9mm better than 45 acp for defense???


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GCO
November 30, 2007, 03:01 AM
Seems like the majority of people I've encountered think the .45 is a much better defensive caliber than anything smaller. However, about a week ago I encountered a group--a few LEO's, one NRA instructor, a few gun enthusiasts, and a former Marine/current gun shop owner--who said they favored 9mm's because:

- 9mm has "much" better penetration because of its much higher velocity. One said he'd heard of .45's not being able to penetrate car doors. (theboxotruth.com shows otherwise, but does show .45 going through about half as many phone books as 9mm.)
- 9mm causes "much" more devastation. Several said they'd shot cinder blocks, etc. and 9mm's would pulverize the blocks whereas .45's usually just took chunks out.
- 9mm is more accurate.
- Blackwater personnel prefer 9mm instead of .45.
- 9mm+P+ is about the same as .357 magnum (thanks to ammo improvements in the last 20 years). I told this to another gun shop guy--he thought it was a joke. 9mm is the same diameter as .357 though...

Other points they made (less recoil, cheaper ammo) I agree with. Then I've got a lot of anecdotes on the other side of the coin, including:

- 9mm's overpenetrate
- 9mm's do minimal damage. One gun shop guy related a story of cops dispatching a bear--one guy unloaded 9mm's causing minimal impact; another pulled out his .45 and put "big holes" in the bear, putting it down. (One of the former group called this BS.)
- The military hates 9mm and wants to (or is) switch to .45. Of course, they're allowed to only use FMJ.

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Geronimo45
November 30, 2007, 03:16 AM
- Blackwater personnel prefer 9mm instead of .45.
This is likely much less to do with stopping power and much more to do with keeping the same ammunition as the military for simplified logistics.
- The military hates 9mm and wants to (or is) switch to .45.
Some of the soldiers who used the 1911 during WWII hated the thing for various reasons. It is almost a requirement that the soldier hate some element of the gear he is given - and since not many have experience with the 1911 today, there's less complaining about it.

Overpenetration/hard surface penetration:
These two may have nothing to do with each other. The 5.56, excellent at armor penetration, has less chance of overpenetration than .45 FMJ. The 9mm is also superior to the .45 in armor penetration, and I have heard that .45 FMJ will go through more ballistic gelatin (simulating human muscle tissue or some such) than 9mm FMJ will, which probably explains the bear story - the 9mm may not've made it to the vitals.
What's more, the theory now is that you want overpenetration (to a degree). You want an entrance wound and an exit wound.

The 9mm vs .45 debate has been going on steady for... at least 20 years. No clear answer to it. Professional folks carry 9mm and they carry .45. You'll be pretty well served with either if you do your part.

R&J
November 30, 2007, 03:17 AM
On Glock Talk, I once saw a photograph of a corpse, a perp, who had taken something like thirty-nine (not sure of that number, but it was up there!) 9 mm rounds before he cooperated and bled to death. True, not one shot hit center mass. Not one shot was a throat or head shot--at least not "clean".

I've never seen nor heard of a perp that required "thirty-nine" rounds of .45 ACP to incapacitate him.

It's true, 9 mm is faster (supersonic) and flater flying than the pudgy .45 ACP. But the .45 ACP makes big sloppy holes and shatters bone. It's a proven man stopper, and has probably "stopped" more bad guys than any other caliber to date.

I've got both a G17 and G21. While I don't feel under gunned with my G17, my G21 is my bedside gun...

--Ray

mikec
November 30, 2007, 03:20 AM
9mm is more accurate... Back when the US military went to the M9 there were questions by the bullseye shooters who were wondering how they could get 9's AS accurate as their .45ACPs. I stopped hanging around the bullseye people shortly there after, not sure how many have switched to the 9x19.

Blackwater has people operating in a war zone and probably getting some supplies from the US military. (I do not know for sure.) Anyway, they are operating in a war zone where 9x19 is common, .45ACP is less common.

