[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

aren't these guys just your hero's or what? For the OT discussion, do you feel safer with such firepower around? I mean, we don't have to carry anymore if these guys are all over right?

Decent article too, show of military force to deter would be terrorists, man these guys are on point, really puttin the hammer down on the bad guys. I just wish they'd hurry up and get to my town before it's too late.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/content/imageview.cfm?img=http%3A//media.popularmechanics.com/images/PMX0606SUPER007_large.jpg&caption=A%20heavily%20armed%20Hercules%20team%20makes%20a%20show%20of%20force%20outside%20a%20midtown%20Manhattan%20office%20building.

(I'm trying to get the picture to work.... :( help appreciated here, I used to know how to do that but...alas....efforts.....futile........

article HERE (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/2818211.html?page=1) (popular mechanics)

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/2818211.html?page=1

st

------------------------------

:uhoh:
----------------(page one)
Meet The New Supercops
Protecting America's cities, ports, borders and airports requires new technology and new tactics. Here's a look at who's doing it right.
BY BRAD REAGAN
Photographs by Alex Majoli
Published in the June 2006 issue.



A heavily armed Hercules team makes a show of force outside a midtown Manhattan office building.


No one sees them coming. There are no flashing lights, no sirens. The black Suburban simply glides out of Fifth Avenue traffic and pulls into a no-parking zone in front of the Empire State Building. Moments later, four men spill out in combat helmets and heavy body armor: Two carry submachine guns; the others, snub-nosed shotguns.

Camera-toting tourists stop jabbering and stare at this intimidating new presence, their faces a mixture of curiosity and fear. Even jaded New Yorkers, many of whom work inside the midtown Manhattan landmark, look impressed.

A stone's throw down the sidewalk, Abad Nieves watches the scene unfold. Nieves is a detective with the Intelligence Division of the New York Police Department (NYPD). Casually clad in slacks and a black leather jacket, he monitors the response of people loitering in the area. Is anyone making notes or videotaping? Does anyone seem especially startled by the out-of-the-blue appearance of a heavily armed NYPD squad?

On this day, Nieves doesn't see anything overly suspicious, but he is pleased that the deployment created a strong impression. Known as a Hercules team, it makes multiple appearances around the city each day. The locations are chosen either in response to specific intelligence or simply to provide a show of force at high-profile sites.

"The response we usually get is, 'Holy s---!'" Nieves says. "That's the reaction we want. We are in the business of scaring people--we just want to scare the right people."

The people the NYPD hopes to scare are the ideological brothers of the Islamic extremists who have successfully attacked New York City twice in the past 13 years. To stop these terrorists, the department fundamentally changed the way it protects the city after 9/11.

At 51,000 strong, the NYPD employs more than 1.5 times as many people as the FBI, and its anti-terrorism initiative is a synchronized effort between the department's Intelligence Division and the Counter Terrorism Bureau. The Intelligence Division coordinates the Hercules teams, which are composed of specialist cops rotated in from throughout the force. The Counter Terrorism Bureau takes on a more focused role, functioning as the department's think tank on terrorism prevention and overseeing various subdepartments such as the NYPD/FBI Joint Terrorist Task Force. The effort even stretches far from New York, with nine liaisons assigned to such overseas hot spots as Tel Aviv, Israel; Amman, Jordan; and London.

New York has become a testing ground for urban terrorism prevention in a major city, integrating new thinking and sophisticated technology into every level of the force. And, the lessons learned are beginning to influence police forces in other cities. In 2004, Los Angeles launched Operation Archangel to identify possible targets and to develop protection plans for them, and the Chicago Police Department earlier this year began providing five days of terrorism training to all of its 13,500 officers. Several big cities, including Washington, D.C., Las Vegas, Los Angeles and Chicago, even formed a network to gather and share intelligence--an interagency version of what New York built in-house. The NYPD provides valuable consultation to many other local police departments and even state and federal agencies, from the Department of Defense to the Illinois State Police. In fact, international police forces from the Netherlands, Singapore and other countries have sent representatives to the NYPD to learn its tactics.

"Clearly, New York is way in front on this," says Brian Michael Jenkins, a terrorism expert with the Rand Corp. "As the threat gets more diffused, we are going to have less of the kind of intelligence that can be picked up by the feds. We are dealing now with threats that are deliberately operating under the radar. Therefore, we have to aim the radar lower, to the local level."

Although there have been no attacks in New York since 9/11, police officials work under the assumption that Al Qaeda and its sympathizers are constantly plotting against the city. As an example, they point to a 2002 plan by an Ohio truck driver named Iyman Faris to bring down the Brooklyn Bridge by cutting its cables. Hercules teams are frequently stationed on the bridge, and the department keeps a boat in the waters beneath it at all times. Faris, who later pleaded guilty to aiding Al Qaeda, ultimately called off the operation with a coded message reading: "The weather is too hot."

Page 1 2 3 Next »

[stubbicatt]

Kee-ripes! I see this in my town and I think the terrorists are attacking!

Fear is a strong motivator in people. The cops and the "terrorists" are calculating the same reaction in people by their actions. This seems a misguided idea, but then I don't live in NY. If each the "terrorists" and the cops are intending to cause fear and alarm, doesn't that make them both "terrorists?" To rule by fear and intimidation?

Yeesh!

[kurtmax]

I've heard of this before. I'd mainly be concerned about deploying 'SWAT' type teams in places that they aren't needed. Men running around with SMGs is dangerous. It will only take one of them to have an ND during a fake raid to cause trouble.

[siglite]

Holy crap...

I realize this seems tinfoil hat of me, but this reads like the idea is to desensitize residents to raids of this nature. To a potentially coming police state.

Get the public used to it.

Going in to various places with machine guns and body armor is just business as usual folks.

Geeze, I need to lay off the tinfoil.

<disclaimer>
The above is a kneejerk reaction with very little informed opinion.
</disclaimer>

[MikePGS]

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s54/MikePGS/PMX0606SUPER007_large.jpg

Also, whats a snubnosed shotgun? :D

[Regolith]

No, sig, you're somewhat right.

They're using a show of force to try and scare people into complying with their wishes. Its usually called saber rattling. The fact that this is a state government that is saber rattling towards their own citizens is very scary. Even if their intent is to scare off terrorists, that's not the only people who these tactics will effect.

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

<disclaimer>
The above is a kneejerk reaction with very little informed opinion.
</disclaimer>

just remember, the kneejerk reaction has saved many a lads from a sudden opening of the head, chest, or abdomen. . . :uhoh:

[Nolo]

This is just plain scary.
What do they think they're doing?
Scaring terrorists to not blow up stuff?
Any person who walks by could plant something or do other heinous things and they wouldn't do anything about it.
This is creepy...
I want to move to Alaska now.

[Nolo]

Those helmets look familiar...

[ptmmatssc]

Also, whats a snubnosed shotgun?

I was wondering the same thing .

I realize this seems tinfoil hat of me, but this reads like the idea is to desensitize residents to raids of this nature. To a potentially coming police state.

I guess i need to be fitted for my hat soon since that's how I perceive it also .

[rocket lad]

I realize this seems tinfoil hat of me, but this reads like the idea is to desensitize residents to raids of this nature. To a potentially coming police state.

Get the public used to it.

Going in to various places with machine guns and body armor is just business as usual folks.


Don't feel bad - I thought the exact same thing.

[Gunnerpalace]

Lets look at it another way this WILL dissuade the petty criminal and terrorist but this brings up the question if a die hard show up with a bomb will they stop him or start the "lets talk about it" nonsense? Anyone?

[Mainsail]

Yet another reason open carry is good. I wonder what their reaction would be to a few WA, AZ, OH, or VA folks watching while openly carrying a sidearm.

[Noxx]

If nothing else, at least they are exercising some basic trigger discipline.

[canopy2k]

So, the police are running around the city without uniforms, driving unmarked vehicles, toting carbines.

In an armed state, such as AZ, seems like this kind of thing could lead to problems. Say a guy who wants to be a hero sees an SUV pull up at a bank. 4 guys in body armor jump out, with rifles and shotguns. Our hero gets his SHTF rifle out and starts shooting, believing he is witnessing a robbery in progress or terrorist attack.

I think he would be stupid, but morally in the right. How can you determine who is the good guy and who is the bad guy when they dress and act the same? Is there any difference when the good guys start using the same tactics as the bad guys?

c2k

[DoubleTapDrew]

Oh look, stormtroopers.
Terrorists took over airplanes with boxcutters. They motored an inflatable raft up to the USS Cole. Anyone with a Chief's special could have taken them out. Good thing we are arming up for war at home. Do they get fancy arm bands with their own insignia?

[tmajors]

One of my favorite television quotes:

There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people.

-William Adama, Battlestar Galactica 2004

[Grizzly Adams]

This is scary. I can't fathom what the powers that be in NY are thinking. Not only scary but dangerious as well.

[Jdude]

Add one more to the tinfoil crowd.

I have a firm belief that 'feets on the streets' is the best way to combat crime. But these guys just seem to be there for the state sponsored thuggery.

[Baba Louie]

...snub-nosed shotguns.Short barrel scattergun, i.e., "in the absence of any evidence" Supreme Court not saying that a sawed off shotgun had any relationship to the militia... one of those I'd bet. See Derek Zeanah's thread over in "Legal", making certain to watch Naomi Wolf's 46 minute video linked therein. (She did do her homework I will say)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=320148

Then come back to rethink Sam's linked article on SuperCop/Hercules team. Or private contractor's in New Orleans. While I don't come to the same conclusion as Ms Wolf vis a vis impeachment, I do think a message to those elected and a grassroots movement restoring our Constitutional democratic Republic with it's built in checks and balances is about due...

And while it's nice to think of "no need to carry anymore..." I don't feel any safer with men in black sporting snub-nosed shotguns or men in redcoats sporting Brown Bess muskets... do you? Tin foil or no. ;)

[Feanaro]

My tinfoil beanie is firmly attached.

The terrorists aren't invading our Wal-Marts armed with AK-47s. They prefer more cost effective methods, like blowing things up or sending white powder through the mail. I'm much more concerned about the police than I am about terrorists.

[politicalgeek]

"What's going on?" she asks, clearly alarmed.

"It's a counterterrorism exercise, ma'am," Walsh says. "Nothing's wrong."

The woman's face slackens with relief. "Nothing's wrong? Great!" "

^one of the scariest parts of the article, that there are citizens who are completely placated by this...

Now where did my tin foil go....

[S&Wfan]

We don't need 'em down here in Georgia to control a terrorist attack.

Naawww . . . most decent citizens down here grew up in the country hunting and fishing. We know how to shoot and many are legally "packin" . . . and if a terrorist starts some stuff down here they won't go too far before someone ends the problem with a head shot.

I agree though, that this is a good point for open carry . . . AND for concealed carry by the HONEST CITIZENS of this great land who happen to live in NYC too! Too bad the "solution" to the local politicians is to create a military police state instead.

The citified version of Barney Fife strutting around in black with fully automatic "poodle guns" and lots of extra ammo ain't 'zacktly my idea of a free society. Plus, spraying those FMJ .223 rounds all over the place in 3-shot bursts MAY just hit quite a few honest citizens.

The "State" has way too much power already over it's "subjects" up in Clinton/Gulianni/Obama-land . . . and has effectively disarmed the "good guys" in many large cities of the North.

Power corrupts . . . and disarming honest citizens who will protect our free nation if necessary, and replacing them with a militaristic police-state is NOT a wise idea if we want to continue to be a free country.

T.

[politicalgeek]

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/07/25/050725fa_fact2

A much expanded story on the NYPD anti-terrorism folks...from the New Yorker

[yesit'sloaded]

I'm not a tinfoiler, but I can read a dictionary.
ˈterrorist noun
a person who tries to frighten people or governments into doing what he/she wants by using or threatening violence
And their goal is...
"The response we usually get is, 'Holy s---!'" Nieves says. "That's the reaction we want. We are in the business of scaring people--we just want to scare the right people."

So who are the terrorists now?

[joffe]

This comes down to the government using a hammer to pound at someone hiding in a crack - all they're hitting is the crack and the people around it. They aren't scaring terrorists by doing this, the terrorists (if they even still exist in NY) are holed up in apartments, run-down shacks, preparing whatever means they intend to use, and with the methods terrorists use a bunch of idiots standing around a building with rifles isn't going to help anyone.

The only people they are scaring are the common folk. Until, a few years later, everyone is so used to cops running around equipped like soldiers they don't even react. Tin foil hat or not, that's not the way it's supposed to be.

[jerkface11]

If you see a group of heavily armed men in plain clothes get out of an unmarked car. Call 911 on them. The article says NYC has 51000 people working for their police department so the chances of their right hand knowing what their left hand is doing are VERY slight. The chaos that would result from such a 911 call would most likely cause them to rethink these "drills".

[B yond]

Since these guys are responding to nothing in full battle dress with a bunch of gear they're probably not going to need, does that make them mall ninjas?

No personal offense intended to these guys, I'm sure they're well-trained and mean well (I hope), but this display of force seems unnecessary.

Wouldn't we all be just as safe (and a lot less terrorized) if they were hanging out in plainclothes with pistol caliber SMGs under their jackets. It seems like they'd have a better chance of actually stopping an attack that way. Being highly visible only moves the attack (if any) to a different location or time.

How could these guys stop an explosion or an airplane anyway (aren't those the only successful 'terrorist' attacks in NY)? I don't think we have trauma plates rated for 747 jets or fertilizer bombs. If we do, these guys should have two of them duct-taped to their backs and be wearing ninja boots so they can run up the side of a skyscraper to deflect a plane.

[Conqueror]

"We are in the business of scaring people--we just want to scare the right people."

Seems to me your odds of scaring a terrorist by showing up at a random location loaded for bear is a HELL OF A LOT LOWER than your chance of scaring a bunch of innocent civilians.

Of course (Tinfoil Hat - ENGAGE!) maybe the civilians are the "right people" he's talking about scaring into submission. (Tinfoil Hat - DISENGAGE!)

[doc2rn]

Ho Hum, I guess Connor is right about the sheeple. I would laugh at them for having to stand around in all that gear. Been there done that; takes more than an Matell toy and kevlar to get a rise out of me. Maybe if they brought some arty with them like SMAW, AT-4, or an M1A2.

[ceetee]

Okay, just to keep things honest: The point is NOT to actually do something about crime, or terrorism. The point is to make "the people" THINK you're doing something about crime or terrorism. Police departments are funded (or defunded) by politicians, and there never has been a politician that didn't want to make "the people" think he was doing something about crime...

