Ruger 10/22 as a home-defense weapon?


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The Unknown User
December 4, 2007, 10:03 PM
After I get the proper paperwork, I'm thinking of picking out my first firearm. I'm leaning heavily towards a Ruger 10/22, as I intend to get into shooting as a cheap, enjoyable hobby with tangible results.

Translation: I want to put little holes in paper bad guys and not go broke.

But, at the same time, I recognize the necessity of being able to defend myself. Is a .22 going to work?

I hate to say it, but I always got this idea that a .22 was a "pea-shooter," and not really apt for doing much damage to anything of decent size, hence why I often read about .22s being used to hunt small animals, like squirrels, whereas you'd use a larger caliber for a deer, for example.

I guess in the worst case scenario, I just get a Remington 870 Synthetic 18" 7-shot.

So educate the new guy on .22s. :)

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Jimmie
December 4, 2007, 10:09 PM
Sharpshooters use .22s with great success. If you were one of them, you wouldn't be here asking advice from us laymen. ;)

IMHO, a .22 is inadequate for HD. If it's all you have, use a high cap mag full of top quality ammo and don't stop shooting until the threat is no longer a threat.

EHCRain10
December 4, 2007, 10:11 PM
Id have to vote for a shotgun as your HD weapon
the 22 can be deadly but it is more than likely not to be
if your worried about not being able to handle the recoil of the 12ga shotgun, go with a 20ga, at HD distances it will be just as effective and alot easier to control and learn
go with a Mossberg 500 or a Remington 870 get one with two different barrels so that you can hunt with it and then change barrels and have a good HD shotgun

cslinger
December 4, 2007, 10:13 PM
1st assuming you don't fall into one of the following your chances of home invasion are pretty low.
1-Do drugs.
2-Sell drugs.
3-Known to have large sums of cash.
4-Sleep with another man's/woman's spouse
5-Involved in any other criminal activity.

That being said a .22 would probably do you just fine but if HD is more your concern then plinking then I would suggest a nice 9x19mm handgun or carbine. The ammo is still reasonably cheap while offering a whole hell of a lot more bang if need be.

10 rounds of .22 to the face and neck would likely ruin anybody's day though. Just learn to shoot.

The Unknown User
December 4, 2007, 10:22 PM
1-Do drugs.I can't afford them. (I'm kidding--I wouldn't do them if I could afford them or not.)
2-Sell drugs.You have to have money to make money. (Again, I'm joking.)
3-Known to have large sums of cash.Hahahahahahahaha
4-Sleep with another man's/woman's spouseWomen? What is that? Can you provide a link to your source?
5-Involved in any other criminal activity.None. I'm quite proud of my clean record.

The biggest thing I want to know is whether a .22 is a weak round or not. For example, lots of rifle rounds are pretty powerful, although it seems that the lower the caliber, generally, the lower the power of it.

So is it just a misconception that a .22 is "useless"? What about in Shooter when Swagger takes out those three guys on the dock with a .22? Hollywood BS?

CU74
December 4, 2007, 10:24 PM
Rob87 - I think you have the answer in your post, (assuming you take the advice of posters #2, #3, #4). If you decide your "worst case" is more imminent, get the 870 and start saving for the 10/22, else do the reverse.

I use a 10/22 for plinking fun. I have a Mossberg pump in my bedroom.......... (I don't shoot well enough to place a .22 bullet into an eye socket at 20 paces every time, therefore I don't use anything smaller than 9mm in a handgun, .30 cal in a rifle or 20 gauge in a shotgun.)

cslinger
December 4, 2007, 10:34 PM
Yes .22 is the weakest commonly available round as far as what comes to mind at the moment.

In terms of killing power you are looking at basically a rabbit type gun. Now .22 has killed more people then any other round as far as I know but they tend to stagger around and hang on for quite a bit before they expire. .22 has also taken LOTS of dear and with the proper shot can bring them down, poachers do this all the time. (This is generally illegal, likely inhumane and NEVER should be done unless your life is on the line.)

You will be able to shoot out to about 100 yards with your 10/22 with reasonable accuracy. Your stock trigger will hold you back the most.

Again like everybody else said if you are truly looking for a one gun to have fun and act as SD I would highly suggest the afore mentioned 9x19 carbine in a rifle or a 9x19 pistol in a handgun. You basically have move up the power level exponentially and have a wide variety of ammo/bullet choices from very effective HD ammo to cheap round nosed plinking stuff.

A box of good .22 will run you about 7 bucks for 100 rounds. 9x19 plinking ammo will run you about 11-12 bucks per 100 so its not exceedingly more expensive then the decent .22 ammo. Yes you can get 500 round bricks of cheap .22 for around 12 to 15 bucks but this ammo is more likely to cycle poorly in your semi auto, not be as accurate and although fun enough to plink with I think as you become a better shot you will gravitate towards the 6-7 bucks a 100 stuff.

At any rate a .22 rifle is a blast and a Ruger 10/22 is a killer starter rifle because you can build it to your taste over time and it will teach you a lot about shooting, gun care, etc. So whether you get something more potent first or not a good .22 rifle is a MUST.

Chris

Pigspitter
December 4, 2007, 10:56 PM
I don't think that a 22 has enough energy to be used as a HD gun. If you wanted a cheap pistol go with a Nagant and shoot .32 long out of it.

brian923
December 4, 2007, 11:16 PM
police will go into a hostage situation if there is a 9MM involved. they WILL NOT enter an enviroment if theis a 22 LR present. the thing with the 22 is that it can enter your thigh, and travel upwards into your gut.

that being said, i witnessed my grandfather kill 3 deer with a 22, and have dropped coyote at 50 to 75 yards with a 22. shot placement is kean, but if you are an intruder, you will flee at the sound of any gun. and if you are hit with 10, 22 LR rounds,i am SURE you are not having a good day. i think that it would make a great home defensive round.

another good thing about 22LR is overpenitration. there is none. better chance of NOT shooting your son, daughter, and or wife in case of a fire fight. (or the neighbors)

shotguns, i believe are the best HD gun, but anything in the hands of a tranded shooter will do good. train with it, and you can overcome.

The Unknown User
December 4, 2007, 11:23 PM
Thanks guys. :)

Out of curiosity, what 9mm firearms should I consider? (I'll eventually ask for help choosing a CCW, but now's not the right time for that. :P)

deputy tom
December 4, 2007, 11:29 PM
Back when I was young and first married the hot set-up for lower income couples(like me and other married friends) was a Ruger .22 pistol loaded with CCI Stingers for HD.One of our un-married friends bought his frail Mother a .22 semi-auto rifle (either a 10/22 or nylon 66,can't remember) and loaded it with Stingers as well.While a 12ga SG might be a better HD choice you learn to get what you can when in need.10 Stingers in any area of the body has to hurt , I would think.If you have no gun at this time,I'd get the SG first and get the 10/22 as quickly as you can afterward.tom.:cool:

hobgob
December 4, 2007, 11:30 PM
i second the shotgun as a HD weapon, however even if you dont do drugs, sell them, have lots of cash or sleep with other mens wifes, there is still the chance of home invasion, one of my neighboors was held at shotgun point while his house was looted. He doesnt do drugs, doesnt sleep with other guys wives or any of that other crap. HD is about being prepared for the worst, and in that case you would want something bigger than a 22lr. I own a beretta px4 9mm, good gun, not to big, not to small, you could use it for ccw! great ergonomics, and its beretta so you know its quality, has lots of safety features which was what sold me on the brand.

