[Blain]

Just curious what you guys have heard in regaurds to the different self defense rounds out there for the .40? I have heard very good things about the Remington Golden Sabers, and mixed things about the Federal Premium hydro shok (though supposedly the lower grained bullets like 135 are better). I am just curious what bullet types you use or have used for self defense and if you know about their preformances or stopping %s.

Why do the Federal Hydro shoks have a little raised dot of lead in the middle of the hollow point? This always confused me.

[kudu]

I use golden saber ammo in my glock 40 cal, it never had a problem with them and are accurate in my M 23.
The post in hydra shock ammo stays centered when the bullet mushrooms around it peeling back like a banana. Makes a nasty looking mushroom.

[12-34hom]

Why would anyone mess with 40S&W when 10mm is vastly superiour in every way possible????

HMMMM?

12-34hom.

[Blain]

But is 10mm superior to .45? Besides, 10mm can't hold as many rounds as .40mm, and their pistols are generally too big for concealment. .40S&W has proven itself to be a powerful round, on par with the .45 in terms of one shot stops. And since no handgun round is as powerful as a rifle (*cept maybe that insane new .50) it's nice to be able to have more shots for follow ups.

[Peter Gun]

I use the Golden Sabres (165gr) in my sig229. They are very accurate and expand very reliably into a very effective looking buzzsaw. They certainly chew up trees nicely. I was using 155gr silvertips, but I tried the remingtons when I read some reports that indicated the silvertips did not expand reliably w/ heavy clothing. The remingtons expanded reliably in all tests, and when I tried them myself I found them to be more accurate. HTH.

[MikeJ]

I also recommend the 165 grain Remington Golden Sabers. This is based on a general consensus of information that I have read and that they work well in my Glock 23 and Sig 229. Fortunately, I have never had to really try them out. Best, Mike

[Spackler]

The Winchester RA40T is widely acknowledged as the best performer. It's a LEO-only round and can be hard to find, however.

I carry the 180gr Speer Gold Dot round.

[4Truck]

When I used a .40 for my carry gun, I used the 165 grain Speer Gold Dots. I tried them out in some old phone books, and they seem to perform reliably, and were suprisingly accurate

[Preacherman]

Another vote for the Remington 165gr. Golden Saber JHP. I've seen post-mortem results on several shootings with this round (LE stuff), and the results have been uniformly excellent (well, not from the point of view of the perpetrator, but you know what I mean... :D ). Second choice is the 155gr. Federal Hydra-Shok, for the same reason. However, most of the mid-range .40 rounds (155gr. to 165gr.) seem to do pretty darn well "on the street", so if I had to, I wouldn't be unhappy to use other choices in this weight range.

[Blain]

what about the light grain self defense bullets like the 135 grain Federal hydroshok? The extra velocity make for some more gruesome wounds?

[Sean Smith]

But is 10mm superior to .45? Besides, 10mm can't hold as many rounds as .40mm, and their pistols are generally too big for concealment.

Based on published ballistics, yes, 10mm is superior to .45 ACP. There are factory 10mm loads with more energy at 100 yards than 230gr .45 ACP +P has at the muzzle. Objective fact, not opinion.

And 10mm guns hold EXACTLY as many rounds as .40 S&W guns of comparable size. Same diameter, you see. That's an objective fact, not an opinion.

And 10mm guns are the same size as .45 ACP guns, since the cartridge overall length is about the same by design. So unless you are talking about a Star Megastar, that's another objective fact to chew on.

Back to your regularly scheduled topic, already in progress. :D

[DigMe]

Currently I load 180 gr. Federal Hydra-Shok with a backup clip of 180 gr Winchester Ranger SXT. I'm thinking of going to something lighter like 165 though.

If you're interested I was goofing around with my new digital camera and took some pics showing the expansion on the two rounds above.

Here's the link:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32005

Not that it really helps much. :P

BTW, I've always considered "stopping %'s" to be pretty worthless.

brad cook

[Darrin]

Fed. Hydra-shok JHP here.

