Debunked: Limp wristing is a valid excuse for malfunctions


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sturmgewehr
December 2, 2007, 05:20 PM
I hear it over and over again, people making excuses for their hanguns performance by claiming the malfunctions aren't the guns fault but the shooters fault for not holding it correctly.

I've held firm in the belief that if a gun doesn't, work regardless of how loosely you hold it, there's something wrong with the gun. This is especially true in a fighting handgun, more so than a target handgun.

I won't go into what should be the obvious reasons why you would expect your auto to feed properly regardless of your grip. What I will do is show you some video. :) As I've said, I've tested very one of my carry guns to make sure they function reliably even if they are "limp wristed". I go even further than having a "limp wrist", I don't even hold on to the guns, I just let them sit in my hand while I pull the trigger.

Here are the results:

Springfield XD 9mm (http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Video/?action=view&current=MOV01718.flv)
Sig Sauer P226R (http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Video/?action=view&current=MOV01719.flv)
Springfield 1911 TRP (http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Video/?action=view&current=MOV01729.flv)
Beretta Model 92 (http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Video/?action=view&current=MOV01733.flv)

That's all I took with me today, but as you can see these weapons function as designed regardless of how they're held - just as they should.

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El Tejon
December 2, 2007, 05:23 PM
What do you believe "limpwristing" to be?:confused:

Your wrist is straight in the videos. Jeff Cooper used to use his thumb and forefinger to shoot a 1911 (I think it is in a video somewhere), but he did not limpwrist the weapon. You did not either.

sturmgewehr
December 2, 2007, 05:26 PM
Dude, stop. My wrist (nor anyone else's) can be crooked unless we have a birth defect. My wrist is loose and I am not tense in the slightest.

WinchesterAA
December 2, 2007, 05:26 PM
That's not a thorough test bro.. You held it in such a way that the pressure through the firearm remained pretty similar to normal use, like a stiff grip on a weak hand.

I think muscular reflex inefficiencies may throw additional variables into the mix...

You know how you brace for impact? Well, when you're trying to prepare for a followup, while the gun is recoiling you apply counter-pressure. Maybe the wrong pressure is applied due to a lack of reflexive ability thus throwing off the balance of the action and causing the shell casing to get caught in something, the slide to lose momentum, friction in uncommon areas, etc etc.

Try an uncalculated sloppy grip and see what happens.

Rustynuts
December 2, 2007, 05:27 PM
Does seem to be a normal recoil there. Wrist seems pretty firm. Muzzle flip in itself does NOT mean there is limp wristing involved.

boredelmo
December 2, 2007, 05:28 PM
Hm, I wouldn't consider what you are doing to be limp wristing.

The web of your hand is as high as it needs to be.

It looks as if you are almost holding the gun near your waist. The gun's pivot point vs your grip gives it enough resistance to return to battery.

Keep in mind, i think the power of the charge is a factor as well.

sturmgewehr
December 2, 2007, 05:28 PM
How on earth can you apply "counter pressure" when I don't have any fingers on the gun?!?!?!?

Gator
December 2, 2007, 05:29 PM
A lose grip is not "limpwristing", your test doesn't debunk anything.

Nice guns though :)

El Tejon
December 2, 2007, 05:30 PM
Limpwristing on THR=>http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-114074.html

Gator is right about the guns. Nice guns (get that thumb on top of that 1911 safety though or you will discover a new malfunction).:D

sturmgewehr
December 2, 2007, 05:31 PM
What you're seeing is 24 or less frames per second. The gun flops almost out of my hand on recoil, especially with the .45. The only thing keeping it from flying out of my hand is my trigger being through the trigger guard and the web of my hand.

boredelmo
December 2, 2007, 05:31 PM
What you are doing is simply not gripping the firearm. Your wrist stays straight and does not move with recoil.

Imagine your wrist as a ball joint. Twirl it around, make circles with your hand. Take a normal full grip and let the recoil dictate where your wrists move. That would be what i consider wrist limping.

sturmgewehr
December 2, 2007, 05:32 PM
My wrist is most certainly "limp" as all the guys there can attest. As a matter of fact, I fired so much today like that my wrist is actually sore.

WinchesterAA
December 2, 2007, 05:32 PM
You do have fingers on the gun, bro.. You pull the trigger, the firearm kicks back. Guess what your finger does...

It keeps your gun from falling by keeping the trigger depressed, otherwise you'd drop your gun.

There's always counter-pressure, because your pistol when fired rotates on an axis. Your muscles override the force generated by the explosion, if they didn't you wouldn't be holding the gun.


Point in case - I don't think it's necessarily an issue with wrists being limp, I think it has more to do with peoples reflexes being inappropriate for the situation.

Usually due to misunderstanding the concept of how a firearm is made effective.

Bazooka Joe71
December 2, 2007, 05:35 PM
So lets say you were limpwristing, which it can be argued that you weren't...

You fire 1 mag through 4 of your guns and now it's debunked? I wish all tests worked like that.

sturmgewehr
December 2, 2007, 05:48 PM
I shot over 200 rounds today, to the point my trigger finger is sore and even my wrist is a little sore.

taliv
December 2, 2007, 05:50 PM
this thread is limp

JWarren
December 2, 2007, 05:53 PM
Dude, stop

Sorry can't do it here.

My own experience has shown me otherwise.

I grew up shooting revolvers. You can hold them any way you want. In 1994, I decided I wanted a Glock 19 and got one. I had read all the reports of how reliable they were.

Well, mine hung up a LOT. In casual conversation with a MS highway patrol officer, I mentioned this. Knowing my upbringing, he commented that I was probably shooting it like I would shoot a revolver and told me about limpwristing. Later, he came by to demonstrate with his Sig.

So I tried a different grip. Sure enough, it was reliable.

there's something wrong with the gun.


I find that hard to believe. I've had that same Glock 19 for 13 years and it has been by carry handgun for 12 of them. It hasn't failed since I got that lesson from the LEO.

From my understanding, it has to do with inertia and the mass of the slide-- especially with polymer frame handguns. I may test this with my 1911A1 (my NEW carry handgun.)

At any rate, my experiences call BS on it. Yours suggest otherwise. I'll take mine.


-- John

boredelmo
December 2, 2007, 05:58 PM
Limp wristing is a widely accepted cause of malfunctions. I have never heard of there being any controversy of whether its true or not.

The fact you want to debunk it is odd. But the fact that you want to debunk it by....not limp wristing, is even odder.

To be honest, I do not think you can limp wrist a firearm without the fingers wrapped around the gun.

If anyone else sees those vids and agree that you ARE limp wristing, then I will butt out.

Bazooka Joe71
December 2, 2007, 05:58 PM
200 rds is not a test...Even if it were out of 1 gun and you had 4.

A 50 rd test is a joke.

this thread is limp

LOL, sorry. I thought that was funny.

Eric F
December 2, 2007, 06:09 PM
I wouldnt even know how to limp wrist anything.....I'm a man Damn it....Every malfunction on any of my pistols I have ever owned was mag extractor ammo or feed ramp related. Folks use this term limp wrist all the time and I can not figure out what they are speaking of.

cambeul41
December 2, 2007, 06:16 PM
Please. Someone define limp-wristing and propose a way to test it.

Screeching, "That is not limp-wristing," doesn't help my understanding at all. I have tried a variety of sloppy, loose grips and my guns keep on working. My wife was accused of limp-wristing by a Sig rep after she had a problem with his personal Sig 239 although she had never had a problem with our XDs, Glocks, or Tauruses.

JWarren
December 2, 2007, 06:17 PM
Eric,

It has nothing to do with how much of a "Man" you are-- don't even go there. I can think of a number of men who have "limpwristed" a handgun that you'd not dare suggest that they were not "Man-ly."

Limpwristing has to do with not "flexing" your wrist while shooting. On some firearms like revolvers, I have found that allowing the weight of the barrel to pull down the firearm and essentially "flex" the firearm with its own weight makes for a more accurate shot. A limpwristed grip on the Ruger Security Six .357 magnum I had as a kid made one of the most accurate handguns I've ever fired.

That won't work on autos in my experience.

I really don't get why people get so emotionally involved in this topic. I think the term "limp" seems to imply something wrong with the person or an attack on their masculinity or whatever. Please....

The reality is that there are plenty of times that a MAN would want his wrist to not be locked. I'd really like to know that a surgeon that operates on me is operating with some care rather than going in like he is gutting a deer.

People need to figure out what works and move on. I still "limp-wrist" revolvers. Oh, and my beard can take the chrome off a bumper (unfortunately). I'm not too worried about my testosterone levels.


-- John

boldkharma
December 2, 2007, 06:19 PM
Ha ha!!! Limp wristing, if thats what you call it, is real. I love 1911's and Glocks. I have personally witnessed my neighbors daughter "limp wrist" my G17 and she stove piped it twice in two different mags. The G17 has never had a failure when I shoot it. YMMV

Slugless
December 2, 2007, 06:21 PM
I know a guy who's been shooting pistols competitively for about 30 years who claims he can make any semiauto malfunction by the way he holds his hand.

I've "corrected" a brand new "malfunctioning" Glock 17 by showing my friend how to hold his wrist correctly.

Bazooka Joe71
December 2, 2007, 06:22 PM
I wouldnt even know how to limp wrist anything.....I'm a man Damn it....

LOL, good for you buddy.


My one and only 1911 has never malfunctioned when I am using it(after the 2-300 break in rds)...But it malf's once every couple of range sessions when one of my friends or my g/f is shooting it.

Bartholomew Roberts
December 2, 2007, 06:23 PM
Well, you can call it what you like; but there is no doubt in my mind that you can cause a malfunction in a firearm based on how you grip it. I've seen it happen too much to doubt it.

When four different people fire a weapon and the malfunction only happens to one person on a consistent basis, that is pretty much some type of operator error.

Near as I can tell part of the problem is caliber and slide mass. I knew one person who would consistently have malfunctions with a Glock 34; but give them a Glock 35 (more recoil) or a Glock 19 (smaller slide) and no problems.

boldkharma
December 2, 2007, 06:26 PM
Bartholomew. I agree, I thinka lot of it has to do with the lightness of the polymer Glock. The physics of recoil come in to play in a recoil operated pistol.:)

Wes Janson
December 2, 2007, 06:27 PM
I'd also like to point out that, based on my limited experience, I'd hazard the guess that limpwristing tends to occur most commonly in smaller semi-autos, particularly in those intended for concealed carry.

Your test included four full-sized duty sidearms, and precisely zero compact handguns of any make, model, or caliber. Try testing something like a Colt Officer's Model, a Glock 27, a Walther PPK, or a Kel-Tec PF-9 (just to throw out four random examples) and see what happens.

boldkharma
December 2, 2007, 06:29 PM
My Glock 17 is a full sized model.:neener:

Outlaws
December 2, 2007, 06:31 PM
In 1994, I decided I wanted a Glock 19 and got one. I had read all the reports of how reliable they were.

Well, mine hung up a LOT.

Ha. I had a Glock 19 that I could stovepipe almost on command. How? Limpwrist it.

wally
December 2, 2007, 06:33 PM
If its not a "classic" stovepipe failure I agree its not limp wristing. But limp wristing is very real.

I watched my sister have stovepipe after stovepipe with my .25ACP Beretta Jetfire which had never failed for me or anyone else. Standing off the side, I could see what was happening. Her hold was so loose that the gun was following the empty form the recoil (such as it was with a .25!) and the slide moving forward was catching the empties between the slide and barrel causing the failures. FIrmed up her hold and no more problems.

--wally.

boldkharma
December 2, 2007, 06:34 PM
For me it is a non issue. It happens, I've seen it. I work around it with a firm grip because I know the pistol. Glocks are great pistols if they fit you.

Eric F
December 2, 2007, 06:34 PM
Eric,

It has nothing to do with how much of a "Man" you are-- don't even go there. I can think of a number of men who have "limpwristed" a handgun that you'd not dare suggest that they were not "Man-ly."
I just put that in for some commic value guys this whole subject seems silly to me and then the fact that there is the yes there is nothere isnt yes there is thing going on kills me

JWarren
December 2, 2007, 06:38 PM
Eric,

I didn't want to sound like I was calling you out with that. I was editorializing and the only part I was trying to address to you was my interpretion of what limp-wristing was to answer your question.

I did realize your post was humor, and I took it that way. Hell, I make jokes similar to that all the time. I just didnt' want you to take my editoralizing wrong.


-- John

Eric F
December 2, 2007, 06:41 PM
I certianly understand Sir I am laughing alot following this post

pax
December 2, 2007, 06:44 PM
My wife was accused of limp-wristing by a Sig rep after she had a problem with his personal Sig 239 although she had never had a problem with our XDs, Glocks, or Tauruses.


I just made a little bet with myself, and have to ask: was the Sig a little large for her?

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=58041&d=1179065821

vs.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=58040&d=1179065810

Notice the difference in how much support can be given by bones vs muscles, when the gun fit is different.

pax

Kruzr
December 2, 2007, 06:47 PM
Anyone who believes breaking your wrist up immediately after pulling the trigger will not cause many semi-autos to short stroke needs to spend some time teaching classes of new shooters. I see it every Saturday in our Basic Handgun class.

I cannot make my guns do it either but I also can't do a triple gainer off the high board........other people can. If you've never "break-wristed" a gun, then you may never be able to. To assume that it's a myth just because you can't make it happen is a study with a single data point.

JWarren
December 2, 2007, 06:49 PM
I gave my Glock 19 to my wife. It's never hung up on her like it did with me when I was a novice to semi-autos. But then again, she has a GI-Joe Kung-Fu grip.


-- John

Geno
December 2, 2007, 06:54 PM
Gentlemen (and Ladies if I missed any):

I have concluded, based on a lack of facts, that the "limp-wrist" is the "Boogie Man" of shootists. But fear not, for the limp wrist will not bite you, or suck out your innards as would the notorious chupacabra. For any who might not believe me, I have it on good word from a little green being, who landed in my back yard and took me for a nifty spin in its (no gender) anti-gravity ship. After I returned, I had all of life's answers.

Now, let's go investigate crop circles. :o

Doc2005

Geronimo45
December 2, 2007, 06:58 PM
I shot 50rds of .45 ACP.
After around 15-20 rounds, three jams, all on the last round of the magazine. I'd gotten in some kind of weak-hold targetish stance, I guess. Anyway, tightened grip and it worked just fine for the rest of the rounds. Limp wristing may be more of a factor on an under-lubed handgun. I was using a full-size 1911, which are supposed to like running wet. It wasn't that day.

JWarren
December 2, 2007, 07:01 PM
Doc,

uhm... I saw an episode of South Park a while back....