[jpk1md]

The recent Militarization of the Police combined with the expansion and use of Mercenary/Para Military Forces INSIDE the US is a very disturbing trend that "The People" need to push back against.

These forces are NOT making us safer and are only scaring otherwise honest citizens...the would be terrorist is not deterred in any way shape or form by these people.

The best analogy I can make would be the relationship between heavy handed gun control and crime....we all know that heavy handed gun control only effects the law abiding citizen and does little if ANYTHING to prevent Criminals from obtaining firearms.....one needs to look no further than DC, Baltimore or Trenton for proof of this.

[critter]

I have seen them doing that in my first, last and ONLY trip to NYC. If my luck holds, I'll NEVER be back.

I thought it was a freaking joke and a big waste of time and money by some folks who just want to play 'cowboy'.

[RLsnow]

this doesnt sound very good....anyone wanna bet how long it takes for them to start arresting random people..?

[Texpatriate]

I've sometimes wondered if the government's reaction in response to to 9/11 is exactly what the terrorists had as their goal in the first place: a gradual (or perhaps not so gradual) erosion of liberty and justice in America and feeling of fear amongst the citizenry, and the eventual devolution of the United States into a fascist-statist quagmire. If it is, then we're giving them exactly what they wanted.

Something to think about.

[average_shooter]

I've sometimes wondered if the government's reaction in response to to 9/11 is exactly what the terrorists had as their goal in the first place

It has been said over and over that they want to "disrupt our way of life." They won, and we handed that win to them.

[matt87]

"The response we usually get is, 'Holy s---!'" Nieves says. "That's the reaction we want. We are in the business of scaring people--we just want to scare the right people."

The people the NYPD hopes to scare are the ideological brothers of the Islamic extremists who have successfully attacked New York City twice in the past 13 years. To stop these terrorists, the department fundamentally changed the way it protects the city after 9/11.
Similar to above posts, how long till these definitions are 'updated'?

[poor_richard]

So many good responses on this thread. The underlying theme being that most people understand that this is exactly what this country doesn't need. Scary that no mention of the 911 board being inundated with calls about a bunch of thugs running around the street in body armor carrying "assault weapons".

This is evidence that America hasn't learned from 9/11. It wasn't box cutters and knives that allowed the terrorist to fly planes into buildings. It was the American people's attitude to give the BG what he wants in order to placate him (or let someone else deal with the problem). It's what happened on 9/11, and it's what continues to happen on the streets of NYC.

Wouldn't we all be just as safe (and a lot less terrorized) if they were hanging out in plainclothes with pistol caliber SMGs under their jackets. It seems like they'd have a better chance of actually stopping an attack that way. Being highly visible only moves the attack (if any) to a different location or time.Being highly visible, however does work well in scaring the regular, law abiding citizens into following orders and direction (as well as getting them used to a police state where soldiers patrol the streets with SMG's), better that hanging out in plainclothes. No tin foil hat here. If it walks like a duck, and it talks like a duck then, "by golly it's a duck!"

[RLsnow]

wonder if it would be better to have the citizens walking around carrying smgs on their back instead....

then again im just a crazy person....

[Diggers]

All this is is a SHOW. It does NOTHING in reality. They put these guys out there and regular people go " OH wow look at the guys in black with black guns! They are bad ass! No terrorist will attack US again." :rolleyes:

I love the line about "Does anyone seem especially startled by the out-of-the-blue appearance of a heavily armed NYPD squad? “ That made me laugh! Oh are the terrorists going to be startled by these guy standing in front of a building? Uh NO!!!!

And what are these guys going to do to stop a bomb, which is of course how the terrorists will attack us in the future as they have in the past. Well nothing of course.

It’s just all really silly. A SHOW of force is exactly what it is. It does nothing to make anyone safer.


This is just another example of how easy our government thinks it is to fool us.

[jakeswensonmt]

These are not "cops." These are thugs.

How can you determine who is the good guy and who is the bad guy when they dress and act the same?

So all the muslims have to do is get a black SUV, ski masks, and some surplus weapons and armor, and all the sheeple will stand back and let them pass.

[Invalid]

Police state, no tin foil hat needed. Maybe they'll start having parades soon.

[Soybomb]

That's the reaction we want. We are in the business of scaring people--we just want to scare the right people."
How disturbing and useless sounding.

[politicalgeek]

I sent this to a friend, but before I did, i described the unmarked SUV with unmarked police doing the show of force drill...her comment was "tell me this isn't in the US"

[Hoppy590]

At 51,000 strong, the NYPD employs more than 1.5 times as many people as the FBI

problem with that math. it only takes 1 FBI agent to step in, and give the orders. :)

[WSM MAGNUM]

[QUOTE]At 51,000 strong, the NYPD employs more than 1.5 times as many people as the FBI, and its anti-terrorism initiative is a synchronized effort between the department's Intelligence Division and the Counter Terrorism Bureau. The Intelligence Division coordinates the Hercules teams, which are composed of specialist cops rotated in from throughout the force.[/QUOTE

We would not some Hercules team if New Yorker politicians would wise up and let the millions of residents own and carry their weapons. Imagine the counter- terrorist force we would have then to scare the so-called ideological brothers of the Islamic extremists, not to mention the huge amount of tax payers money we could save.

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

I'd say get this out to anyone you know too...if no one says anything, well, our feelings aren't worth much.
:scrutiny:

Who the heck thinks this is actually going to 'deter' or 'scare' "the right" people? Well, depends on who 'the right' people are. Ridiculous, these guys are as high as kites on power and attention, superstar "cops".

best quote so far, "If it looks like a duck and it acts like a duck..."
HA!

indeed

st

[B yond]

If it looks like a duck and it acts like a duck...
...shoot that lyin' turkey and eat 'im!

[akodo]

isn't this kinda the same idea behind concealed carry?

individual criminals never know what small percent of citizens packing, and terrorist cells never know when some random swat team will come by for a photo op

[evilelvis]

Pathetic. Waste of time money, newsprint, and probably my tax dollars. Like someone said, successful attacks against the United States happened with low tech equipment. It will be done that way and always be done that way. As those Iraq IEDs have shown, it doesn't take a million dollar missile to destroy lives.

[geophysicishooter]

My question is... how does this stop a bunch of BG's from pulling this exact same drill and robbing the place or planting explosives or whatever bg's do all the while telling everyone on the street "Oh, no, it's ok, this is all just a drill. Go on about your business." and with tacticool precision, they hop back in the black SUV and drive away. a few seconds later... KABOOOM! another franchise coffee shop reduced to rubble..

all kidding aside, I agree with whoever said it above. I'm callin the cops, taking cover and dropping the safety if I see guys in kevlar toting assault rifles jumping out of a limo tinted black suburban..

Oh, by the way.. I don't know where to buy tin foil, will aluminum foil work instead..

[ZeSpectre]

"The response we usually get is, 'Holy s---!'" Nieves says. "That's the reaction we want. We are in the business of scaring people--we just want to scare the right people."

And with that statement we know that the terrorists have won in their plot to fundamentally change the way American lives and law enforcement operate.

[230RN]

siglight said:

I realize this seems tinfoil hat of me, but this reads like the idea is to desensitize residents to raids of this nature. To a potentially coming police state.

That's the first thing I thought of when reading the original post.

I'm with the tin or aluminum foil hat folks.

Appalling.

[average_shooter]

My question is... how does this stop a bunch of BG's from pulling this exact same drill and robbing the place or planting explosives or whatever bg's do all the while telling everyone on the street "Oh, no, it's ok, this is all just a drill. Go on about your business." and with tacticool precision, they hop back in the black SUV and drive away.

Was that movie Die Hard or Ocean's Eleven?

Kidding aside, I agree. Exactly how are the rest of us supposed to know it's SWAT and not just a bunch of terrorists who got their hands on some surplus gear?

[yesit'sloaded]

Exactly how are the rest of us supposed to know it's SWAT and not just a bunch of terrorists who got their hands on some surplus gear? Silly, don't you know that terrorists don't have guns because they are illegal. This message brought to you by MiniTruth.

[DoubleTapDrew]

Maybe part of this is to discourage concealed carry. Out with your family (or alone), SUV comes screaching up, guys without badges with SMG's piling out, natural reaction is draw your weapon and try to find cover. Now you are target #1.

[v35]

Die Antwort, die wir normalerweise erhalten ist, "Heilige Scheiss!", sagt Herr Nieves. "Wir wünschen, das die Reaktion ist. Wir sind im Geschäft des Erschreckens die Leute, aber wir möchten erschrecken die richtige Leute."

Now it all makes sense!

Pardon my rusty German...

[collateral]

fascism has come to America.

The day that I see a black SUV roll up and a bunch of tacticool PIGS with subguns and body armor pile out is the day I am going to leave this country.

Totally f*cking unnecessary.

[Geno]

When I lived in Santiago, Chile (1986) there were extreme restrictions to firearms ownership. Yet, during that summer there were dozens, and mean dozens of attacks on the military, and military police, including blowing up the municiple building's entrance about 70 meters from our front door.

Even the total military power of Chile could calm the amlost daily machinegunkilling of police officers, and other military personnel, and the nearly daily bombings. These facts should cause the politicians great fear. Think about this. Project ahead to Hildabeast winning, taking away ALL firearms, and now only criminals and police have firearms. Who NOW do they blame?!

It happened in Chile...I lived under a military dictatorship! It ain't fun folks! Do not think it could never happen in America!!! It can!!!

Doc2005

[Archer1945]

I got a kick out of the remarks in the article that this will scare the terrorist. Not only that but the detective watching to see who is taking notes. Any terrorist worth the name is watching all this and taking notes mentally, it is only the NYPD officials who need the written notes, that is so they can show the NYC politicians they are doing something. Meanwhile the terrorists are discussing all the ideas the NYPD is giving them as to how to plan another attack.

From the comments being made on the article website I can just imagine those Popular Mechanics itself is getting.

[politicalgeek]

Be vwery, vwery quiet....we're hunting twerrorist....

(all credit to Robin Williams, I believe)

[yesit'sloaded]

The day that I see a black SUV roll up and a bunch of tacticool PIGS with subguns and body armor pile out is the day I am going to leave this country. Funny thing is, exactly where would you go? This IS the land that people fled to when their natural rights were infringed. The EU is taking over Europe, Russia is becoming a dictatorship, the middle east is burning itself down, Israel looks nice on the surface, but is a socialist state in actuality. This is it, there is no other place with the same freedoms, which is why it is important that we don't loose them. It's time for the real patriots to rise up, vote, and shut these clowns down before it's "papers please". That is why it is so important to vote for a candidate with a real belief that isn't just feeding us what we want to hear.

[Green Lantern]

Hehehehehehe..."snub-nosed shotgun" :D

Glad that was good for a laugh, because I'm more than a little disturbed by the rest of it...

[Hazwaste]

"The response we usually get is, 'Holy s---!'" Nieves says. "That's the reaction we want. We are in the business of scaring people--we just want to scare the right people."

No, your business is to enforce the law within the bounds of the authority that the people have granted. Tactics that terrorize those for whom you're working have no place in a "free" nation.

[CB900F]

Fella's;

"This is scary. I can't fathom what the powers that be in NY are thinking. Not only scary but dangerious as well."

I'm going to posit that all the so-called "thinking" that was done by those "powers that be" was from a viewpoint totally unfamiliar with living in a second amendment society. Or, if not totally, then only familiar in the sense that they continue to be spoon-fed the opinions that their armed police want them to have.

It would seem that we are seeing a direct result of the Sullivan Act. Would that the proponents of that absurdity been tried for treason, convicted, and dispatched by whatever was the method of the era. Alas, that was not the case.

The people who investigated the physical structure of the World Trade Towers with the idea of destroying them by aircraft assault have absolutely shown us that they are not, repeat not stupid. I would imagine that the amount of planning involved to mousetrap several of these Hercules teams would be trivial in comparison. And think of the results they'd get. High volume gunfire in a dense urban enviroment. Satchel charge in the suburban would turn it into shrapnel. Casualties everywhere in the media's own backyard.

I don't think they thought it through. But then, they aren't equipped to, living as they do in the firearms free enviroment they've built.

900F

[fast eddie]

Some of the posts on this thread remind me of the old Kinks tune: Acute schizophrenia paranoia blues.

[poor_richard]

isn't this kinda the same idea behind concealed carry?

individual criminals never know what small percent of citizens packing, and terrorist cells never know when some random swat team will come by for a photo opNo. It isn't the same idea behind concealed carry. The two don't even come close to comparison.

[.41Dave]

"The response we usually get is, 'Holy s---!'" Nieves says. "That's the reaction we want. We are in the business of scaring people--we just want to scare the right people." It ain't paranoia if they really are out to get you...

I do think a message to those elected and a grassroots movement restoring our Constitutional democratic Republic with it's built in checks and balances is about due...

There is one. Ron Paul's campaign. I think Ron Paul may be our best chance to change course away from the police state that the rest of the Republicans and Democrats are working overtime to bring to fruition in a feverish display of statist bipartisanship.

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

Some of the posts on this thread remind me of the old Kinks tune: Acute schizophrenia paranoia blues.
__________________


there will always be someone claiming paranoia even as they are carrying us away...
:(

[ozwyn]

So, in a city where individual rights are more and more restricted, we have new police units who just cruise around in unmarked vechicles loaded for bear and every now and again make these fake commando JBT shows.

Sirs, put down the mall ninja gear and give back the constitution. Make no sudden moves please.

[Dorryn]

Wilkommen, Sturmtruppe!

[distortion9]

1. Disarm the public....CHECK!

2. Authorize "Stop and Frisk" procedures....CHECK!

3. Create elite "Special Police" team....CHECK!

Scary times indeed.

I was born in the Bronx N.Y. and lived there till I was a teen. Later, I moved out to Long Island, first Nassau County and now I'm in Suffolk. I'm proud as hell to be from NY and it saddens (often times, ANGERS) me to see NY take such a verbal beating when I go on various message boards. Unfortunately, the beatings have become more and more deserved.

New York is an amazing City, especially this time of year. You'll be hard pressed to find a better place on the planet to visit during Christmas time. It's just a shame that the laws and politics are such that it turns people off from visiting. I'm not just talking about you....I'm talking about myself as well. I simply don't go into the City anymore. I'm not paranoid and I'm not afraid, my morals will simply not allow me to support a system I don't believe in.