9x19 ball has a less then stellar reputation. Luckily, I can load the 9's I own with JHPs.

surjimmy
November 30, 2007, 03:29 AM
The 45 is a fight stopper end of story... I'm not bad mouthing the 9mm, but where ever u hit a bad guy with a 45 ends the fight.

Geronimo45
November 30, 2007, 03:30 AM
I've never seen nor heard of a perp that required "thirty-nine" rounds of .45 ACP to incapacitate him.
Partly because there aren't many high-cap .45s, and because police don't seem to have taken to .45s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Gusenberg
Once the men's backs were all turned, facing the wall, two other men of Capone (with civilian clothes) entered the room with machine guns and, along with the "cops", cut loose on the seven men, pounding 70 bullets into them in what would become known as the St. Valentine's Day Massacre.

When police arrived at the scene Frank Gusenberg, despite having 22 bullet wounds, was the only victim still alive. He was taken to the Alexian Brothers hospital in Elk Grove Village, Illinois. When asked "Who shot you?" Frank replied, "Nobody shot me" denying any justice to the murderers.
Thompsons and a shotgun were used. Shotgun fired twice.

Soybomb
November 30, 2007, 03:42 AM
My take is either will be fine if you get good hits.

Here's the data straight from winchester on what all 4 of their standard pressure service caliber loads do through different barriers, take a look at it, see what you think you might be needing to shoot through and decide if there is difference enough for you to want to switch caliber.

http://cyber-byte.com/photos/rangercomparison.jpg

Euclidean
November 30, 2007, 03:48 AM
Oh God, make it stop! Make it stop!

:cool:

Walter W.
November 30, 2007, 03:59 AM
I do not want to be shot by either .45 or 9mm! FMJ, JHP, and SWC would all suck.

Blarelli
November 30, 2007, 04:06 AM
I've stopped listening to all the caliber arguments. I think anything 9mm and above is enough. After that, it is about shot placement.

Robert Hairless
November 30, 2007, 04:14 AM
Oh God, make it stop! Make it stop!

Can't take it, huh? If you crumble during the caliber wars how can we trust you to make it through a Carolyn McCarthy speech or the Obama/Clinton campaigns?

Euclidean
November 30, 2007, 04:50 AM
Can't take it, huh? If you crumble during the caliber wars how can we trust you to make it through a Carolyn McCarthy speech or the Obama/Clinton campaigns?

Rebuttal: all three are morons and as such I ignore what they have to say at this point (but not the danger they pose). But you're quite right I can't stand to listen to any of them talk for more than 2 seconds.

But I'll be serious for a second here.

ALL HANDGUN CARTRIDGES SUCK. NONE OF THEM HAVE ENOUGH POWER, NO GUN HOLDS ENOUGH ROUNDS, ETC. ETC.

Pick one you think might suck the least and just run with it.

Mad Magyar
November 30, 2007, 08:50 AM
I encountered a group--a few LEO's, one NRA instructor, a few gun enthusiasts, and a former Marine/current gun shop owner--who said they favored 9mm's because:

Sounds like a group you'd meet at a gun shop BS'ing and probably have something to sell or trying to impress a newbie....
Someone needs to be concerned about the "individual" behind the gun in regards to his training/intent and how you will react to the situation rather than the caliber....:)

Walkalong
November 30, 2007, 10:31 AM
.45 ACP is better than 9MM. Period.

I do not want to get shot with either, and a 9MM through the heart would be really bad, but the .45 is still better. :cool:

Jayb
November 30, 2007, 10:50 AM
Unless you can put the shot where you want it, caliber is not relevant. A hit with a .22 LR beats a miss with a .45 every time. These caliber discussions will continue, and continue, and continue........ et al :banghead:

Geno
November 30, 2007, 11:16 AM
The following videos will help the viewer make an informed decision regarding this thread's very question:

1) Deadly Weapons: Firearms and Firepower, ANITE Productions.

2) Deadly Effects: Wound Ballistics, ANITE Productions.