They didn't plant a 30 ft satellite dish anywhere, did they? :what:


-- John

tnieto2004
December 2, 2007, 07:06 PM
I have seen too many times new shooters limp wrist on MY guns and result in a malf ..

Geno
December 2, 2007, 07:07 PM
Hahaha! I'm sorry, this thread is just so darned funny. We all seem to be equally entrenched into our respective positions.

Oooops...sorry...gotta run...he's back with that saucer. Chartman?! That you?!

Doc2005 :neener:

JWarren
December 2, 2007, 07:08 PM
So, it seems like the debunking has been debunked.


-- John

Bazooka Joe71
December 2, 2007, 07:14 PM
So, it seems like the debunking has been debunked.


ding ding ding...

Now sturmgewehr has to debunk the debunked debunking.:p

btg3
December 2, 2007, 07:50 PM
I have no experience with limp-wristing malfunctions, but do understand physics. This type of malfunction is a function of "Resistance To Recoil" (RTR). This thread has nicely captured many sources of RTR:
--the shooter (grip, wrist, etc)
--mass of gun (frame, slide, barrel)
--mass of ammo remaining in gun
--mass of bullet fired
--velocity of bullet fired
--recoil spring stiffness
--lubrication of rail
The list is simplistic (could get deep into moments, inertia, etc, ) but my point is that it is erroneous to broad brush with one RTR factor and make a universal conclusion.

With some combination of the above RTR factors, YES, limp-wristing will cause a malfunction everytime. With others, NO, you will never induce a malfunction with limp-wristing. And with yet others, SOMETIMES.

Many seem to know their gun and ammo well-enough to know whether limp-wristing is a concern. What you know about your handgun, does not necessarily apply to some else's handgun.

1911Tuner
December 2, 2007, 07:56 PM
I was one who also felt that limp-wrist-induced malfunctions were rare...and even moreso unless the gun is seriously oversprung. However...it seems that there are a few designs that will short-cycle unless gripped hard and solidly.
My best advice on that is...If the gun requires just the right grip in order to function...choose something else for serious purpose, and use the grip-sensitive snake for range-only duty.

sturmgewehr
December 2, 2007, 08:51 PM
Screeching, "That is not limp-wristing," doesn't help my understanding at all. I have tried a variety of sloppy, loose grips and my guns keep on working. My wife was accused of limp-wristing by a Sig rep after she had a problem with his personal Sig 239 although she had never had a problem with our XDs, Glocks, or Tauruses.
They can't describe it in such a way that the only way to accomplish it is not to hold the gun at all. That, or perhaps they think over exaggerating the effects of recoil will produce it.

To the poster that wonders why anyone would try to debunk this as an excuse for malfunctions, it's simple. I believe that a quality firearm that's properly designed will fire and cycle no matter how you hold it. In my case, I wasn't holding it and I didn't have a stiff wrist in the slightest.

It's even more pronounced in the Sig video given the high bore hight of the gun. The gun flops around so much it looks like I'm going to drop it several times. Watch as it bobbles around in my hand, forward and back. Clearly this gun is being limp wristed A LOT.

Sig video again (http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Video/?action=view&current=MOV01719.flv)

Now, after watching that, if you don't think my wrist is limp as it can be while still attached to my body, you're blind or loony. :)

As for the guy trying the angle "50 round test is a joke": Do you think this is the first time I've done this to these guns? LOL I've said I've done this to all of my carry guns and I do it quite often showing people how reliable various guns can be.

Now, can holding a gun in such a way cause a malfunction? ABSOLUTELY. Is it an excuse for the gun not to work? NO. Why? Because there are plenty of well engineered firearms out there that will work.

sturmgewehr
December 2, 2007, 08:54 PM
However...it seems that there are a few designs that will short-cycle unless gripped hard and solidly.

Yup, there are... and I contend those guns aren't properly designed or built. The notion all or even most semi-auto's will malfunction if held in such a way isn't a valid excuse for a gun to fail as I know for a fact quality weapons won't fail regardless of how you hold them (or in my case not hold them).

sturmgewehr
December 2, 2007, 08:55 PM
I have seen too many times new shooters limp wrist on MY guns and result in a malf ..
And it's my contention that you need to find more reliable handguns as they do exist.

sturmgewehr
December 2, 2007, 09:01 PM
Well, you can call it what you like; but there is no doubt in my mind that you can cause a malfunction in a firearm based on how you grip it. I've seen it happen too much to doubt it.
I never said you couldn't. I question the quality of the design of the guns that you can.

My point is that claiming a gun malfunctions as a result of your grip is a poor excuse. It's not the fault of the shooter the gun isn't working, it's the fault of the firearm.

pax
December 2, 2007, 09:09 PM
Sturmgewehr,

Not screeching here, but the fact is, you're not limpwristing in those videos -- your wrist is aligned with your forearm bones during recoil, flexing up or down but not to either side at any point. Because your wrist is aligned with your forearm bones, the guns are receiving enough support to do their thing.

Don't feel bad about it: most experienced shooters are physically incapable of producing a limpwrist malfunction. That's why we have interminable threads where people argue about it.

btg3 ~

Good post.

pax

sturmgewehr
December 2, 2007, 09:16 PM
Not screeching here, but the fact is, you're not limpwristing in those videos -- your wrist is aligned with your forearm bones during recoil, flexing up or down but not to either side at any point. Because your wrist is aligned with your forearm bones, the guns are receiving enough support to do their thing.

Dude, please watch this video again and tell me I'm not limp wristing. I know what limp wristing is and this video clearly shows a gun being limp wristed. It's about to fall out of my hand, watch as it flops up, down, and even left and right.

The Sig video again (http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Video/?action=view&current=MOV01719.flv)

Larry Ashcraft
December 2, 2007, 09:18 PM
Case in point: Never had any problems with my 1911s until I tried shooting weak-hand at an IPSC match. Two stovepipes in one mag.

I had tendon surgery years ago on my left hand and the doctors warned me my left hand would never have more than 80% of its original strength.

A slight inward cant of my hand tightens the muscles and the problem disappears (think a slight "gangster grip"). But the fact remains, my left hand doesn't have the strength to prevent malfunctions with a normal grip.

After all that pontificating, I'm moving this to Handguns, Autoloaders, where it belongs.

pax
December 2, 2007, 09:20 PM
Dude, I did watch it -- twice. And it still does not look like limpwristing to me.

pax

sturmgewehr
December 2, 2007, 09:21 PM
Dude, I did watch it -- twice. And it still does not look like limpwristing to me.
That's absolutely amazing. The only way I could hold the gun any more loosely would be to not hold it at all. If you can allow a gun to flop around more uncontrolled than that, shoot the video as I want to see it.

Deer Hunter
December 2, 2007, 09:23 PM
I'm with the original poster. Limpwristing is mostly used as an excuse people have when their brand new 1300 1911/sig/HK doesn't work out of the box correctly and/or is defective in some way. They don't want to admit that they spent all that money on a gun that works with some ammo, sometimes. So it's obviously the fault of the shooter, right?

Perhaps there is some truth to it, but the ratio of actual documented cases of limpwristing and the times it is used as an excuse is quite large. Much like ADHD, in my opinion. Some cases are honest-to-God true blue cases of where the kid needs some kind of medication. But most of the time?

Smokin Gator
December 2, 2007, 09:33 PM
I've read that in some of the pistol shooting sports, shooters (when having a bad stage) would purposely induce their firearm to malfunction, because at the time you would be given a reshoot when a gun malfunctioned. I'd have to think that they were using high quality guns in the first place to compete.
My own personal experience. I have shot only a few IDPA matches. The first time I shot my CZ75B, strong hand only, I had the slide not fully cycle 3 or 4 times. On this stage you held onto a dummy while squatting slightly and shooting through a small window at a small steel target that was farther down range than most targets. Plus it was very windy. I was trying to concentrate on my sight picture wobbling in the wind and didn't have the best grip on the gun. A couple of more experienced shooters told me to grip the gun better, that I was limp wristing it. As I shot the stage I also thought I might have an ammo problem with my reloads. Rest of the match shooting two handed no problem. 2 more matches one or two handed 0 problems. This gun also has had action work done by one of the top CZ gunsmiths and shooters in the country, Matt Mink.

I do think that sometimes shooters attribute other problems or malfunctions incorrectly to limp wristing.

Millwright
December 2, 2007, 09:40 PM
Sturm,

Its your opinion and you're welcome to it. I'll still go with Massad Ayoob and a host of others with pretty substantial credentials on the phenomona......

IMO, since pistols are recoil operated, reliable performance is predicated upon a consistent mass/energy relationship modulated by springs. Change any aspect and reliable function is affected. "Limp Wristing" implies a lack of control over both recoil and flip - both of which can impair proper slide travel, hence extraction and reloading.

FWIW, try your "experiment" with the arm in a rig that doesn't haven any recoil/flip control - say like suspended in strings. Alas any vice or rest and/or 'slider you contrive will have a degree of intertia dependent upon its mass, just as did the arm in the videos, so the ony true test would be an 'unsupported' fire test series to establish a base line - for that arm and accessories and that particular brand/load of ammunition. And so on it goes......

I recall the NJSP buying new S&W's and being embarrassed by multiple 'stovepipe' failures at the intro demo to the press........Seems their ammo had less snot than the specs they issued cited and S&W built for........>MW

pax
December 2, 2007, 09:53 PM
sturmgewehr,

Like most experienced shooters, I personally cannot limpwrist anything no matter how hard I try. Sorry not to help more here!

But I've spent enough afternoons standing on the range watching new shooters do it, with guns that no experienced shooter can cause to malf, that I can say, "Huh, well, I know it when I see it." ;)

It's a specific motion, difficult to describe but unmistakable when seen. It's got very little to do with grip strength, though telling the person to tighten up their grip will usually also cause them to stop doing it. Telling them to keep their wrists straight -- even though that is what they actually need to do -- is very rarely an effective way to get them to stop doing it, because most people who do it think they're holding their wrists straight when in fact you can see their wrists bending as they fire.

On those videos, you are holding the gun loosely, but you're not limpwristing. Once you've learned to hold the gun properly, it's just about impossible to manufacture that error artificially.

pax

sturmgewehr
December 2, 2007, 09:54 PM
Its your opinion and you're welcome to it. I'll still go with Massad Ayoob and a host of others with pretty substantial credentials on the phenomona......
I've never said it couldn't happen.

FWIW, try your "experiment" with the arm in a rig that doesn't haven any recoil/flip control - say like suspended in strings.
Now there's a realistic test of reliability. I often find myself stringing my handguns up around the house.

You apparently completely miss the point of this exercise, it's not to prove it can't happen (I've clearly stated it can and it's the fault of the pistol) it's to prove quality pistols don't suffer from the problem.

Double Naught Spy
December 2, 2007, 10:02 PM
sturmgewehr,
What you fail to understand is how limpwristing occurs. It isn't just a matter of a limp, but letting the gun pivot at the wrist. As noted by pax, you have proper alignment and then you are precluding the gun from recoiling up by absorbing some of the recoil with your elbow and shoulder, taking the energy that would turn the gun upwards and bleeding it off through the rearward motion of your arm.

As for your contention that properly designed, quality guns don't suffer limp wrist problems, I had a good laugh. I have seen it happen with some of the same guns you showed in your videos.

Next time, lock your elbows and shoulders and fire with a limp wrist and see what happens.

Limp wristers also often have a problem with barrel-spiral-bullet torque that causes the gun to twist in the hand.

The other posters are right. You are holding the gun loosely, but not duplicating limp wristing.

R.W.Dale
December 2, 2007, 10:11 PM
This thread clearly identifies those who use limpwristing as an excuse for a malfunctioning handgun. If your gun is sensitive to how it's held then it ain't workin right

I find it utterly laughable that intentional limpwristing is being called everything but what it is in a vain effort to defend the excuse of choice for the unreliable handgun.

If an attacker is on top of you trying to stab you in the face are you gonna politely ask him to step back a few paces so you can get into your Weaver stance?

RH822
December 2, 2007, 10:25 PM
You apparently completely miss the point of this exercise, it's not to prove it can't happen (I've clearly stated it can and it's the fault of the pistol) it's to prove quality pistols don't suffer from the problem.

I applaud your efforts Sturm, but I do not think you can intentionally replicate limp wrist. Not just by holding it anyway.
Limp wrist is, when during recoil your wrist breaks and absorbs the recoil and reduces the the amount of energy being transfered to the slide which results in the slide not having the proper amount of force to compress the spring. At no time in any of the video's did your wrist break, the resistance required for the gun to operate correctly was still being provided by a locked wrist and a firm forearm. A loose grip does not equal limp wrist nor does it have the same effect.

BTW
Where are you at in Indiana? I'm in the NE, a little speck called Pleasant Lake.
RH

Ed Ames
December 2, 2007, 10:26 PM
OK, let's accept what you did as equivalent to a limp wrist (though the defining characteristic of "limp wristing" is to allow a movement of the frame which upsets the slide timing and you weren't doing that). Seems like your argument is analogous to this:

I have a video of myself flying a Ercoupe 415-C (it's a particular manufacturer/model of airplane) without touching the rudder pedals and I didn't crash. Therefore I've debunked the myth of airplanes needing rudder pedals. If someone gets into a Extra 300 (that's another manufacturer/model) and doesn't touch the rudder pedals and crashes then the Extra 300 is not a quality airplane.

That is logically incorrect. The possibility of a certain type of failure when the operator makes a mistake has no bearing at all on quality. The Extra 300 is a high performance stunt plane that was designed for light weight, serious maneuverability, and fine control. It wasn't designed to allow any idiot to fly without knowing how. The Ercoupe, on the other hand, was a low performance plane designed to make flying easier for people with no feet (I guess). By every objective standard the quality is either identical or the Extra is of higher quality -- but the operator training requirements are higher for the Extra. It's like saying that Ferraris are low quality cars because Dietrich crashed one on Pacific Coast Highway. The degree of skill required to operate a device is not a component of the quality of a device. A violin is not lower quality than a recorder because it is harder to play.

Same with a Glock. Your argument that a Glock 17 is a low quality pistol because an improperly trained user can induce failures is not logically correct.

In many cases you will find that higher quality devices are harder to operate correctly because they also push some parameter and assume that the operator will know how to compensate. Extremely small or light handguns would be an example.. you can shave ounces off a gun if you count on the mass of the shooter's arm to augment the mass of the frame. Doing so raises the likelihood of limp-wristing induced failures. So in order to improve the quality in a specific way (ease of concealment) they raised the operator skill required for reliability.

NASCAR_MAN
December 3, 2007, 12:19 AM
Sturm,

Thank you for posting your tests, for REAL data beats a lot of speculation any day. Also, I watched the videos closely and I do think you performed the demo correctly - you DID limpwrist the pistols - and this is especially apparent because you are standing at quite an angle to the pistols while simultaneously firing and filming.