What makes matters worse is that nothing can be done to change things. I write my letters I vote, make phone calls....in reality, it means nothing and I can't afford to become a full time activist. I won't stop doing my part but we're just out numbered. I hate to sound so pessimistic but, math is math.


"Hercules team"....Jesus, help us.

[ZeSpectre]

New York is an amazing City, especially this time of year. You'll be hard pressed to find a better place on the planet to visit during Christmas time.

Former New Yorker... I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree.

What makes matters worse is that nothing can be done to change things. I write my letters I vote, make phone calls....in reality, it means nothing and I can't afford to become a full time activist. I won't stop doing my part but we're just out numbered. I hate to sound so pessimistic but, math is math.

Which is why I'm a -former- New Yorker.

I've seen police forces becoming so militarized that I'm starting to wonder if they should now fall under the Posse Comitatus Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act).

[dhoomonyou]

BS, play acting by the jack booted thugs in the NYPD.

Make my tin foil hat extra large please.

let NYers exercise 2A rights!

[ZeSpectre]

double post deleted

[Bitmap]

Two carry submachine guns; the others, snub-nosed shotguns.

I'll bet the recoil is a killer.

[Master Blaster]

I FEEL SO MUCH SAFER NOW THAT I KNOW THE GESTAPO AND THE SECRET POLICE ARE PROTECTING THE RICH POWERFULL AND IMPORTANT PEOPLE AND BUILDINGS.

I'm just a little worried about who is going to protect me from getting stomped into mush, if I inadvertantly get in their way.

[BobbyQuickdraw]

Sign me up for the Tinfoil army.

The little boy in me goes "Cool Guns!"
The good little Republican in me goes "Yay fight terrorism!"
But the other 98% of me knows this isn't good.

Cameras on all the corners and heavily armed non-uniformed police patrolling in unmarked cars making "random" shows of force.

...

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I am usually a firm supporter of the police in any of the cop threads on THR.

But this is too far. SWAT teams are supposed to be 100% reactionary. Keep the black SUVs in the motor pool and the black jumpsuits in the locker until a violent standoff is actually happening, then call them to end it if no other way exists. It's Special Weapon And Tactics. Meaning, not the norm. NY needs to cancel these teams and allocate the money hiring more detectives to actually find terrorist plots using research and intelligence, and hiring more normal cops in standard blue uniforms and marked cars. Beat cops are supposed to be people someone can go to for help. If you're lost or your car broke down, or you need to make a phone call, a normal cop is someone you should be unafraid of to go to for help. They are supposed to project a positive image in the community. No-nonsense SWAT teams should be kept back at the station and only deployed when needed.

How many hostage standoffs or violent bank robberies take place in NY in one day? Out of the 51,000 NYPD, I would be that they need maybe 50 SWAT officers at most. A few 8-man teams spread throughout the boroughs. NYPD doesn't need more SWAT guys, they need more smart detectives, and well-trained but courteous beat cops.


I am not sure that I would go as far as to say that this is a deliberate attempt to desensitize us to a police state, but that it may be that the higher-ups really think this is a good idea and have no clue about the civil rights violations inherent in this type of policing. And that is just as bad I think. And the effect is the same, deliberate or not. A few months/years of this and daily SWAT foot patrols all over the city won't seem that crazy to NY.

You just wait, overt patrols are next. Either on foot or more likely mounted in some military vehicle like a HMMWV. First these "Hercules" teams are in normal looking SUVs. Next they will be out in the open in HMMWVs, prolly with a 249 in the turret. "Just to scare the terrorists" of course.

[yesit'sloaded]

So all of us that think that 1984 wasn't a joke are now watching it come true. If Ron Paul is a kook, and these guys are normal, I think it's about time to declare myself a kook too.

[SoonerSP101]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html

Naomi Wolf's 10 steps...

[politicalgeek]

amen...

reminds me to go read 1984 again

It rides that fine line of right and wrong, while it is great that someone is doing something about something we can't be so caught up drinking the kool aid we miss the moment it actually crosses that line.

The cops in New Orleans were just trying to protect the citizens and scare the right people too, I'm sure.

(For the record, I do fully support the police officers that are out there for us...this goes way too far IMHO)

[GTSteve03]

Look what the rest of the country gets to look forward to if Rudy (Mr. NYC) gets elected President!

I can't wait! :rolleyes:

[.41Dave]

Hmmm... Ya know, a smart terrorist might wait until New Yorkers get acclimated to these SuperNinjaSquad runs, then just go buy some cool black ninja suits, body armor, guns, and a black SUV or two. Compliant, pre-conditioned citizens will not know it's a terrorist attack until too late, and when the real NYPD SuperNinjaSquad shows up in response, no one will know which group of thugs is which.

[v35]

I'm just a little worried about who is going to protect me from getting stomped into mush, if I inadvertantly get in their way.
The few shall be stomped into mush, for the good of the many.

USA-Land Über Alles!

[fast eddie]

there will always be someone claiming paranoia even as they are carrying us away...
Hmmm, I have noticed an unusually large number of black helicopters lately...:scrutiny:

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

Actually, I learned long ago, you can trust anyone. There is no reason to doubt or be skeptical. It is a true Americans job to suspect other Americans, but never anyone in authority. They have our best interests at heart, it's for our safety. Just follow the rules, don't complain. And there have never been unmarked black helicopters, unmarked black SUV's, unmarked black clad police, intimidating civilians. Unless needed. It's for your good. Where's my medication?

[K9 PO]

As a law enforcement officer (not NYPD) working in New York City, the idea of Hercules teams roving the streets and if you have lived in NYC for the past few years, CRV (Critical Response) drills are a joke. Federal monies allocated for officer overtime for high profile visibility posts are misappropriated. The officer who is on overtime standing a foot post supposedly to deter terrorists is required to write a certain amount of summonses or lose out on the cash train. The average beat cop for any of the local agencies can tell how their respective departments are using smoke and mirrors to fool the public. That being said, I'd like to respond to some comments a few posters have made.

To the poster from Norway who stated it won't be too long before they jump out and arrest everybody (refering to the Hercules Teams), define everybody? New York City is de facto the most liberal city on the east coast. Believe me if "everyone" was being arrested, the ACLU and local political factions would be up in arms. Politicians in NYC want to deball police and make them play nice with criminals. Google Lt. Governor David Patterson's proposed bill after the Sean Bell shooting for clarification.

To the poster who kept refering to these teams as "SWAT". No such animal exists in New York City. We have an Emergency Service Unit (commonly known as ESU) who are not a reactionary unit. They are on proactive patrol and are more like a fire department rescue company. They are trained in extricating victims from vehicles, rescuing drowning victims, gaining entry into apartments if the victim is unable to open the door., etc. They do get the cool toys to play with though but once again are not REACTIONARY. The members assigned to Hercules Teams are not supercops or other derogatory terms used for law enforcement as I have seen members on this forum use. They are Emergency Service cops assigned to the teams following orders. I don't understand how civilian law enforcement officers are viewed with such contempt for following orders while military soldiers are praised for following orders as well.

I'm not here to flame anyone, just clarifying.

[The Lone Haranguer]

However many of them, however well armed, they won't be around when you need them.

[yesit'sloaded]

Thank you for making our point k9. Police are not there to be a heavily armed patrols. They are on proactive patrol and are more like a fire department rescue company. Since when does a rescue company look like the brute squad? They are Emergency Service cops assigned to the teams following orders. The nazis said that too. I don't understand how civilian law enforcement officers are viewed with such contempt for following orders while military soldiers are praised for following orders as well. Because they are not the military. They may dress like some spec-ops team, but in reality they are just bullies with automatic weapons. When the point is to scare people, it becomes state sanctioned terror. Think about it.

[K9 PO]

Quote:

Since when does a rescue company look like the brute squad?

That's your opinion. We dress appropriately for our jobs.

Quote:

The nazis said that too.

The Nazis also killed millions of Jews indiscriminately. Are you saying anyone who follows orders are Nazis? ESU Cops do not go around targeting Johnny Public and executing him or her based on their race, religion, or creed. Comparing Cops or any other job where there is a chain of command even at a McDonalds to Nazis is absurd. By the same token you can compare Nazis to our brave soldiers in various theathers of operation.

Quote:

Because they are not the military. They may dress like some spec-ops team, but in reality they are just bullies with automatic weapons. When the point is to scare people, it becomes state sanctioned terror. Think about it.

What should they wear then? The purpose of a uniform is to make the individual wearing said uniform easily recognizable as a form of authority. You call them bullies with automatic weapons, once again your personal opinion.

The point of the Hercules teams were not to incite fear and panic in the general population. Original mission of the teams were to disuade potentional terrorists from committing their acts if there was the potential of an omnipresent team specifically created to target THEM. Good idea? Not in my opinion. The Detective making the remark about that's the type of reaction we want to see, could have chosen better words.

I'm not here to get into a measuring contest with you here. Terrorism is defined as acts of violence to induce fear or panic to the public in an attempt to coerce a government into accepting a set of beliefs or to further propaganda. I agreed with posters to the extent that this is a ridiculous show of force but to call the officers assigned to this unit bullies is the equivalent of Rosie O'Donnel calling our armed forces terrorists.

[ptmmatssc]

After reading the whole article , a few more things seemed to make me want to don ye 'ol metal hat .

For the Aviation Unit's airborne patrol, the department last year purchased a helicopter equipped with a high-powered camera that can read a license plate from 2000 ft. Unlike the unit's other six choppers, which are emblazoned with the NYPD logo, this one is unmarked. It regularly monitors crowds at high-profile events, such as the Republican National Convention and New Year's Eve in Times Square.


Lol , so maybe the "black choppers" thing has some credibility .

"If you see [a heavy flashlight], we need to treat it as a suspicious package," Walsh says


:eek:

Walsh checks with his commanders over the radio to see if there are any questions. When he is done, a woman in a navy blue overcoat and knit cap approaches.

"What's going on?" she asks, clearly alarmed.

"It's a counterterrorism exercise, ma'am," Walsh says. "Nothing's wrong."

The woman's face slackens with relief. "Nothing's wrong? Great!"

Yup , nothing to see here , just move along . Btw , do you have your papers ?

[yesit'sloaded]

A stone's throw down the sidewalk, Abad Nieves watches the scene unfold. Nieves is a detective with the Intelligence Division of the New York Police Department (NYPD). Casually clad in slacks and a black leather jacket, he monitors the response of people loitering in the area. Is anyone making notes or videotaping? Does anyone seem especially startled by the out-of-the-blue appearance of a heavily armed NYPD squad?QUOTE]
So if I get startled by the out-of-the-blue appearance of a heavily armed squad of guys I must be up to no good? ***?

[QUOTE]"The response we usually get is, 'Holy s---!'" Nieves says. "That's the reaction we want. We are in the business of scaring people"[/
Lets see what old Webster has to say:
ter·ror
Pronunciation:
\ˈter-ər, ˈte-rər\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French terrour, from Latin terror, from terrēre to frighten; akin to Greek trein to be afraid, flee, tremein to tremble — more at tremble
Date:
14th century

1: a state of intense fear2 a: one that inspires fear : scourge b: a frightening aspect <the terrors of invasion> c: a cause of anxiety : worry

So it is terror, and it is state sanctioned. I rest my case.

[Nomad101bc]

Thinks of a few scenes from the movie "Equalibrium".

http://thecia.com.au/reviews/e/images/equilibrium-10.jpg

[K9 PO]

Quote:

So it is terror, and it is state sanctioned. I rest my case.

So definitive and concise. Once again, your opinion. I haven't seen any of these terroristic cops execute someone like the Nazis you compared them to.

[ptmmatssc]

Terrorism is defined as acts of violence to induce fear or panic

ter·ror·ism /ˈtɛrəˌrɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ter-uh-riz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.

threat (thrět) Pronunciation Key
n.

1. An expression of an intention to inflict pain, injury, evil, or punishment.
2. An indication of impending danger or harm.
3. One that is regarded as a possible danger; a menace.





What should they wear then? The purpose of a uniform is to make the individual wearing said uniform easily recognizable as a form of authority.

So , was the standard police uniform not being recognized any more? People mistaking nypd with the milk man ?

[dasmi]

http://www.german-helmets.com/WSS/SS-M1942.jpg

[dasmi]

So definitive and concise. Once again, your opinion. I haven't seen any of these terroristic cops execute someone like the Nazis you compared them to.
Give it time.


www.cato.org/raidmap.

[K9 PO]

Not to be rude but are you from NYC? There are security guards whose uniforms AND vehicles look identical to NYPD in NYC. The only difference of what these cops are wearing and the regular patrol cop is body armor over standard shirt, and a helmet instead of an 8 point hat. Each unit in NYPD has a specific duty uniform and that has been around since the formation of the PD. Let me tell you how politically sensitive NY is. Years ago when patrol cops were issued leather duty jackets, certain groups voiced their opinions about the resemblence of these cops to the Gestapo and the jackets were no longer allowed.

[yesit'sloaded]

Let me tell you how politically sensitive NY is. Years ago when patrol cops were issued leather duty jackets, certain groups voiced their opinions about the resemblence of these cops to the Gestapo and the jackets were no longer allowed. It obviously isn't that way now. There are security guards whose uniforms AND vehicles look identical to NYPD in NYC. Then pass a law restricting them to not impersonate the PD.
Each unit in NYPD has a specific duty uniform and that has been around since the formation of the PD. So which one got the brute squad uniform in the beginning.
The point of the Hercules teams were not to incite fear and panic in the general population. Lying to yourself is not going to make it better. Don't believe everything you are told or hear.

[yesit'sloaded]

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:raKkV7eug3k8IM:http://www.westchestergov.com/hr/images/Police.jpg
May we help you.
http://bp2.blogger.com/_6jSCtuQ-LzA/RmgwQStLqKI/AAAAAAAAAic/gkPrHyn2Ppo/s200/swat+tank.jpg
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:XRfdSA2P1FVYhM:http://www.ccso.charlestoncounty.org/images/SWAT/SWAT%25201.JPG
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:dyxOh3s7H61cPM:http://z.about.com/d/kansascity/1/0/l/0/-/-/SergeantJimCarmody.JPG
Papers Please!
Can you tell the police from the paramilitary forces?

[BobbyQuickdraw]

I for one am not putting any blame on the officers. They didn't come up with and implement this. This was a political or bureaucratic decision somewhere.

And I think the Nazi thing isn't always a great argument. The cops are doing what they're told and before someone says "So were the SS" don't forget that cops and soldiers are supposed to follow orders. Disobeying an order isn't some casual decision, it becomes a big deal.

