[Wild Bill Kelso]

Anybody know anything about the Armalite AR-17 shotgun ?

It is an extremely light-weight 2-shot semi-automatic that was made in very limited numbers quite a number of years back.

I think it was designed primarily for trap & skeet shooters - however, I'm wondering how pratical an uplanbd gun it would make.

[The Deer Hunter]

Googled it, got this:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?threadid=82077

[shield20]

You can still find some available on the gun sale sites:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/976778252/Guns/Rifles/TU-Misc-Rifles/Armalite_AR_17_Semi_Auto.htm
http://www.gunsamerica.com/classifieds/none/_976087632.aspx
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976554523.htm

[TonyRumore]

That's one of those guns that is rare but not scarce. They didn't make many of them, but there is always one or two for sale at a gun show since nobody wants one.

Tony

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Tony,

You may have answered my question by saying that 'nobody wants them.'

I've heard that Armalite AR-17s have some quirky qualities & characteristics - such as a funky trigger pull.

I'm looking for the ultimate upland gun, where I go for pheasant is akin to jungle fighting and I'm looking for a super light weight fast handling gun

Right now I'm using a Winchester 59 with a shortened barrel - it's good, but I'm wondering if there is better out there.

If nobody wants them because they are really odd and/or trouble buckets then you may have saved me a lot of aggravation.

[TonyRumore]

I have never heard anything "wrong" with the gun. But there is just not going to be much demand for an oddball out of production semi-auto that only has two shots. Couple that with the fact that nobody under the age of 40 has any friggin idea what it is, and you have a recipe for a very dusty gun at the show.

There probably aren't too many guys under 40 that know what a Model 50 or 59 is either.

These days, nobody wants anything unless they think everyone else wants it too.

Tony

[Oldnamvet]

Wild one - sounds like you should consider a lightweight SxS coach gun with 20" bbls?
I grew up hunting pheasants in Iowa corn, sloughs, and fencerows. Where is it like a jungle with pheasants?

[Regolith]

Can someone tell me what the point of a 2 shot semi-auto is? Might as well get a SxS...:uhoh:

[Wild Bill Kelso]

I live on the northshore of Boston Massachusetts.

We customarily find pheasant in heavily-weeded shallow wetlands - be it a meadow or edge of a pond, we've nicknamed such turf as 'pheasant mush.'

Anyway in 'pheasant mush' you're usually standing in vegetation that varies from chest to chin high, is interspersed with thorny vines that tangle in your clothes, and you're usually standing on uneven ground in a comibination of water; rocks; sticks; twigs & branches.

And of course every pheasant knows to make a to-the-right-quartering in-escape.

I swear a shotgun pistol might be more appropriate at certain times.

Down on Nantucket Island - which is the last stand for native Chinese Ringneck pheasant in the Bay State, they live in the thorniest nastiest brush you can imagine. But that's where the rosters with the two-foot-long tail feathers and inch-and-a-half long spurs die of old age - hunting those birds is like hunting a 10-point buck.

[Dave McCracken]

Bill, a "Woolnerized" 59 is probably close to what you need. Second choice for me would be a riot barreled 870. Or a Special Field 870.

HTH....

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Dave,

Thank you for your excellent recommendations.

I currently am using a semi-Woolnerized model 59.

I have a Remington Special Field 1100 with a 21" barrel - nice gun, but gets heavy after a while.

I used to carry a 870, but stepped up to the 1100 SF.

Where I go its typically blink-of-the-eye 'point & shoot' situations, with a long shot being 30 yards, all in a total time of 'Four beats of the heart' - like the Japanese say is the typically time of a duel.

[Dave McCracken]

Both the 1100s and 870s run a bit heavy for this, Bill, but they just work so well otherwise.

MD quail hunters are known to others by the roadmaps of scratches on their forearms. Short, fast handling shotguns turn up in the thickets for good reason.

Were I designing the perfect brush gun it'd probably be a SxS. A 16 or 20 gauge, choked none and little. It'd have 26" barrels, a swamped rib and shoot just a hair high so I could see the bird clearly.

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Dave,

There is limited quail hunting in Massachusetts however; our quail country is 'gentrified' - wide open areas with hedge rows or brush piles. Like hunting giant bumble-bees; absolutely a 410 or 28 gauge game, with a long shot being 20 yards.

Getting back to pheasants, I've got a 20" barreled SXS in my inventory; not sure what it is choked; presently it pulls the 'night shift' at our house (if you know what I mean) - problem is it has external hammers. I'll have to take it to the range and check it out.

Then again, this could justify another gun! This one the same except hammerless.

I'm not a big 20 ga lover; and haven't got enough time logged with 16 ga's to have a legitimate opinion - then again the previous generation seamed to love them a lot.

Our pheasant mush can be daunting but nothing compared to where we used to hunt ruffed grouse - which we nicknamed 'heart attack birds' (they'd stay put until you unknowingly come within a handful of feet then flush in such an startling way that you'd think you're having a heart attack). Our grouse thicket sounds a lot like where you hunt quail.