Now...for those who make excuses about failures to cycle: I suggest you get your guns fixed if this is happening to you. The Bad Guys are not going to wait until you've assumed the "proper stance" and "Grip" before they attack you - there will be no "Excuses" and certainly no "Do-Overs".

A buddy of mine had to defend his life with a blood-soaked High-Power while in the process of being beaten-to-death by a couple of Thugs who ambushed him while he was closing shop late one night. Let me assure you, his grip "wasn't too good" - and that was the last thing he could care about as we was rolling on the floor getting his face smashed - he just needed the gun to reliably fire. And it did. His life was saved. (and that's how stuff goes down)

Steve C
December 3, 2007, 12:47 AM
I've seen too many examples of people who limp wrist the pistols an then complain they don't function. When I take their pistol I can't reproduce the failure to feed, yet they can take my pistol that has functioned for me without failure for 1000's of rounds and get it to fail and that was a Beretta 92 as shown in your video. The level of recoil impulse also varies by ammo with a higher velocity load producing enough energy that failures of this type disappear. With a heavy pistol its unlikely you'd see a limp wrist failure too.

I have to agree with others that you didn't limp wrist any of the guns shown when you fired them in the video. The Beretta 92 had little to no muzzle flip, while the Sig with its higher barrel Ht over the grip showed more.

Try this, Start with your wrist in the "broken" or down position and allow it to rock back with the recoil. Hold the pistol like you picked it up with trigger finger on the second pad like many novices shoot and use modest power ammo, typical USA 9mm with a 115gr at 1,100 fps. I think you'll find that even fighting experience you can reproduce a short cycle.

TimboKhan
December 3, 2007, 01:10 AM
Dude, please watch this video again and tell me I'm not limp wristing

Just to clarify, Pax is not a dude. She is a "ma'am". Maybe even a Miss, Ms. or a Mrs, but definitely not a dude. And please, as someone who says dude constantly, do not call her a "dudette", thats just wack.

Also, I have to agree with everyone else. Loose grip does not = limp wristing.

The Bad Guys are not going to wait until you've assumed the "proper stance" and "Grip" before they attack you - there will be no "Excuses" and certainly no "Do-Overs".

Learning proper grip is essential to good shooting, under pressure or otherwise. It may not always be possible to assume a perfect stance, but perfect stance isn't the most important ingredient in making a good shot. Trigger control, sights and grip are the holy trinity of shooting a handgun well (regardless of stance), and ignoring one in favor of the others typically means a bad shot. Grip is less a descriptor of how hard you grip the gun, and more of a descriptor of how the gun sits in your hand. Case in point, most any expert, internet or otherwise, will say that training to shoot with your weak hand is important, as you might lose the ability to use your strong hand somehow (broken, fingers missing, stabbed, whatever). The key to learning to shoot with your weak hand? Trigger control, sights and proper grip. Perhaps you feel that you may not have the time to attain a proper grip, but you sure as heck don't have the time to miss when it counts, so train yourself to instinctivly grip a pistol properly (which isn't even all that hard to do). Instinctive gripping is many, many times faster than missing, my friend.

Now, with that being said, stance can be of major importance in making more accurate shots. Assuming that the trinity is all good, I can certainly shoot better from a solid isoceles stance than I can while balancing on one foot. However, it doesn't matter what my stance is if I am mugging the trigger, limpwristing, or not paying attention to sight alignment. Having a loose grip does NOT greatly effect trigger control or sight alignment, although it makes both slightly more difficult.

Try this. With all reasonable and possible safety measures in place, dry fire your favorite gun using your normal grip and aligning your sights as if you were making a real shot. Then, grip your favorite gun using just your thumb and your trigger finger, but keep everything else the same. Now, dry fire. Notice that the gun is obviously loose in your hand, yet you can still perform all three of the functions pretty well, although in real fire it would be somewhat harder to recover. Not impossible, but harder. Now mug the trigger, over grip, and put your wrist at a wierd angle (anything but straight). Dry Fire. Notice how even in dry firing you can see how craptacular the result would have been. Now, go back to your normal firing grip, but this time, really squeeze the bejeezus out of the grip... notice how hard it is to keep the sights aligned through all the shaking? Compare your normal grip with the bejeezus grip, and you will see that a normal grip is actually considerably looser than you would have imagined it to be! You can repeat all of this with your weak hand if you want, and while it will feel awkward, do it enough and you will get the same results. This would be a better experiment if I had a camera available, but I don't. Sorry.

One thing that you immediately notice when you try to hold the gun at a wierd wrist angle is that it seems VERY awkward. Well, thats because it is very awkward! Still, I have seen new shooters do some truly bizarre things, simply because they don't know the right way to do it. My mom, for example, demonstrated to me how she shot a handgun one day, and it was the wierdest thing I have ever seen. I actually can't even describe it, and I didn't take a picture, but trust me, nothing good would have come of that. When I tried out the above experiment, it actually hurt a little bit trying to align the sights with my wrist bent, but I have seen plenty of new shooters do exactly what I just tried to do.

What it boils down to is this: Most of us here on THR are experienced shooters in the sense that we know the basic premise of shooting a handgun well. Whether we do so or not is debatable, but the basic ingredients for accurate fire are there. Because of that, I think we often forget that not everyone knows the basic tenets of handgun shooting, and when you try to figure it out on your own, crazy things can happen.

Ed Ames
December 3, 2007, 01:18 AM
Everyone's a dude these days. Weird, I know.

RexKwonDo
December 3, 2007, 01:35 AM
sturmgewehr, If you want to prove that you know how to make a pistol fail due to a poor grip, then there is an easy way to do it. Shoot pistols that you believe do malfunction when being limp wristed, and shoot them with a limp wrist. If you are able to get them to reliably fail while your other guns reliably shoot with the same grip, then you will demonstrate that one group of guns fail your grip while the other does not. Of course, people could still say that though your grip makes them fail, it is not limp wristing, but your point about different guns being able to handle poor grips better than others will be proven.

Wes Janson
December 3, 2007, 01:49 AM
I am of the suspicion that in the event of a serious, careful series of tests, one would not be able to find a single brand or type of handgun that could not be made to malfunction when improperly held against recoil, using some form of commonly available ammunition. And that furthermore, those who claim that others are making excuses, have themselves never truly tested the limits of their own firearms.

It's easy to fall into the trap of superiority, but I'd like someone to come forward and explain just what the most reliable and error-proof handgun really is. For all of these accusations that others are shooting "malfunctioning" handguns, I'm left trying to figure out which pistols are left. If credible observers have seen or induced malfunctions into Glocks, SIGs, 1911s, Berettas, XDs, and every other major type of highly regarded sidearm, then what remains?

TimboKhan
December 3, 2007, 02:16 AM
It's easy to fall into the trap of superiority, but I'd like someone to come forward and explain just what the most reliable and error-proof handgun really is. For all of these accusations that others are shooting "malfunctioning" handguns, I'm left trying to figure out which pistols are left. If credible observers have seen or induced malfunctions into Glocks, SIGs, 1911s, Berettas, XDs, and every other major type of highly regarded sidearm, then what remains?

Wes, you know as well as I do that handguns are mechanical devices, and as such any design is prone to failure. Proper handling greatly reduces the chance of failure, but even then you are going to find a detractor for any model, make or brand you can think of. Besides, the most reliable and error-proof handgun there is won't work if the ammo is cruddy!

-v-
December 3, 2007, 02:40 AM
sturmgewher, going to also mirror what most people here have said regarding the "limp-wrist." From personal experience, limp-wristing mainly involves breaking your wrist and elbow. The way that you are hold your arm to wrist in all your videos is at 180 degrees. Try breaking your had and elbow so that the angle between your gun and forearm is at say 150 degrees or less and your elbow is bent with almost no tensing in either and then shoot.

Equally, from personal experience it seems that how hard you grip the weapon is not as major cause of limp-wrist induced malfunction as much as letting your arms fly back with the recoil of the weapon. Heck, when I try to hit distant targets I have almost zero pressure in my hands, yet my wrist-to-arm angle is 180 degrees and I have never had a malfunction like that. In all your videos you're still doing things mostly right! What essentially you have to do is almost let the weapon hit you in the forehead due to bent arms and no resistance to recoil.

jlbraun
December 3, 2007, 12:37 PM
The definition of a limpwrist is any action by the shooter that prevents a firearm from utilizing all of the recoil force to extract, eject, feed, cock and reload the weapon.

The videos definitively show the firearm in this condition. The recoil force goes into twisting the gun instead of reloading the weapon. Positioning of the wrist and arm is irrelevant. All that matters is that the gun's recoil is not resisted and instead goes into moving the gun excessively.

The cries of "That ain't limpwristing!" are a variation of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman).

If a firearm is susceptible to limpwristing malfs, then it is in need of repair or replacement.

One practices holding one's pistol firmly in practice for a defensive situation. However, if your firearm is susceptible to limpwrist malfs and you are sleepy, disoriented, scared, or anything else that would cause you to not hold the firearm properly, then it could jam.

Thanks for some actual data on this subject.

Gator
December 3, 2007, 01:54 PM
Wow, that's just incredible.

Hawk
December 3, 2007, 02:15 PM
These "limp wrist" threads pop up with some degree of regularity.

I'm with Sturmgewehr for all practical purposes. I don't maintain that it can't or hasn't happened, only that it's a misdiagnosis in the majority of cases.

My personal estimate is that's it's misdiagnosed close to 100% of the time when the diagnostician is a dealer or manufacturer with a vested interest in the sale staying final.

One local dealer, evidently looking to add a "Cynicism" category to the Guinness book of records, actually stocked various grip-enhancing pieces of gymnasium equipment as a secondary profit center.

The credibility of diagnostics is several orders of magnitude better when the individual claiming limp-wrist has no commercial interest in the outcome but, even here, I've seen it applied incorrectly no small number of times. Not all user induced grip related malfs are properly termed "limp wrist". As example, if someone in one of your classes needs to be bandaged after the first round from slide-bite, that's not limp-wrist. Neither would be any other grip-related issue that inhibits slide movemont. It's easy to lump it into "limp wrist" but I submit it's confusing and complicates remedial measures when misidentified.

But we'll probably be laboring under the haze for some time to come. In a recent "limp wrist" thread, one poster actually reported on a lack of "limp wrist" failure in the context of "no wrist".
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=3810920&postcount=53

My personal surmise is that, at least in some rare cases, those claiming the ability to limp-wrist at will are much like old time motorcycle riders that were never aware that they were using countersteering inputs - like as not, there's some degree of "slide drag" or some other unconscious sleight of hand at work other than simply breaking one's wrist. Otherwise, the "zip tie through the lanyard loop" should have produced a "limp wrist" malf.

I'll even grant that some semis might be subject to such shenanigans. Be assured I'll stay well clear of any that exhibit such tendencies.

JDGray
December 3, 2007, 02:25 PM
Intresting thread. I could shoot my G19, with slightly down powerd handloads, and the gun would run 100%, with the empties landing a few feet to my right. I hand the gun to my 10yr old son, using the same ammo, and got stovepipe after stovepipe, the empies that did eject, fall on his feet. Its all in the way you hold the gun. If you dont lock your elbow, than your arm acts like a shock absorber, causing malfunctions. All steel guns seem to have less issues. But this is just my observations.(YMMV):)

sturmgewehr
December 3, 2007, 02:35 PM
Outstanding post Hawk.

I'm inspired. If the weather holds out next weekend I'm going to do the ultimate limp wrist test by recreating the experiment you linked to and video tape the results. I will also use several popular makes in the test and we'll see how it goes.

akanotken
December 3, 2007, 06:21 PM
The good news is that you don't know how to limpwrist. That's a good thing. Likely because you DO shoot a lot. You certainly demonstrated a loose grip tho. To visualize limpwristing, lock your arm and shake hands with someone. That would be the motion, and it isn't exagerated in your video (slightly there)

I'm not sure I could either, but I think starting with the gun loosely canted down (as was suggested) might be the way to see. Also, the suggestion that you prove that you can limpwrist any gun is good science (your experiments only proved that you couldn't limpwrist, need further input to say the gun can't).

To all those with skepticism, To debunk the debunking, I'd say all that is needed is for someone to limpwrist a 226, XD, 92 or a TRP basically on command (so that it's not shown to be ammo or ??? related problems).

My personal belief (with a certain amount of experience watching others) is that guns can be made to limpwrist. I've not really studied it too much, but likely isn't a black and white issue. Life rarely is. We probably are looking for the rate that pistols tend to FTF given a limpwrist. Likely a function of mass, caliber, grip/angle, etc and a host of shooter variables. Valid experiments could involve a lot of shooters (yours had one), a lot of guns (yours had 4) and a lot of rounds (sounds like you have a good start on it). Or, look to a large diverse population of shooters (the experiences on a gun board, an SO's experience for a shooting sport, etc) and you can come away with some conclusions too, some of which has been offered in this thread.

Why subscribe that a quality made gun can't be limpwristed? Glocks (yech) are quality firearms and most certainly can. thus, they need a shooter who isn't likely to limp wrist it.

Maybe you'd prefer we call your models beginners models because they are less likely to be limpwristed by new shooters?

But I appreciate your post and WILL think twice about recommending a Glock to newbies unless I know they will train, or at least test drive them to see if thier are problems.

eldon519
December 3, 2007, 06:32 PM
Does not look like limp-wristing to me. Furthermore, those guns looked pretty darn clean and 50 rounds is not that much. There are other factors that go into it like the gun being dirty, the gun being over-sprung, the ammunition being weak, etc.

Sorry, it doesn't prove a thing, and I've seen limp-wristing cause malfunctions myself.

Bazooka Joe71
December 3, 2007, 06:45 PM
Someone on a previous page said they know someone that can make any gun malfunction just by the way they hold it...I'm not saying it isn't true by any means, but I would love to see him/her cause a CZ 75B to malf by the way they hold it...I use this pistol as an example because it is one of my handguns(IMVH collection) that has never malfunctioned and will not malfunction if I try and it's never malfunctioned for any of my friends...The same friends that do get my 1911 to malfunction.





Man, thats a lot of "malfunctions" for one paragraph :)

Hawk
December 3, 2007, 07:13 PM
Does not look like limp-wristing to me. Furthermore, those guns looked pretty darn clean and 50 rounds is not that much. There are other factors that go into it like the gun being dirty, the gun being over-sprung, the ammunition being weak, etc.

Perhaps the "myth" vs. "real" crowd could find some area of agreement if certain terms and definitions were shared.