They are graphic videos, but excellent and professionally created.

Doc2005

Kimber1911_06238
November 30, 2007, 11:25 AM
.45/9mm is better based on your PERSONAL OPINION

birdbustr
November 30, 2007, 11:28 AM
If you are worried about what to carry, 9mm or .45, then go the middle route with a .40cal. It's supposed to be the best of both worlds.

I don't know about the accuracy thing either. It does seem to be easier to get tighter groups with smaller caliber weapons. I think that is due in large part to recoil and the shooter, but truly one is no accurate than the other.

slabuda
November 30, 2007, 11:30 AM
either will work as will any other caliber carried by LE if you hit the right spot--just pick what ever is reliable, fits your hand well and you shoot accurately

why do I choose .45? I dont know nostalgia may be one reason?

the main one i think is if a round wont expand for what ever reason (heavy clothing/glass etc.) its a .45 regardless and starts heavy. others only expand to/past .45 after expansion and start at a lower weight. I figure something big and heavy is better than small and light if it may not expand and may possibly loose some mass. Id rather start ahead of the curve


edited to add id be happy to carry any of the above ie 9mm .357sig .40 .45 in an auto loader pistol

MCgunner
November 30, 2007, 11:32 AM
I don't think my .45 and it's 400 ft lbs (I could get over 500 out of it with +P loads, but don't see the need) is any more effective for self defense than my 9mm pocket sized Kel Tec at 410 ft lbs with a +P load. Both use modern bullets. Thing is, I don't like to carry daily IWB and that KT fits a pocket easily. So, guess which caliber I rely on most. Actually, I'm perfectly happy with a 158+P .38 special. I can shoot all these weapons well and hit what I want to hit even out to 25 yards if necessary. Hell, I plink at a 12" gong at 100 yards with the .38 all the time just for fun. HITTING YOUR TARGET is more important than energy or bullet diameter or momentum or how ever you define "knock down power" as if there was such a thing. Don't rely on the hardware is all I'm saying. Carry something big enough, but that you know you'll carry every day. .380 is getting on the low side, but if a P3AT is as big as your dress allows, carry it and be happy! Just be sure the software is up to the hardware. .357 magnum is a GREAT powerful caliber, but if you flinch, can't handle the flash bang out of your 12 ounce unobtainium revolver, it's pretty worthless unless you just get lucky. I don't like to rely on luck.

I've yet to find a .45 I can pocket. The P11 is about as big as a pocket gun gets for me. I carry a .38 J frame ultralite a lot. I recently put down 3 hogs in a hog trap with that .38 and the penetration on one of 'em impressed me so much, I'm sorta warm and fuzzy with the old .38 now. :D It's a real easy gun to shoot and hit with (for me, some don't like snubbies, but I shoot it well), is easy to pocket, and is plenty powerful enough if you can place that 158 grain chunk-o-lead.

Just Jim
November 30, 2007, 11:40 AM
:neener: Well I hate to be a stick in the mud but I don't think it is as much about caliber as it is the vehicle that delivers it. 9MM is great if you have a bullet hose to send em at your target. The guy with all the 9mm holes in him found out 9s kill even if it takes a full mag to do so.:banghead::banghead:

jj

MCgunner
November 30, 2007, 11:43 AM
I tell ya what, you willin' to stand there and take ONE +P nine center mass? Not me.

lee n. field
November 30, 2007, 11:50 AM
- Blackwater personnel prefer 9mm instead of .45.

OOoooooo! Real operators. OOoooooo.

a few LEO's, one NRA instructor, a few gun enthusiasts, and a former Marine/current gun shop owner

OOooo-key. Whatever.

who said they favored 9mm's because:

What do actual fights stopped & threat neutralized statistics say?

This is an ancient argument. Seeing as how your post count is currently as of this writing 2, I'm guessing you haven't been around THR long. Use the search -- you'll find endless and fruitless discussion on it. It tends to go something like this:

"9" "45" "9!" "45!" "penetration!" "great big hole!" "old fart!" "pansy!"