So if some captain is like "Get all tactical and pop out at Giant Stadium and look badass" the cop is like "Ok."

That being said, I don't necessarily think what's going on is a good thing. In war, the difference between a soldier and a terrorist is often just a uniform. Clearly identified combatants.

If the cops strip themselves of all identification, what should the citizens be thinking? Are they cops or some bad guys right out of Die Hard?

[Rich K]

Makes me glad I don't live in NYC.
And I am more scared of the police than terrorists. Just my .02.

[yesit'sloaded]

If they have the identification are they just terrorists in with police patches? Both of my grandfathers never saw the need to terrorize people when they were LEOs. Of course that was back in the day when people were not afraid of the police. Most LEOs I try to talk to treat me like a lower-than-thou commoner. This has been a change that I can remember. When I was five every day an officer drove through the neighborhood and we would wave at him or chat for a while about what was going on in the neighborhood. When I was twelve we had a car stolen and the police came over and checked it out. They actually got out of their cars and looked around. When I was sixteen my dad got mugged at gunpoint in the front yard. Cops didn't show up for thirty minutes. Didn't seem to care when they did. It was around that time that some of the department switched to a more "tactical" uniform. Shaved head, bloused boots, web belt, all black, and sunglasses. Around seventeen I met a good cop and probably saw him every other day as he would stop and chat when he would stop on patrol (I worked at a business with a lot of expensive merchandise). I personally saw him save a guy's life after the guy had an epileptic seizure while driving. The problem is that he is a shining light in a dark place. The good guys are out there and I respect them. But for every one of them it seems there is a bad one as well as a decent one that covers for the bad one, which is just as bad if not worse as it continues the pattern.

[SSN Vet]

so... how exactly is this going to prevent the car bomb in the underground parking lot from going off?

or... how is it going to prevent five men of middle eastern decent between the ages of 20 and 45 from hijacking a 747 (with their fists and shoe strings) and flying it into the building.

this is all about one thing and one thing only....

POLITICS....

playing on peoples fears and making a statement that you're "doing something".

[yesit'sloaded]

It is also desensitizing the public to heavily armed patrols. Random arrests will follow, dissenters will be declared terrorists, those of us that would have made a stand realize it is too late, and we will lose everything this country was supposed to be.

[Sistema1927]

Another reason not to visit New York. (Of course, this is coming soon to a town near you.)

Would any of this have prevented 9/11?

What if the terrorists mimic this, and drive up in their own unmarked van full of jihadists in similar gear?

[K9 PO]

quote:

It is also desensitizing the public to heavily armed patrols. Random arrests will follow, dissenters will be declared terrorists, those of us that would have made a stand realize it is too late, and we will lose everything this country was supposed to be.

Didn't realize you were a psychic, could you tell me the winning lottery numbers for tommorow night?

Quote:

When I was sixteen my dad got mugged at gunpoint in the front yard. Cops didn't show up for thirty minutes. Didn't seem to care when they did. It was around that time that some of the department switched to a more "tactical" uniform. Shaved head, bloused boots, web belt, all black, and sunglasses.

I'm sorry for what happened to your father but do you think perhaps the cops that responded to your call were just lazy cops. Maybe it was a mixup at the dispatchers that relayed the wrong message? I don't see a direct correlation between attitude and uniform. When they showed up did they bash your head in like the Nazis you alluded to earlier?

Quote:

Around seventeen I met a good cop and probably saw him every other day as he would stop and chat when he would stop on patrol (I worked at a business with a lot of expensive merchandise). I personally saw him save a guy's life after the guy had an epileptic seizure while driving. The problem is that he is a shining light in a dark place.

This cop you met must have been wearing the "Brute Squad" outfit since you said it was after most departments switched uniforms. I'm surprised he was that friendly to you and didn't bash your skull in. Did he scare you with his tactical outfit?

You are reaching with many of your arguments. You're saying if A happens then B and C WILL FOLLOW without chance. Let me reiterate my position on this topic..


I THINK THIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY AND MANPOWER AND IS NOTHING MORE THAN A RIDICULOUS SHOW OF FORCE THAT WILL NOT DETER TERRORISM

Once again, I'm still waiting for these cops to summarily execute someone on the streets. Given it's been about 5 years since the program was implemented, I can't see that happening. I grew up in NYC, live here, and work in one of the least desirable neighborhoods in the 5 boroughs. I think I can comment on the politics behind this whole program with some sort of authority than someone from San Diego. It is not about scaring the public or "terrorizing" them but as
SSN Vet so eloquently put it:

this is all about one thing and one thing only....

POLITICS....

playing on peoples fears and making a statement that you're "doing something".

And that's what its all about.

Quote:

Would any of this have prevented 9/11?

Of course not, but what did you personally do to prevent 9/11?

Quote:

What if the terrorists mimic this, and drive up in their own unmarked van full of jihadists in similar gear?

What if they hijack another plane and repeat 9/11? What if this and what if that...

A whole bunch of what if questions. It is not a question of what if the terrorists attack again but rather WHEN. Hell, what if Iran decides to say screw America and start to give away their enriched uranium?

[Sistema1927]

K9 PO,

You have already conceded that none of this is doing any good. I would argue that it is turning our Country into a police state.

Why should we be happy with our tax dollars being used to militarize our police forces? I assume that "K9 PO" means that you are a K9 Police Officer, and for that I applaud you. However, please don't succumb to the current level of thinking in some law enforcement circles that police officers need to become paramilitary in order to be effective in their jobs.

[K9 PO]

Sistema,

I personally believe cops should not be fighting this war on terror as that is a task best suited to our alphabet soup agencies and armed forces. While you argue that this initiative is turning the country into a police state, I argue it has to do with the politics of NYC and nothing else. Its a dog any pony show.

I believe LE should follow orders and have an established chain of command but as to walking the streets with heavy weapons or dressed like military operators? Nah, its hard enough eating a donut with all this equipment around my waist, I don't need an M4 slung across my chest.

Some of my best work was done in plainclothes...I ruffled too many feathers and they saddled me with a dog and uniform. So to answer your question, no we don't need to be paramilitary to do our jobs effectively but I don't think local law enforcement should hunt terrorists unless theres a clear indication that they are in our jurisdiction.

[Sistema1927]

Nah, its hard enough eating a donut with all this equipment around my waist

I like your sense of humor.

Stay safe.

[K9 PO]

Thank you sir, you as well.

[DoubleTapDrew]

The cops are doing what they're told and before someone says "So were the SS" don't forget that cops and soldiers are supposed to follow orders. Disobeying an order isn't some casual decision, it becomes a big deal.
I don't think it's right to equate cops and soldiers when it comes to following orders. Soldiers aren't sent home on paid administrative leave if they disobey an order or shoot the wrong people. A soldier can't say "this is going too far, here's my badge. I quit".
I don't know how far these tacticool guys would go for their paycheck. The cops in N.O. went pretty far. Some things are more important than your job.
And I am more scared of the police than terrorists.
Scared? Good. Mission accomplished. If terrorists aren't scared of an M1 Abrams or a Blackhawk cruising their neighborhood they ain't going to be scared of cops with short shotguns and poodle shooters.
While you argue that this initiative is turning the country into a police state, I argue it has to do with the politics of NYC and nothing else. Its a dog any pony show.

I hope you are right. We shall see.


On the bright side...I bet a large percentage of THR members would look a lot like those guys in a bug-out situation :neener:

[littlegator]

Don't worry, those are just the Extreme Shock ammo guys marketing their wares.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

When I was sixteen my dad got mugged at gunpoint in the front yard. Cops didn't show up for thirty minutes. Didn't seem to care when they did. It was around that time that some of the department switched to a more "tactical" uniform. Shaved head, bloused boots, web belt, all black, and sunglasses.

I'm sorry for what happened to your father but do you think perhaps the cops that responded to your call were just lazy cops. Maybe it was a mixup at the dispatchers that relayed the wrong message? I don't see a direct correlation between attitude and uniform. When they showed up did they bash your head in like the Nazis you alluded to earlier?

Also consider that yesitsloaded was only 16 at the time. I am pretty sure that cops don't let people in on every detail of their job, especially kids. Just because some 16 year old doesn't personally observe the police doing their job, doesn't mean they aren't doing it.

[K9 PO]

Quote:

Also consider that yesitsloaded was only 16 at the time. I am pretty sure that cops don't let people in on every detail of their job, especially kids. Just because some 16 year old doesn't personally observe the police doing their job, doesn't mean they aren't doing it.

When we use necessary force to subdue a violent felon, some accuse us of excessive force. Others want us to shoot of an arm or leg if we have a gun aimed at us. Truth be told, there are some impossible standards out there to measure up to such as yesitsloaded's. He alludes to the fact that in his grandfathers age, police didn't "terrorize" people. IIRC, Cops were very brutal back in the day . Stories of shinbone alley are not uncommon. Drinking on duty, gambling, etc. Policing has evolved. You don't believe me and still have this wonderful view of cops in your grandfathers age, see Miranda V. Arizona, Tenn. V. Garner and other SC rulings prohibiting 4th and 8th amendment violations by the police. I'm calling a spade a spade and those are the facts.

[K9 PO]

Quote:

Also consider that yesitsloaded was only 16 at the time. I am pretty sure that cops don't let people in on every detail of their job, especially kids. Just because some 16 year old doesn't personally observe the police doing their job, doesn't mean they aren't doing it.

When we use necessary force to subdue a violent felon, some accuse us of excessive force. Others want us to shoot of an arm or leg if we have a gun aimed at us. Truth be told, there are some impossible standards out there to measure up to such as yesitsloaded's. He alludes to the fact that in his grandfathers age, police didn't "terrorize" people. IIRC, Cops were very brutal back in the day . Stories of shinbone alley are not uncommon. Drinking on duty, gambling, etc. Policing has evolved. You don't believe me and still have this wonderful view of cops in your grandfathers age, see Miranda V. Arizona, Tenn. V. Garner and other SC rulings prohibiting 4th and 8th amendment violations by the police. I'm calling a spade a spade and those are the facts.

[ServiceSoon]

Makes me glad I don't live in NYC.+1
And I am more scared of the police than terrorists. Just my .02.+2

[average_shooter]

It is not about scaring the public or "terrorizing" them but as
SSN Vet so eloquently put it:

this is all about one thing and one thing only....

POLITICS....

playing on peoples fears and making a statement that you're "doing something".

And that's what its all about.

Emphasis added. Um, you seem to be contradicting yourself here...

[kludge]

and shut these clowns down before it's "papers please"

Been on an airplane lately?

Do you have a job?

Bank account?

Mortgage?

Car Insurance?

Health Insurance?

Driver's license?


Last time I was at the doctor, I left the SSN line blank.

When I left and was paying, I noticed that the nice lady was filling out my SSN for me. Anybody know how she got it? Little wonder that it's so easy to steal someones identity. Our government created the means to make it possible. And forces you to use everywhere you go.

[yesit'sloaded]

I'm pretty sure not even getting out of the car counts as lazy. We later found the wallet on our own as the guy had dropped it four blocks away. I already said not all LEOs are bad, but that there are enough good ones that stand by to make it look as if they are all bad. Then again I am from Jackson, Mississippi. As of right now the county sheriff is also the police chief because the last one got fired.

[The Gunman]

Did I see a swastika on his shoulder?

Seems to be the exact reason the framers penned "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

"A well regulated militia,..."=A properly working and practiced group able to defend freedom.

"...,being necessary to the security of a free state,..."=Must exist for freedom to exist.

"...the right of the people..."=An ability that can not be taken away, not a privilege, belonging to those who comprise said state.

"...to keep and bear arms..."=To posess and carry weapons.

"...shall not be infringed."=Is not to be prohibited, restricted, or denied.

Hell, I'm no English Professor or Lawyer and I can understand what this means. I am pretty sure the framers intended this right as a safeguard against tyrranical police states as well.

[grimjaw]

"The response we usually get is, 'Holy s---!'" Nieves says. "That's the reaction we want. We are in the business of scaring people--we just want to scare the right people."

"Quick Sergeant Pulaski, get out the terror meter and see if the fear quota has been reached!"

Just shows me we haven't done diddly @#$@ to lower the threat level in this country, if the powers that be in NYC feel they have to wield such a blunt, inefficient instrument on the local populace.

jm

[K9 PO]

New York City in the aftermath of the terrorist attacks of 9/11 received billions of dollars from the Feds. In the ensuing years, NYC continues to receive money from the Feds for anti-terror campaigns. Unfortunately, the money is being used to pad overtime for POLICE to issue summons for violations in order to generate revenue for the city. It is all a numbers game. By depicting NYC as a major terrorist target (and it is, where else in the US have middle eastern islamofacists attacked twice? not to mention it is still the de facto financial capital of the world), Mayor Doomberg will ensure we get that federal money to generate income.

This is not a plan for a police state. You need to understand the dynamics of NYC politics. Democrat Bloomberg will never stand for a police state...NYC has not had a mayor that is a TRUE CONSERVATIVE MAYOR in ages. Do you really think a liberal mayor wants to see his police empowered any more? This is a mayor that doesn't want anyone carrying guns and begrudgingly allows his own police to not carry off duty much less on duty.

All this talk about a police state...maybe it'll be more likely to happen elsewhere.

NYC = 9 Million Residents

4 boroughs out of 5 vote Democrat. The lone borough of Staten Island consists of mostly Republicans is less then a million residents....

[Autolycus]

Originally posted by S&Wfan:
Naawww . . . most decent citizens down here grew up in the country hunting and fishing. We know how to shoot and many are legally "packin" . . . and if a terrorist starts some stuff down here they won't go too far before someone ends the problem with a head shot.


Just like the Olympic bombing? Sorry but your wrong in that CCW will solve terrorism. It may help but I doubt your anecdote has any real merit to it.

It doesnt matter in the case of bombings. this is nothing but a show of force to subject citizens to this kind of police display. Siglite was right in his initial post in this thread. Count me as a tinfoil hatter.

[The Gunman]

"This is not a plan for a police state. You need to understand the dynamics of NYC politics. Democrat Bloomberg will never stand for a police state...NYC has not had a mayor that is a TRUE CONSERVATIVE MAYOR in ages. Do you really think a liberal mayor wants to see his police empowered any more?"

K9 PO,

I don't think this is a liberal/conservative issue, as both camps seem to be in the same business. Do some research and you will find the Republican party was a split off of the Democrat party in the 1850's. While the Democrats seem to create a policy of "only the Government knows best" the Republicans lean more toward a "leave it to the people and they will take the right course" approach, both end up keeping or building the power gained from elected positions.