Can we agree that a "limp wrist" malfunction, to be considered "real" must be due solely to the behavior of one's wrist / grip on the weapon?

In other words, a malf due to a dirty or unlubricated firearm is due to it being dirty or unlubricated and not limp wrist?

Similarly, "oversprung" or "out of spec ammo" are malfs onto themselves and not related to limp wrist?

I suppose one could strike a balance where a firearm is just dirty, under-lubed or oversprung enough that a weak grip could induce a malf where it would run with a better grip, but then we'd get mired in which condition contributed more and little would be learned.

So, in an effort to define a "real" limp-wrist malf, is it reasonable to grant that the weapon will be clean, properly sprung, with correct ammo and that it should occur with regularity? 50 rounds should be more than enough - most claims of "limp wrist" that I've seen involved one or more malfs per magazine, not per box of ammo.

eldon519
December 3, 2007, 07:25 PM
I just think there are a lot of factors that go into most given malfunctions rather than always ascribing them to a single cause. You could have a dirty, over-sprung gun with target ammo that does not malfunction in a firm-wristed shooters hand but will malfunction in a limp-wrister's hand. To me, that is enough to say that limp-wristing can cause a malfunction. It is a variable that can be changed that can induce a problem.

That scenario typifies my shooting. I shoot primarily lead reloads in a 1911 with an 18.5 lb spring. I shoot both starting target and hotrod hardball loads with the same spring, and for me, it'll go boom every time. If I've brought novice shooters along, that's not necessarily the case. The only thing that changed was the shooter and his/her grip.

Deer Hunter
December 3, 2007, 07:26 PM
I'd like to see someone who's bashing this guy's videos to post up a video of THEM limpwristing...

varoadking
December 3, 2007, 07:35 PM
Quote:
this thread is limp

LOL, sorry. I thought that was funny.

LMAO...so did I...

Ed Ames
December 3, 2007, 07:38 PM
My only story or reason for thinking that limpwristing exists is this:

When I was a teen (before I could buy a gun) my family went shooting with a guy who had just bought a couple of brand new guns. One of them was one of the cheap chinese 1911 clones you could buy back then. Brand new, he'd never fired it... and he was pissed by the end of the second magazine. It was constantly jamming. When it didn't jam he couldn't hit within a mile of the target. Cheap chinese junk! He was going to take it back it was so bad. Well, I said how I'd never fired a 1911 before and I know it's jamming and all but gee I'd sure like to try it. He reluctantly handed me a loaded magazine and I proceeded to fire the magazine load without any problems (and hit where I was wanted to once I realized that the fixed sights were pointing low). He tried it again and it stovepiped several times. My father tried it and it worked fine. The guy went back to his lever-action and his revolver at that point.

mp510
December 3, 2007, 07:39 PM
Limpwristing is real. A couple weeks ago, I wittnessed it first hand at the range. Somebody was letting a young kid ~11ish shoot a 1911 with a Ciener kit. While the kid was shooting the pistol, it was consistantly jamming in cycling after every shot. When the adult shot the pistol, to function check it, it was shooting VERY reliably. The little kid's hands weren't big enough to get a good grasp on the grip, and he didn't have enough strength in his wrists either.

steelyblue
December 3, 2007, 07:56 PM
The guy who owns the gun range I shoot at sold me a Springfield Champion years ago, and it kept failing to eject. He told me that it must be my grip! After trying the thing several times and it doing the same thing, it turned out that it was the spring. I've never had another 1911 do that. I tend to agre that it is the gun and not the user. Any number of things could go wrong, but for a more accurate test, find a flamer that likes guns and give him 100 rounds. Make sure he's a real girly man!!!lol

Disclaimer: This is not to offend any men who may like men!!!!

sturmgewehr
December 3, 2007, 08:03 PM
Sorry, it doesn't prove a thing, and I've seen limp-wristing cause malfunctions myself.
It helps to read the thread before posting. I've said several times no one is denying it can't happen. What I'm saying is that it's not a valid excuse for a malfunction given there are plenty of weapons that won't malfunction regardless of how you hold them.

As Hawk posted, there has been tests done by members of this forum where they laid a pistol unsupported on a sandbag and give it several inches of slack before capturing it thereby preventing it from falling to the ground.

Unless you're calling that poster a liar, then you have to assume his tests were real as were the results. No human can limp wrist a gun worse than it not being held at all.

I plan on conducting similar tests my next time out. The guns will be completely unsupported.

Shall we take bets? :)

eldon519
December 3, 2007, 09:00 PM
If you've ever watched someone fire a gun in slow motion limp-wristed, some shooters actually "wag" the gun more than once, ie. they basically shake it up and down twice. There was a slow motion video not long ago of guys shooting a .500 S&W and doing it. I can't tell you for sure if that is something that is more likely to induce a malfunction or not, but I can tell you that is something a completely unsupported pistol will not do.

The nature of logic is that it takes a great deal of testing to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt, but it only takes a single success to disprove something said to be impossible. I've seen plenty of guns that are otherwise entirely reliable in multiple shooters hands malfunction when used by a inexperienced shooter.

Double Naught Spy
December 3, 2007, 09:21 PM
Every so often a thread comes up about brass hitting the shooter in the head. This happens as a result of a mechanic problem or a limp wrist-related problem. After firing, the muzzle is allowed to jump high enough and the gun to toque in the hands such that the case that usually would eject out to the side and back ends up ejecting into the shooter's head.

You can see it in this thread on TFL...
http://208.67.249.138/forums/showthread.php?t=167755&highlight=brass+hit+face

So the image shows a good limp wrist result where the gun has rocked back, pivoting at the wrist, muzzle pointed skyward. Of course, it has also torqued over to the left as well.

Note that sturmgewehr's vids don't show this sort of muzzle rise. He is dampening the muzzle rise during recoil by absorbing it through his elbows and shoulders as evidence by the gun and hand positions seem moving backwards (toward his body) a few inches.

sturmgewehr
December 3, 2007, 09:23 PM
If you've ever watched someone fire a gun in slow motion limp-wristed, some shooters actually "wag" the gun more than once, ie. they basically shake it up and down twice.
You mean like this:

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Video/th_sig_slow_motion.jpg (http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Video/?action=view&current=sig_slow_motion.flv)

Hawk
December 3, 2007, 09:25 PM
The nature of logic is that it takes a great deal of testing to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt, but it only takes a single success to disprove something said to be impossible. I've seen plenty of guns that are otherwise entirely reliable in multiple shooters hands malfunction when used by a inexperienced shooter.

Nobody's saying a limp-wrist malf is impossible.

What some of us are saying is that "limp wrist" is like bigfoot - it's possible he's out there but we've seen far too many cases where something else has been mis-identified as bigfoot to take it as seriously as some others.

Personally, I'm very uncomfortable with granting a diagnosis of "limp wrist" with firearms that are unlubricated, mis-sprung or fed goofy ammo. Eliminate the root cause and the "limp wrist" doesn't happen, n'cest pas?

I've seen plenty, if fact too many, guns diagnosed as being "limp wristed" start running when the firearm is fixed. Anecdotes don't count.

sturmgewehr
December 3, 2007, 09:27 PM
So the image shows a good limp wrist result where the gun has rocked back, pivoting at the wrist, muzzle pointed skyward. Of course, it has also torqued over to the left as well.

Note that sturmgewehr's vids don't show this sort of muzzle rise. He is dampening the muzzle rise during recoil by absorbing it through his elbows and shoulders as evidence by the gun and hand positions seem moving backwards (toward his body) a few inches.
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!? (EDIT: I don't mean this to be an angry question :))That's a .50 AE and by the looks of it, the gun cycled just fine. But I've seen people that weighed 150lbs shooting the .50 AE and that gun turns them inside-out. If you look at the kid, his elbows are locked and his shoulders are firm, two things I've been told several times here are critical to limp wristing (elbows unlocked and shoulders relaxed).

Which is it?

But to show a 130lbs kid shooting a .50 AE which would cause anyone his size to do the exact same thing, and show pics of the gun actually cycling as it should, then claim that's an example of a limp wrist is kind of funny. :)

sturmgewehr
December 3, 2007, 09:29 PM
Nobody's saying a limp-wrist malf is impossible.
Hawk, I'm convinced half of the people responding don't bother to even read the thread. Several times people have said "I know guns can be limp wristed because I've seen it" and several times they've been reminded no one is saying it can't happen.

What can ya do? :p

fletcher
December 3, 2007, 09:37 PM
All I know is that one local match a range-owned XD9 was part of the stage - everyone had to shoot a few rounds through it. For one shooter, the thing would jam every round, but would not do so for anyone else. I don't know what to call that other than limpwristing, seeing as she has caused that to happen on polymer pistols before.

Hawk
December 3, 2007, 09:41 PM
All I know is that one local match a range-owned XD9 was part of the stage - everyone had to shoot a few rounds through it. For one shooter, the thing would jam every round, but would not do so for anyone else. I don't know what to call that other than limpwristing, seeing as she has caused that to happen on polymer pistols before.

May very well have been limp wrist.

Might have been thumb-riding the slide. I've been quite amazed by how that can happen without one's hide being immediately sand-papered.

Fact is, nobody knows if nobody took the time to properly diagnose and correct the shooter's issue. I once saw a polymer pistol with an apparent limp-wrist actually be a "cup and saucer" grip that pushed the magazine farther up than designed which evidently put some drag on the system - I don't know this for certain but the same shooter could one-hand the thing without incident.

Ed Ames
December 3, 2007, 09:45 PM
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!? That's a .50 AE and by the looks of it, the gun cycled just fine.


Umm... sturm... you do realize that the DE is one of the very few semi-automatic pistols that absolutely meets your definition of "quality" because it is gas operated, right? You could dangle it by strings and it would cycle because it doesn't use recoil to cycle the action.

sturmgewehr
December 3, 2007, 09:53 PM
Umm, yes I do know it's gas operated. So are you saying the few gas operated pistols out there are limp wrist proof? Cool, got any proof?

How about gas delayed like the P7? Are they limp wrist proof or more prone to limp wristing in your expert opinion (I'm sure you have done your own tests to confirm your statements either way)? :D

Hawk
December 3, 2007, 09:59 PM
Umm... sturm... you do realize that the DE is one of the very few semi-automatic pistols that absolutely meets your definition of "quality" because it is gas operated, right? You could dangle it by strings and it would cycle because it doesn't use recoil to cycle the action.

Time to resurrect another thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=266825

While I agree with Mr. Ames I sure couldn't say that my take on the DE was accepted as though I was the keeper of the revealed word. Too bad, I rather liked this:
I generally turn curmudgeon when I hear "limp wrist" in general. The Desert Eagle would invoke the demon-curmudgeon faster than most. It's gas operated - if you can limp-wrist a DE, you can probably limp wrist an M-4 carbine.

Magnum Research doesn't offer much comfort:
http://www.magnumresearch.com/FAQ_deserteagle.asp
Particularly the "how to shoot" doc file.

But, as one of the curmudgeons in residence, I really don't believe any manufacturer in re: limp wrist anyway.

I am chagrined to note that my correspondent noted that holding up the mag generally causes malfs. Like they say on NPR, "this I believe".

steelyblue
December 3, 2007, 10:07 PM
Someone bring this up on the mythbusters sight!!!lol Nobody is winning this argument, however fun it may be to read.

neolithic hunter
December 3, 2007, 10:21 PM
ok girls.

it's the old limp wrist question.

have any of you shot there pistol out of a ransom rest???

the ransom rest is a true limp wrist design. when the pistol is fired it pivots from the lowest point on the weapon (ie: limp wrist) my ransom rest will allow a pistol to function as normal if it has a fast slide speed, as in most 9mm guns. it is a single shooter with 1911's of all flavors, it will take a pistol that is 100% reliable and due to the pivot point will either stove pipe the brass or not fully eject it. it will do the same with a browning highpower. if you put a walther pp, ppk, p-38, glock 19,22,23, ect,ect, a whole bunch of sigs in 9mm and 40 in it, it will allow the pistol to functions with out issue. it took me almost 6 months to get my girl friend to stop limp wristing her commander and now she has no problems with the gun. so limp wrists and firearm function, depending on the weapon, from my point of view is a real deal. :cool:

sturmgewehr
December 3, 2007, 10:24 PM
it took me almost 6 months to get my girl friend to stop limp wristing her commander and now she has no problems with the gun. so limp wrists and firearm function, depending on the weapon, from my point of view is a real deal.
Really? You mean it does happen? Gee, and here we've been saying all along no gun in the world could ever be limp wristed. Darn it. :D

Again, it helps to read the thread before responding. :p

sturmgewehr
December 3, 2007, 10:25 PM
Someone bring this up on the mythbusters sight!!!lol Nobody is winning this argument, however fun it may be to read.
I just tried and their site isn't allowing logins right now. ARGH! I'll try again later or tomorrow morning. I doubt they'll take it because no one outside of the firearms community will even know what we're talking about, but it's worth a try.

dasmi
December 3, 2007, 10:26 PM
I don't know about these videos, but I can, and have, forced my Glock to fail by holding it incredibly loosely.

steelyblue
December 3, 2007, 10:28 PM
I love that sight. I got to see them recently at HESTEC, over here at the University Of Texas Pan American. They are too cool!!!

That is the Mythbusters.

Ed Ames
December 3, 2007, 10:33 PM
I'm not saying that ANYTHING is proof against bad technique. You can crash a Boeing 757 just as hard as a DC-10. That's why I think your whole premise is illogical. All guns require proper technique to use reliably. This includes knowing what ammo to load, knowing where the safety is and how to actuate it (and I'd bet that more people have died to do "failure to disengage safety" than "limp wristing due to injuries"), and knowing what you can and cannot do and still have the gun go off. You must also know to pull the trigger, how to aim, and the fact that guns fire projectiles out the front at high speed. Without a whole bunch of knowledge it's no more useful than a brick.

Example of required knowledge: Many pistols will NOT fire if you push them into or against someone and pull the trigger. This is because of a designed-in safety interlock on the slide and trigger to prevent firing out of battery. If you push the muzzle against someone (e.g. in a close-in fight) you may put the slide out of battery far enough that it won't fire. That may be a stopper or it may just prevent follow up shots. A knowledgeable person will know to pull the gun slightly away in such a circumstance.

Think that's a quality issue? It isn't. Just a design constraint.

Another example of required knowledge: Many pistols count on the mass of the shooter's arm to augment the mass of the frame and help control the action timing. Allowing the frame to accelerate backwards excessively when fired will change the action timing and may result in failures to eject or failures to feed.

Think that is a quality issue? It isn't. It's a designed in attribute to lighten the gun because one of the primary considerations in carry guns is hanging weight.