With sometimes other numbers (like .40 and .357) thrown in.

You'll notice I haven't said which (if any) I favor.

Stephen A. Camp
November 30, 2007, 12:01 PM
Since we have another 9mm vs. 45 thread going, folks wanting to participate are asked to not let this thread degenerate as is so common when any two caliber comparisons seem to come up.

Thanks in advance.

NASCAR_MAN
November 30, 2007, 12:04 PM
Seems like the 45 vs 9mm vs 10mm crap got started when a few FBI guys in Miami went up against a couple of guys with semi-auto rifles and shotguns. All of a sudden, the FBI figured out that..."Gee, my pistol isn't near as deadly as a semi-auto rifle!" Duh...your pistol ain't a Star Trek Death Ray Capt Kirk!

Nevertheless, talk about "Penetration" and "Stopping Power" became the norm - and the fact that the agents went up against guys with vastly superior firepower (and accuracy!!!) was still ignored.

Point is this...get a pistol that you can "Hit" with. Only "Hits" count. And, if you see a guy with a rifle or shotgun - and all you have is a pistol - then RUN unless you are one hell of a shot!

NASCAR

lee n. field
November 30, 2007, 12:25 PM
Since we have another 9mm vs. 45 thread going,

We should always have one caliber war thread going, like a pot of stew on the stove.:rolleyes:

Maybe just relentlessly merge all those threads into one giant multithousand post 9vs45vs40vs357vs"you all suck it's .25ACP 'hail of lead' all the way" megathread.

the pistolero
November 30, 2007, 01:14 PM
I wouldn't want to get hit with either, but I'd be inclined to just split it down the middle with some sort of 10mm loaded with Silvertips or Georgia Arms or Double Taps. For what it's worth, I don't think I'll ever quite understand the argument that "they both suck because they're handgun rounds." I can't help but think that's akin to saying a hammer isn't any good because it isn't a drill press. Two different tools for two different jobs...but maybe that's just me.

High Planes Drifter
November 30, 2007, 01:30 PM
The knight is more important than the sword. Find a handgun that you're comfortable with and can use proficiently; then stick with it. Caliber should be far down on the list when searching for this gun.

jonboynumba1
November 30, 2007, 01:42 PM
people spend endless YEARS debating this...I've carried 9mm,40, .45acp I preffer 9mm OR .45 generally though .40 is a good caliber to. They all do roughly the same thing and are all far more alike than they are different. Especialy compared to a .223 carbine or shotgun...which is nuclear in power comparatively. Then you have guys debate the same thing on .223 vs .308 (oddly I favor the smaller .223 in that arena...with apropriate ammo)

Bottom line is shoot the gun that feels and points the best for you in the largest caliber you can shoot with comfort. If cheap practice is a major issue get a 9mm (or better yet get a .22 kit for either one...shoot 200 rounds through it to warm up then swap (after a break)to your major caliber once you correct smaller issues!)

They all do the same thing...you may end up putting 3-5 rounds into a BG with a 9mm vs 2-3 with a .45....capacity offsets any differences anyway in most cases. I would be comfortable with a 9mm Glock with 124gr +P gold dot a .40 with corbon 135gr +P but do generally preffer my daily beater 1911 with good ole' 230gr HP. That is bases most largely on the fact that I shoot this gun the most and the best. And that there is a busy street outside the front of the shop...if I drop somebody I feel "slightly" better about 230gr HP maybe geting stopped in the BG or glass/wall/door before it gest to the street. But mostly I shoot it better so that's what I pack.

mgregg85
November 30, 2007, 01:46 PM
9mm is only greater if you consider cost.

Whirlwind06
November 30, 2007, 01:57 PM
The 45 is a fight stopper end of story... I'm not bad mouthing the 9mm, but where ever u hit a bad guy with a 45 ends the fight.

Yep hit em on the tip of the finger and it blows his arm clean off at the shoulder!
Cauterizes the wound too!