The militization of the police forces is just another way to show the people that the government is the reigning power. I know none of us where there to see it, but we have in our blood the memory of a time when the government provided law enforcement and public safety by stationing military forces among the people.

I believe most of us want to be able to trust the police officer and for the most part we do. We just don't trust the power of the official commanding them from an elected office.

[K9 PO]

Quote:

The militization of the police forces is just another way to show the people that the government is the reigning power. I know none of us where there to see it, but we have in our blood the memory of a time when the government provided law enforcement and public safety by stationing military forces among the people.

Gunman, I can understand what you're saying in regards to memories of the past. The sight of heavily armed men in bunker gear is a disturbing site and on 9/11 as I made my way over the Queensboro Bridge and saw a US Marshall in body armor and a M4 Carbine in port arms position at the entrance to the bridge I was disturbed. Did it make me feel any safer? Hell no. But this is all posturing. This is exactly what deploying the Hercules Team is all about. To maintain the illusion that the government is doing something about the terrorism threat while at the same time collecting money from the Feds hand over fist because we are still a "high priority" target by middle eastern terrorists. As long as the money keeps coming, you will see these men and women around.

[The Gunman]

It is all about getting more of our money via the Federal Government taxes, and using that money to keep their power.

[karz10]

So, I see two things wrong w/ this, well at least two:

1 - Someone mistakes them for a terrorist and starts a potentially deadly confrontation, although it's a 'gun free' city, but still...

2 - People get desensitized to this sort of thing and criminals/terrorists pretend to be them as a cover for an operation, even if it only buys them a little time, it may be enough time to position themselves and slow response time, etc.

There are other issues, but those two seem to jump out to me...

Karz

[K9 PO]

Quote:

The Gunman
It is all about getting more of our money via the Federal Government taxes, and using that money to keep their power.

And it's all about politics..you make it seem that we average citizens are powerless against this government and forget we partake in the democratic process and VOTE these guys in or out of office.

Quote:

1 - Someone mistakes them for a terrorist and starts a potentially deadly confrontation, although it's a 'gun free' city, but still...

Well, when that mistake happens, it will very likely be a cop shooting a cop. Not your average Joe due to the absurd gun laws here in NY. It would be a tragedy but blue on blue fire is not uncommon.

Quote:

2 - People get desensitized to this sort of thing and criminals/terrorists pretend to be them as a cover for an operation, even if it only buys them a little time, it may be enough time to position themselves and slow response time, etc.

I would not even be surprised if there are terrorists that are cops already in NYC. It's not impossible to infiltrate an organization, ask Robert Hanssen or Ed Ames.

The terrorists coordinated the hijaking of airplanes and crashing them into multiple targets on 9/11..they are smart, cunning and ruthless. They probably already thought of impersonating cops or soldiers. These are not dumb animals...For all we know they already have a set up similar to the one deployed by NYPD. Refer to my earlier posting regarding all these what if questions.

It's not will the terrorists attack. It's WHEN they will attack, the method of attack and how many lives will be lost.

[DoubleTapDrew]

It's not will the terrorists attack. It's WHEN they will attack, the method of attack and how many lives will be lost.

If we choose not to ignore history, recent and over the past decades, it won't be a squad of dudes armed with AK's where we can just send in Chuck Norris. It's bombs or chemicals or both (or heaven forbid, nuclear). I think you are right that it's a political show of force, but I think what's more concerning are if there are other reasons beyond that. If it is simply a show of force I can't imagine why they wouldn't be clearly identified. Are they testing the waters of public reaction to this type of thing, or desensitizing the public to it?
They aren't dumb enough to think these guys will do any good against terrorists. A new tacticool bomb-sniffing K9 squad would make more sense since that's the preferred weapon (I don't think another aircraft attack would happen, passengers would fight to the death and the last man after 9/11)

[K9 PO]

There probably won't be enough time to apply the K9 sniffers if a bomb is employed. These guys aren't going to wait until the area is dispersed. They want maximum casualties plus a secondary attack to take out first responders.

Secondly, these cops are clearly identifiable. NYPD Patch on the shoulder, Unit patch on the other, big bold letters on the back of their armor "NYPD EMERGENCY SERVICE UNIT" and on the front of their armor in Bold lettering "NYPD ESU" plus their name, rank, and shield number. Same design on their BDU shirts and jackets.

The only thing is an unmarked vehicle.

[geophysicishooter]

to: K9 PO
re: shoulder patches/insignias.


That's fine and all but anyone with the will and enough resources could easily replicate all those markings and/or find "real-enough" badges to sew on a set of surplus BDU's to make themselves look like the real McCoy. Again, I don't think the issue of how to keep folks from empersonating these "tactical teams", to whatever end, has been thoroughly addressed.

I still stand by my original thought that if I see guys with AR's and/or "snub nosed shotguns" (I still get a kick out of that one) jumping out of a black suburban wearing kevlar, I hope I'll be thinking 'bad guy' and not 'ah, probably just another drill' (to quote an annonymous stormtrooper). Once the public as a whole starts thinking the latter and not the former, we all might as well just forget about living in a free society. Maybe that's the point...
------------------------------------
***subtly, almost imperceptively, gesturing with right index finger***

"These are not the droids you're looking for.."

[K9 PO]

No one said the uniform would be difficult to manufacture or duplicate.

Quote:

Again, I don't think the issue of how to keep folks from empersonating these "tactical teams", to whatever end, has been thoroughly addressed.

We don't give these terrorists enough credit. They are cunning and devious. If they want to impersonate the cops they would do it. It's just a question of WHEN.

Quote:

to quote an annonymous stormtrooper

And what made the cop a "stormtrooper"?

I see a whole lot of what if scenarios being argued by some posters but if living in the U.S. is so bad, and many of you guys forsee a downfall of the republic and an encroachment of your rights, you guys should try to get elected to public office and do something about instead of putting politicians who are "creating a police state" there.

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

I am still settling from having a lengthy and well written response deleted by accident. I'll give it another round.

It's important to involve the perspective and discussion from the NY LEO because it sharpens the debate. I'll begin by addressing a few comments directly and then give a conclusion that gets right to the heart of the matter.

They do get the cool toys to play with though but once again are not REACTIONARY.

The fact that they are not reactionary is a point of contention for many people. That these teams are becoming SOP is a point that some have brought up but needed reiteration.

The members assigned to Hercules Teams are not supercops or other derogatory terms used for law enforcement as I have seen members on this forum use.

The term SUPERCOPS was coined by the authors of the original article, not THR members. I would say that it was not derogatory and if it were blame should rest with the authors at Popular Mechanics. Even so, I'm sure the teams involved were aware of how they would be presented to the public which would mean tacit approval of the term. Unimportant nonetheless.

They are Emergency Service cops assigned to the teams following orders. I don't understand how civilian law enforcement officers are viewed with such contempt for following orders while military soldiers are praised for following orders as well.


As a former member of the U.S. Armed Forces I can understand the frustration. Comparing the police, however, to the military leads to the conclusion I offer.

For most of us, this article is not a stand alone force on our psyche. It is in context of a other trends and forces which many of us have found bothersome for some time. These are both in the form of laws, media bias, and purposeful disinformation regarding firearms and the role of the individual in society. While THR members run the gamut from "nothing happening" to "they are coming to get me", most can agree that there is a process of Incrementalism which is slowly eroding liberties and giving more uncontested authority to State powers in the name of fighting 'terrorism'. This 'terrorism' fear leads to greater and greater sacrifices in privacy, validity of dissident thought, and equality of status with those in power.

This is directly related to the right to keep and bear arms.

RKBA is an equalizing factor between classes; common, and elite.

The steady militarization of police forces is something that is occurring and is disturbing to many. Using a military force to police citizens as SOP has for most of our history been illegal under Posse Comitatus laws, which are now null and void. The article itself notes the observation of behaviors (thoughts), which should be quite normal, as potentially suspicious.

Yes, perhaps some have overreacted to the presence of militarized police at random locations. However, I think overreaction is good. It would take the highest level of vigilance to stay informed and alert and notice these changes, and talk about them, and it is too easy to sit idle and watch them happen.

What is happening is the steady replacing of one's right to self protection to protection by the State. As the State authority takes more and more the role of individual protection, the right to keep and bear arms not only loses validity in the eyes of policy makers, it also threatens the status of those who assert military style control. This process is hastened in an environment of constant fear. For us, currently, it is the fear of terrorism.

Against a backdrop of pressure against citizen rights, in the context of an endless threat from invisible killers, surrounded by authorities who continue the drive to protect us in exchange for the freedom that defines us as a nation (or has in the past anyway), this article is exactly what it appears to be - a test of heavily armed men without ID patrolling citizens, gauging reactions, and appearing at random for the purpose of intimidation.

It is reasonable to assume this may occur elsewhere, without opposition now, and increase in frequency marking a huge change in the conduct of civilian police. It is doubtful that the same forces that would condone such behavior, whose stated goals are "to scare people", would long permit citizens to carry weapons that equalize the status between those in positions of power, and the common citizen.

As a history major I can also note that while this is not Hitler at work, the fact that comparisons can even be made is noteworthy. For many shooters a future where everything is under tight control and 'freedom' is a thing of the past is a very real possibility. We hope that through political action and peer education we can slow the process because ultimately the fate of our country may be at stake. This article simply affirms a deep seated fear, one that strikes us in a more profound way than some maniacal religious fanatics from the desert.

Americans can handle dirty bombs. We will survive crashing planes. We will overcome sleeper cells. But incremental fascism in the name of security, the crackdown on counterthought and discussion in the name of political correctness, and the technological rule of citizens that seems to be occurring is something that appears frightfully inevitable, and the one thing we may not overcome so easily.

For that reason, this article frightens me more than any bearded, plane flying, ak wielding, lunatic. It frightens me because it's my own country.

ST

[Autolycus]

Originally posted by Jakewensonmt: So all the muslims have to do is get a black SUV, ski masks, and some surplus weapons and armor, and all the sheeple will stand back and let them pass.


What do you mean all the Muslims? Dont you mean terrorists?

I think you should memorize this and try to understand it....

Not All Muslims are Terrorists. Not all terrorists are Muslims.

Your broad general statements are disturbing. Its scary that such anti-Isalmic sentiment still exists and on a board run by a Muslim person no less.

[Autolycus]

Originally posted by SSN VET: so... how exactly is this going to prevent the car bomb in the underground parking lot from going off?

or... how is it going to prevent five men of middle eastern decent between the ages of 20 and 45 from hijacking a 747 (with their fists and shoe strings) and flying it into the building.

this is all about one thing and one thing only....

POLITICS....

playing on peoples fears and making a statement that you're "doing something".
Exactly. When some Christian terrorist decides to run up and shoot some non-believer in the head it will probably be to late after they execute their victim.

Or if some Jewish terrorist group decides to copy 9/11 and attempts to hijack a plane, will a hercules team stop them?

What about if some Catholic IRA members decide a car bomb is more useful and park a church bus in front of some building?

What if Christian Identity members decide that hand grenades are necessary and toss them into subway tunnels?

Or some European Men decide to use Sarin gas to emulate the old Aum Shinrikyo movement?

So many possibilities. And the Hercules team seems nothing more than an empty show of force.

[Cosmoline]

The people the NYPD hopes to scare are the ideological brothers of the Islamic extremists who have successfully attacked New York City twice in the past 13 years

Ah, correct me if I'm wrong but a bunch of jackboots with tacticool crudola on can't scare jets away no matter how hard they try.

And how the devil do you scare off someone who WANTS TO DIE anyway?

Sometimes I think we're so profoundly stupid we DESERVE to get hit again.

But never fear! THe HercTac team will be there to make sure nobody leaves the area as the sarin gas spreads out.

[K9 PO]

Sam,

Bravo, excellent post! I'd also like to thank you for your service to our nation, and a thank you to all the veterans on the forum.

I agree with you when you say we are giving up some of our liberties in the name of terrorism as a parallel to a police state where secret courts exist and the government is able to come into our homes and violate our 4th Amendment rights with sneak and peek warrants. It is also appauling to see terrorism as an excuse for eroding said rights. I further agree that this show of force is unnecessary.

I have faith in the American people to hold on to our rights and not relinquish them without a fight. For the record, I posted my opinions in regards to why I believe the police are being deployed in this matter.

[geophysicishooter]

K9,

That's kinda what I meant.. The bad guys are dangerous enough without the benefit our "our government" desensitizing us to armed shock troops randomly showing up whenever and wherever some sargent thinks will make an impressive showing.. I realize this is only in the biggest and most major of cities (at the moment) but the blueprint has been laid out, it seems, by the very people who's job it is "to serve and protect". Black suburban-limo tint, blue/black bdu's or urban camo, ar-15's and sawed off shotties, kevlar, crowd control, shock and awe.. Not that it's such a hard formula to figure out but why go out and make a point of demostrating how to assault a building while keeping people on the street from interfering.. just doesn't seem "tactically' savy..

why not start setting real buildings on fire so we can train firefighters how to put out fires and perform rescues? makes about as much sense.. doesn't the military have mocked up cities as training facilities for this type of thing?? why not train in that type of environment instead of introducing so many moving parts, ie the public, into the equation??

I side with those on the board that say this type of "training exercise" is totally unnecessary at best, and at worst, *tinfoil hat, engage* a step on a slippery slope towards fascism. *tinfoil hat, disengage*

As far as my discontent with the performances of our politicians and my running for office.. I'd love to but I wasn't born into the American Nobility, I've never been to the Hamptons, Martha's Vineyard or Kinnebunkport, I'm related to nor am I dating and plan to marry anyone named Kennedy or Bush, nor am I independently wealthy or have the financial backing of any major political lobbies. And finally, I never served in the military, so I don't carry around the "veteran" moniker to lend credibility to my name. So untill I win the lotto (which will never happen 'cause I don't play and even if I did, do you think I would spend it running for office?) I'll have to content myself with voting for and backing the political candidate who's views on the issues most closely match my own.

Oh, and the stormtrooper comment was an allusion to Star Wars when Ben Kenobi was disarming the tractor beam (episode 4), not a comparison between a beat cop and a stormtrooper.. ah, but see, here's the thing.. the guys we're talking about aren't beat cops and aren't presenting themselves as beat cops. they're not walking around with a glock and a night stick and a pair of handcuffs, getting cats out of trees and writing speeding tickets.. they're wheeling up unannounced in an unmarked (probably bullet proof) suburban (at that point it becomes an armored transport vehicle), jumping out wearing what can only be described as combat gear and taking up tactical positions to assault an occupied building. if that's not the definition of "stormtrooper", I defy you to define for us what, in the modern day, would constitute a "stormtrooper"...