[coldshot03/04]

Every single defensive handgun that I own except one is loaded with Remington GS ammo. I also like the Winchester JHPs.:D

I guess you are all wondering why? All but one of my handguns are loaded with Rem G.S. Well my P32 doesnt like HP ammo. but it does like FMJs.:D

[only1asterisk]

The best round in what is in your gun when you need it!

The smartest choice for what to keep in your gun for that purpose is up for debate and always will be.
My choice for 40 S&W would be a full power 165 grain premium hollowpoint(Winchester Ranger, Golden Sabre, Gold Dot or Hydrashok). Be careful with Hydrashoks because there is also a low velocity load. My second choice is medium velocity 165's or full power 180's also premium JHP (same as above, plus PROload, Black Hills or CorBon). If none of those shoot well for you, there is nothing really wrong with the lighter bullets, I just have a healthy respect for murphy's law (as opposed to those that are afraid of it, they carry FMJ).


David

Don't be afraid of LEO only ammo, if you want to try some, just let me know!

[Blain]

Sure, I'll try some.

[stevelyn]

180 gr Gold Dots professionally and personally.

[Intune]

Wow, do I need to reconsider my Cor-Bon 135's? I chose them because I didn't think I would be needing to defeat auto glass & multiple layers of clothing. It was my understanding that they worked great on thin-skinned targets. My G-27 seems to like them. Any advice?

[Preacherman]

The Cor-Bon 135's are excellent, and I sometimes carry them. However, they do have a (quite deliberate) design limitation. Because of their very high velocity (for caliber), they expand brutally fast, and due to this and their light weight (reducing momentum) they slow down quite fast. They typically don't penetrate as deeply in flesh or gelatin as the heavier rounds.

This can be a problem if the BG is wearing heavy winter clothing, and/or is a very heavy-set type, as the bullet may not reach vital organs. It can also hinder penetration through windshields, cover, etc. On the other hand, it's a perfect approach for the "average" civilian shooter who wants to avoid over-penetration at all costs, and is much less likely than LEO's to have to shoot through cover, windshields, etc.

I carry the Cor-Bon 135gr. when I'm planning to visit a shopping mall, or somewhere where I'm likely to encounter large numbers of bystanders. I obviously don't want the moral and legal hassle of injuring an innocent person through over-penetration if I have to use my weapon in self-defence! On the other hand, my standard "general-purpose" load is the Remington Golden Saber 165gr. JHP. It has much superior penetration for heavy clothing/body fat/muscle mass/cover/etc., and still expands very effectively and has a very good "street" stopping record. Sometimes, if I'm going to move between general and crowded situations, I carry two spare mags, one of the Cor-Bon and one with the GS. Before I go into a mall, I'll switch carry ammo. When I come out, I'll switch back.

Works for me... YMMV.

[Lennyjoe]

I prefer to carry Speer Gold Dot 165 gr JHP in my Taurus PT 100.

Have shot alot of these rounds and have had no problems with feed, accuracy and second shot recovery.

[litework]

I use 155 grain Gold Dots in my Glock 23. I prefer the lighter bullets in the .40 (less than 165gr) and go heavier with my 10mm. The most important thing is finding a cartridge that performs well in your firearm.

[only1asterisk]

Intune,

If you are happy with your choice, you don't need to do anything. We can talk about ammo preference for the rest of our lives and never reach any agreement on anything. Not all LE rounds do so hot on glass or clothed jello-o, the do represent the makers best effort at a round to bring down determined felon. This should be AVAILABLE to all (and is!) as a choice. I have mine, based on my own cost/benefit of the situation. Sounds like you made yours. Train accordingly and remember, as ammo continues to evolve, you can change your mind.

As important as ammo is, it is no where near the top of my list.
The more important elements (in order of MY priorities) IMHO are:

The Mindset (to resist)

The Decision (to go armed)

The Training (to be prepared)

The Weapon

The Ammo (so the Weapon works)

The Practice (to be better)



David

[Intune]

Thanks Preacherman & 1*, I am on the right track then for what I envision to be my likely encounter with the Dark Side.

