9mm+P+ = .357 Magnum?


PDA






GCO
November 30, 2007, 04:14 AM
I mentioned this in my other post, but figured it deserved its own attention. One gun shop guy--a former Marine--said that 9mm+P+ and .357 magnum cartridges are pretty much the same in power, ballistics, etc. I've searched the web a bit, but couldn't find any comparisons and no ballistics for 9mm+P+. 9mm+P seems substantially less powerful than .357mag. How much more powerful is +P+? The guy also said that ammo technology has improved a great deal in the past 20 years, and this is why 9mm's are able to approach the power of .357mag. All I know is that 9mm is almost exactly the same diameter as .357.

If you enjoyed reading about "9mm+P+ = .357 Magnum?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
ugaarguy
November 30, 2007, 04:55 AM
With bullets weighing less than 135 grains 9mm +P+ can produce velocities very close or equal to what the .357 SIG produces with the same weight bullets, which in turn produces velocities very close to what the .357 Magnum produces with bullets of equal weight. The heavier the bullet though, the further the .357 Magnum pulls away in terms of velocity. The 9mm and .357 SIG simply lack the case capacity to hold enough powder to push heavier rounds - like the classic 158gr. bullets - to velocities equal to those produced by the .357 Magnum. These heavier rounds would also exceed the industry standard cartridge overall length of both the .357 SIG and 9mm Luger/Parabellum/NATO if you tried to seat them in either of those cases. Seating them deeper in either case would cuase extremly dangerous pressure levels.

SWMAN
November 30, 2007, 07:40 AM
I'd agree with UGAARGUY. +P+ is an attempt to get the 9mm into a range where it can become 357SIG, 357 magnum like. Look at the 127+P+ Winchester Ranger for example. A steady diet +P+ or NATO rounds will reduce the longevity of your pistol. However, whenever I shoot regular 9mm vs +P+, I can't feel the difference in recoil.

The Lone Haranguer
November 30, 2007, 07:54 AM
Not quite, according to chronograph data I've seen, but close. When the .357 is fired out of a two-ish-inch revolver barrel it loses a lot of velocity. In comparison to a three-inch pistol barrel (roughly the same length of actual rifled bore), the hot nines come very close to the .357, but without the thunderous blast and concussion of some magnums.

grimjaw
November 30, 2007, 08:55 AM
I only know what I've chronographed.

http://grimjaw.net/ballistics.htm

I didn't get the chance to try it out of a pistol, but out of a rifle barrel the 9mm 115gr +P+ would touch 1600 fps. .357 Magnum 125gr would easily exceed that, again out of a rifle. Guessing that .357 Mag wins again on the handgun side wiith 4"-5" barrels.

jm

ugaarguy
November 30, 2007, 09:53 AM
From www.buffalbore.com
1. Item 24A/20 (+p+) 115gr. Speer Uni Core

Browning Hi Power MK111, 4.6 inch barrel---------1426 fps
Beretta 92F, 4.9 inch barrel-----------------------------1402 fps
Glock 19, 4.0 inch barrel--------------------------------1389 fps



2. Item 24B/20 (+p+) 124gr. Speer Uni Core

Browning Hi Power MK111, 4.6 inch barrel------------1330 fps
Beretta 92F, 4.9 inch barrel-------------------------------1304 fps
Glock 19, 4 inch barrel------------------------------------1296 fps
and
1. 3 inch S&W J frame

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1302 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC (jacketed hollow cavity) = 1299 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 1398 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1476 fps

2. 4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1375 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr JHC = 1411 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 1485 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1603 fps
9mm +P+ is close but not quite .357 Magnum.

MCgunner
November 30, 2007, 10:04 AM
In a word, NO! But, the 9 in +P is plenty for self defense. Hell, standard pressure is fine for self defense. And, the 9 is much easier to shoot and much less flash/bang than a magnum, especially out of a 2" barrel, and even a standard pressure round has the +P .38 beat in energy, though the .38 makes up for it in bullet weight which gives it good penetration. I'm perfectly comfortable carrying a .38 revolver, frankly, and do all the time, love my little accurate Taurus 85UL.