Oppy
December 4, 2007, 11:44 PM
I won't speak to the knock down power of the .22...obviously less than larger cal. But better than a spoon from the kitchen drawer. But I have had my mark II for 15 years and it is a great little gun. However the first time I broke it down to clean, it was a B*TCH to put back together. I actually took it to a dealer for help.

Fast Frank
December 5, 2007, 02:52 AM
I've said this before...

I wouldn't reach past my .45 to grab a .22 when trouble is near, BUT-

If a .22 is what I have, I'm quite sure I can defend myself with it.


If you want a 10-22, get one.

It's a great way to find out if you are a "Shooter" or not.(It's not for everybody, you know)

It's also a great way to develop some gun handling skills.

If you are the kind of guy that takes to shooting, then you will get an 870 soon enough. For us "Gun Guys", no one firearm is enough.

In the mean time, have some fun!:cool:

yesit'sloaded
December 5, 2007, 03:02 AM
I shot a paper plate at 200 yards with a .22 for giggles once. I quit laughing after I counted the holes in the plate. A Stinger going out of the muzzle is a 28 grain projectile going 1600 feet per second. It will kill you dead. Placement, placement, and placement are key. I know people who hunt quail with a .22 pistol by shooting them in the head. I agree there are better things for self defense, but a .22 makes a great first gun and is still a very deadly weapon.

collateral
December 5, 2007, 03:16 AM
for a human target, yes a .22 is underpowered. Lots of people have died at the hands of a .22, but that doesnt mean it's ideal for the task.
My first rifle was a 10/22. I still have it and I love it. Its a handy little all-purpose carbine, and the ammo is dirt cheap!

If you want it for HD, get yourself one of these!
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=139904
I'd also suggest a butler creek 25 round mag. Make sure you get one with the steel lips, or break the plastic one in. The first hundred rounds or so out of my plastic lipped mags jammed up ever 2 or 3 rounds, now they work fine.

elmerfudd
December 5, 2007, 03:18 AM
A .22's not an ideal self defense weapon, but I wouldn't be too quick to write it off either. I might not be Lennox Lewis, but if I put a couple of 22 caliber holes in someone's chest first I'm pretty confident I could finish the job with my fists. Now, if the other guy's also got a gun, then I might be in trouble. Still, I'd rather have a .22 than a baseball bat, a kitchen knife or pepper spray if someone were in my house.

Sgt.Dusk
December 5, 2007, 03:21 AM
10/22 WMR could be a better bet for HD situations.

glockman19
December 5, 2007, 03:41 AM
Is a .22 going to work?
For HD/SD probably not. I'd get the 10/22 for target practice and fun but get a Remington 870 Express 12 gague shotgun for HD/SD.

chris in va
December 5, 2007, 04:29 AM
A 22 is far...far...from impotent. I've seen first hand what it can do in a BG's hands. Two shots to the head, poor guy was out in a second.

Keep in mind also the 22 has very little recoil, and follow up shots on target are pretty much guaranteed. No flinching either.

Would I pick it over say, a 45? Nope. But if it's all you have, by all means be aware it is in fact a very lethal round.

U.S.SFC_RET
December 5, 2007, 07:00 AM
Home defence round? you betchya! 1 86 year old lady shot an intruder with a 22 revolver and he couldn't get out of the door fast enough, took 6 hours of surgery to get him straight after that and then he faced trial. Most people think Pistol, Pistol, Pistol and in a sense they are right. But that 22 rifle is still a rifle. It isn't shaking in your hands like a pistol is and you are holding and pointing that rifle. Wait until you have to use a pistol under duress and you will think again all about the meaning between a pistol is a pistol and a rifle is a rifle.
I think that 10-22 can be a smarter choice for some who are not experienced when using a pistol. IMHO a pistol is to get and keep someone off of your person and a rifle away from you and off of your property. that 10-22 has that capability. I see way too much shooting from way too many people. Shotguns are great but too few use them, I advocate in using a shotgun and I advocate in the training in the use of one. If a 22 is all that you can afford than get you one then get a good pump shotgun and my vote is a remington 870.

Omaha-BeenGlockin
December 5, 2007, 07:07 AM
Hey---if a 10/22 is all you have--get some hi-cap mags and you should be ok.

Not the best choice--but certainly better than nothing.

Sgt.Dusk
December 5, 2007, 08:33 AM
Hi-cap mags and a fast trigger finger.
Shouldnt be too hard to make 5 or even 10 shots right where you want.
Only thing that may affect your accuracy is that the BG is probably moving (towards the floor) after 2 rounds.
And afterwards when using 22lr you dont have to suffer ringing ears for a month.
But...I still like shotgun better...

CZguy
December 5, 2007, 08:34 AM
Home defense round? you betcha! 1 86 year old lady shot an intruder with a 22 revolver and he couldn't get out of the door fast enough, took 6 hours of surgery to get him straight after that and then he faced trial. Most people think Pistol, Pistol, Pistol and in a sense they are right. But that 22 rifle is still a rifle. It isn't shaking in your hands like a pistol is and you are holding and pointing that rifle. Wait until you have to use a pistol under duress and you will think again all about the meaning between a pistol is a pistol and a rifle is a rifle.
I think that 10-22 can be a smarter choice for some who are not experienced when using a pistol. IMHO a pistol is to get and keep someone off of your person and a rifle away from you and off of your property. that 10-22 has that capability. I see way too much shooting from way too many people. Shotguns are great but too few use them, I advocate in using a shotgun and I advocate in the training in the use of one. If a 22 is all that you can afford than get you one then get a good pump shotgun and my vote is a remington 870.

Best advice I've heard on this subject. +1

Hey---if a 10/22 is all you have--get some hi-cap mags and you should be ok.

Just make sure that you test the hi-caps enough to know that they are 100% reliable. Most of the aftermarket ones aren't. You may be better off with a ten round factory magazine that works, rather than a twenty five rounds that fires one or two shots.

One other consideration is that the vast majority of home invasions are not in squad strength. :D

One more though, it might be difficult to convince a jury of your "peers" (read anti gun) that you needed to shoot the guy who broke in fifteen times.

mljdeckard
December 5, 2007, 01:22 PM
brian923, what the heck is this?

"police will go into a hostage situation if there is a 9MM involved. they WILL NOT enter an enviroment if theis a 22 LR present."

I am not aware of any police policy that makes this kind of distinction.

Use what you have, but if all you have is a .22 get something else.