To describe those as quality (in the good/bad sense) attributes is incorrect. To say that passing or failing a non-quality-attribute test is an indication of quality is illogical.

eldon519
December 3, 2007, 10:34 PM
sturmgewehr, I do not believe people are responding to everything that is said in the thread; I believe alot of people including myself are responding to the very matter-of-fact subtitle that says "Debunked: Limp wristing is a valid excuse for malfunctions." Regardless of what you've said in the thread, that statement alone has greater implications than your test can support. You may have changed your song through 5 pages of posts, but that statement still stands at the top of the thread.

Lew
December 3, 2007, 10:37 PM
Anyone post this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyCiw9BX43o)yet?

Wes Janson
December 3, 2007, 10:43 PM
What I don't get, Sturm, is why you have such an incredibly personal interest in arguing against limp wristing as a valid reason. You've made it your own quest in this thread to shoot down anyone who tries to claim that bad technique is an understandable reason for failure. And you've ignored every testimony, from numerous sources, that indicates that most brands of handguns can jam when held incorrectly. So once again I have to ask: what pistol out there DO you consider to be incapable of limp wristing (and therefore superior)?

sturmgewehr
December 3, 2007, 10:45 PM
All guns require proper technique to use reliably.
Really? So there are no guns that will fire and work as designed regardless of how you hold them? Right. Deal in absolutes much? :p

Hawk
December 3, 2007, 10:46 PM
Anyone post this yet?

Interesting - the XD having no problem while the M9 did have issues would seem to be exactly backwards from what some would predict.

Hard to tell from the video but there may be thumb contact on the M9 - there's an apparent attempt to use a "high loose thumb" on all the products but it seemed to start earlier with the Beretta.

sturmgewehr
December 3, 2007, 10:47 PM
Many pistols will NOT fire if you push them into or against someone and pull the trigger.
This isn't even close to being the same thing, but there are factory pistols designed to work in such a situation if you're goofy enough to pushing your pistol against someone. The Springfield XD series of pistols come to mind. :p

sturmgewehr
December 3, 2007, 10:52 PM
What I don't get, Sturm, is why you have such an incredibly personal interest in arguing against limp wristing as a valid reason. You've made it your own quest in this thread to shoot down anyone who tries to claim that bad technique is an understandable reason for failure. And you've ignored every testimony, from numerous sources, that indicates that most brands of handguns can jam when held incorrectly. So once again I have to ask: what pistol out there DO you consider to be incapable of limp wristing (and therefore superior)?
Wow.

Well, first this is a discussion board. The concept is that you think of a topic and then discuss it. You draft an opinion, float it to the group and then defend your position. Is this a new concept to you? :)

As for the notion "most" brands of handguns will malfunction based upon the users grip... well, I disagree with you. What you've offered is second hand (3rd hand or even 4th hand) anecdotal comments whereas I've offered some video (with more to come).

I've never said that some handguns can't be limp wristed. To the contrary, I know some can be. My point is that if your gun fails to feed regularly or even semi-regularly on you, that trying to excuse it away as your fault and not the guns simply doesn't fly. For a defensive arm, your pistol should work in the most adverse conditions. If you're wounded, or awakened from a deep slumber, you need to be able to count on your weapon.

As for what handgun do I personally feel is exempt from the shooters hold? I can't speak for all handguns, but I can speak for the ones I've owned and tested for years. I've tried and tried to get my favorite handguns to fail to feed based upon my hold, the position of the gun (upside down, side ways, etc.) and I have not been successful.

sturmgewehr
December 3, 2007, 11:09 PM
Hawk, I was trying to stick my thumb out because I didn't want to hold the pistol with any lateral force so that it could torque and roll as needed. So I applied no force to the pistol at all, the only thing keeping it from flipping over the web of my hand was my finger in the trigger guard. I didn't have a death grip with that single finger either, I pulled the trigger and relaxed the finger.

The Lone Haranguer
December 3, 2007, 11:12 PM
I believe it can happen, in theory, to some guns. I do not accept it as an excuse for a malfunctioning gun. And if a given handgun is susceptible to this kind of problem, it is not fit to be a defensive sidearm. How good of a grip are you going to have if you've already been injured, for example, or have to shoot from an awkward position?

sturmgewehr
December 3, 2007, 11:14 PM
To describe those as quality (in the good/bad sense) attributes is incorrect. To say that passing or failing a non-quality-attribute test is an indication of quality is illogical.
I never said it was purely an issue of "quality", I said design/quality issue. Either one can be at fault or a combination of both. A design might be sound but the execution may be flawed. To argue otherwise is illogical in my view.

sturmgewehr
December 3, 2007, 11:15 PM
I believe it can happen, in theory, to some guns. I do not accept it as an excuse for a malfunctioning gun. And if a given handgun is susceptible to this kind of problem, it is not fit to be a defensive sidearm. How good of a grip are you going to have if you've already been injured, for example, or have to shoot from an awkward position?
BINGO!

eldon519
December 3, 2007, 11:19 PM
I'm kind of surprised that so many people think that a man-made device, the handgun, should be one of the only such creations impervious to user error. It's a machine just like many other things in our lives.

Ed Ames
December 3, 2007, 11:43 PM
I never said it was purely an issue of "quality", I said design/quality issue. Either one can be at fault or a combination of both. A design might be sound but the execution may be flawed. To argue otherwise is illogical in my view.

By design issue you mean "Bad design." That is a qualitative conclusion not supported by your statements or videos.

You can't have everything. Want it lighter? Want it to cycle heaver loads without self-destructing or damaging your hand? Those requirements push the operational envelope around. If you take a design optimized for heavy (defensive) loads in a light (concealable) package the gun will be more sensitive to operator error. It's just physics. Have 100 olde worlde master gunsmiths build the highest quality pistol ever and it's still subject to the laws of physics. Spring/mass harmonics. Can't get around it. If the designer counted on the mass of the shooter for the timing of the gun to reach a design goal that's neither fault nor indication of quality. It's optimization. It's like a rudder control on an airplane... planes with rudder controls require more skill to fly but you can do more with them.

Take that optimized-for-concealed carry/combat gun and lighten the spring and you may make it totally reliable with lighter loads. Has that improved the design? By your standards the answer is yes because it is no longer limp-wristable. However, the gun may beat itself to death or fail to cycle after only a few hundred rounds of defensive ammo. Is it good design to accommodate a training deficit by limiting the ultimate effectiveness or longevity of the gun? Would the short lifespan indicate poor quality? The answer to both questions is No. A well designed defensive gun is designed for use in combat, not target shooting. It is designed for use with a certain level of training. Sacrificing ultimate effectiveness to make up for poor training or weak target ammo is bad design.

Another example might be found in aluminum framed ultralight revolvers. They have cut the longevity and controllability in order to increase the concealability. Is that bad design? No. It's real-world design where you can't have everything. Small and light means lighter materials and weaker frames and if you want that in a combat-effective cartridge you are going to reduce something. Physics. Material properties. Constants that cannot be wished around.

This has nothing to do with videos or the definition of limp wristing. It has to do with logic and the nature of design. Logically your assertions are incorrect because they insist that accommodating a particular corner case is essential to the definition of either design or quality when in fact it has nothing to do with either characteristic but instead was a considered choice on the part of a designer trying to reach certain performance goals (light weight, high power, whatever) in the real world.

Lonestar49
December 3, 2007, 11:44 PM
My eyes must be going.. I swear I'm seeing double.. :scrutiny:



Ls

Lonestar49
December 3, 2007, 11:46 PM
Quote: from OP first page: Link provided for the/his carry guns of him shooting and no Limp-wrist affects with the 4 guns listed "in order" he shot.

Here are the results:

Springfield XD 9mm
Sig Sauer P226R
Springfield 1911 TRP
Beretta Model 92

That's all I took with me today, but as you can see these weapons function as designed regardless of how they're held - just as they should.
-------------------------------------------------

Then this posters post from Lew; on the 5th page..

Quote: Anyone post this yet? (LINK provided to youtube)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyCiw9BX43o

-----------------------------------------
...

But it starts off with showing the same hand, field, guns, same video, except that the same shooter starts off laughing at what we give our service men, in an Entitled Video:

"How does the Beretta M9 handle limp wristing?"

After the Beretta M9 failures, then the "same order" and guns as the OP.

Then this video, then shows the OP's 4 guns that don't have any limp-wrist effect.. :uhoh:

What am I missing.. ??

Did the OP limp wrist the Beretta or not..?

IS this not the same video, same guns, with the exception of the M9 Beretta that fails because of limp-wristing?

And is this not the same hand, sleeve, background, same person as the OP?


My eyes must be going.. I swear I'm seeing double.. :scrutiny:



Ls

Ed Ames
December 3, 2007, 11:52 PM
The beauty of the M9 vid is that the shooter is thumbing the slide to induce failures.

sturmgewehr
December 3, 2007, 11:56 PM
Ames, not to be rude but you're babbling on with circular logic that, much like what you're accusing me of, has no application here.

Simple fact: A defensive arm should work in the most adverse of conditions.

Period.

You can ramble on about trading frame life or weight for reliability but that's not the issue for me, the military or most people concerned with surviving a lethal encounter. What matters above all else is that your gun works when you pull the trigger. Are you upside down for some reason? Your gun should work. You've been shot in the shoulder and you can't maintain a firm grip? Your gun should work. You've fallen in some soupy goop and then fired your weapon? It should work.

You can try to excuse your favorite pistols poor performance by saying, "well technically the manufacturer conducted a GAP analysis and determined that shaving X off the weight of the pistol produced an acceptable result... blah blah blah".

That's double speak for politicians.

Men in the field need one thing and one thing only, a tool that works regardless of the environment.

Those tools exist.

Lonestar49
December 4, 2007, 12:08 AM
Quote: The beauty of the M9 vid is that the shooter is thumbing the slide to induce failures.
__________________
...

Yes, Ed, it is quite different than the OP's grip and results with the other Beretta 92.

And to quote the OP again:


"Here are the results:"

Springfield XD 9mm
Sig Sauer P226R
Springfield 1911 TRP
Beretta Model 92

*** "That's all I took with me today", ("but as you can see these weapons function as designed regardless of how they're held - just as they should.")
.........

*** But that statement in its-self, is NOT true, as he ALSO took, and SHOT a Beretta M9, and as you said, helped it fail..

Can the OP explain what actually happened that day?


Ls :scrutiny:

sturmgewehr
December 4, 2007, 12:18 AM
That's a video mix that my buddy (the cameraman that day) put together. In that shot of the M9 (his) the gun had been dunked in water (which the Beretta hates) then fired. That's not the same test (my 92 was used for the other video that wasn't dunked), but he edited it into the sequence with the other handguns being fired. :rolleyes: And no, the gun wasn't failing to feed because of "thumbing" as the thumb never touched the slide. It failed to feed because it was, of all things, wet.

Beretta's are flawed in design in that they don't like water, sand or any other debris on them or in them. That's not the same issue as limp wristing obviously. Glocks on the other hand don't seem to care what you do to them... but thats another conversation.

sturmgewehr
December 4, 2007, 12:21 AM
*** But that statement in its-self, is NOT true, as he ALSO took, and SHOT a Beretta M9, and as you said, helped it fail..
If by "helped it fail" you mean dunking it in water, then yes. There were three M9's (well, two M9's and a stainless 92) in use that day. Different things were being done, throwing them in the mud, letting them sit out in the rain, etc.

Ed Ames
December 4, 2007, 12:27 AM
In response to "it had water in it" ... why is the title text: 'How does the beretta M9 handle being "limp wristed"?'

As for the rest,

Logic yes, circular no.

Let's extend this "it should work" silliness: You've disassembled your gun for cleaning and suddenly you are attacked? Your gun should work. Your hands have been chopped off? Your gun should work. You've expended all your ammo? Your gun should work. Magazine has been taken out and stepped on? Your gun should work. Yeah right. Nothing always works. You don't know how to pull the trigger? Your gun should work. Hah. Nothing always works.

Look up gap analysis. It doesn't apply here.

As for excusing ... I have only one pistol that experiences failures of this sort. It's a Luger which fails when fed the weak SAAMI-spec 9MM sold today instead of full power 9mm parabellum it was designed for. Put in a weaker recoil spring and it's happy. Feed it full pressure ammo and it's happy. Hold it very securely so that more of the recoil force is available to work the action and it is happy. Just basic physics. It was designed to operate in a particular envelope and when you depart from that envelope, either by feeding it weak ammo or by wrapping it in duct tape it will jam. Change the design (weaker spring), accommodate the problem in use (stronger hold) or return to the designed envelope (fire +P) if you want it to be reliable.

Lonestar49
December 4, 2007, 12:33 AM
Quote: Beretta's are flawed in design in that they don't like water, sand or any other debris on them or in them. That's not the same issue as limp wristing obviously. Glocks on the other hand don't seem to care what you do to them... but thats another conversation.
__________________
...

Amazing editing indeed, in that, its the same exact field, same ground, same place, same hand, same sleeve, same order of guns, with the exception of the Beretta 92 at the end, and of course, the "other video" that starts with the Beretta M9, and I Quote the title of the entire video, again:

~ How does the Beretta M9 Handle Limp-wristing? ~

Nothing being said about being "dunked in water".. as you say.

I agree, something is flawed.. :scrutiny:

Same video, same day, same everything IMO, except who really is shooting those guns, and who really owns them for CCW, etc.

This time I watched them both again with my glasses, my good ones..

And take note of where you're, or who's ever hand it really is, where his/the thumb is, most of the time, with the M9 and where the thumb is with all the other guns, in relation to the slide, even the last shot with the Beretta 92, "most of the time".. :rolleyes:


Ls

sturmgewehr
December 4, 2007, 12:34 AM
In response to "it had water in it" ... why is the title text: 'How does the beretta M9 handle being "limp wristed"?'
Try to focus, it's not my video edit. There are 4 different people in possession of the same video (and even some I don't have) that were there this weekend.


Look up gap analysis. It doesn't apply here.
You don't say! Ever heard of being "facetious"? Look it up, it applies here.

sturmgewehr
December 4, 2007, 12:36 AM
You can't be this dense. Yes, it's the same field, same hand, same day, but several different video's in the hands of 4 different people.

Let me guess, you think perhaps I'm thumbing the slide closed in the video's I posted here? Hehe. You guys will grasp for any straw you can.

sturmgewehr
December 4, 2007, 12:42 AM
And take note of where you're, or who's ever hand it really is, where his/the thumb is, most of the time, with the M9 and where the thumb is with all the other guns, in relation to the slide, even the last shot with the Beretta 92, "most of the time"..
What does that video of a different gun, same day, different circumstances have to do with the video posted here of a gun working? Let's pretend that the Beretta does fail to fire when it's not dunked in water. No one ever said a limp wrist couldn't occur, did they? Let's remove the Beretta from the equation all together. Now, grasp for your straws and explain the Sig, XD and 1911. Was someone pushing the slides closed? Was it an act of God?