Find the gun/caliper the works for you and practice. Forget about all of the other malarkey

NASCAR_MAN
November 30, 2007, 02:07 PM
Here's one gauranteed to stop them all...except for "Hortas" - they don't work so well on living rocks. (no doubt these are "illegal" in **********)

http://blog.tmcnet.com/blog/tom-keating/images/kirk-phaser.jpg

Wayne G.
November 30, 2007, 02:21 PM
- 9mm has "much" better penetration because of its much higher velocity. Are they/you sure about that? References?

.45 going through about half as many phone books as 9mm. I hope I never get attacked by a stack of phone books! You want it for defense or phone books?

- 9mm causes "much" more devastation. Several said they'd shot cinder blocks, etc. and 9mm's would pulverize the blocks whereas .45's usually just took chunks out. Again, same as phone books.

- 9mm is more accurate. PLEASE!

- Blackwater personnel prefer 9mm instead of .45. And choosy moms choose Jif but I like Peter Pan.

- 9mm+P+ is about the same as .357 magnum (thanks to ammo improvements in the last 20 years). I told this to another gun shop guy--he thought it was a joke. 9mm is the same diameter as .357 though... and 45+p is about the same as the wrath of God! Just kidding. They're all pistol calibers and are limited as such.

- 9mm's overpenetrate Bull! Step away from the phone books!

- 9mm's do minimal damage. Bull.

One gun shop guy.. And one gun shop guy told me that Bushmasters were the nicest AR's made!

- The military hates 9mm and wants to (or is) switch to .45. What military? Who hates? The former marine/gun shop commando?

Practice with what you carry and carry with what you practice. You know what's on my hip right now? A 9mm! I have no doubt about my ability with this pistol and caliber. A miss with a 9, 40, or 45 is a miss. On the flip, a hit with a 9, 40, or 45 will yield about the same--they are ALL pistol calibers and suck! Don't worry so much about what the gun shop commandos say.

sterling180
November 30, 2007, 02:26 PM
From playing the Swat series of games (Spinoff from the Police Quest series.) by Seirra,the LAPD Swat Merto Division,said that the .45 ACP cartridge has a greater 'knock-down power than the 9mm Parabellum cartridge,but there isn't a high-capacity option,as opposed to the standard-issue 92F.So,If I lived in the USA,I would choose the .45 over the 9mm Parabellum,in terms of 'knock-down' power,but I'd have both guns anyway,because I just love .45s and 9mms-as do alot of folks.:):)

Unfortunately for me,the days of owning a real .45 ACP Colt,over here are long since gone,but it's still good to read about them and see them in action,from time to time.

mavracer
November 30, 2007, 02:36 PM
IMHO 9mm is much better when I carry my P7 psp or tauri 905 cause 45s won't fit but if I'm carrying my 1911 or AMT backup 45s are way better cause 9mm will fall out the end of the BBL.

sterling180
November 30, 2007, 02:44 PM
- The military hates 9mm and wants to (or is) switch to .45. I don't quite know where this person got their information from,but the .45 retired from 'official' service in 1985 replaced by the 9mm Parabellum Beretta M92F,but there are those Military units that prefer them over the 9-mm and they included The Navy SEALS,Marine Corps and others.I think that the switch to the 9mm was about NATO standardisation,or thats what I read,in a US armed forces summary,dated 1986.Is this correct?

lee n. field
November 30, 2007, 02:46 PM
And choosy moms choose Jif but I like Peter Pan.