[K9 PO]

Quote:

Black suburban-limo tint, blue/black bdu's or urban camo, ar-15's and sawed off shotties, kevlar, crowd control, shock and awe.. Not that it's such a hard formula to figure out but why go out and make a point of demostrating how to assault a building while keeping people on the street from interfering.. just doesn't seem "tactically' savy..

The purpose of these teams were to deter terrorists from possibly doing something at a location, not to demonstrate how to assault a building. It is smoke and mirrors and is unnecessary, I agree for the thousandth time.

Quote:

why not start setting real buildings on fire so we can train firefighters how to put out fires and perform rescues? makes about as much sense.. doesn't the military have mocked up cities as training facilities for this type of thing?? why not train in that type of environment instead of introducing so many moving parts, ie the public, into the equation??

I side with those on the board that say this type of "training exercise" is totally unnecessary at best, and at worst, *tinfoil hat, engage* a step on a slippery slope towards fascism. *tinfoil hat, disengage*

It is not a training exercise, it's an actual sho of force to deter potential terrorists which I believe to be stupid. They show up, there's terrorists. They hold a sign up saying we're terrorists but are just holding a sign. All those heavy weapons and not one would be legally allowed to pull a trigger.

Quote:

As far as my discontent with the performances of our politicians and my running for office.. I'd love to but I wasn't born into the American Nobility, I've never been to the Hamptons, Martha's Vineyard or Kinnebunkport, I'm related to nor am I dating and plan to marry anyone named Kennedy or Bush, nor am I independently wealthy or have the financial backing of any major political lobbies. And finally, I never served in the military, so I don't carry around the "veteran" moniker to lend credibility to my name. So untill I win the lotto (which will never happen 'cause I don't play and even if I did, do you think I would spend it running for office?) I'll have to content myself with voting for and backing the political candidate who's views on the issues most closely match my own.

Are you asserting that to be a politician in the US you have to be noble, rich, and a veteran? How the heck did Rudy G. get elected to mayor of our city? What about Sharpe James? If you have the drive to be a politician, I will support you if you and I can agree on the issues. To state one can not be a politician because of A, B, or C is a cop out.

Quote:

but see, here's the thing.. the guys we're talking about aren't beat cops and aren't presenting themselves as beat cops. they're not walking around with a glock and a night stick and a pair of handcuffs, getting cats out of trees and writing speeding tickets.. they're wheeling up unannounced in an unmarked (probably bullet proof) suburban (at that point it becomes an armored transport vehicle), jumping out wearing what can only be described as combat gear and taking up tactical positions to assault an occupied building. if that's not the definition of "stormtrooper", I defy you to define for us what, in the modern day, would constitute a "stormtrooper"...

I never gotten a cat out a tree, the last time I wrote someone for going 5 over the limit I lost in court. But the last time I served a warrant I was in plainclothes with body armor and I have a shaved head. My team along with city police took down a door where they were distributing narcotics and recovered illicit substances along with defaced firearms. Did I mention I work in a "housing development" commonly referred to as projects? We froze the street to the building to the floor and kept passing civilians from their business of returning home temporarily. Does that qualify any of us stormtroopers when we took out some really bad apples by force? I mean, we did jump out and alarm people as we dashed or "assaulted" the building and all.

[Sage of Seattle]

The people the NYPD hopes to scare are the ideological brothers of the Islamic extremists who have successfully attacked New York City twice in the past 13 years


How about a slightly different perspective? "...who have successfully attacked New York City twice in the past two hundred and thirty years."



And how the devil do you scare off someone who WANTS TO DIE anyway?

Simple. You don't.

[geophysicishooter]

K9,

I intend no ill-regard for the police. They do their jobs, like anyone else. Unlike most people, they risk taking one in the chest everytime they go to work. For that, all cops deserve respect and they have mine. I hope that's clear. I won't speak for anyone else here but I have nothing short of respect for cops and the work they do.

I think the issue most here have is not with the guys in the bdu's toting m16's but with the policies and decision making that put them in that situation. And regardless of what the actuall purpose is or was for the show of force in this case, the effect on the public is a disturbing one that has spawned a debate here that has raged for the last several days..

And, yes, in the most technical of senses, youand your fellow officers who went on the drug bust with you were "shock troops" that day. your purpose was to attack using the element of surprise and breach the defenses of your target. 'Shock Troop' re: wikipedia. But you weren't sporting the fashionable look of an urban commando, either. Good, bad or indifferent, People are used to seeing 'plain clothes cops' as the purpose of plain clothes dress is to blend in and to aviod being recogniseable while the stated purpose of the Herc Team is to be as recognizeable as a "force" as possible.

I commend you for your work, though I'm sure you'd just call it doing your job. The next time I patronize my local neighborhood crackhouse, I won't be surprised at all when you and your fellow vice officers with guns and body armour come breaking down the door. But I will be surprised, though, and more than a little offput when the next time I'm standing in line at the bank (does anyone do that anymore?) a cadre of armed and armored men come storming in with AR's and sawed-off 870's making a 'show of force'. Isnt that what bank robbers do? Make a display of force so that no one decides to be Charles Bronson? In fact, in the event that such should happen, I'll probably get shot to death for having drawn out on a cop when I didn't know he was a cop and we both mistook each other for a bad guy. One of us will have the worst day of our life and the other will get a free ride in an ambulance headed for the ER then the ME's office.. Then, the S really will hit the F when the police department and any number of other entities have to explain to the public how their "show of force" turned into the gunfight at OK Corral in the middle of Manhattan rush hour. Heaven help the cop on one of those Herc teams who, out of self defense, ends up having to shoot an armed civilian who thought he saw something going down and decided it was his turn to do something about it. What am I supposed to do? Yell 'flash' and hope he yells back 'thunder' so that I know not to start shooting? This isn't WWII and I'm not Cpt. Winters. I am, however, an American with the RKBA and I exercise it with enough .45acp and marksmanship to make anyone's otherwise good day turn out really, really badly. Fortunately, I'm not a psycho. But someone out there is and who knows when he's going to decide he thinks it's a good idea for he and his psycho, paramilitary buddies to emmulate the Herc Team and try to pull off some crazy caper? Demostrate to me how it can't happen and you'll convince me of your case. Otherwise and untill then, I'll have to shake your hand from my side of the fence.

It's the policy and those that formulate it with whom I have the real problem. They must think they can do whatever they want when and wherever they want and assume that the public will go along with it as long as it's under the guise of 'anti-terrorism'.

With all respect, this idea of 'show of force' just has bad news written all over it no matter which way one spins it.

As for politics, maybe it is a cop-out to say that since I don't come from American Royalty, or since A, B, C and D, I can't run for office. But do you think "Hillary Rodham" would be running for President right now? How do you think I (or anyone else here) would have stacked up against Micheal Bloomberg in the NYC Governor's race? Maybe I could have beaten Ann Richards for the Tx Governor's seat or George W. Bush? I guess that's why Massachusetts has been represented by so many different families not named Kennedy for the past 30+ years. Are you really so jacked up on kool-aid that you think any common pleb can get into office? You must think we live in a democracy or something...

And you never did say what, if not this, behavior on the part of law enforcement should constitute that of 'shock troops' or 'stormtroopers'.

ps. I didn't catch the first 999 times you'd conceded the point. my apologies but I had a point to make even if it had been conceded.

pps. I hope you don't take my tone as being offended by you personally and I hope that I don't offend you on a personal level. I'm simply attempting socratic debate. yes, I am asserting that, on the mean, one does have to be rich, if not noble, to be seriously considered as a political candidate or be backed by those that are. And it doesn't hurt to be a veteran, either. Obviously, there are execptions to that rule as there are exceptions to any other rule.

[K9 PO]

Quote:

And regardless of what the actuall purpose is or was for the show of force in this case, the effect on the public is a disturbing one that has spawned a debate here that has raged for the last several days..

Disturbing effect is a matter of opinion. I can find people in NY who are not part of this forum and would disagree with you.

Quote:

But I will be surprised, though, and more than a little offput when the next time I'm standing in line at the bank (does anyone do that anymore?) a cadre of armed and armored men come storming in with AR's and sawed-off 870's making a 'show of force'. Isnt that what bank robbers do?

No, bank robbers rob banks for money.

Quote:

I'll probably get shot to death for having drawn out on a cop when I didn't know he was a cop and we both mistook each other for a bad guy. One of us will have the worst day of our life and the other will get a free ride in an ambulance headed for the ER then the ME's office.. Then, the S really will hit the F when the police department and any number of other entities have to explain to the public how their "show of force" turned into the gunfight at OK Corral in the middle of Manhattan rush hour.

If you draw down on a heavily armed armored clad individual with a handgun, that's not tactically sound. OK Corral in the middle of Manhattan rush hour between a legally armed civilian and Police....Have you lived in NYC? It's a bit far fetched but not impossible.

Quote:

Fortunately, I'm not a psycho. But someone out there is and who knows when he's going to decide he thinks it's a good idea for he and his psycho, paramilitary buddies to emmulate the Herc Team and try to pull off some crazy caper? Demostrate to me how it can't happen and you'll convince me of your case. Otherwise and untill then, I'll have to shake your hand from my side of the fence.

As I posted numerous times...if someone wanted to do it they will. It can happen but I am more then willing to offer you a handshake for an intelligent debate.

Quote:



It's the policy and those that formulate it with whom I have the real problem. They must think they can do whatever they want when and wherever they want and assume that the public will go along with it as long as it's under the guise of 'anti-terrorism'.

With all respect, this idea of 'show of force' just has bad news written all over it no matter which way one spins it.

Agreed, sir.

Quote:

Are you really so jacked up on kool-aid that you think any common pleb can get into office? You must think we live in a democracy or something...

No, we live in a Republic and if common plebs can't get into office...I gotta examine Charles Rangels credentials...Eric Adams...and a host of others without blue blood running through their veins.

Quote:

And you never did say what, if not this, behavior on the part of law enforcement should constitute that of 'shock troops' or 'stormtroopers'.

I'd call it aggressive behavior.

Sir, I do not take offense on any level. Thanks again for the intelligent debate. Maybe I can buy you a beer if you decide to make it to NYC. Offer stands for anyone here!

My apologies if I come off sounding gruff. 12 hour shifts for all of December and typing on a Treo sucks.

[geophysicishooter]

Matter of opinion be damned!

It's been said before and it bears iteration:

He who would sacrifice freedom for the sake of security deserves neither. I'm no less than certain that you'd find no small number of people that would disagree with me.. Most of those folks probably grew up in the nanny-state and think the world owes them a living. People that would fully delegate their security to the state and surrender their right and ability to defend themselves are a people ripe for conquest. :banghead:

re:bank robbers. I meant before they do the actual robbing. "down on the floor" "Nobody move" "Go on about your business. ma'am. There's nothing to see here" "This is just a training exercise". And you may say that if the guy's going to do it, he's going to do it but why set the precedent? Why demostrate to the world that the people of NY will politely step aside and let men with tactical gear and military style weapons just walk into and take over a building??

Whether or not its tactically sound has no bearing on someone deciding he's Dirty Harry. Though I will take your advice about drawing down on kevlar clad, assault rifle toting mf'ers regardless of what side of the law I percieve they're on..

Though, I must say this.. I can't decide which is scarier: the fact that a swat team can just show up at any given time on the streets of NY just for the purpose of making a display of force or that so few citizens in the City of New York are legally armed that guys in tac-gear shouldn't fear the armed public..

I had a cop tell me point blank that he thought it inconceivable that as many people walk around unarmed as do. carjackings, muggings, rape, burglary, robbery, ya neva know.

Republic or not, someone needs to check Charlie Rangel's credentials anyways. :D

My point is that despite all the window dressing, might still makes right and might these days is expressed more in dollars and cents than with guns and ammo. Just getting one's name on the ballot requires an enormous output of resources to mobilize people, buy ad space-time, print posters, make those little pins everyone loves so much, etc, etc. Sure, anyone can serve on the school board without spending too much money but everyone knows politics=money. So unless you have it yourself or someone that does is willing to back you, it's a practical impossibility to run for office and one that precious few are able to overcome. besides, I'm far too honest a guy and have too much guilt to become a politician.

Handshake accepted.

Dude, you wrote all that from a Treo?? r.e.s.p.e.c.t.

as for how Rudy Giulliani has gotten as far as he has in politics.. I really can't say because 'it' really doesn'y exist.. :scrutiny:

[K9 PO]

I had a cop tell me point blank that he thought it inconceivable that as many people walk around unarmed as do. carjackings, muggings, rape, burglary, robbery, ya neva know.

Republic or not, someone needs to check Charlie Rangel's credentials anyways.

Agreed!



My point is that despite all the window dressing, might still makes right and might these days is expressed more in dollars and cents than with guns and ammo. Just getting one's name on the ballot requires an enormous output of resources to mobilize people, buy ad time, print posters, make those little pins everyone loves so much, etc, etc. Sure, anyone can serve on the school board without spending too much money but everyone knows politics=money. So unless you have it yourself or someone that does is willing to back you, it's a practical impossibility to run for office and one that precious few are able to overcome. besides, I'm far too honest a guy and have too much guilt to become a politician.

I don't disagree with you. All politicians are dirty to some degree and the ones that are honest could NEVER win an election ie. Nader, Gravel.

Finally off the Treo and typing from a regular PC :cuss:

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

well let me say for the record,

I think as a whole, the men and women we have in uniform, both overseas, and in our nations police units, are the finest we have. Every time I hear of a soldier going down, or a trooper KIA on America's streets, I say a prayer for their family and for our country who lost one of it's best. I hate thugs, gansters, drug dealers and the like. Hats off to those who serve our country and communities with loyalty, transparency, and vigor. Just wanted to make that clear in this discussion, no questions there.

st

[geophysicishooter]

Maybe I can buy you a beer if you decide to make it to NYC. Offer stands for anyone here!

Make it a whiskey and you're on! :evil:

[K9 PO]

Whiskey it is....just gotta find a old fashioned bar instead of all these "wine" bars!