You guys will cling to anything, even things that have nothing to do with the conversation, in some failed quest to some how, any way possible, validate your argument.

If you're going to derail this thread, I'll gracefully bow out until the next round... the round with the sand bags and zip ties.

Ed Ames
December 4, 2007, 12:47 AM
So you are outing your friend as misrepresenting the reliability of the M9? Have you told him how dishonest that video is?

Wait... I know what you did... you deleted it! Awesome.

Except it wasn't you who deleted it, right? It was your "friend". Who was wearing your shirt.

sturmgewehr
December 4, 2007, 12:54 AM
Yup, and it was a vast right wing conspiracy with the help of Lucus films that show guns working. Actually, they weren't even fired. They're airsoft and it's all fancy special effects.

I'll let you guys run with it now, and we'll see where this goes. Now you have a whole new tangent to run in... the airsoft/Lucus Arts tangent. Oh, and the vast right wing conspiracy tangent too.

Lonestar49
December 4, 2007, 02:03 AM
Quote: Yup, and it was a vast right wing conspiracy with the help of Lucus films that show guns working. Actually, they weren't even fired. They're airsoft and it's all fancy special effects.
.............
...

Indeed, as your vast right wing conspiracy group has magically removed the other You-tube movie (the same movie) from Lews post and mine,(for viewing) and any others that may have, or might have, taken a closer look at what is the truth about that day, and "when it was really shot", and for what real reasons.

Anything is possible, limp-wristing, faking limp-wristing, not knowing how to really limp-wrist, some guns that are more effected by little changes in physics, some more forgiving than others, yes, it's all true.

But your statements fell apart, were skewed, to be polite, and for the sake of argument, which seems to be what you have brought to this thread, along with your limitless protests of others comments that don't agree with yours.

But you, sir, said that "those were the only guns YOU brought that day", not me, and there was ANOTHER GUN there that day, being shot by the same person, with the sole purpose of showing how a Beretta M9 handled "limp-wristing", as the caption stated.. Not what you said about it being soaked all day, in water, etc., etc.

But that's right, that the, or your, You-Tube same-day-video, from page 5 has mysteriously disappeared for any other's to watch and make the same inquiries about "the truth".

I agree with you, someones right wing conspiracy people handled it.. LMAO

You brought this on, it's in your name, those were your "statements", deal with it..

Personally, I'm dis hearted that the facts have been skewed again.. :scrutiny:

Goodbye,


Ls

brentn
December 4, 2007, 02:33 AM
Doesn't look like limp wristing to me, the muzzle barely climbs in these videos.

If you want to limp wrist it, try it with two hands and a loose grip, like amatuers at the range do. You'll find that the muzzle climbs about 30-40 degrees in which that IS limp wristing.
This is when the malfunctions happen.

Try again buddy

Wes Janson
December 4, 2007, 03:14 AM
Or, how about getting someone ELSE to shoot the same exact weapons, who has been known to have limp-wristing problems with other weapons. Better yet, get several such people (or a couple dozen!).

If we accept the premise that for whatever reason you were not, in fact, limp-wristing (or let's say, for whatever reason, you are incapable of causing a user-induced malfunction), then the logical way to test that is to have other people fire the same handguns. If we use a decently large sample size of shooters and pistols, and have no problems, then we should be able to say with some degree of certainty that those particular designs are limp-wrist-proof. On the other hand, if certain testers suffer repeated malfunctions when all other conditions are held the same, then a simple statistics test of the results will be able to quite clearly determine there to be a likely link between individual shooter and malfunction.

Claiming that Ed's logic is circular because he states that handguns are subject to, and designed in accordnace with, physical laws is a pretty weak position to take.

Hawk
December 4, 2007, 10:33 AM
I’m satisfied with the "thumb / M9" notes and look forward to the wire tie results. I'd suspect there's a considerable risk of a TRP picking up a cosmetic issue or two in the enterprise and not many would be willing to put a personal arm through such an indignity.

I'm puzzled by the degree to which we seem invested in our opinions of limp wrist.

We can probably all agree that a malf is not limp wrist related if everyone has the same issues with a given firearm. In order to qualify as limp wrist, the gun must run for some shooters but not for others. There are reasons why one shooter might have individual issues other than limp wrist but at its most basic level the very least that must be observed is that the gun behaves differently for different shooters.

The above seems brutally obvious but I have witnessed several cases where someone claiming limp wrist could not make the gun run themselves. Presumably we can all agree that such cases (the gun runs for no one) simply can not be limp wrist. By extension, we can probably agree that any diagnosis of limp wrist whether over the phone, across the counter or on the internet should be, of necessity, preceded by the query "does the gun run for others?" In the absence of such a question, any diagnosis of limp wrist is intellectually lazy, is the grossest form of speculation and does a disservice to whoever is seeking a solution to his or her problem.

No one posting to this thread believes limp wrist could be the culprit if the gun doesn't run for anyone. Nevertheless, threads abound where limp wrist is a throwaway diagnosis often offered without even a superficial attempt to ascertain if the gun behaves differently for different shooters. That's my beef. Seems pretty reasonable, doesn't it?

We likely agree that some problems are misdiagnosed as limp wrist. The disagreement comes in over the degree to which this occurs. My contention is that it's greater than 90% of the time and I grant that is a minority view. Another minority opinion is that anyone in the employ of a firearms company that makes such a diagnosis over the phone without determining that the fault goes away when someone else fires the gun should be terminated on the spot. Ditto for gun shop employees.

This, admittedly, is only peripherally related to the OP but I tend to be in agreement there as well. Defensive semi autos should run in adverse conditions.

waterhouse
December 4, 2007, 11:00 AM
If a child can limp wrist a gun to the point that it stops working, is this a design flaw with the weapon or just "user error?" That seems to be what the debate is all about.

Sturm's point seems to be that limp wristing does actually happen, so posting stories about how you have seen it happen doesn't mean anything. Sturm's point is that those guns that are subject to limp wristing have "deeper issues" (in other words, they need to be fixed to the point that they stop being subject to limp wristing.) I don't know if I agree with Sturm or not, but I find the topic sort of fascinating as it comes up occasionally.

I've tried limp wristing my guns, and I've been unsuccessful, but I don't know if I was doing it correctly. I will say that I am confident in my carry guns, and if a 10 year old picked up one of my guns and started inducing stove pipes I wouldn't be overly concerned if I could not replicate the problem.

It has been pointed out by many folks in this thread that Sturm didn't actually limp wrist.

the ransom rest is a true limp wrist design. when the pistol is fired it pivots from the lowest point on the weapon (ie: limp wrist) my ransom rest will allow a pistol to function as normal if it has a fast slide speed, as in most 9mm guns. it is a single shooter with 1911's of all flavors, it will take a pistol that is 100% reliable and due to the pivot point will either stove pipe the brass or not fully eject it.

There was a video of a Springfield 1911 in the original post.

Sturm, do you by any chance have access to a ransom rest? The above quote seems to indicate that an otherwise working, reliable, well built 1911 will not cycle properly in the limp wrist designed ransom rest. That would take the human element out, so there would be no calls of "you're not limp wristing." I'd be curious to see the results.

Hokkmike
December 4, 2007, 11:09 AM
I don't know if limp writing is a phenomenon or not. I do know that my pistol shot more relaibly when I made a deliberate effort to support the shooting hand with a stiffer wrist.

It seems that somebody with a scientific mind somewhere should be able to settle this contoversy.

Hawk
December 4, 2007, 11:25 AM
Sturm, do you by any chance have access to a ransom rest? The above quote seems to indicate that an otherwise working, reliable, well built 1911 will not cycle properly in the limp wrist designed ransom rest. That would take the human element out, so there would be no calls of "you're not limp wristing." I'd be curious to see the results.

Presumably, a Ransom rest would also be far less likely to put skidmarks on one's nicely maintained TRP.

However, I'm curious if the consensus here would accept that a Ransom rest is capable of inducing limp wrist malfs in an otherwise well-running 1911. We have at least the one report here but I've not heard of 1911s routinely gagging in Ransoms. In a different thread it seemed the consensus was that a handgun limp-wristing in a Ransom adjusted per instructions was broken - deliberately left "loose" might be another matter entirely.

Instructions can be downloaded here:
http://www.ransomrest.com/RansomRest.html

Bazooka Joe71
December 4, 2007, 11:56 AM
Jeez, has this thread not run its course yet? Everyone from both sides of the argument have repeated themselves about 50 times.:rolleyes:

Until we have accurate tests on at least more(more variety) pistols, why are we even arguing?

cedjunior
December 4, 2007, 06:28 PM
My opinion, I didn't see any limp wristing in the OP videos. Sure there was a loose grip, but those guns were still stationary (vertically) long enough for the slide to build up enough momentum to cycle properly.

So why is it that a perfectly operational pistol cannot be effected by improper technique/user error? Cars that are in otherwise perfect working order can be wrapped around a guard rail due to a driver's lack of proper training/technique. Skis that are otherwise in perfect working order can end up sliding alone down a mountain due to a skiers lack of proper training/technique when he takes a tumble. What if a person using a jigsaw for the first time totally jacks up a piece of wood while cutting it? Does that mean thae jigsaw is defective because it didn't perform in the inexperienced hands identically as it would have in a carpenter's hands? Or could we chalk it up to no training, lack of proper technique?

I just don't get why its so hard to understand limp wristing. If there is not enough force holding a gun stationary (pushing against the force of recoil) to overcome the # of the recoil spring in a firearm, its not going to cycle properly. It goes both ways. If you have a gun with an #18 recoil spring, and you replace it with something crazy like say a #30 spring, whats going to happen? The force of the recoiling slide isn't going to overcome the #30 of resistance enough to make it cycle properly even if the gun is bolted down to the floor. What would solve that (besides the obvious) would be to put more force (recoil) on the slide by shooting a hotter load (or a higher caliber). Not enough force in either direction will potentially cause the gun to malfunction. If your wrists/elbows break before the amount of force needed is met, the whole gun is going to move under the force of the recoil, not just the slide.

Lets look at it another way. You have a spring that takes #18 of force to compress. Thats #18 of force in both directions. You could have an object putting 1000 pounds of force against one end of the spring, if there isn't at least 18 lbs of force on the other end, the spring is just going to push the lighter object instead of compressing. So if you're firing that gun and your wrists/elbows break before your hand can put enough force on the frame of that gun to compress the recoil spring, its not going to function properly.

BobbyQuickdraw
December 4, 2007, 07:05 PM
My opinion is I don't know what's going on in this thread, but I find it hard to believe that the US Military and Law Enforcement adopted Beretta M9 fails to fire when "wet."

Bullet
December 5, 2007, 01:43 AM
sturmgewehr
I believe that a quality firearm that's properly designed will fire and cycle no matter how you hold it.

I’ve got a 2nd generation Glock 17 that has always worked perfect for me. One time I took a girl that worked for me to “shoot a 9mm”. She had never shot before. I had heard of limp wristing but never saw it with my own eyes. Anyway I’d shoot and it would work fine but hand it to her and it would jam (stovepipe). I’d clear it and I’d shoot again and it would work fine but hand it to her and it would jam. This is the only time my G17 ever jammed. Since then I’ve tried shooting it one handed from weird angles to see if it would jam but it still worked for me. So I agree with cedjunior and believe my Glock to be a properly designed firearm.

cedjunior
If there is not enough force holding a gun stationary (pushing against the force of recoil) to overcome the # of the recoil spring in a firearm, its not going to cycle properly.

This does seem like a no brainer, but maybe it shouldn't be called limp wristing.

sturmgewehr
December 5, 2007, 11:30 PM
My opinion is I don't know what's going on in this thread, but I find it hard to believe that the US Military and Law Enforcement adopted Beretta M9 fails to fire when "wet."
This is nothing but water, the gunk you see on the gun is wet leaves, not mud. So this Model 92 (like all I've tested) will bind up when wet... and yes we adopted it as a military side arm.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Video/th_MOV00686.jpg (http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Video/?action=view&current=MOV00686.flv)

sturmgewehr
December 5, 2007, 11:43 PM
...but other handguns seem to work.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Video/th_MOV00684.jpg (http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Video/?action=view&current=MOV00684.flv)

jaysouth
December 6, 2007, 01:26 AM
Well now, its about time that some of the naysayers(advocates of 'limp wristing') post some videos showing how to do it.

When the subject comes us, I always ask somebody to show me how its done. Never seen it yet.

If your gun 'limp wrists', you had better find a defensive firearm that does not.

Let's see those videos of how to do it.

NASCAR_MAN
December 6, 2007, 12:17 PM
Sturm,

Thanks for the post of the Berretta 92. Al I ask is this...were the guns (Berretta and Glock) lubed with the same grease and/or oil?

To the rest..."Limpwristing" is no excuse for a Pistol not to cycle. For example, Self-defense situations may require you to fire while you're on the ground and in the process of getting your head Kicked in - hardly a time to worry about grip and technique.

If your gun won't fire because you are "Limp-wristing" - then get it fixed.

No excuses. You're life depends on that weapon working.

NASCAR

BrokenArrow
December 6, 2007, 12:29 PM
What we have here is a failure to communicate... ;)

All guns work, but not all guns work for everybody.

For a variety of reasons, some guns work better in some hands than others. I have seen people who have problems w some guns but not others when shot the same way at the same time w the same ammo. The guns worked fine when shot by other people...

If you have to try to hard to get a gun to work for you, try another gun.

Might not remember all those hoops ya gotta jump through when you are excited or dizzy or your hand is slippery w the mud, the blood, and the beer. ;)

Scores for the wet/dry mud test in the XM9 trials. The M1911A1 was the benchmark/reference:

M1911A1, 100%/100%
Beretta 92, 97/98
SIG P226, 98/79
HK P7M13, 99/100
S&W459, 98/96
Walther P88, fail/fail

NASCAR_MAN
December 6, 2007, 12:41 PM
BrokenArrow,

Were all the guns tested during the trials lubed the same (same oil and/or grease applied in same/similar locations)?

NASCAR

BrokenArrow
December 6, 2007, 01:12 PM
Dunno; documents I have don't go into that kind of detail.

If it's like other gummint testing I have seen, they did 'em all the same or followed the manufacturers directions (which would have had to meet gummint specs. IOW, not too finicky for mil-spec).