I get 410 ft lbs out of a Kel Tec P11 with my 115 grain Hornady XTP/JHP loaded over 6.5 grains of Unique. I get 551 ft lbs from my 2.3" Ruger SP101 and a 140 grain JHP Speer over 17 grains of 2400, these are chronographed loads. .357 wins even out of the short barrel and I have a 180 grain load that makes 662 ft lbs/1304 fps out of that Ruger. That load is about 10mm equivalent, not 9mm, out of my Ruger Blackhawk's 6.5" barrel, 1401 fps/785 ft lbs. That one I don't carry for defense, more for outdoor use in case I run across a hog at short range (my place is infested with tasty wild hogs). I'd never ever carry a 9 for shooting wild hogs. :rolleyes: The .357 will do the job at short range even out of the Ruger's 2.3" barrel. I can put 5 of those loads into 2" at 25 yards, too, with that gun off a rest, very accurate. The Blackhawk will group 'em into 4" with iron sights at 100 yards. and is only about 5" high at 50. At 50 yards, I just take a 6 o'clock hold with it.

MCgunner
November 30, 2007, 10:13 AM
Oh, out of a rifle, I get 1860 fps from a 20" Rossi 92 with a .357 magnum load that's not even max, 14.5 grains 2400 with a 158 cast, gas checked SWC. That's 1200 ft lbs. That one has taken a doe at 80 yards with that rifle. Buffalo Bore claims 1800+ fps with a 180 grain load which touches on low .30-30 levels. I can't get that with my loads out of my rifle. As my name sake, MC Hammer would say about the 9, "You can't touch this."

R&J
November 30, 2007, 05:33 PM
Here are Double Tap Stats on Both Calibers:

1) .357 Magnum, 1600 fps, 710 ft. lbs., 125 gr Gold Dot

2) 10 mm, 1600 fps, 767 ft. lbs., 135 gr Nosler

3) .357 Magnum, 1400 fps, 688 ft. lbs., 158 gr Gold Dot

4) 10mm, 1475 fps, 750 ft. lbs, 155 gr Gold Dot

5) .357 Magnum, 1200 fps, 640 ft. lbs., 200 gr Hardcast

6) 10mm, 1300 fps, 750 ft. lbs., 200 gr Hardcast

*****

DT's 9 mm +P Looks Like This:

A) 9mm, 1415 fps, 511 ft. lbs., 115 gr Gold Dot

B) 9mm, 1310 fps, 473 ft. lbs., 124 gr Gold Dot

C) 9mm, 1135 fps, 421 ft. lbs., 147 gr Gold Dot

*****

This is just a quick reference of one brand of ammo, but Double Tap has fast gained a reputation for high performance loads, in particular in 10 mm. I'm sure some folks rolling their own, exceed these specs.

Also, I know there's more to it--ie., sectional density, bullet design, etc.--but this is a good barometer.

Get all their stats, in every available caliber, right here:

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php

--Ray

Soybomb
November 30, 2007, 06:16 PM
I'm not really concerned with numbers since I'm not playing dungeons and dragons, I want to do as much damage to an attackers body as possible to force him to stop. From here http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/testing/testing.aspx it looks like about 12" of penetration and over .60" expanded diameter on bare or clothed gelatin. Do I get anything significantly different from .357 mag?

Dienekes
November 30, 2007, 06:20 PM
Got slightly interested in the.357 SIG round when it came out, and did a little homework on it. It was mostly an academic exercise anyway, and when I found a forgotten hoard of +P+ 115 grain 9mm rounds (W-W RA9115HP+)I figured that was close enough for me.

They clocked at 1382 fps out of my Mk. III BHP.

19-3Ben
November 30, 2007, 06:26 PM
ummmm......kind of a flawed question. You specify that it is 9mm+p+, but you don't give bullet weight.
Then you compare it to .357mag. But...ummm...what loading? There are monster loadings that would best the 9mm+p+ and then there are more moderate powered .357mags like the Speer ShortBarrel one that I carry that I would guess falls between an average 9mm+p and a +p+ of the same approximate weight. So.... both yes and no. And don't listen to gun-shop commandos. They usually talk a lot and say almost nothing.

If you enjoyed reading about "9mm+P+ = .357 Magnum?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!