:cool:

[Jeff OTMG]

My choice is the RBCD Tactical:
66gr 2320 fps 790 fpe

[Kentucky Rifle]

.40 caliber RBCD's are in my Glock 27.
(Look at the energy.)

KR

[denfoote]

Why would anyone mess with 40S&W when 10mm is vastly superiour in every way possible????

1) Twenty dollars a box for "cheap" plinking ammo!! :eek:

2) Can't buy it at Wallyworld!!!

3) Yeah, you can order it on line, but by the time you pay for shipping, you have just shelled out full retail anyway!! :mad:


The pluses of the round.

1) You can buy two different Glocks that chamber it!! :cool:

2) You can get barrels that will convert said Glocks to fire .40 S&W!! :evil:

[Sean Smith]

Try using facts next time. :D

If that scary thing called the MAIL doesn't make you run and hide, you can get 10mm practice ammo for as little as $160/1,000. Even with shipping, that is cheaper than almost any .45 ACP practice fodder out there. You can get CCI Blazers on sale for a little bit more. Of course, if you are too dumb to shop for ammo, then you deserve to get soaked... I've seen $12 boxes of 9x19 and $18 boxes of .45 ACP, too, but I wasn't dumb enough to buy those, either.

:neener:

As for ballistics... fuhgeddaboutit. When you've got 180gr @ 1,320 ft/sec from a 4.6" barrel with factory ammo out of a .40 S&W, let me know. Exploding single-shots don't count. ;)

Back to the topic... and BTW I like 165gr Golden Sabers in .40 S&W.

[clubsoda22]

Aguila IQ. 95 gr aluminum alloy bullet at 1500fps at standard pressures. They don't load them +P because they were penetrating bulletproof vests consistantly, or, at least, that's the rumor. Anyway, If you hit a hard object the bullet collapses into a sharp point allowing it to penetrate entire cars, 3/4" bulletproof glass, etc. If it hits a soft target it breaks into 3 or 4 sharp pieces, which i like better than the glaser which will break into a hundred pieces which won't cut through organs and ricochet off bone. Also, the aguila is $10 for a box of 20, as opposed to roughly 4 times that amount for RBCD, which is also awesome ammo. Glasers are 12 for 6, which is roughly as much as the RBCD and isn't nearly as good. If i were a proponent of energy on target being the key factor in manstopping, i'd buy RBCD, however, i'm a proponent of the multiple permanent would cavities school of thought (being a medic and nursing student i'm confident that i made the right choice), so i like the aguila, however, both the aguila and RBCD will undoubtebly f*** you up better than most anything on the market.

[Sean Smith]

Gimmick alert! :rolleyes:

[Bobarino]

my vote is for the Cor-Bon 135 grainers. i like light weight and high speed. just my opinion

Bobby

[rappa]

165gr Gold Dots

[Chupacabra]

165gr Federal Hydrashoks as primary and 180gr Golden sabres in the spare mag.

http://staff.washington.edu/bfiguero/Smiles/Thumbsup.gif

[Jerry Morris]

RE:Why do the Federal Hydro shoks have a little raised dot of lead in the middle of the hollow point? This always confused me.

The post is a funcional part of the design. It redirects the hydrolic flow to the sides of the cavity to add in expansion. I have used Hydra-Shok since it was being made by the original Hydra-Shok Corp. It works especially well in low velocity rounds like the .45 ACP.

The same man designed the StarFire hollowpoint and a bullet designed to fragment into three pieces. The name of that round may be Trifire, but the surety of that name and the inventors escapes my memory at this exactl momemt.

Minimal nitpick, note the spelling is Hydra-Shok.