REOIV
December 5, 2007, 01:32 PM
Virginia Tech was done with a .22 and a 9mm....

.22 LR is better than no gun, and its not like it won't hurt like crazy to get hit by it either.

Frog48
December 5, 2007, 02:15 PM
A .22 LR is certainly better than a broomstick or golf club.

SpeedAKL
December 5, 2007, 02:18 PM
It's better than nothing, but in a situation such as a home invasion you want the person incapacitated immediately. Get a shotgun, or perhaps a decent handgun. A pump-action Remington or Mossberg loaded with 00 buckshot will give them a nasty surprise.

U.S.SFC_RET
December 5, 2007, 02:30 PM
speedAKL Quoted: It's better than nothing
It's a whole hecka lot better than nothng. Especially if you use High velocity rounds that zing past 1300 FPS. Those rounds are out there. We are not talking about the slow ones. Unless the guy is totally drugged up on PCP, Heroin, Crack or just plain Bezerk you will in fact run him out the door if you don't happen to get in a good shot and drop up him. There are plenty of nothings and alot of .22 rounds that can be spent. Very, very underrated cartridge. This cartridge gets a lot of practice being shot down range being chep as it is.
Go ask the farmers for the past hundred years or so what they put down when it came to slaughtering hogs? A 45? No it was a 22 long rifle. Sure in most cases it was to stun them but remember this point, You are going to stun them alright. Don't under estimate a 22lr. Most people who flinch can shoot a 22 rifle without a problem and if trained and taught right will reach for it in a second. I fear anyone who has one pointed at me and meant to kill me with it. It's the lack of understanding of this round in particular that underrates it's capability and definitely within 30 feet. With a 22 rifle it is very hard to miss and if it is a good one, a repeater at that I would sure hate to be on the recieving side.
I grew up killing snakes, squirrels, rabbits and what not with the 22lr. They do damage and they will do damage to a BG anyday.

JohnMc
December 5, 2007, 03:00 PM
Rob87,
I see you're in MA. Isn't a long gun a whole lot easier to get in that North Eastern Liberal state?
Seems like a 12 or 20 gauge Mossberg 500 or Rem 870 is the ticket to me. The sound of racking the slide will make most intruders wet themselves, let alone the awesome amount of lead they can put out. With buckshot, you won't shoot your neighbors either.
My $0.02.

Elgin47
December 5, 2007, 03:42 PM
Great question and great answers - just to put my comments in perspective, the strongest drugs I take are for high blood pressure and arthritis; I don't sell any drugs; if I have large sums of cash it isn't known to me; I can barely handle my own wife let alone somebody else's; and I've never been caught at any criminal activity.

We have a Winchester 1300 12ga by the bed; my wife's J-frame .38+P in the nightstand (yes, she WILL pull the trigger); a 20 ga. Benneli in the other upstairs bedroom; a .270, .300 Win Mag and a .41mag handgun in the office and a 10/22 loaded with LR Stingers in the downstairs bedroom, plus a few others in the safe that are for obvious reasons less handy. In other words, we're never very far from a gun.

All that said, I believe the best home defense weapons we have are two 100 lb. German Shepherds. I agree 100% with everybody who's said it on this forum many times before me, the best way to deal with a home invasion (singles or a herd of them) is to avoid the invasive part - and the two sounds that universally strike fear into the cold hearts of BGs (except natural crazies and PCP zombies) are -A) racking a shotgun; and -B) the thunderous bark of an adult male GSD (which in our case is twice as loud and I would assume twice as scary) - or for that matter, just about any barking dog.

So, then my suggestions would depend on how you prioritize your needs/concerns - if HD is primary and recreational shooting second, buy the shotgun first and the 10/22 second; if the reverse is true then reverse the order. Either way, familiarization with any firearm and its proper/safe use is central to responsible ownership, so that should be addressed regardless of what you buy. I don't mean to sound condescending, because I've owned and used guns for 55 years and I still think about that solemn responsibility every time I go into a mini-mart with a concealed (legally) handgun.

Lots of good advice in this thread so you probably didn't need mine; I do agree that pumping ten .22LR Stingers into somebody in about 5 seconds would discourage all but the most dedicated BGs; but I still would opt for the shotgun if HD is your first concern - racking a shotgun really can be a deterrent, and because what you really want the BGs to do is LEAVE - preferably without confrontation, it's worth a try - if it doesn't work you can go to the next level - but at least you now have the BG aware that you have a shotgun, and the chances of you missing him/them have shrunk significantly.

Finally, not everybody's situation lends itself to having a dog, and not everybody likes dogs - but if you do like dogs and can properly care for one, regardless of how big it is - barking is still barking, and even BGs know that dogs can unnecessarily complicate what otherwise would be simple burglary (or robbery if personal contact is made) then you might consider that option. With a good dog, a shotgun and a 10/22 you'd be about as safe as you could reasonably expect -

Unless you're sleeping with somebody else's wife, in which case all bets are off because then even your dog will probably be ----ed at you; and your wife will be armed to the teeth; and geez, officer, how was she to know it was you sneaking through the house at 4AM....

BobbyQuickdraw
December 5, 2007, 04:12 PM
I'm just throwing my hat on the pile that's already here. While the 10/22 isn't ideal for home defense, there's nothing wrong with it as a gun.

Most places will let you have hi-cap mags in .22 because the laws usually target Centerfire ammo, not rimfire. So double check on that, but you can probably have a hi-cap.

Imagine yourself staring down the barrel of a 10/22 with a magazine extending out the bottom holding 20 or 30 or 50 rounds and some guy saying "Don't move." Do you say "Oh its just a .22" or do you stop moving? You stop moving.

And in the situation where the bad guy doesn't stop, you've got a lot of little bullets to fire as fast you feel like pulling the trigger. (Or, check local laws for the legality of making your Ruger full auto)

10 rounds of .22 anywhere on the body is a bad thing, or empty a high-cap of 20 or more into the chest, neck and face, and its game over man. Even just 1 will do the job in the right spots.

A .22LR is always a good buy.

Anteater1717
December 5, 2007, 07:56 PM
If you get more than 10 rounds into the guy, he's not getting back up.

1 round he'll be hurting and probably retreat
2-4 rounds he'll be in massive amounts of pain and any probably wont be able to fight back
5-7 probably needs immediate medical attention, and the odds aren't good
8-15 consider him dead
16 on up your wasting ammo

jlbraun
December 5, 2007, 07:59 PM
Holy crap!

A new shooter who actually listens to the advice of getting a .22LR as his first firearm?

Will wonders never cease?!?