From playing the Swat series of games

Choosy Counterstrike players choose Desert Eagle.:rolleyes:

mpmarty
November 30, 2007, 02:55 PM
Inasmuch as wars are no longer won or lost by pistols, the US military adopted the NATO standard 9mm for its normal duty requirements. Specialist groups, those who actually may USE a pistol for killing people dumped the nine years ago and didn't even look at the 40, going straight to the 45acp. You make up your own mind as to what that means. Yes, 9mm is an adequate self defense round. A 22 rimfire kills more deer in Oregon than any other caliber because it is the poachers favorite. I still prefer something with a bit more punch.

sterling180
November 30, 2007, 02:57 PM
Choosy Counterstrike players choose Desert Eagle
No,I didn't the modern 'SWAT',I mean't the original SWAT game,featuring current and retired SWAT LEO's,who were talking about the history and equipment of the LAPD Swat,in the training section.By the way,the information is consulted by the 'professional' consultants,who were used to help create the game,giving it a more realistic touch,to it.If they say a .45 ACP,in a CQB or in this case a self-defence scenario,is better than a 9-mm,then it is-after all they are the experts in their fields.

Sistema1927
November 30, 2007, 03:21 PM
Gee, I wonder why we have never had a thread on this topic before?

takhtakaal
November 30, 2007, 03:32 PM
I'm beginning to think all forums should automatically cornfield for review anything that has both "45" and "9mm" in the thread title.

I'd much rather not get hit by either. Call me "caliber agnostic."

AndyC
November 30, 2007, 03:43 PM
Quote:- Blackwater personnel prefer 9mm instead of .45.

OOoooooo! Real operators. OOoooooo.
Darnit - beat me to it ;)

Liko81
November 30, 2007, 04:34 PM
Here's that age-old debate; It's been around almost as long as the ammo has. It may be cultural or "us vs them" in origin - German service handguns in both world wars were 9mm (Luger and P38) while the U.S. used the trusty 1911 - but I digress.

Penetration (how far the bullet goes) is only half the equation of a round's effectiveness. Permanent cavity (how much tissue it carves out as it goes through Sparky the BG) is the other. If penetration were the key, the only rounds worth anything for tactical use would be .22WMR and .17HMR, both of which are easily supersonic rounds and will go through several feet of ballistic gelatin.

There are valid points in both camps. 9mm guys say that a 9mm round, though lighter, is given more than enough energy to penetrate through the BG's entire body, and advances in hollow-point technology allow a 9mm to damage as much if not more tissue than a .45 while still penetrating. The .45ACP faithful maintain that simple is best; a 9mm round may or may not expand and no matter how likely it is to do so, there is always the chance it won't. A FMJ .45 slug doesn't NEED to expand to do massive damage to soft tissue, and it has the mass to shatter bone and continue past, still doing damage, where a 9mm, especially a hollow-point, is likely to simply lodge in the bone. In the case of hollow-points, a .45JHP will do yet more damage, however a JHP .45 does not have the impetus for the same penetration that a JHP 9mm would.

It all comes down to what you feel comfortable with, and also to cost. 9mm is cheap; most other handgun calibers are at least half again as expensive per round, including .45ACP. A 9mm also holds more rounds and kicks less than a .45 (these are dependent on comparative gun design; a compact polymer-frame 9mm is gonna have some upward oomph while a 1911 in .45 has more mass for less kick). This allows you to put more rounds into a BG in a shorter time (4-5 as opposed to 2-3, and fewer reloads if S really HTF). A .45ACP, if you can handle the kick, is a more massive round that does more damage per shot. This allows you to save some money over premium 9mm defense loads by spending $15 on 50 Winchester FMJs rather than $25 on 20 premium JHPs. (but the 9 still wins on plinking cost - target-grade FMJ would be $7/50 for white box). .45s also generally are arranged with single-stack magazines resulting in narrower grips, making them better for concealed carry and smaller hands at the cost of reduced capacity. This isn't always the case; the Glock 21 and 30 have staggered mags similar to a 9mm, giving 15-16 rounds of .45ACP goodness per mag (10 in the 30's compact mag).

9mm Luger ammo predates WWI (almost 100 years of military service), and serves a large portion of civilians, LEOs and now the U.S. Army. It's good enough for government work (literally) and many people trust their lives to it. .45ACP is also a venerable cartridge, and for over 80 years U.S. soldiers refused to have anything less on their hip. Many LEOs still use it, and 90% of the gun shop employees I've seen who carry in the store sport a cocked and locked 1911 in .45ACP.