Jerry

[DigMe]

What do you guys think about Hydra Shoks and "overpenetration?" My concealed handgun course instructor loads Glaser safety slugs in his carry piece. He asked me what happens when I shoot a Hydra-shok into a gallon jug of water. I said that it goes through three of them and he said that a Glaser will decimate one without going through and will do the same to a human (yes, I'm aware that humans are not made of water contained by a thin plastic coating). That really made me think of trying out the Glasers. He also recommended some others and said that Corbon 150gr hollow points will have similar results as far as not overpenetrating according to his own impromptu tests. Anyone have any thoughts or experience on this?

brad cook

[Preacherman]

Digme, see my post above on the different design criteria between the 135gr. Cor-Bon and the 165gr. Remington Golden Saber. The Glasers are great IF they hit somewhere where they can damage something significant in about 6" of penetration. If the BG is wearing heavy clothing, or is very heavy-set, or has a lot of muscle mass, a torso hit with a Glaser might not penetrate far enough to hit a vital organ. It'll certainly make a very nasty flesh wound, but if the BG is hopped up on some sort of narcotic, he may not feel it quickly enough to stop his attack. Also, the Glaser isn't great on shooting through cover.

That's why the "exotic" rounds are not carried by police - they need something that can penetrate when necessary, but also do enough damage to stop an attacker.

[Ky Larry]

My CZ 75B likes Winchester 155 grain SilverTip HP's. They seem to shoot where I point them and feed well. If I do my part, I'm sure they will do thiers.

[Jeff OTMG]

Jerry Morris, does the name Tom Burczynski ring a bell?

[Jerry Morris]

Jeff,

Tom Burczynski? Yupper!

Jerry

[sgt127]

Our Dept issue, and must carry on duty ammo, is the Cor-Bon 135. We have over 200 Officers. City/Suburban and some country areas. Our issue weapon for uniforms is the Glock 35. Out of that long barrel, we have pretty immpressive velocity. We have had a couple dogs that needed shooting and one BG. Round seems to work pretty well. I think of it as basically a high cap .357 magnum loaded with 125 GR. HP. give or take a few grains of bullet weight. Ballistically, it seems to be a pretty close match.

[Blain]

Interesting, where can I buy the Aguila IQ .40S&W???

[Scoob]

Why mess with 10mm when .500sw is vastly superior in every way?:rolleyes:

My dad can beat up your dad.:D

I like .40's, even if it offends 10mm fans

:confused::p :)

[ront]

I like the 165gr Pro Load ammo with the Gold Dot bullet.

Ron

[Rebeldon]

I've carried Cor-Bon 135-grain JHP's. Real sizzlers! Never had to actually use them on anybody, so I can't tell you how good they work. :D

[AnchorYanker23]

is www.tacticalforums.com (http://www.tacticalforums.com) go to the terminal effects forum, it's moderated by a pathologist and wound ballistics expert. AWESOME info! absolutley no BS allowed there, If you make a statement there you DAMN well better have good, reputable info to back up what you say, not any gunrag crap or "Strasbourg goat plinking" hoax bs. I'm a pretty smart guy, and the discussions there still quickly go over my head. Forget what gunshop commandos say, these guys are the REAL professionals. It's pretty funny when someone cites a gunrag in there, to watch how quickly the Mods destroy his arguments with cold hard science and expose the person as the fool they are.
The general consensus over there is that the Hydra-shok was a decent design when it was created 15 years ago, but It is far surpassed by newer designs, like Ranger T, gold dot, golden saber(in some bullet weights) and Federal Tactical LE. the problem with the Hydra-shok is it works good in gelatin, where the post can facilitate expansion, but when shot through clothing the post clogs up much more easily and it turns into an expensive FMJ. Many of the tests have Hydra-shoks clogging and exiting the test medium every time when shot through denim.Also, the prefragmented rounds are advised against, due to inadequate penetration and poor results in actual shoots
Let me put it this way: the information there is reliable and detailed enough that I've switched from 230 gr. Hydra-shoks to 230gr. Winchester Ranger T+P.

[Majic]

.40S&W Which Self Defense Round??

The round that reliably feeds and is accurate in your pistol.

[1goodshot]

I use factory 180 gr Speer Gold dot, but there is alot of other good stuff out there.

[gulogulo1970]

I love the 155gr Winchester SilverTips. Top conventional load in the Struassborg goat test a few years back. Very accurate, never had a malfunction. Works for me in Glock 22, 23C and a 27. I have heard that the 165gr bullets in the 40S&W are the most accurate.

[Sean Smith]

Top conventional load in the Struassborg goat test a few years back.

Oy vey... :rolleyes: