trigger anyway, nothing is lost. But under stress, you fall back to your training, and that malfunction drill needs to be as simple as possible. If you have a FTF, you tap rack and roll, this will solve many problems without trying to analyze what happened. The repeat strike only complicates things and you now have two malfunction drills instead of one = more to think about, more to go wrong, more time wasted.
I have never been in a gunfight, let alone been in a gunfight and had a malfuction, but I have been under some stress and had a malfunction and seemed to immediately tap rack and rolled. I was at a pistol class recently and had a FTF (turned out to be a magazine that wasn't fully seated). As soon as I had the FTF, I began my malfunction drill; one of the instructors saw my FTF and immediately began telling me to clear it but as soon as he started to speak, he realized that I was half done with the drill and we hadn't even covered malfuctions in the class yet. I have had malfunctions in matches and cleared them almost without conscious thought. I feel pretty confident in the tap rack and roll. Now if I could only remember to rotate my shoulders in for a good Weaver stance I woudl be so much better off.

[444]

>

[MessedUpMike]

Would I sound stupid if i said I've never tried to fire the same round twice. My CZ is second strike capapble, but it's never had a FTF, and the only FTF I've experience with my AR where due to S&B ammo, and when it won't fire it AIN'T FIRING:barf: :barf: :barf:

oddly enough S&B is CZ "proof" ammo, and the only S&B round my CZ will ever see

[Shake]

Not stupid. . . just messed up. . :D

Shake

[litework]

I think it's overated. How many battle rifles have repeat strike capability? Why is it so important on a handgun? I would rather have the feature on a bolt action rifle when you're dealing with large volumes of powder. I've never had a misfire with a bolt action rifle, but I can envision myself waiting "days" nervously pointing the gun down range before I opened the action.