[Master Blaster]

The biger problem I see with the Jump out squads, ESU units, SWAT team and what have you is twofold:

1. Mission creep, when you spend all of that money on equipment and training for a SOU (special ops Unit), you have to show that it is getting results. So if it only deploys once a year when there is a real event, its hard to justify its existance. If you have one of these units you also have to keep the troops sharp. That means using the unit to do more mundane police tasks. The military is trainied and designed to Kill People and break stuff, when the police adopt a military model, they are going to Kill people and Break stuff as well, since that is the purpose of military tactics.

2. The police are staffed and designed to work within our constitutional republic system, that means they rule with the consent of the governed. What does that mean? Well it means that there are never enough police to prevent crime. The police rely on the public to come forward and act as their eyes and ears, otherwise they can't do their job of catching criminals and maintaining a safe society where the weak are protected as well as the strong. Using these type of tactics in a high crime high poverty area, ensures that crime, violent crime escalates, why? because the public now sees the police as their enemy rather than their friend. That precipitates an even more draconian police response and requires more heavily armed police officers.

Eventually you will have a Mogudishu like environment in some areas, where people view the police as the enemy, rather than as protectors, police have to use military tactics to survive, and surveilence is the only way to deter crime.

K9PO what do you think of those mobile observation towers that have been deployed recently in some high crime areas in NYC, are they part of the trend??

[K9 PO]

Quote:

K9PO what do you think of those mobile observation towers that have been deployed recently in some high crime areas in NYC, are they part of the trend??

I think it's a waste of money and manpower. I forget how much one of those units go for, but I do know that you need 2 men to operate the darn thing. One to be in the tower and one to guard the base so it doesn't get tampered with. Fixed posts like that ultimately end up being the cops problem if anything happens to the machine, even if the ground opens up and swallows it or high winds knock it down or if God almighty smites it. It's a passing trend, much like the Segway scooters the Police Department have recently purchased. No practical solution for a well trained and motivated beat cop.

Quote:

The police rely on the public to come forward and act as their eyes and ears, otherwise they can't do their job of catching criminals and maintaining a safe society where the weak are protected as well as the strong.

Unfortunately, politics in earlier years used the police as a tool to enforce unjust laws against certain ethnic groups and that has affected police to this day. Minority communities in America view the police with much distrust and even though statistics say the majority of crimes are committed by certan ethnicities, our troubled past comes back to haunt us. See the no snitching campaign and numerous rap songs condemning the police. This hinders us from doing our jobs and further drives a wedge between police and the communities we serve.

Quote:

Eventually you will have a Mogudishu like environment in some areas, where people view the police as the enemy, rather than as protectors, police have to use military tactics to survive, and surveilence is the only way to deter crime.

Unfortunately, in a majority of neighborhoods nationwide where there is a high poverty and crime rate, police are the enemy and not the drug dealers, rapists, and career criminals who hide among the working people. Again, a majority working people are in fear of retribution and adopt a policy of see, hear, speak no evil forcing us to take aggressive actions at times. If I can coax a criminal to surrender peacefully, make him/her from ever committing a crime ever again and give me all his drugs and contraband to take into evidence all the time, I would. Reality is some will rather kill you then spend time in jail.

[fearless leader]

Is it just me? I have noticed over the years, that police went from "town constables" and "peace officers" and "lawmen" to law "enFORCEment".

When the old time police had to deal with the likes of Bonnie and Clyde, and John Dillinger, they wore uniforms and carried heavier hardware. They LOOKED like police.

Modern Law enFORCEment officers when on special duty dress in:
Black Boots
Black Uniforms
Black Helmets (that are of a German pattern)
German SMG's (usually)
Heavily laden with tacticool gizmos
Strike like lightning (as in Blitzkrieg)
Does this sound like another group in history?

Perhaps I'm out of line, but I always will wonder what would have happened if the Texas Rangers would have gone to Mt. Carmel at Waco, TX, and knocked on the door, and said, "David Koresh? We would like to talk to you."
You know, like police used to do before they became storm troopers.
I understand that there are communities that this seems to be needed, but it is becoming VERY common.

How do officers like this intend to deter men that are willing to die?

[K9 PO]

Quote:

Is it just me? I have noticed over the years, that police went from "town constables" and "peace officers" and "lawmen" to law "enFORCEment".

Why the emphasis on the word FORCE? Do cops not enforce code and laws?

Quote:

When the old time police had to deal with the likes of Bonnie and Clyde, and John Dillinger, they wore uniforms and carried heavier hardware. They LOOKED like police.

And back in those days men looked like men and women looked like women. Now you can hardly tell. Times change and people evolve.

Quote:

Perhaps I'm out of line, but I always will wonder what would have happened if the Texas Rangers would have gone to Mt. Carmel at Waco, TX, and knocked on the door, and said, "David Koresh? We would like to talk to you."

IIRC, The case was investigated by the ATF and based on the evidence they had at the time, they reasonably believed there was a large cache of illegal firearms in the compound. Karesh was a pedophile and some of the girls as young as 6 according to wikipedia were sexually abused and demonstrated intimate knowledge of weaponary. These don't appear to be people you can just talk to. By your argument, what if the President walks into Iraq tommorow, speak to the leader of the insurgents and say I would like to talk to you. Sometimes things are not so transparent and black and white.

Quote:

You know, like police used to do before they became storm troopers.

Like when the FBI ambushed John Dillinger and shot him to death? Or how about the cops on the National Law Enforcement Memorial Wall in Washington who were killed in the line of duty, some doing nothing more than talking with suspects?

IF CRIMINALS OR SUSPECTS DID NOT BEHAVE VIOLENTLY WE WOULD NOT NEED GUNS OR BEHAVE AGGRESSIVELY.

Yet men and women in this line of work talk to people every day without resorting to this "storm trooper" action.

Quote:

I understand that there are communities that this seems to be needed, but it is becoming VERY common.

Which communities NEED to have "storm troopers" police their community?

Quote:

How do officers like this intend to deter men that are willing to die?

They don't as covered in my NUMEROUS posts. It's a dog and pony show.

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

some of the girls as young as 6 . . . demonstrated intimate knowledge of weaponary.

well we know it wasn't the public education system :evil:

sounds like a cool kid (see THIS POST (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=321558))

:D

st

[fearless leader]

I was born in the Bronx N.Y. and lived there till I was a teen. Later, I moved out to Long Island, first Nassau County and now I'm in Suffolk. I'm proud as hell to be from NY and it saddens (often times, ANGERS) me to see NY take such a verbal beating when I go on various message boards. Unfortunately, the beatings have become more and more deserved.

New York is an amazing City, especially this time of year. You'll be hard pressed to find a better place on the planet to visit during Christmas time. It's just a shame that the laws and politics are such that it turns people off from visiting.

I used to live in Brooklyn on military duty for a year or so. I agree. I enjoyed NY. Some of the best resturants in the world, plays every night, lots of social activities no matter what your schedule (and mine was demanding). The only thing that bothered me was no right to have a gun.

I don't see where people are beating up NY as much as they are the direction the authorities are taking IN New York (and elsewhere).

[fearless leader]

Taurusowner - in regard to the overt patrols you were speaking...

Have you ever seen a video game called "Mercenaries"? It will probably be like that. Hummers with M-2 .50 BMGs in the turrets.

We had a chance to squelch facism in it's roots in America by rejecting county/city codes. Do you remember when it was nobodys business how many cars you had in your yard? How many guns you owned? When you didn't have to ask der Fuhrer's permission to build a shed? When a building for your purposes only had to meet your design? In my county, they want to make sure your grass is no more than 4 inches. I am still trying to figure out why I need a permit (which means I have to ask "permission" from the county Ober Fuhrer, to put a drive way on MY land. They level heavy fines now, but I'm sure they will take you and your family out and shoot you after they ban the guns.
I assert that they are deliberately allowing illegal aliens into America to necessitate the "Your papers please" mentality.
The majority of Germans never saw it coming either.

[The Gunman]

K9 PO
And it's all about politics..you make it seem that we average citizens are powerless against this government and forget we partake in the democratic process and VOTE these guys in or out of office.


You are absolutely correct. We have and must use our right to vote. What I am saying, once in power of office, they first concern themselves with how to stay in power. This is how the corruption and "How can I get more tax dollars?" gets started. I recieved a flyer in the mail a few days ago from an incumbet running for re-election, "informing" me of all they have accomplished and why I should vote for them. At the bottom was a note that the flyer was payed for with OUR tax dollars.

Do you think these politicians want to cut the flow of tax dollars that help them get re-elected?-I don't.

In our county, the county board seems to operate on how much state and federal tax money they can get. They use the emergency management office to gain state and federal monies by funding the office at the bare minimum to meet state and federal requirements. When the state and federal governments send money, they put it into the county general fund and appropriate only what absolutely has to be used for emergency management. They use the remainder for other projects throughout the county.

Is it no wonder that some people operate their lives on the basis of what can I do to be eligible for more government money!

OK, rant over.
Back to the guys in black. There is a time and place to employ these tools, and I feel they are necessary at times. I feel that many mayors and police chiefs use them as the first resort, when in truth they should be the last resort.

I think this photo is the result of the mayor showing off the shiny new toy he bought with our tax dollars.

K9 PO-It has just occured to me that I haven't thanked you for your service to the public. I have served in the military and public service, I know it can be a thankless job.

[K9 PO]

This comparison between America and Nazi Germany as evident by some posters here has some validity but I am going to draw some distinctions.

Nazi Germany under Adolf Hitler began a systemic alienation of anyone who did not have blue eyes or blond hair and have this purported "Aryan" blood.

America practically opened up its borders and the problem with illegals is already overwhelming. Do you think we are spending BILLIONS of dollars on healthcare and education for illegals just so somewhere down the road we're going to magically close the borders (something we have NOT been able to do) and start demanding papers from citizens? That does not make a whole lot of sense. With American politics the way it is now...who will be the Furher as you put it?

The people rallied under Adolf Hitler because following Germany's defeat in WWI, no one helped the people of that country rebuild and it was an impoverished nation. Hitler came and promised the people great things and they all bellied up to him. Americans to a certain extent has a impoverished class but not enough that they would come together and convince the rest of the nation that ONE dictator (which is essentially the only way a police state can exist, Old Soviet Union, Panama,etc.) can take care of everything. Before you jump down my throat and tossing 1984 around, SHOW ME a nation that exists today that mimics and Orwellian society.

And once again, have there been kidnappings and killings of political rivals? What about police gunning down protestors in cold blood? The WTO Summit in Seattle didn't see the police spraying machine gun fire at protestors. Students protest everyday without being shot. Demonstrators use their 1st Amendment rights to march on Washington DC. The rights of the press to report on all action of our government has not been infringed. Journalists have not been executed by our police or armed foces for writing negative articles about our President or expose's about Larry Craig.

The next time you go comparing my America to some fascist state, I'd advise you to move elsewhere. Speak out against the policies of the government in a public forum in China and see where that gets you.

[K9 PO]

Gunman,

And thank you for keeping our country safe with your service, sir.

[fearless leader]

Quote:The next time you go comparing my America to some fascist state, I'd advise you to move elsewhere. Speak out against the policies of the government in a public forum in China and see where that gets you.

I think it would be easier to note the trend and preserve our constitutional republic, by steering it back in the road. Do you leave your vehicle when it is going off course, or do you steer it?

[K9 PO]

Quote:

I think it would be easier to note the trend and preserve our constitutional republic, by steering it back in the road. Do you leave your vehicle when it is going off course, or do you steer it?

Note the trend, write your representatives, run for election. Steer the vehicle back on the path that you believe in. Point is all of our beliefs are subjective and there will be someone who disagrees. I can accept compromise and I will stand firm for my beliefs as I trust you will do the same.

My comment was directed at the comparison between Germany under Nazi rule and America in it's current state. I already said I can see some similarity and basis for the comparison. What I don't agree with is the comparison of these cops as stormtroopers or nazi SS. If you want to call them intimidating, fine. But to compare police officers who took an oath of office to defend the constitution against enemies foreign and domestic to SS troopers who murdered, raped, and tortured people deemed by Hitler to be the enemy is a slap in the face to every cop who has ever died in the uniform.

You and yesit'sloaded keep referring back to the old age of policing. Refer back to post #108 for my response.

You spoke of Dillinger and I responded the cops ambushed him as he was coming out of a theather and shot him to death. Refer back to your earlier post and my response.

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

the question is how does this article, or event, relate to the right to bear arms. The question is not about philosophy itself.

SHOW ME a nation that exists today that mimics and Orwellian society

Sure! How many would you like?

I suppose China would be too far away even though they peruse internet data to find political dissidents, make secret arrests, control population through sterilization, harvest organs from political prisoners and sell them to members of their own society as well as the Japanese without permission (from the original organ owners). They propose that they will have over 100 observation satellites in the sky by 2020 and already have full control over what search engines like Yahoo and Google return thereby controlling access to information deemed 'inappropriate' by the State.

Let's go closer, like say....America!
Non-police personnel used to mine for information during unrelated home entries such as 'guns, ammo...' and report such activity to the Department of Homeland Security (which could be in its own listing). source (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/11/24/america/NA-GEN-US-Firefighters-Terrorists.php?page=1)

The repeal of former limits on emergency declarations by the President which balanced the three traditional branches of Republican government. source (http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/martial_law_made_easy.html)

While over 20% of the nations school children are being put on mind and behavior altering drugs, "experts" believe they are still "undermedicated" source (http://www.medicineonline.com/news/12/5592/Many-kids-with-ADHD-not-getting-required-meds.html)

-noteworthy since many of these medications have as a by product dimming a students critical analysis of authority and questioning as well as 'uncontrollable behavior'.

Domestic Police employing covert 'eyes in the sky' with testing done out of the public eye using drone aircraft and sophisticated surveillance technology.
source (http://www.click2houston.com/investigates/14659066/detail.html)

Well documented yet media-blackout of aggressive political change in the North American systems of government, effectively undermining U.S. interest as an individual entity (with 'unaliable rights' such as RKBA) source (http://infowars.com/articles/nwo/nau_dear_deluded_mass_media_nau_exists.htm)

The labelling of domestic groups such as gun owners, activists, constitutionalists, Christians, immigrants, muslims, right wing/survivalists, leftist/anarchists, homeschoolers, lone individuals, rebels, etc. as potential terrorists thereby forfeiting their right to trial by jury and any other rights granted under the Constitution and subsequent amendments. source (http://www.keepandbeararms.com/newsarchives/XcNewsPlus.asp?cmd=view&articleid=2126) , source II (http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/04/homeschool-terrorism.htm), source III (http://www.greatdreams.com/political/secret_fema_plan.htm)

the marketing of such populace/police control technologies as the drone hover craft built by Taser that can patrol and shock targets with 50,000 volts source (http://infowars.net/articles/november2007/261107Taser_Saucer.htm)


the presence of a firearm in media presentation of criminal activity as evidence that said firearm was part of criminal activity or would soon lead to mayhem and murder as part of a program to eliminate said firearms source (http://www.vpc.org/snipercrime.htm)

the collusion of open information access systems with corporations and political organizations who are actively seeking to alter the American political landscape source (http://www.examiner.com/a-983100~Google_bans_anti_MoveOn_org_ads.html)

the observation of YOU reading available materials at public places in an effort to establish thought patterns or interests that may be threatening to the State source (http://www.abc15.com/content/news/webxtra/story.aspx?content_id=272a71b7-1758-4fe9-a112-97a141760e76)

I could go on and on but class is about to start. I used a variety of news outlets and sources from both conservative and liberal sides to show the inherent lack of political bias of the issue. Do I think we are an Orwellian society.....nope. I love my country it's the best in the world. Period.