Jaenak
December 6, 2007, 05:44 PM
:p Gotta Breathe ... Gotta Breathe

This thread is the funniest thing I've read in quite a while! I was laughing so hard I went into coughing fits! Everyone is so set in their opinions and not willing to budge in the slightest and everyone is giving stories on how they've made this gun and that gun and the other gun malfunction do to chasing the empty with the pistol and the other people are telling the first people how what they just did isn't possible. I'm sorry but I find all this extremely funny. I tend to go by one rule in this kind of situation ... "If you can do it, it happens, if you can't do it, be thankful."

Off Topic:
Now, as long as I mentioned laughing till you can't breathe, now that I think of it, there's a story you should read that might make you do the same. The story is kinda long but worth every second it takes to finish reading it. And no it doesn't have anything to do with 1911's, limp wristing or stovepiping. Just read it, you won't be sorry.

http://www.ihos.com/steakhouse.html

sturmgewehr
December 6, 2007, 07:21 PM
I tend to go by one rule in this kind of situation ... "If you can do it, it happens, if you can't do it, be thankful."
What's funny is people who have supposedly read this thread and still haven't figured out this discussion isn't about if a weapon will malfunction due to the way a shooter holds it, we all know it can. What's being debunked here is that all auto loaders will fail if you hold them with a "limp wrist".

But the chances are if you've read 7 pages of this discussion and still haven't figured this out on your own, my explaining it one more time most likely isn't going to help.

Perhaps if you spent less time laughing and more time reading you wouldn't tickle yourself so much. :D

Bazooka Joe71
December 6, 2007, 07:40 PM
What's being debunked here is that all auto loaders will fail if you hold them with a "limp wrist".


What I am not understanding is what has been "debunked?"

Maybe if we saw video's with someone limpwristing those pistols then we might get somewhere.;)

sturmgewehr
December 6, 2007, 07:49 PM
I suspect no matter what test is done, you'll continue to claim the test is invalid.

This weekend, weather permitting, you will see videos of new tests done in different ways. When the gun(s) work I'll be looking forward to your excuses. :D

jlbraun
December 6, 2007, 07:54 PM
I suspect no matter what test is done, you'll continue to claim the test is invalid.

Indeed. That's called a non-falsifiable conclusion.

Commander Guineapig
December 6, 2007, 08:14 PM
Oh, and my beard can take the chrome off a bumper (unfortunately). I'm not too worried about my testosterone levels.
dang I envy you...

This reminds me of a story..

I was 12, and my uncle from AZ came to town, bringing the latest and greatest handgun at the time...a Glock. I seem to remember it being a .40 cal.
So, tho it's cold, off to the shooting range we go, snow be damned.
My uncle shoots it. My dad shoots it. Multiple clips.
I shoot it. Stovepipe. I don't have enough strength to work the action, so they clear it, shrug, and hand it back. BANG. Stovepipe.
They clear it again. BANG. BANG. Stovepipe. My uncle finished off the mag with no problems.
As posted by many folks on here, THE SAME PISTOL SHOT BY 2 OR 3 folks REACTS differently TO EACH PERSON.
you mean to tell me that's the gun? there's no less then a dozen such cases in this thread. Personal experience from multiple sources is hard to beat.
a few folks have touched on the idea of the gun PIVOTING from the bottom of the grip. in your vids, you hold the gun fairly high. I didn't see much recoil there...then again, I AM used to a Glock.
The concept of the PIVOT here is key I think...because a gun will not have that leverage if it is shot "just laying there".
Wanna try something? When you shoot, jerk the pistol BACK. (not up)
The idea I think, is the idea that the GUN FRAME accelerates almost as fast and far the SLIDE, (from the recoil)
thus causing the slide NOT to cycle fully. Think about it.
The basis of the autoloader is that the frame stays relatively still, while the slide moves back. If the frame moves WITH THE SLIDE the slide does not move as far in relation to the frame. Thus, the stovepipe.
Me? I'm a firm believer that some guns can be limp wristed better then others.
Why? I've done it.
I didn't limp-wrist stovepipe either of my Glocks when I had them.
Yet I stovepiped almost every shot out of my uncles. My dad and uncle didn't stovepipe a single one. Keep in mind, I was a VERY scrawny 12-year old.
That right there cannot be explained by ammo, or the firearm.
Unless you are willing to calculate the odds of one box of ammo (50) having 5-6 bad ones that only I got in a row, and somehow the rest of the shooters didn't get.
Do I think limp wristing is the only cause for a malf? heck no.
My dad's Buckmark .22 jammed like a bad mother for a while...
it HATES Federal ammo. CCI or nothing for that bad boy. I won't even suggest
that a Buckmark could be limpwristed.
What I am not understanding is what has been "debunked?"
heck, mebbe me either, but I gave it a shot too.
I won't hold my breath.
*dons flame suit*
GP

strambo
December 6, 2007, 10:02 PM
As painful (and at times amusing) as it was, I read the whole thread.

I will add a bit of anatomy to perhaps lend some clarification (or not, I'll give it a shot).:uhoh:

First off...I don't know what exact hand/wrist orientation is officially considered "limp wrist" if there even is an exact position.

Second, the wrist joint cannot be "locked" in a centered position so therefore every human shoots with their wrists "unlocked." The wrist moves all 3 possible directions a joint can (bending, twisting and rocking). The alignment in the wrist that achieves the best length-tension relationship (strongest) in the muscles that support the joint is basically in the middle of each of the 3 axes.

The wrist is only held in any position by the muscles unless it is at it's limit in one or more directions in which case ligaments and tendons will be at their limit as well.

Bringing us to your videos. Your wrist is properly aligned meaning it is in a neutral position and aligned with your ulna. So, when you fire, the recoil goes straight back through the web of your hand, to the wrist, to the ulna...then because you aren't gripping the gun and you aren't tensing your muscles, the gun gets a lot of movement after.

I would guess that "limp wristing" involves taking the joint out of proper alignment (the best length-tension relationship) so the joint (and corresponding recoil impulse) isn't aligned with the ulna.

If you tilt your wrist forward (ulnar deviation), perhaps turn it in a little (flexion) you will be out of alignment with the ulna and out of a strong muscle length-tension relationship in two directions. I would guess the odds of a "limp wrist" failure would go up drastically. This is what would happen if someone tilted their wrist down and to the left in anticipation of recoil.

Sheldon
December 6, 2007, 10:25 PM
Without reading the whole 7 pages I can tell you I have seen different people shoot the Beretta 92 FS and cause jams due to limp wristing. It may be more than just the wrist flipping though. I'm inclined to believe the way they held it might have been low on the grip which allows the firearm to torque against the hand even more. My young sons and a women were the ones I saw it happen to. Their whole forearms flew upward and you could see the gun fliupping in their hands when they shot and the gun jammed like mad while they shot. I don't see that happening in your videos, so I have to think that is a component in the malfunctions. It's not just a loose wrist, but loose elbow lock, as well as a general looseness in their entire body....typical of a novice who is not aware of how to properly grip a firearm. For an experienced shooter to try to mimick that would be difficult due to you trying to fight your instinct to shoot properly. You find a weak newbie and have them do it and I bet you'll see a different result. To fire the pistol remotely without any support on it, like the pistol lying on a piece of carpet would be interesting to see as well.

CryingWolf
December 14, 2007, 09:35 PM
This guy looks like he is limp wristing. At least something seems wrong. No failures though.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=978138488

I am still not sure if the vids I have seen on the start of this tread are limp wristing. Doesn't seem the same to me.

sniper350
December 15, 2007, 12:05 AM
What I find interesting is the 160 degree turn the original poster has made from his first posting to his next to last ..........

His first post claims:

I've held firm in the belief that if a gun doesn't, work regardless of how loosely you hold it, there's something wrong with the gun.

Now he later states :

......this discussion isn't about if a weapon will malfunction due to the way a shooter holds it, we all know it can........

I would say that's quite a turn around ......... :confused:

What the original poster wants you to look past, is the fact that a shooter can "absorb" enough energy from the weapon's recoil -- due to improper grip -- to cause a malfunction. He tries to equate a pistol barely being held in the hand, as the same action as a shooter's improper grip that absorbs energy of the recoil. Of course, these are not equal. So yes, a pistol might cycle if left freestanding { for lack of a better word } after pulling the trigger .....but that is no where near the same thing as a shooter using his hands and arms to absorb [or more accurately - redirect] the recoil energy to cause a feeding malfuction.

The only thing that this poster has proven ........... is that a semi-auto ...... when left free standing ...........may cycle itself after firing. He has NOT proven that all his pistols will cycle and feed reliably, irregardless of what a shooter does to the weapon during the Slide's blow back phase. IMHO

JF.

sig226
December 15, 2007, 07:43 AM
Intresting thread. I could shoot my G19, with slightly down powerd handloads, and the gun would run 100%, with the empties landing a few feet to my right. I hand the gun to my 10yr old son, using the same ammo, and got stovepipe after stovepipe, the empies that did eject, fall on his feet. Its all in the way you hold the gun. If you dont lock your elbow, than your arm acts like a shock absorber, causing malfunctions. All steel guns seem to have less issues. But this is just my observations.(YMMV)

A+

We get at least one shooter every week who induces failures in the Glocks we rent. The exchange goes something like this:

Bang.
&^%%$!!!!

Bang.
&*$^%$!!!

Bang.
$#%*)?>!!!

"This gun doesn't work."
"Let me try that."

Bang.
Bang.
Bang.
Bang.
Bang.
Bang.
Bang.
Bang.
Bang.
Bang.

Limpwristing could be called something else to make the action sound like it is not an insult. Rolling the pistol is more accurate and not accusatory.

In order for a semi automatic to work, the slide has to move backwards at a certain velocity in relation to the frame. The slide has to overcome its own inertia, friction with other parts, and the pressure of any springs that must be compressed. The key to this operation is not the velocity of the slide under recoil, it is the difference between the velocity of the slide and the frame under recoil.

In sturmgewehr's videos, the frame clearly meets resistance against his palm. The pistols are not rolling. Some people roll pistols by using a weak grip in their wrist, others do it in the elbow. When we get someone who keeps suffering these jams, we test the pistol to make sure it works. Once that is eliminated as a problem, the ammunition has also been tested and that leaves the shooter as the cause of the problem.

I don't like the word limpwristing because it sounds like an insult, but it's a common term and it gets used. The shooter is not resisting the rearward and upward motion of the pistol under recoil. Say that three times fast.

Once we show the shooter how to grip the thing and resist the recoil properly, the jams stop.

jon_in_wv
December 15, 2007, 10:33 AM
I agree. I don't see limp wristing in the video. I see a relaxed grip. I shoot with a very relaxed grip and have never had a problem with limp wristing even with sensitive guns like my kel tecs. His grip is loose but the gun is recoiling straight back into his palm and his wrist it solid. No limp wrist there. Take the gun OUT of alignment with your arm. Hold it from the side and let the gun twist in you hand. You may see a much different result.

mightyike
December 31, 2007, 09:31 AM
Never seen it before

My good friend took his son out to shoot....adopted stepson. Never fired a gun before. At the end of the day he was able to shoot a handgun accurately at a metal swinging target with a 45!

However, he had trouble with jams. It was somehow the way he held it or the way he let it recoil as it functioned flawlessly for my friend and I. I think this is what is called limp wrist and it had something to do with 'after the shot' recoil control....just never seen that before: age 57.

herohog
December 31, 2007, 09:39 AM
I had a new production Norinco Tokerov that shot great in my strong hand and would stovepipe in my weak hand until I learned to hold it a little firmer.

There, that should settle this for once and all... right? :banghead:

sturmgewehr
December 31, 2007, 10:15 AM
His first post claims:

Quote:
I've held firm in the belief that if a gun doesn't, work regardless of how loosely you hold it, there's something wrong with the gun.
Now he later states :

Quote:
......this discussion isn't about if a weapon will malfunction due to the way a shooter holds it, we all know it can........
I would say that's quite a turn around .........
Could we try just a little harder to twist words? LOL

1) I never said handguns can't malfunction when "limp wristed".
2) I did say that if a gun does malfunction while being limp wristed, there is something wrong with the gun and you should find one that works regardless how how you hold it.

Now, if you take both posts made above in context and not a clip of half of a sentence, there isn't any "turn around".

We know there are guns you can cause to malfunction by limp wristing, we've all seen it and I've posted video evidence of it happening before.

Jesh.

Scorpiusdeus
December 31, 2007, 11:31 AM
So far not "debunked" at all. What's next?

sturmgewehr
December 31, 2007, 11:48 AM
So you can limp wrist your P226 .40?

Shadowangel
December 31, 2007, 11:52 AM
I think limpwristing is an actual issue.. i've seen it with my 1911's AND my XD-9. I fired 2,000+ rounds through my xd without a single problem before I ever let anyone else shoot it. On a range trip with some buddies, the gun proceeded to jam and have ejection problems every few rounds when being used by the guy I loaned it to. I took it back and could fire multiple mags with zero failures, then i'd hand it back and it'd start jamming again. That's not a coincidence.

sturmgewehr
December 31, 2007, 12:54 PM
I think limpwristing is an actual issue.. i've seen it with my 1911's AND my XD-9. I fired 2,000+ rounds through my xd without a single problem before I ever let anyone else shoot it. On a range trip with some buddies, the gun proceeded to jam and have ejection problems every few rounds when being used by the guy I loaned it to. I took it back and could fire multiple mags with zero failures, then i'd hand it back and it'd start jamming again. That's not a coincidence.
Gee wiz, another one. :D

...and right here on this page in post 154 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=3963462&postcount=154)we have this.

What's funny is people who have supposedly read this thread and still haven't figured out this discussion isn't about if a weapon will malfunction due to the way a shooter holds it, we all know it can. What's being debunked here is that all auto loaders will fail if you hold them with a "limp wrist".

But the chances are if you've read 7 pages of this discussion and still haven't figured this out on your own, my explaining it one more time most likely isn't going to help. :p

Double Naught Spy
December 31, 2007, 01:32 PM
I suspect no matter what test is done, you'll continue to claim the test is invalid.

This weekend, weather permitting, you will see videos of new tests done in different ways. When the gun(s) work I'll be looking forward to your excuses.

Cool, if you show some actual limp wristing, that would be a start. Of course, that will just prove that limp wristing with your particular guns either is or is not a problem.

FYI, you have been the one making all sorts of excuses for not limp wristing, heck, for not even understanding what it is.

Given that you have already committed so much time and energy to saying limp wristing doesn't exist as a problem or doesn't exist as a problem with properly designed guns, I would not trust that you would be willing to post results contrary to what you believe. You have already told us the guns will work which indicates that your testing won't be unbiased.

sturmgewehr
December 31, 2007, 02:02 PM
Given that you have already committed so much time and energy to saying limp wristing doesn't exist as a problem or doesn't exist as a problem with properly designed guns, I would not trust that you would be willing to post results contrary to what you believe. You have already told us the guns will work which indicates that your testing won't be unbiased.
You obviously don't know me at all. But keep talking, you sound awfully enlightened.