:neener:

Don't let 'em tell you otherwise about a .22LR not being adequate for defense. I'd rather have a 10/22 over any other non-firearm weapon, and .22LR has killed more people than any other round.

silverlance
December 5, 2007, 08:17 PM
when I was a kid who couldn't afford much in the way of gun... I had only a ruger 10/22 made in the early 70s. i lived alone in a densely populated neighborhood in a studio apartment whose walls were paper thin and the door was a SINGLE sheet of plywood. i literally could have punched my way into my neighbor's apartment.

my defensive gun was the 10/22, with a single 25 round hi-cap hot lips mag. but i was and still am damn good with a 10/22. a single shot of .22LR from a carbine to the head will put you out real good. you are NOT going to be getting up and saying, "well, now i'm going to beat you up".

and if I missed? well, i had 24 more where that came from. and when THAT ran out, I still had a very nice club in my hands (someone has got to come out with a bayonet mount for the 10/22!! maybe like the m1 carbine).

Here's your shopping list:

* used 10/22 in VG to EX condition, no more than 180. walnut stock.
* 3 25 round quality magazines. break them in with 2500 rounds (see below) - about $60
* flash hider (optional)
* rear peep sight or wiliams firesight (optional)

today, I have more choices to choose from. but if i somehow had access to only a 10/22 during a home invasion, i would not hesitate to fight back with it. a 10/22 is EXTREMELY rapid fire. it is VERY low recoil. the report is SIGNIFICANTLY lower than say a 5.56. and, it is quite accurate as well.

my suggestion? get the 10/22 first. get it used. pay no more than 180 for it. there are tons of them out there. don't get the hogue stock... you can't beat someone over the head with that as easily. get one with a very nice walnut stock. get three 25rnd magazines for it. mount a red dot sight. then you'll be set.

The Unknown User
December 5, 2007, 09:55 PM
jlbraun, are you making fun of me? :P

From videos I've seen, and the advice given to people on introducing new shooters to the sport, I figured that with its:

- low recoil
- ease of operation
- accuracy

it would be:

- fun to shoot without a sore shoulder
- confidence-building, by being able to hit something and learn to shoot
- sexy (what?)

:D

twinhairdryers
December 5, 2007, 10:25 PM
and your second, could you defend yourself if needed with it? That being said, i'd have to say that one of the most fun, low cost, accurate, reliable, high volume shooters i've ever had the pleasure to shoot was my Ruger 10/22.

Get a couple 25 round hot lips mags and run 10 full loads through them without a hitch. Set one of those aside for your defense mag and practice with the others. Nearly all defense incidents involving firearms are done with less than 2 shots fired. Keep the other 23 available just in case yours is not one of them. Believe me, a 10/22 can dump a lot of rounds out on target with no recoil in a hurry.

Then, Ask anyone who has ever been killed by a 22LR if they are adequate for home defense. Someone on this post did mention that there have been more fatalities with a 22LR cal than any other. I have also read that, although it is not a fact found on any Federal database, since they generally only include LEO involved incidents or criminal murder. I have spoke with real deal sniper types, and they all choose a 22 or a 223 for their choice in a round. I think it has to do with quiet and accurate or something. Could be because there are more of them and more have been produced than any other weapon, at least in North America. The AK still has the worldwide record at 30 some million I think, but not anywhere near the US (thanks to our troops keeping them out of our back yards :).

Now, if you had stated defense as your first priority, and low cost fun shooting second, i'd get a Saiga-12 or a Glock 17 or an XD 45. They are better choices for your defense needs, as others are saying, shotty for HD, and handgun for car or walking about.

brian923
December 5, 2007, 11:02 PM
a friend of the family is a cop, and this was something that has happened to him in his years as a chicago cop. i though it was strange, but he had a tape of it. it was form 1986, on the NBC news channel. it happened right after he transfed to chicago form seatlle, washington.

SaMx
December 5, 2007, 11:08 PM
you can always get the 10/22 to learn to shoot and be able to practice for cheap. It's definitely not an ideal defensive weapon, but it's better than nothing, and you can always pick up a more appropriate gun when you have more experience under your belt.

WaltonS
December 5, 2007, 11:11 PM
The .22LR is not a negligible cartridge. Refer here (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=321419) to dispel your doubts.

mugs79
December 5, 2007, 11:13 PM
The way I see it, any piece of lead, steal or otherwise is going to make a lot of people think twice. Sure, there are no doubt a handful of bad guys out there who wouldn't flinch at a .22. There are a lot more bad guys out there that will run.

Really, anything is better than nothing. Sure, there are a lot of things a lot better than a .22. But a .22 is better than nothing.

Pigspitter
December 5, 2007, 11:22 PM
Just my 2 Cents, but I wouldn't want to get shot with a .22. It might not kill me but it would hurt real bad and might do some serious damage to organs.

WaltonS
December 5, 2007, 11:30 PM
I don't know how a rifle would feed, or if there's any problem at all, but they DO make hollow-point .22LR rounds.

logical
December 5, 2007, 11:34 PM
police will go into a hostage situation if there is a 9MM involved. they WILL NOT enter an enviroment if theis a 22 LR present. the thing with the 22 is that it can enter your thigh, and travel upwards into your gut.

What the heck are you talking about? The thing with the 9mm is it will go in one side of your brain and out the other.

jlbraun
December 5, 2007, 11:54 PM
Rob87,

I am actually making fun of myself for buying a 9mm as a first gun. :)

politicalgeek
December 6, 2007, 12:01 AM
If you are looking for cheap/inexpensive entry plus HD here is a thought:

A used bolt action .22 and a used 20 GA single shot. NEF/H&R are good bets, I found an Ithaca lever single shot for 100 bucks and change at a gun show. All in all it would probably get you set up for under 250-300 with some ammo and a few accessories. Like the tactical-cool 5 round butt cuff on my single shot that serves guard duty.

W.E.G.
December 6, 2007, 12:28 AM
I say get an M44 Nagant.

Don't look directly at the fireball when it discharges. That should provide plenty of illumination for an effective bayonet thrust.

alemonkey
December 6, 2007, 12:37 AM
+1 on the Remington 870 for HD. Nothing is going to put down a BG like a load of 00 to the torso.

That being said, I'd still get the 10/22 for your first gun and then save up for the 870. My 10/22 is the best gun I've ever owned, accurate, cheap to shoot, and pretty much the most fun you can have with your clothes on.

Timthinker
December 6, 2007, 01:06 AM
Like others here, my first firearm was a 10/22 chosen for plinking and, if necessary, self-defense. Fortunately, it was never fired in anger. Now, let me state my views on home defense with a firearm. The first and most powerful weapon is the 12 gauge shotgun. No one doubts the sheer power of this weapon when properly loaded with buckshot or slugs. Next, a semi-automatic centerfire rifle chambered for the .223 round makes good sense, but always think carefully about potential overpenetration with any firearm. Finally, I recommend a good handgun chambered for the .38 Special/.357 Magnum/9mm rounds or something larger.

So, where does this leave semi-auto .22 rimfire rifles? Obviously, the .22 long rifle or .22 Magnum rounds are not the primary or secondary choices for self-defense. Yet, these rifles allow a person to fire several rounds rapidly which can compensate for their lack of power. Should a person choose a rimfire rifle for self-defense, accurate shot placement is vital. While rimfires can-and have-served in self-defense situations, better selections are available. Please consider my advice carefully.


Timthinker

mljdeckard
December 6, 2007, 01:20 AM
I think a 10/22 is a rifle all shooters should own. The more fun a gun is to shoot, the more often you are likely to practice with it.

The ONLY time I will tell someone to use a gun of INFERIOR stopping power for their defense is if it is REALLY what they are stuck with. They can't scrape together $200 to buy a used revolver or shotgun, but they already happen to have a .22 in the house. If they are trying to decide what to buy, and they might rely on this as a defensive weapon, I will NEVER tell them to get the .22 first.

Many here are espousing the capabilities of the .22lr, asking "Would you want to get shot with one?" I think Correia said it best, something to the effect of; "I wouldn't want to get hit with cat urine either. Doesn't mean it's an effective means of self defense."

Anyone else remember this one? Watch and listen all the way to the end. It never actually says what the pistol was, but I'm going to bet you a dollar it was something smaller than a .38.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=H9zy37-_0LU

Still 2 Many Choices!?
December 6, 2007, 01:54 AM
Did I miss something, or did no one mention the fact that rim fired ammo is much more unpredictable when it comes to consistency? Not saying that I wouldn't use my 10/22 for home defense if it was all I had, but since its not, the 10/22 is far down the list of what I keep ready, " just in case".

Still 2 Many Choices?!

ArfinGreebly
December 6, 2007, 04:30 AM
My first gun was a Ruger 10/22.

For several months it was all I had.

I bought it so I could learn to shoot, learn gun handling, and have some fun.

I also realized that, although not ideal to the purpose, it would certainly serve for HD if it came to that. I didn't persuade myself that people would be intimidated looking at a rifle more than a pistol, and I didn't kid myself that it would be easy to handle a carbine in a house.

It was what I had.

After I learned to shoot and after I had some experience with gun handling, I got an M1 Carbine and a Marlin Camp 9 on the same day. The "manual of arms" for those two rifles is essentially the same as for the Ruger 10/22, and they deliver substantially more punch.

Since then, I've gained some proficiency with pistols and added another couple of rifles -- where "couple" is a .223, a .30-30, a .357 carbine, another 9mm carbine (CX4), and another pair of .22s -- well, okay, another trio of .22s.

I believe I could defend my home with anything in my gun cabinet. The small calibre stuff I shoot accurately even when firing rapidly. The bigger stuff I shoot "acceptably" (meaning I may not hit a two-inch circle, but Mr. BG is gonna hurt nonetheless). And the rifles (mostly carbines, actually) are easy and natural for me.

I'm not nearly as worried about the ability of a .22 LR rifle to ruin a bad guy's day as I am about my ability to stand my ground and do what must be done under stress.

I certainly wouldn't want to go up against a Sicilian when death is on the line.

If you're starting with a 10/22, then use it to become proficient.

When finances permit, maybe think about a 9mm carbine (Hi-Point makes a cheap but good shooter) or (for a bit more cash) a .357 carbine like the Marlin 1894. It shoots .38 special, too, so practice ammo won't break you.

Take your time. Go handle various rifles. As you get better with the .22 rifle, your grasp of what works for you will improve. You may learn that you love pump actions and hate lever guns. It has to work in your hands, so advice will only get you so far.

You know, there are other High Road members in Massachusetts. You could spend some time with one of them and answer a whole bunch of practical questions.

Just a thought.

jacobhh
December 6, 2007, 05:52 AM
I'm not nearly as worried about the ability of a .22 LR rifle to ruin a bad guy's day as I am about my ability to stand my ground and do what must be done under stress.


This is an important factor which I believe should be brought up
in these HD posts. Unless you have law enforcement or military
training and experience in armed confrontation your ability to
effectively place even 10 .22 rounds is going to be seriously
compromised.

A lot of these clowns are armed, facing him with a .22 is probably
a big mistake. A 12 ga. gives you a chance and in any case just
pointing it and racking it may solve your problem. If not, you're
not outgunned and you are much more likely to get enough lead
on target to end the contest in your favor.

salthouse
December 6, 2007, 02:40 PM
The 10/22 is one of the most flexible rifle platforms available. I bought one to teach my daughters how to shoot and do it safely. (Its also fun) Since they've grown up I keep it in a collapsable stock with a cheap laser attached. Its not my primary HD option, but I've got to believe a BG that sees that red dot on his chest is not going to be trying to figure out what the caliber is before making the next move.

Vicious-Peanut
December 6, 2007, 02:57 PM
If I were in your situation I would buy a .22LR for practice and plinking, and a Hi Point carbine for HD. They are extremely reliable, about as powerful as a .357 revolver, and can be had new for under $200. Total for both = $400, plus both are long guns and should be obtainable easily in MA.

Shawnee
December 6, 2007, 03:03 PM
Best info you've gotten so far is from Cslinger. Buy the 10/22. You'll LOVE it, and in a real HD situation it will be fine if you do your part! :cool:

U.S.SFC_RET
December 6, 2007, 09:32 PM
Jacobhh Quoted:Unless you have law enforcement or military
training and experience in armed confrontation your ability to
effectively place even 10 .22 rounds is going to be seriously
compromised.
This is why you go to the range with a purpose in mind, its not to let loose a snot load of lead all of the time, IMHO. The venerable 22 lr is a great gun to start out with, sort of the gateway drug I mean gun.;)

I am going to quote you again: Unless you have law enforcement or military training and experience in armed confrontation your ability to
effectively place even 10 .22 rounds is going to be seriously
compromised.
Most military do not have combat experienct to include myself. Combat training yes. Most of the LEOs I have seen shoot cannot shoot nowhere near as well as their departments should require them to do or enforce them to do.
It is not a secret. LEOs are not well off in the pay department. Squeezed in the middle from the top and civilians. Some of the younger ones go into the ranges and because they belong to the blue treally believe that they can shoot. I have been in the Army 20 Years and have instructed many and to see some of these come off of the streets hard headed and making the common mistakes...
We are talking the rough points that should have been smoothed out before they passed any course and put into unform much less what should be handled under duress.

borrowedtime69
December 7, 2007, 02:34 AM
a 10/22 can be used some-what useful as a home defense gun if it is configured right. my HD 10/22 has a folding Choate stock, light-pipe sites, and jungle clipped 25 round Butler Creek Steel Lips mags. if something happens, just keep pressing the trigger till the mags empty or the problem ceases being a problem.

if its all you can afford and its the only gun you have, its good for home defense, ive been there too. now i have a 20 ga pump with #3 buck and slug alternates and a Cold Steel ODA knife. best of luck - Eric

cwmcgu2
December 7, 2007, 06:58 AM
My Ruger 10/22 is my girlfriend's apartment defense gun. She won't shot any of my shotguns, so I'd rather her have it that nothing. She live alone so its important for her to have a firearm. I have my most reliable hi-cap mag loaded up for her with hp ammo (oddly its an Eagle 30 rounder that has NEVER jammed with tons of rounds though). I made her practice loading and unloading the gun over and over. She is also under instructions to keep pulling the trigger till the bg aint moving. I don't want her to put one .22 into the perp and find out the hard way it isn't enough. Plus I doubt the media could spin a cute college girl into a overzealous killer due to round count. The 10/22 isn't my first choice for her protection, but at the time being its better than pepper-spray and harsh words.

Fosbery
December 7, 2007, 08:05 AM
If you do have to use a 10/22, get yourself one of the hi-cap magazines (you can get up to 50 rounds I believe) and keep it loaded with hollowpoints. I'd suggest the drum magazine that is available - the tear-drop shaped mags are a bit unreliable but my nephew reports the drum mag as working like a charm (I've got a couple of makes of 25 and 30 rounders but no 50s).

You should be able to pick up a cheap and cheerful shotgun or handgun for a few notes so get one of those when you can afford it (beaten old side-by-side, Hi-Point etc). In fact, consider getting a shotgun instead of the Ruger - shotgun ammunition is cheap and clays are a lot of fun.

snow
December 8, 2007, 08:00 PM
I own a Remmington 597 .22lr and while I would use it for self defense if it is what I had in my hand I would prefer my .223 or 12 gauge shotgun. Mine is a new england pardner single shot. I feel very confident with this as many a homesteader has defended his home with this type of firearm. Besides I figure I use the heavy hitter first and if there are more I can back it up with the .223 or .22lr butthe lr would definitly be a backup piece.

FLORIDA KEVIN
December 8, 2007, 08:17 PM
The biggest problem with using a .22 cal rimfire for defense is that although it may deliver a wound that is ultimatly deadly , it may not imediatly stop your assailant from further hostile action ! kevin

target4fun
December 8, 2007, 09:08 PM
many people have been killed by a .22 round by many many more have been only injured, I would definately suggest a shotgun they are so cheap its foolish not to have one. I prefer 12 guage, but if you arent comfortable with it the 20, will do fine.

Pigspitter
December 8, 2007, 10:51 PM
I was watching a show on court tv where some guy used a Remington 511 to drop some lady withe two shots with solid bullets.

Kimber1911_06238
December 8, 2007, 10:55 PM
definitely not the best choice, but I'd take a .22 over nothing any day of the week. I'm sure lots of lives have been saved by .22's over the years. I remember reading about many people stopping attackers with a .22 in armed citizen columns.

That being said, buy a .22 and something bigger if you can. If not, it should do the trick until you can buy a dedicated HD firearm

Tokugawa
December 9, 2007, 01:04 PM
You might also consider a Marlin Model 60 .22 autoloader- they have a great reputation for accuracy and hold a few more rounds than a stock 1022.

The stock 1022 magazine is a square box- under pressure, and especially in darkness, it is easy to reverse it and attempt to insert it backwards. This may be a good argument for an extended magazine, as the shape is different.

The marlin would have to be stored loaded to be an effective defense weapon, as it has a tube magazine and will be slow to load.

If you are new to shooting and guns, remember this- the first thing your friends will do is pick it up, point it at someone, and pull the trigger!

Hollywood has "educated" people real well on how to negligently handle arms.

Buy the .22- the odds of needing it for defense are low, it will do the job if necessary, and you will have many years of inexpensive pleasure from shooting it.
And if the gun has reliability problems SWITCH TO A DIFFERENT AMMO! low grade ammo is the chief cause of misfires and jamming, especially with a .22.

13.45
December 9, 2007, 03:15 PM
"Is a .22 going to work?"

it could be pressed into service if nothing else was available, but a pre-planned response should include a more effective tool

pilatuspilot
December 9, 2007, 07:16 PM
My only reservation with using a rimfire for home defense is the reliability of the average semiautomatic rimfire weapon. I have a pile of .22s and I shoot .22s far more than anything else, but they also tend to jam more than anything else. No big deal when I am playing at the range, but a double feed in my 10/22 requiring me to drop the (factory) magazine is not all that uncommon. I realize that quality ammunition and a well-maintained weapon are paramount in automatic rimfire reliability but I shoot primarily CCI Stingers, Minimags, and Green Tags and I am anal about cleaning my weapons. I would still not hesitate to use a 10/22 for HD work if that was all I had. Actually, I would rather have a well broken-in 10/22 loaded with Stingers or Yellow Jackets than any .25acp or .32acp.

Rob

Javelin
December 9, 2007, 07:18 PM
Save your pennies and buy something with a little more power. If its just reliability you can go with a little S&W 642 (38 Special) for under $300. Or if wheel guns are not your thing opt for a Glock (MSRP $599).

macadore
December 9, 2007, 11:58 PM
I have had a 10/22 for many years and it has been incredibly reliable. The 10/22 with a 25 round magazine will spit out a lot of lead in a very short time. Due to the low recoil, it is also easy to keep on target under those conditions. If you are shooting at a rational person, he will probably be more concerned about the amount of firepower coming his way than the caliber, and try to run or hide. The down side to the 10/22 is that it may not have enough penetration to get into the engine room. For that reason, I would use the heaviest solid point bullets I could find. The 10/22 would not be my first choice, but I do not feel it is entirely inadequate.

Shawnee
December 10, 2007, 04:05 AM
For those who are worried about the "stopping power" of the .22 long rifle... a curious question.

Here is the scenario...

YOU have decided to break into someone's home. Late on a dark and stormy night you have donned your ski-mask, shouldered your AK-47 which has been rebarreled to .458 Winchester and converted to full-auto... and you are now carefully quietly prying the door jamb at your victim's home - and suddenly you hear a shot from inside and the glass of the door window explodes nearly in your face.... and then all is quiet.
Will you continue your attempt to invade the house or will you leave ?

I'll even grant you that - somehow - you realize the shot fired was "just" a .22 long rifle.

Stay, or Leave. What would you do ?:confused:

Squidward
December 10, 2007, 02:39 PM
In chronological order:

Crap my pants.

Check for injury

Lay down cover fire

Run away

Pigspitter
December 10, 2007, 06:07 PM
My response.
1. Walk Away from the door.
2. put muzzle of gun in the house in the general direction of the person.
3. Hold trigger until big boom stops
4. Rob the house because a 458 Winchester on full auto will kill them with the bullets or muzzle flash.

logical
December 11, 2007, 02:58 PM
So apparently, it's primary attribute is being "better than nothing".

ArmedBear
December 11, 2007, 03:28 PM
I wouldn't trust my 10/22 stovepipe-o-matic for defense against squirrels.

Rifleman 173
December 24, 2007, 02:28 AM
Rob, pick a gun. Any gun, even a 10-22 will work. THINK about what you want to do with it. THINK about the gun's limitations and its strengths. Form your tactics for your gun's strengths and weaknesses. Now THINK about your strengths and weaknesses. Incorporate what you know about yourself into your tactics.

What this all boils down to is knowing yourself, your firearms, practicing A LOT and planning ahead of trouble so that your tactics will work. High capacity magazines, like 50 rounders or 100 rounder drums, can literally make the 10-22 into a fast-firing buzzsaw. Learn to do high speed double-taps and then precision head shots. Put a Tasco scope, a lo-po system (low power 2 X 6) that has an illuminated reticle, on your 10-22 and now you have a lot of accuracy that will let you control out to about 150 yards or so. In the hands of somebody who has practiced a lot with one, a 10-22 can ruin a bad guy's day quicker than many other firearms. Sure, it may not, in some people's opinion, be the best option but it will work when nothing else is available AND if you have practiced with it. Also make sure that you have a cleaning kit for the rifle. And stay away from super fast (zinger type) or super slow (sub-sonic) ammunition because that's specialty stuff that may not properly work in your rifle. You want nice, standard middle-of-the-road ammo that you can buy in bricks (500 round lots or boxes of ammo) for about $10 to $15 each. Now go have some fun.

The Unknown User
December 24, 2007, 03:12 AM
I didn't think this thread was still going! Thanks for the responses. I didn't think a 10/22 would be much of a HD/SD gun, but it's better than nothing.

Plus I doubt the media could spin a cute college girl into a overzealous killer due to round count.You don't watch the news very often, do you? :)

mr.trooper
December 25, 2007, 08:59 PM
A box of good .22 will run you about 7 bucks for 100 rounds. 9x19 plinking ammo will run you about 11-12 bucks per 100 so its not exceedingly more expensive then the decent .22 ammo. Yes you can get 500 round bricks of cheap .22 for around 12 to 15 bucks but this ammo is more likely to cycle poorly in your semi auto, not be as accurate and although fun enough to plink with I think as you become a better shot you will gravitate towards the 6-7 bucks a 100 stuff.

Try $6 for 100 Mini mags, and $11-12 for 50 rounds of 9mm, not 100. That IS the plinking stuff. the defensive 9mm is more like $15-18 for 50.

Walmart sells 10/22 NEW for $182

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v333/mrtrooper/humanchestcavityP22penetration.jpg

i took the liberty of taking the penetration of various 22lr rounds in balistic gelatin FROM A HANDGUN, cutting them in HALF and plotting them over a cross section of a human torso.

I carry my Walther P-22 as my CCW piece. I would use my 10/22 for HD, and i wouldn't feel under gunned with the factory 10 round magazine.

41magsnub
December 25, 2007, 09:27 PM
As others have said, of the guns I have it would be far from the first choice but I would not feel underarmed with a 10/22 with 25 stingers in it.

TAB
December 25, 2007, 09:32 PM
While a 10/22 is not my 1st choice, I would not feel "under gunned" with one.


10 shots as fast as I could pull the trigger with almost no recoil.

jonmerritt
December 25, 2007, 10:25 PM
A 22lr will stop an intruder, 1 shot. that is from experiance. and that was from a revolver, less velocity than a rifle. But at close range, in the house, not much differance. A 22 mag will do the same. You don't have to blow a big hole in the guy to stop them. I don't mean injure them and scare them off, I mean stop them period. Learn to use what you can afford, and be proficiant with it. A 22lr pistol will make an intruder very nervous, if they see you pointing it at them. From their position, it looks like a small cannon. A 12 ga shotgun, they will urinate and crap themselves at the same time, because they know at that split very split second, there life is over. It's a matter of personal choice and affordability, and proficiancy. If you have a .45 pistol and miss your practice targets, than it won't be good for much more than waking up the neighbors when your house gets invaded.

KBintheSLC
December 26, 2007, 03:43 PM
I think that the 10/22 is a great weapon. Just don't expect any 1 shot drops. If you have to shoot, just unload the entire 10 round factory mag into your target... they will fall. I can't get 100% reliability with anything but... stock factory mags and top quality, high velocity ammo. For home defense I would use CCI Velocitors or Mini Mags/Stingers. Avoid cheap bulk ammo for SD/HD.

And yes... the 870 12ga would work better.

yenchisks
December 27, 2007, 12:04 AM
I see alot of 10/22 10/22, well what about the marlin m60 its a great first gun.:)@ half the cost

Timthinker
December 27, 2007, 06:28 AM
If someone intends upon purchasing a high capacity magazine for a 10/22, then check its reliability. Some years ago, before high capacity magazines were banned for a few years, there were reports that some of these clips did not feed well in Rugers. I owned a pre-ban magazine and experienced no problems. What the situation is today, I can not say with certainty. My advice is to test your magazines on the range to insure their proper functioning. I hope this helps.

Although I favor a larger caliber weapon, a "banana clip" with 25 rounds of .22lr ammo is nothing to take lightly. In addition, many accessories are made for the 10/22 which can improve its functioning and appearance. Good luck with your rifle.


Timthinker

Moonclip
December 27, 2007, 07:14 AM
Not ideal but will probably do with practice and good shot placement. I have used a Nylon 66 and a S&W mod 63 as defensive pieces a couple of times but something I would not do if I have a choice generally.

The higher capacity 10/22 mags can be a bit less unreliable also. What ammo do you all think would be best for a defensive .22lr?

As for reasons to fear a home invasion one was not listed, people knowing you own a lot of firearms, be careful out there.

As for drugs I don't like to do them and most the people I do know that do them are loser potheads with their dimebags of "stress", not likely home invasion canidates:)

As for sleeping with other peoples spouses/gf/bf no comment but I'm surprised that not even more people are killed over this,it's very common it seems that people cheat on their significant other. Crimes of passion and all...

I wish I had enough cash that I was worried about home invasions.

WeedWhacker
December 27, 2007, 09:22 AM
Check ANY weapon intended for self-defense for reliability before putting any trust in it.

My 10/22 was a jam-o-matic until I stopped using one particular brand of ammo and replaced the extractor with a better third-party one.

Dave Markowitz
December 27, 2007, 10:32 AM
A 10/22 is a viable home defense weapon, if not the ideal one.

Keep it simple, don't go crazy accessorizing it if you're going to use it for HD. (Adding accessories can come later once you get something better suited for HD.) There are a few accessories that could be beneficial:

1. A clamp-on weapon light. Most HD situations occur at night and target ID is paramount.

2. Williams Firesight front sight. It's a fiber optic bead that captures ambient light and makes it much more visible. I would avoid a scope or even an inexpensive red dot sight for a defensive gun. A scope's magnification reduces your field of view and slows target acquisition. A cheap red dot make break, the battery may die, or you may forget to turn it on in a SD situation. A peep rear sight coupled with a Firesight bead up front will give you fast target acquisition but good precision as well.

3. RELIABLE 25 round mags. Generally, Ruger 10 rounders are the most reliable but Butler Creek Hot Lips and Steel Lips mags can be very reliable. You'll need to try them in your rifle. Don't rely on any mags until you've put a hundred rounds through them, though.

For SD ammo, avoid the cheap bulk pack stuff. It's often not reliable enough in either functioning the weapon and will have a greater number of duds. My first choice for .22 LR SD ammo would be CCI Mini Mag SOLIDS. .22 LR has marginal penetration so I wouldn't use hollow points. CCI Mini Mag ammo is very high quality. I've shot a lot of it, never had a malfunction in various semiauto .22s, and never had one that was a dud. Mini Mags are more expensive than the bulk packs, so use the latter for practice.