In short, pick one and get good with it. Either round, used effectively, will persuade Sparky to cease his criminal activity and crumple to the floor with frightening speed.

Walkalong
November 30, 2007, 04:39 PM
These caliber discussions will continue, and continue, and continue........ et al :banghead:
Yep... WE still do. :neener:

Although I have stated .45 is better in all of these threads, I carry a .22 mag or a .32 Auto more than my .45. BUT...The .45 is still better.

lee n. field
November 30, 2007, 04:46 PM
Choosy Counterstrike players choose Desert Eagle
No,I didn't the modern 'SWAT',I mean't the original SWAT game,featuring current and retired SWAT LEO's, etc. etc. etc.

My comment was a joke, not intended necessarily to be accurate. Note the smiley attached to that and other of my posts in this thread. (:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:). I don't think much of caliber war threads, and intend to mock them.

Taking purchase advice from the original poster's list of sources makes only slightly more sense than taking gun advice from plump and pale gamers blinking in the sunlight after emerging from their apartment in their mom's basement.

Speaking of mockery, maybe we should ask these guys for their opinion:

How's 'bout it guys -- nine or forty five?

http://www.extremeshockusa.com/gfx_splash/top_2.jpg

Here's one gauranteed to stop them all...except for "Hortas" - they don't work so well on living rocks. (no doubt these are "illegal" in **********)


Maybe we should have a Star Trek(R) vs. Babylon 5(R), phaser TOS vs. phaser NG vs. PPG thread.

GCO
November 30, 2007, 05:02 PM
Taking purchase advice from the original poster's list or sources makes only slightly more sense than taking gun advice from plump and pale gamers blinking in the sunlight after emerging from their apartment in their mom's basement.
If seeking gun-buying advice from LEO's, NRA instructors, military, gun enthusiasts, and gun shop salesman doesn't make sense then, pray tell, who does?

Soybomb
November 30, 2007, 05:11 PM
From playing the Swat series of games
I love this thread :D

A FMJ .45 slug doesn't NEED to expand to do massive damage to soft tissue
http://cyber-byte.com/photos/calibers.gif
Massive!

19-3Ben
November 30, 2007, 05:15 PM
Agntsa

R&J
November 30, 2007, 06:10 PM
Perhaps anecdotal, but in general, I have noticed that at fifty feet, .45 ACP leaves a big, "sloppy" hole in a pepr target, compared to the "neat" hole punched (in order of neatness) by:

. .357 Sig
. 9X19 mm
. 10 mm
. .40 S&W
. .45 ACP

The pudgy .45 ACP (one of my favorites) leaves holes like high speed gravel was used instead of ordinance. :scrutiny:

Another Observation: My G21 in 10 mm mode, using 135 gr Double Tap ammo, "out booms" all of the above, and the bullet ballistics (1600 fps, 767 ft/lbs) out performs most .357 magnum rounds. Gel tests on this ammo are outright "nasty". Upon reflection, this is the baddest set up I have. ;)

--Ray

Jayb
November 30, 2007, 06:18 PM
Complete article.........

FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin... Oct 2004 (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2194/is_10_73/ai_n7577583/print)


CONCLUSION

Just as in the days of the American Old West when only the peace officers' superb gun-handling abilities stood between them and the violent outlaws of their time, today's law enforcement professionals still must rely on their firearm skills to protect their communities from similar lawlessness. Employing deadly force against another human being is not an easy choice, nor should it be. However, when an individual is intent on causing grave bodily injury, even death, to officers sworn to uphold this nation's laws, those officers must react responsibly and quickly to protect their communities and to avoid the loss of innocent lives, as well as their own.

The perpetuation of the one-shot drop by movies and television programs has no place in the real world of violent criminals bent on their destructive missions. Officers must realize that they have to continually hone their survival skills, always expect the unexpected, and never give up; they must protect themselves to protect their communities.

RPCVYemen
November 30, 2007, 06:19 PM
One gun shop guy related a story of cops dispatching a bear--one guy unloaded 9mm's causing minimal impact; another pulled out his .45 and put "big holes" in the bear, putting it down.

If you go bear hunting with a 45 ACP, can I have your permission to take out a life insurance policy before you go? :)

Mike

6_gunner
November 30, 2007, 06:36 PM
I tell ya what, you willin' to stand there and take ONE +P nine center mass? Not me.

Nope, but I wouldn't stand there and take one .22 short to the center of body mass, either. Dosen't mean I'd trust my life to one. :neener:

Having said that, everybody just carry whatever you want and shut up about it!!!







(cough .45 cough) :evil:

ArfinGreebly
November 30, 2007, 06:38 PM
Oh, Gawd, stop!

:neener:

You guys are killin' me!

I'm going to invoke The Litany Of Tamara!

You knew it was coming.

It would probably have been posted earlier, but evidently Steve hasn't seen this thread . . .

... Don't forget that SIGs rust, 1911s jam, USPs break firing pins, Delta Elites crack their frames, Glocks explode like cheap firecrackers, and Berettas break their locking blocks right before putting the back half of the slide through your bridgework.

Also, 9mm won't do anything but tick 'em off, .45 is too powerful to control, ammo can be corrosive and not loaded to spec. Finally, in the end, you'll always miss anyway.

The faster most folks realize that all guns suck, the happier they'll be.

-Adapted from Tamara

the pistolero
November 30, 2007, 06:59 PM
One gun shop guy related a story of cops dispatching a bear--one guy unloaded 9mm's causing minimal impact; another pulled out his .45 and put "big holes" in the bear, putting it down.
If you go bear hunting with a 45 ACP, can I have your permission to take out a life insurance policy before you go?

Mike

Funny you should mention that, Mike...I actually got a referral to my blog from a Google search for "Ammo to stop bears Rugar P90 (http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=Ammo%20to%20stop%20bears%20Rugar%20P90&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)" (and that was the original spelling). First thing that popped in my mind? "ya might wanna bring more gun, Sparky..." :D

possum
November 30, 2007, 07:32 PM
there are often 2 trains of hought for the 9mm vs. .45 the whole small and fast vs. big and slow. but then you have to revert back to the whole shot plaement deal, it dosen't matter what you are shooting of you don't hit your target. then there are the folks that prefer capacity. i like the 9mm for the low cost of ammo and because the 9mm rd defensive ammo has come a long way and there are ome exceptional lods that are battle proven. i believe that you get more trainning and shooting for your dollar with the 9mm which will aid in your ability to hit the target not only that but where you need to to achieve the win in gu fight. i wouldn't hesitate to carry either rd in a defensive situation, i am more of a .40 man but that is what i was raised on, ad i reload and have so much brass and trainned with my .40 guns so much that it would be waste to change now.

CWL
November 30, 2007, 07:41 PM
- 9mm is more accurate.

I just reread this line and laugh every time...

76shuvlinoff
November 30, 2007, 08:18 PM
So I bought a short single stack ported .45, didn't like it,
Bought a 4" dbl stack 40, got bored then bought a 4" dbl stack .45, well I couldn't cc it.
Bought a 3" dbl stack 40, Hey THAT works!
Bought a 5" single stack 45, works too!. Figurered I was all set but then I thought I was missing out on something again so....
I bought a 9mm conversion for the 40 and a .22 conversion for the .45

true story.

Gawd I am confused but I should have the perfect caliber in there for ..... something? :banghead:

orionengnr
November 30, 2007, 09:50 PM
I'm not bad mouthing the 9mm, but where ever u hit a bad guy with a 45 ends the fight.

Posts like this are why I tend to avoid this type of thread. Wish I'd resisted the temptation to start reading this one. Kinda like a train wreck...couldn't look away...:rolleyes:

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