Do I watch and observe and note changes.......yes.

Could those changes without check lead to something worse in the future, especially after a change in power structure...possibly.

The RKBA is the canary in the coal mine - the one thing that stands as a stalwart against such possibilities, and that, we all have in common here.

Sincerely

ST

[geophysicishooter]

Hey K9,

I really do like your fire and pride for America. It's admirable and I think it's the common thread around here. And you're right. America isn't a fascist police state. That's is so because generations of Americans have stood up and called BS when they recognised behaviors on the part of "policy makers" that cross the line. When they try to control how we think and act with civil rights manipulating legislation, access to firearms, ammunition, tazer happy leo's and the like, it makes people nervous that the balance of power has shifted to the oligarchy, the ruling elites.. the Bush's and the Kennedy's, the Pelosi and the leftist media elites and away from the people. Basically we fear the negation of the opening lines of the Declaration. We The People. We're who own this land. We're who get to say how things are. And Try as we might to keep the right people in and the wrong people out of office that make the day to day decisions, there are enough sheep out there who latch onto the promise that can never be fulfilled and bring us legislators who tear at the soft underbelly of our fragile republic. And they do it in the name of progressivism, white-liberal guilt, and equal rights. Remeber that Rome was a republic before the dark times, before The Empire.

That's what everyone fears.

Democrats in Congress have already hinted at legislation that would restrict the ability of retailers to sell ammunition without which that $1200 Kimber becomes a $1200 paperweight. Well now you can't get ammo, so why do you need a gun? Why don't I just take that.. thanks. Oh and the line for bread starts around the corner. Nevermind our fine officers supervising. They're just making sure everything goes smoothly.

We're not just kooks who own guns. We're descendants of a noble tradition of being American, being free, of booting out the British Crown and establishing a nation on ideals that date back to Charlemagne, to Plato and Aristotle, to the founding of western civilization, to ancient Greece. That men are free, that a government only has the legitimacy that the people grant it, a government of, for and by the people. A nation that defied the Eurpean Kingdoms who had turned on those ideals.

I think what disturbs people about this is that we all realize that this all can come crashing down around our ears in an instant.. This bit about 'you can't have a gun but we can' only flies when peoples' fear of their neighbor outwieghs their fear of their freedom being taken away..

You mention China and other places where speaking out gets you taken away. All that is true and it's a travesty that people their live under such represive regimes. But it should serve to remind us how precious freedom is and that it's preservation is paramount above all other things. But you knew that already.

[FLORIDA KEVIN]

it seems to me that the citizens got terrorized and the terroists are probably laughing at them ! it would be different if they showed up in force at a terrorist "Cell" location ?! But showing force randomly is stupid ! What are they going to do when terrorists start targeting black suburbans in NYC?
Kevin :banghead:

[doorman]

Next step:
Everyone required to carry proper identification papers for random ID checks.

Next step:
Let's have christians were sewn on crosses, jews sewn on star of david, and muslims sewn on crescent moon for quick class identification.

Next step:
Let's separate people so we know who would likely be the bad guy.

Oh, wait a minute. History tells me that this has already been attempted and failed.

Here we go again. This time I think I will stay armed.

[K9 PO]

Sam,

Ya got me there. I got a bit riled up and should've recognized China as I am of Chinese American descent. Absolutely the media leans to the left and right and it's difficult to see where the truth lies.

I do believe the RKBA is an essential right for citizens of this country and the fact that wife or any other person with a spotless record and is of legal age can not carry ANY firearm in the city of New York legally while predators armed with better weapons than myself roam the streets is insane. Believe me, I love NY and I enjoy working here. The minute my finances are in order, the wife and I will be headed to some place where our RKBA will not be infringed upon. There's that Garand I always wanted...

Quote:

What are they going to do when terrorists start targeting black suburbans in NYC?

I don't understand what you mean what they are going to do?

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

My statements regarding the Chinese method in no way are a remark on the Chinese people who have the richest and longest history as an advanced civilization, arguably, on Earth. I minored in Asian Studies. If you want some sources on those statements (political control, internet access, monitoring, organ stuff, and so on. . . ) I can pull them up it will just take a little while. . . I still have classes going on.

st

[K9 PO]

Sam,

You're right regarding China and their various restrictions on the rights of the people there (child birth limits, population control). I read about the google restrictions and and I saw Tiannamen Square unfold on TV. I know you are not speaking about the Chinese people as a whole and only about the way the government conducts it's business.

[v35]

Nazi Germany under Adolf Hitler began a systemic alienation of anyone who did not have blue eyes or blond hair and have this purported "Aryan" blood.
As an aside, this practice was not unique to Germany. The practice of eugenics was, at the time, considered well-established scientific fact that was accepted by medical professionals, academicians, and government policy makers worldwide, but especially right here in the US for much of the 20th century. We are talking about the recent past. No one dared object to such obviously well-qualified researchers and community leaders. It was fact. If you didn't accept it, you were labeled a kook.

A lot of people think guns cause crime. A lot of them are in government (DC's Mayor Fenty and DA Linda Singer for example). To them it's a fact and if you don't believe it you're a kook. As an exercise, you can probably think of any number of indisputable "scientific facts" yourself that are accepted by everyone that guide government and social policy today. Are they all beneficial to society? Will these accepted "scientific facts" turn out to be pure bunk someday? You decide.

Thousands of Americans were forcibly sterilized during the first half of the 1900s. It was completely accepted that dilution of the gene pool by "imbeciles" would bring social destruction. It was fact. Nazi government administrators even cited US acceptance of such practices as state-mandated sterilization when called upon to defend themselves during their war crime trials in Nuremberg.

Of course we know better now. Dilution of the gene pool was an imagined enemy. It didn't exist. What fools they were to believe that nonsense! Such knowledge of history causes wise men to question conventional wisdom. This is the reason these images of 21st century Manhattan are so frightening to me and others on this forum.

You are justified in drawing attention to the fact the US is a far cry from Germany in the 1930s. Yes, we know better now. However, human beings are made of the same stuff now as they were then. We might like to think we're more enlightened, more educated, more civilized, but as human beings, we're just as fallible, and just as prone to the human fears and limitations that led 1930s Germany down the path to its own destruction.

Nothing allies and strengthens a collectivist society more than identification of a common enemy. Give the enemy a name, then proceed to oppress it. In Germany, it was "non-Aryan" which included Jews, gypsies, and anyone else who didn't fit whatever social architecture the Nazis wished to construct. Am I suggesting that the enemy today is "terrorist"? Am I saying terrorism is nothing more than an imagined threat? No! But I question whether the perceived threat justifies the creation of paramilitary forces to combat the real threat. I joke about it but I don't think we are living an Orwellian nightmare. We are not a fascist state. However, I think we can be forgiven for remaining vigilant to the creation of real threats to everything Americans hold dear to combat an imagined enemy for the sake of the common good. The path to fascism is well-paved and available to anyone who allows themselves to be led.

I think we are completely justified when calling foul when acceptance of such paramilitary-appearing displays seem out of kilter with our values. The risk of complacency is to invite an Orwellian nightmare, or worse.

[Caimlas]

So definitive and concise. Once again, your opinion. I haven't seen any of these terroristic cops execute someone like the Nazis you compared them to.

The Nazis didn't start off executing Jews and dissenters right out of the starting gate, you know. Most of them weren't executing people, either, just moving them from one location to another, serving in the German Army, and doing a lot of menial tasks like moving equipment around. Just normal guys. But those normal guys overlooked and simply ignored a lot (ok, all) of the travesties that were being perpetrated around them; they were the ones vested with (at least some) authority, and they either abused it or allowed that abuse to continue - all in the name of following orders, all the way up to the top. I'm sorry, but the "just following orders" and "really just good guys caught at the wrong place at the wrong time" arguments haven't held much weight, at least since Nuremberg.

These guys might be "reactive", but if so, it's only in the same way that the German SS was "protective". If you want a prelude to what is to come, look at the history of the German SS from 1930 to 1936- 6 short years! - and see how it grew and changed at the behest of those in control, keeping in mind the likely societal change that accompanied moves like the assumption of control of the Gestapo.

Frankly, I don't care if these "cops" are good guys, trained to perform rescue, yadda yadda. They may not be doing direct harm, and may be doing good - but they are undoubtedly contributing to the populace's growing acceptance of pervasive police forces. Think of that what you will, but for my money, I'm betting nothing good comes of it. Nothing good at all.

[Caimlas]

You're right regarding China and their various restrictions on the rights of the people there (child birth limits, population control). I read about the google restrictions and and I saw Tiannamen Square unfold on TV. I know you are not speaking about the Chinese people as a whole and only about the way the government conducts it's business.

He may not have been, but I will. The little I know about it I've heard from my brother, who has been living there for the last year. When he went over there, he was a wishy-washy leftist. Now, he's terrified of such stuff, and while he's not fond of Bush, he's come around. What happened? First, he read 1984; second, he saw how people behave in China* and was (is) terrified by it; and third, he sees (like one might see a ship sinking through a telescope) the same thing becoming all the more common here in the United States.

* Case in point: even those who know, intellectually, that Tiannamen occurred, they will not acknowledge it having happened emotionally, and simply do not care, or are afraid to care. The majority of people my brother has confronted about it happening (yes, he's got balls on him and no, very little common sense), most will flat out deny it ever having happened, and will deny the very possibility. They will claim it was a complex fabrication by the West, or some other absurdity - or simply not even offer an explanation, just say it didn't happen.

That sounds pretty much textbook "1984".

[Caimlas]

Oh yeah, one final note: the issue is not whether or not we're a fascist state - as if we could or should say "not fascist? no worries" - but whether or not we are living in a free country. Are we living in a fascist country? No, don't be silly. Is it a possibility within our lifetimes, given the trend of decreased liberties and increased governmental exercise of force? Yes, most certainly.

[Caimlas]

But showing force randomly is stupid !

Well, in theory, random, or at least a calculated and variant, dispersal is the most effective way to spread something far and wide.

[The Gunman]

Hitler came and promised the people great things and they all bellied up to him. Americans to a certain extent has a impoverished class but not enough that they would come together and convince the rest of the nation that ONE dictator (which is essentially the only way a police state can exist, Old Soviet Union, Panama,etc.) can take care of everything.-K9 PO

And once again, have there been kidnappings and killings of political rivals? What about police gunning down protesters in cold blood? The WTO Summit in Seattle didn't see the police spraying machine gun fire at protesters. Students protest everyday without being shot. Demonstrators use their 1st Amendment rights to march on Washington DC. The rights of the press to report on all action of our government has not been infringed. Journalists have not been executed by our police or armed foces for writing negative articles about our President or expose's about Larry Craig.-K9 PO

No, not literal killing of political rivals, but social and political killings. Protesters are labeled as extremists. We as gun owners are targets of social and political assassination. The press and anti-gunners are working on programming the public. They are programming people to feel threatened by our owning a firearm. This is why terms like "assault weapon", "large capacity ammunition feeding device", and "military style weapon" are used by the anti-gunners. We are being pushed into silence by fear of being shunned as a gun owner, being known as an extremist for saying what you think is right. Why do you think we get called gun nuts?

Laws are constantly being made that make a simple oversight by a gun owner turn into a felony conviction. Their seems to be no middle ground for the law, you are either a good citizen who abides every law or a felon. Politicians are either sparkling clean or absolutely corrupt, no room is given for a person who makes a poor decision or makes a mistake. They are assumed guilty as hell because we "caught them", and if we caught them doing this what have they done that we didn't catch?

We must vote and reform our process toward more freedom, not "you must be guilty if you question my athority".

"And when someone you've elected is seduced by the power of the office and betrays you, muster the collective will to banish them from public life.

Because unless you do these things, freedom as we have known it cannot endure."-NRA President Charlton Heston - Brandeis University, Waltham, MA
March 28, 2000

[sig226]

Add one more to the tin foil hat crowd, although it is correctly known as an Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanie (http://www.zapatopi.net/afdb/).

Sadly, they have screwed up New York city so badly that these are the only kind of tactics that will work there. Their answer to 1,000 murders a year was to revoke carry permits. Like those people were the problem.

[loud-mouth shnook]

...that they can spare the men and resources for a dog and pony act like THIS?

Looks like there are some priority issues here, folks.

I gotta doff my own Reynoldswrap Stetson to Alexander Solzhenitsyn(sp?) regarding this one.

In his once-outlawed book, "The Gulag Archipeligo", he wrote that the Soviet government's paranoia about the citizenry had reached such a degree during WWII that individual soldiers were being pulled off the line IN THE MIDDLE OF BATTLES with the Nazis and shipped off to Siberia for being suspected as dissentors.(sp? once again)

How's that for realistic priorities?

A previous poster mentioned the prospect of parades. That thought entered my tin-covered mind as well, bringing up memories of newspaper pictures of the russians parading mobile missiles and such. Were those parades to demontrate to the people, "Look how safe you are" or was it to remind them that they're under a huge thumb and better just keep on swilling the Kool-Ade like a good little worker bee?

Now factor in NYC's mayor Bloomberg's illegal ATF forays into other states.:what: These guys think they're above the law, it appears.
Can someone say, "control freaks"?

I don't like it, folks. Nope, just don't like it at all.
Not a sign of good things to come for NYC, I fear.

[K9 PO]

My response to Sam:

I know you are not speaking about the Chinese people as a whole and only about the way the government conducts it's business.

Caimlas' Quote:

He may not have been, but I will. The little I know about it I've heard from my brother, who has been living there for the last year.

Please clarify your statement. Are you speaking about all Chinese people?