I've already made calls to my buddies who should be off tomorrow so we can go shooting and have someone shoot video. If we go, I'll post video.

For you to call me a liar or to suggest I'm dishonest isn't very "highroad" of you by the way.

herohog
December 31, 2007, 02:14 PM
To end this crud, we need a neutral 3rd party to shoot one of your "perfect" guns and demonstrate that it is possible for the way a pistol is held to cause FTF. Pretty simple eh'? Until that happens, give it a freakin' rest dude!

wditto
December 31, 2007, 02:21 PM
methinks this gentleman's test and post has proved quite a lot about him, but not on the subject he declares

sturmgewehr
December 31, 2007, 02:26 PM
To end this crud, we need a neutral 3rd party to shoot one of your "perfect" guns and demonstrate that it is possible for the way a pistol is held to cause FTF. Pretty simple eh'? Until that happens, give it a freakin' rest dude!
I'm not the one bringing this thread back to the top "dude".

sturmgewehr
December 31, 2007, 02:31 PM
methinks this gentleman's test and post has proved quite a lot about him, but not on the subject he declares
Yes, when you don't agree with the poster, attack him personally (http://www.thehighroad.org/code-of-conduct.html). Again, very HighRoad of you.

rccola
December 31, 2007, 09:17 PM
I realize that the current discussion no longer has anything to do with the original question, but thought I'd add a link to a mildly topical video (not mine, I have a M9, not an M40). Will be interested to see if the OP can obtain a proper limp wrist with some practice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PietqS_ntc

Scorpiusdeus
January 1, 2008, 01:03 AM
So you can limp wrist your P226 .40?

I suppose I could if I wanted to, but my girlfriend did time and time again when she first started shooting. So yes, it can be done. Once this problem was pointed out to her, she firmed up her grip, problem solved.

FLA2760
January 1, 2008, 01:53 AM
Krokhus wrote, "If an attacker is on top of you trying to stab you in the face are you gonna politely ask him to step back a few paces so you can get into your Weaver stance" ? LOL. This is when my J frame gets emptied into his teeth. I am liking my revolvers better each day. I carry a G27 but I am never without my J frame BUG.

Lonestar49
January 1, 2008, 03:22 PM
Quote: Krokhus wrote, "If an attacker is on top of you trying to stab you in the face are you gonna politely ask him to step back a few paces so you can get into your Weaver stance" ? LOL.

*This is when my J frame gets emptied into his teeth. I am liking my revolvers better each day. I carry a G27 but I am never without my J frame BUG.
------------------
...

*So, if I understand this (scenario) your semi failed to shoot "just once", first round, point black, into a supposedly, one on one moment, firing your glock, or any semi, for that matter, one handed, and the one shot, point blank, in the BG's face would not do the job.

Hmmm, maybe time to load-up the P232 or the EMP down on the ole ankle, so if any of my one-handed semi shots misses at point blank range, or fails to fire the loaded-chamber first round, one handed trigger pull..

Better safe than sorry I guess.. lol, as I would agree with you on the basis that revolvers do not react to limp-wristing. As they don't understand the need for checked/supported, balanced, recoil, to be in effect in order to cycle the "next round", fully, chambered, rdy to go


Ls

sturmgewehr
January 1, 2008, 05:23 PM
Just got back from the range.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Video/th_limp_wrist_test_2_0001.jpg (http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Video/?action=view&current=limp_wrist_test_2_0001.flv)

This time, as proposed by another poster, I held the guns sideways in my hand. My wrist wasn't in the equation. I only tried to keep the guns from flipping completely out of my hand (I almost drop the Beretta as you'll see). Another thing to consider is that the guns are not only flipping up but are allowed to move backwards 6+ inches during recoil... something that wouldn't happen if you were using a proper two hand hold.

As noted by several others, the Glock absolutely will not cycle when being "limp wristed". It failed to cycle every single time.

The Beretta would fail usually once per mag, it did fail twice once. It also fired several magazines without a failure.

The others worked flawlessly including my buddies "truck gun" which is an old Colt Commander (1991A1) that literally hasn't been cleaned in 10 years. It's covered in rust and is filthy. I threw it in there expecting it to fail (it was bone dry too).

The other guns were freshly cleaned and lubed with Rem Oil. All were firing Winchester White Box.

**EDIT: Added higher quality video.

Bullet
January 1, 2008, 05:44 PM
This looks like a better test.

sturmgewehr
January 1, 2008, 06:55 PM
Here's a shot of the Sig in slow motion.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Video/th_slow_motion_sig.jpg (http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Video/?action=view&current=slow_motion_sig.flv)

Lonestar49
January 1, 2008, 08:25 PM
Quote: *This looks like a better test.
--------
...

*I agree,

Good job, and hats off to ya for enduring some cold, painful, trigger-sting..

Glad I have all 3, Beretta, Sigs, Colt, and Springfield Armory, guns.

Thanks for your second, cold, winter, efforts.. :)

A fair test of all the guns, in my view..


Ls

Scorpiusdeus
January 1, 2008, 09:27 PM
Looks interesting. Still I've seen my girlfriend limp wrist her P226 over and over again. After repeated jams and stove pipes we asked the range officer to take a look at the gun.

He picked it up and fired a full magazine, no jams or stove pipes. He told her to shoot it, she shot it, it jammed on the second round. He told us she was limp wristing. He corrected her grip, problem solved.

I've seen it with my own eyes.

Perhaps it's a particular way you hold the gun that causes the jams.

sturmgewehr
January 1, 2008, 09:44 PM
Good job, and hats off to ya for enduring some cold, painful, trigger-sting..
LOL, thanks. Yeah, not only were my hands cold but my knuckle kept getting slapped by trigger guards. I really didn't have any hold on those guns, they were free to jump around and whack me with all of their might. :D That little Commander gave it to my knuckle the worst.

outlaw450r
January 1, 2008, 10:43 PM
Was that glock compensated? If so you might want to try the testing again with the other guns being compensated.

sturmgewehr
January 1, 2008, 11:06 PM
It is compensated. It's a C model. I'll repeat the test on my standard 17 (which I've done, just not taped). The results are the same.

Anyway, here's a slowed down clip of the Glock.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Video/th_glock_slow_motion.jpg (http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Video/?action=view&current=glock_slow_motion.flv)

CountGlockula
January 1, 2008, 11:50 PM
sturmgewehr-Thanks for taking the time to demonstrate limpwristing.

I have a question regarding...of course, the Glock 17C sample. What ammo were you using? Was the recoil spring stock? How many rounds have gone out of it? Thanks.

Just wondering.

Overall, I being biased, GLOCKs actually teaches me how to be better at gripping by preventing a limpwrist.

Thanks for the vid again. That's a great demonstration!

Bazooka Joe71
January 2, 2008, 12:23 AM
MUCH better test this time buddy!;) But I bet you can get those others that fired flawless to jam with the right(I mean wrong) hold.

CryingWolf
January 2, 2008, 05:00 AM
Much better test!!! Sort of proves in the end though that "limp wristing" and or a bad grip on the pistol could introduce problems. I did note that the 1911's among others seemed to weather the bad grip. ;)

sturmgewehr
January 2, 2008, 08:15 AM
MUCH better test this time buddy! But I bet you can get those others that fired flawless to jam with the right(I mean wrong) hold.
Believe me, I tried. I fired several hundred rounds yesterday... to the point my hand is still throbbing today. :) The only way I could get them to fail I believe would be to reload some pud ammo.

Much better test!!! Sort of proves in the end though that "limp wristing" and or a bad grip on the pistol could introduce problems. I did note that the 1911's among others seemed to weather the bad grip.
We already knew limp wristing would cause malfunctions in some handguns. Now we know that the worst culprit is the Glock. It's kind of funny, the Glock handles extreme conditions like mud, snow and sand better than other pistols, but loosen your grip and the thing becomes a single shot.

45auto
January 2, 2008, 11:29 AM
Interesting, nice job.

So, anyone know or guess why Glock or others would fail?

Weight distribution/ratio of slide and frame, rail set-up, spring design or weight, etc?? Tightness of slide and frame?

Long thread, so I may have missed it but the XD "passed". So, it's not just plastic frames, flexing, steel slide combo, etc.

Again, nice job. If you bored some day, take the 1911 and increase the spring weight until, if, it fails. ;) Or if you have a really tight frame/slide fit 1911, etc. No need to video tape it...I trust you!! :D

weisse52
January 2, 2008, 01:01 PM
I hope this finally puts this to rest.

I am sure it will continue to rage on. I do not recall having a failure due to this issue, BUT, just because I can/cannot do it does not mean it can/cannot happen.

I think I will see if I can get my G17 to fail.

sturmgewehr
January 2, 2008, 01:30 PM
...an interesting article:


Limp Wristing: The New Gremlin
6-Dec-07 – 03:10 by ToddG

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen a shooter, instructor, or firearms “expert” blame a malfunction on limp wristing. Please, just stop.

Limp wristing is the gun industry’s version of gremlins. Gremlins, if you don’t know, were first “discovered” by pilots in the 1920’s. They are mischievous little mythical creatures. Every time an aircraft developed an unexplainable problem, it was blamed on a gremlin. If a plane crashed and no one knew why … a gremlin brought it down.

Well today, every time a pistol experiences a stoppage or malfunction that can’t be attributed to the ammo, certain gun companies immediately blame the shooter by saying he was “limp wristing.” It’s a catch-all that means absolutely nothing. It just pushes blame onto the shooter rather than admitting that guns sometimes malfunction.

A gun needs to work, and it needs to work particularly well when a shooter is under stress. So if there is a gun that requires a perfect grip, a gun that will only work if the shooter’s wrists are locked just right every single shot, then that is a bad gun design! Expecting a shooter to be perfect under stress is ridiculous. A gun design that requires perfect technique under stress is just as ridiculous.

We know that we won’t be perfect under stress. Our gear needs to keep working.

So the next time you or a student experiences a stoppage, don’t immediately blame the shooter. Guns malfunction. It happens. I’ve carried some of the most famously reliable guns, and they’ve had stoppages, malfunctions, parts breakages. It happens. Accept it, learn to clear the problem when it comes up, and drive on. But stop blaming gremlins.

Because either the pistol stopped working on its own, or it’s so finicky that you can’t rely on it when you’re under stress … Either way, the gun is at fault, not the shooter.

Train hard & stay safe! ToddG


Source: http://pistol-training.com/archives/82

sturmgewehr
January 2, 2008, 01:32 PM
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Video/th_colt_commander_slow_motion.jpg (http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Video/?action=view&current=colt_commander_slow_motion.flv)

I get a kick out of these slow motion videos. :D

SwampWolf
January 4, 2008, 04:13 PM
I continue to appreciate your efforts, Sturm. Though your tests are not necessarily "conclusive" (few things are), they do add to a further understanding of how (if not why) some pistols work under some conditions and some don't. While most people would agree that nothing will work in every situation, we should all endeavor to minimize known, qualitative negative factors whenever possible when we're relying on our handgun to save our lives or the life of a loved one.

I know you can't test every variant out there but I'd love to see the same tests performed on the CZ 75, the Browning "Hi-Power", the SIG 220, the S & W Military & Police, an HK USP variant and a "Third-Generation" Smith auto. I don't think that's too much to ask- after all, you started this! :)

herohog
January 4, 2008, 04:25 PM
I bet if someone supplied the guns and ammo, he'd be glad to comply.

Dobe
January 4, 2008, 04:33 PM
I haven't read the entire thread, but I applaud the effort. Is you conclusion that limp wristing is largely a fallicy, and that the Glock is too light weight?

sturmgewehr
January 4, 2008, 05:15 PM
I don't believe that limp wristing is a fallacy but I do believe it's inaccurately blamed for many malfunctions that are in fact problems with the firearm itself. Kimber is notorious for telling customers that call with issues that their problems are likely the result of limp wristing.

When someone says their new Taurus is FTF, I hear people tell them it's likely limp wristing. If you do a search for limp wristing on this forum you'll find literally thousands of hits. People blame it for their guns problems all the time.

So far I've only had consistent problems with the Glock. Every other handgun I have doesn't have this problem.

This weekend I hope to test a USP .45, S&W 5906 and a Springfield EMP (super mini-compact) and maybe a couple of other pistols. I also plan on taking my Glock 17 (non-C model) out and showing that it too has the same problem.

Dobe
January 4, 2008, 05:22 PM
Good work. I too believe limp-wristing is over used in diagnosing malfunctions. I look forward to your post this weekend.

Dobe
January 4, 2008, 05:31 PM
It would be nice, if you could get a hold of an M&P. I believe the weight should be close to that of a Glock.

CountGlockula
January 4, 2008, 05:43 PM
So far I've only had consistent problems with the Glock. Every other handgun I have doesn't have this problem.


Just like Glock teaching shooters about keeping their finger off the trigger until ready to shoot; same applicable rule applies with a loose grip on a Glock.

Dobe
January 4, 2008, 06:06 PM
And if you spend any time on GlockTalk, you will hear a lot about "must be limp-wrist'n"

sturmgewehr
January 6, 2008, 05:29 PM
I conducted a re-test of the Glock, this time using a Glock 17 (non-C / compensated model). I also fire a few rounds normally then move to the limp wrist test to prove that the gun in fact works and hasn't been tampered with as some have proposed.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Video/th_Glock_17_test.jpg (http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Video/?action=view&current=Glock_17_test.flv)

45auto
January 6, 2008, 05:47 PM
That pretty much sums it up! :D

Lonestar49
January 6, 2008, 05:53 PM
...

Without doubt..

Works with good grip, can fail without stable grip..


Ls

tnieto2004
January 7, 2008, 03:22 AM
Thank you very much for your test!! Try Kel-Tec if you get a chance.. I have seen it MANY times .. I have a P11 and I have let new shooters try it.. It ALWAYS seems to stovepipe with them..

nelson133
January 7, 2008, 05:31 AM
Can't speak for full size arms, but I have 2 Kel-Tecs, a P3-AT and a P-40, and they will malfunction without a strong grip. As above, I have let others shoot both and have seen them malfunction where they don't with me.

Fishman777
January 7, 2008, 05:35 PM
About a year or two back, I tried to limp wrist several different 9mm pistols. The only gun that I was able to induce a failure in was an XD9. I was just holding the guns really loosely. I don't think that the XD9 is unreliable because of the malfunction. I think that it was just dumb luck that the malfunction occured with the XD9. The round ejected, and the round from the magazine failed to feed into the chamber properly. I had to eject the magazine and literally force the round out with a pen.

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