Anyway, upland hunting is very exciting - kind of like 'gun fighting' in a way and I could spend all day discussing every hunter's choice of weaponry & loads.

[El Tejon]

Have you considered the Beretta A303? I have one and use it for birds (I'm on the border between pheasants and quail/ruffed grouse country).

It's light and as handy as a swagger stick.:)

I've been to Boston a lot over the years. It makes me very happy to hear that there is still bird hunting available around there.

[Wild Bill Kelso]

I am not familiar with the Beretta A303 - but will make it a point to research it.

Bird hunting in Massachusetts - yes we still have bird hunting in the Bay State, but it isn't what it used to be.

In eastern Massachusetts access to private land (i.e. farms & such) has dried up and all we pretty much have are Wildlife Management Areas (WMAs) where birds are stocked - the Division of Fisheries & Wildlife stock quail at a couple WMAs in the southeast district.

Then again the WMAs are pretty good, they are owned by the sportsmen and managed fairly well. The deer hunting is pretty good too.

Now as for birds, specifically pheasant, native birds pretty much disappeared 25 years ago due to 'the blight' - and everyone has their own theory just what the blight was: disease; urban development; coyotes; increase in predatory birds; feral cats & free roaming dogs, etc, etc.

As I said earlier the last remaining bastion for native pheasant is Nantucket Island - which is 25 miles out to sea and strickly land manged. The cover teeters on brutal.

As for ruffed grouse, once plentiful, now rare.

And it goes without saying that hunting upland game without a DAM GOOD hunting dog is an exercise in futility.

Yes we have our upland excitement, but it ain't what it used to be.

I remember my buddy & I getting drunk (and I don't drink) and crying like babies when we lost access to our last farm some number of years ago.

It used to be a friggin' Shangrila - dam do I miss those days.

Then again it ain't that horrible these days - just no native birds with long tail feathers and long spurs.

[mnw42]

I'd try a Benelli.

[Wild Bill Kelso]

I've handled a few Benellis which seam pretty light weight, I'll have to seriously research them.

As a matter of reference my Winchester model 59, with shortened barrel, weights in at about 6 pounds.

[Dave McCracken]

20 gauges just plain work, Bill. The advances in ammo in the last four decades have really made the 20 gauge viable for most stuff.

A 20 gauge Stevens SxS was a fine brush gun for me years ago. So was a French/Belgian 12 gauge SxS that weighed 6 lbs, 5 oz. Both handled fast and sure.

The 12 gauge Stevens I turned into a Lupara was a bit whippy, even though it was heavier.

[Wild Bill Kelso]

I'm really enjoying this exchange of thoughts.

And I've learned something new, 'Lupara' - I had to look that up.

Perhaps you're right regarding 20 ga, the last time I logged serious trigger-time with a 20 was back during my college days.

'Forcing that rusty hinge and thinking back' - at that time I had a plain barreled Remington 870, 2-3/4" chamber, with a tootsie roll forend, choked modified. My favorite load back then was an oz of 4's however; I did experiement with magnum 1-1/8 oz loads of 4s.

With that 20 ga 870, which I nicknamed 'plain vanilla' I considered myself to be the most dangerous man in the world out to 40 yards. Dropped many a pheasant & duck.

Since then I've had a smattering of opportunities to try friend's 20's, most of which didn't fit me or were properly suited to the occassion, and I was forced to shoot their loads which I didn't care for.

I'll have to do some research, somehow I've noticed that I'm gravitating to lighter guns as I get older - the same phenomena I politely criticized about with the previous generation as they approached the same age as I am now.

[Dave McCracken]

Bill, modern 7/8 oz loads put as many pellets inside a 30" circle as 1 1/8 oz loads did back in the 60s.

On good report, the 20 gauge Hevishot loads are great duck killers over dekes.

As for lighter shotguns, see a thread I wrote from a month or so ago about "My New Bird Gun". It carries nicely.

[El Tejon]

WBK, I believe you will like the Beretta A303, but you know the gun culture--the subjective is objective (we may like each other, but not everyone likes the same guns).:p:D

My little Beretta really loves Federal ammo and I get excellent patterns. However, I also get great patterns with super cheap Gamester #6s (I bought over a dozen cases when I used to work at Galyan's [sporting goods stores in Indiana before they merged with Dick's]) that I still use. You know how it is, every gun, even if they have consecutive serial numbers, likes different loads.

[ABTOMAT]

Getting back to the AR-17 for a second, I've always wanted to try out one of those guns. I have a 1965 Gun Digest that I grew up reading, along with a Shooter's Bible from the same year. The gun was new then and rather heavily reviewed.

[The Deer Hunter]

I have looked at the Benelli M2 field in 20GA. The thing has to weight somewhere around 4.5-5 pounds. Even if it does, its balanced very nicely.

Pricey, though.

That AR-17 seems like a fun gun to tinker with, though.

[Wild Bill Kelso]

RE: the Benelli M2, 4.5 to 5 pounds you say - that sounds incredibly intriguing

RE: the Armalite 17, yes it definetly comes across as a gun that just begs to be tinkered with.