Aedrick
January 4, 2008, 05:23 PM
Yes 10/22 is a great HD weapon. Extremely accurate within 25 yards without any optics and you can easily nail the guy right in the forehead. And it certainly is strong enough to take down a man. I mean, you guys all read about that 5 yr old taking down a bear with a youth rifle, right? That's just a shorter rifle with 22. It's good enough for a 450lb bear, you can definitely take down a punk in your house.

Aedrick
January 4, 2008, 05:24 PM
Oh i forgot to mention. I'm a strong opponent of a shotgun for HD. I get that shotgun is a great weapon, but can you imagine cleaning up the mess afterwards? why go with the messy way when you can go with a cleaner way with just as reliable results.

JKimball
January 4, 2008, 07:14 PM
If you decide a 10/22 isn't the ticket, get a shotgun before you get a 9mm. They are generally less expensive and more versatile (skeet, hunting, HD), not to mention more effective. But you may as well plan on getting them all eventually.;)

FMJMIKE
January 4, 2008, 07:32 PM
I would rather have a reliable 10/22 than a AR-15 for inside the house shooting. Heck yes...........If you want to use a 10/22...Go for it......(AR-15 muzzle blast is hellacious inside a house) I will stick with my M1 Carbine though.....;)

roscoe
January 5, 2008, 03:56 AM
Get the Aquila 60-grain subsonic ammo. It is a real penetrator, for .22lr, and it is quiet. It is a short-range round because of the slower velocity, but for home defense it would be the ticket.

cornman
January 5, 2008, 09:01 AM
.22 is fine and you will recover from firing it indoors. I shudder to thing of ever firing anything more than a .22 rife indoors without hearing protection.

RockyMtnTactical
January 5, 2008, 03:42 PM
It'd be better than a sharp stick, but it would probably be the last of my long guns I would grab for a HD situation...

A couple advantages you'd have though is a fast rate of fire and virtually no recoil... so pull the trigger as fast as you can until the threat is eliminated.

PAOPuke
January 5, 2008, 04:00 PM
Beats nothing, but you can get a good, used ex-cop shotgun purty cheap, they tend to have "low milage". I got an ex-police Mossberg 500 for under $200.00. That & Remington Low Recoil #4 Buck is my goblin repellent at the house.

verb0s
January 6, 2008, 01:46 AM
As long as people can feel pain and understand when its time to retreat, any gun will do the job. Even an air rifle. Unless the attacker is psychotic, hopped up on drugs, or very, very drunk, any gun will do the job. Of course, an air gun is horribly indequet for HD/SD.

If you have small budget, like I am, there is definitely nothing wrong with a 10/22.
Hell, I don't even have a 10/22. I had $175 for a beginner rifle (this includes all the taxes and strings attached), and I bought a Marlin bolt-action becasue it fit my budget. And I can definitely tell you that a .22 round (even the subsonic ones) are not 'peashooter' rounds. I've found them going thru 1/8" steel at 25 yards, or thru several 2x4's at 50 yards.

.22lr is cheap and plentiful. Walmart sells bricks of 550 Federal High Velocity at 9.90$. The downside is a dud every 80-100 rounds. Other brands are slightly more expensive, at most no more than 19$ per brick of 525. Federal is what I usually use becasue its cheap. Others brand, duds are rare.

With a .22, first, its easier on your ears, especially indoors. Gunshots from a larger rifle or shotgun is super-amplified indoors or in small areas.
The second thing is that there is little chance of hitting your neighbors (other people in your house is something else).
And third, a larger magazine (if you can) plus a quick trigger finger makes up the lack of power with the large quantity of shots fired.

Low in recoil and cheap to practice with, a 10/22 is fine for HD/SD. However, if you do have the money, a shotgun (even a small caliber) or a handgun is better suited for the role. A larger caliber rifle is a poor choice because the chances of hitting your neighobrs or other people. I have an SKS. First, I'd defintely shatter my eardrum if I shot that indoors. Second, if I hit my attacker, it'll go right thru him, a wall and its out in the street. Adn third, if I missed, theres about 6 sheets of 3/8" wood and some fiberglass insulation between me and my neighbors.

If you do intend to use a 10/22 for SD/HD, load up on CCI Stinger and large magazine sizes. Stinger has the most power and no increase in recoil.

Big Boomer
January 6, 2008, 02:31 AM
well as long as it is clean, well oiled, with the receiver being wiped down so it doesn't foul the ammo you should be good to go. Just don't use the cheap bulk packs.

Use something like the CCI stingers or such. I can put about 15 rounds downrange with my 10/22 as fast as I can get one well placed round off with my 12 Gauge. So for about the same amount of lead down range in the same amount of time till the next shot, it's not too shabby. Just make sure it runs well.

I see nothing wrong with it at all.

Ignition Override
January 6, 2008, 02:35 AM
Very interesting topic. Wish I had time to read all of the comments.

Rob 87:

If you can find some public/private land (permission to use on private) just hang a tree branch just above some water in front of a 7-foot mud bank and trees behind it.
Take string or wire in order to hang a large, empty white Tropicana orange juice jug about a foot above the water. You have a fairly good idea where the bullets impact because of how the jug wobbles or rotates. Empty jugs give you instant feedback, even with my ancient .22 single-shot Savage. It works pretty well.:)
If you prefer a boring paper target, then ok.

The gun stores sometimes sell a new type of small orange or bright green targets which make it easier to spot each new round, compared to normal paper targets. The bullets reportedly make a larger hole or torn spot on these, better seen from a distance.

FMJ Mike:

Maybe you received this question from me weeks ago, about some .30 carbine rounds not autoloading into the chamber of my brand-new Kahr carbine. This happened with about 8 boxes of Rem. ammo since I bought it about 8 weeks ago. Out of each group of 4-six rounds,the bolt must be pulled back in order to hook the shell. The round sits there at an angle at the top of the magazine. Keep in mind, my entire background until recently is with my bolt-action .22.

The gun is in the store where I bought it. The gunsmith has had it for about 2 weeks with no word. Different people say it needs to be broken in or the mag oiled, maybe a new spring. All parts have been cleaned and oiled after each day of shooting, and nothing left in the magazine. Also, the experienced older gunsmith is an independent contractor. He only works there and locks up his workroom when gone. He wondered whether the gun needs 'a hotter load'. It is normal Rem. copper jacketed ammo, 110-grain. Shouldn't any normal short magazine almost always autoload with no hang-ups? The mag. came with the gun.
Thanks for any tips out there.

MrCleanOK
January 6, 2008, 03:20 AM
I used to be in with the ".22 is inadequate for self defense" crowd. . . then I bought a Ruger 10/22 and started shooting it. Yes, .22LR is an underpowered cartridge compared to almost anything else. But, it's still a little chunk of lead moving really, really fast. In less than three seconds I can turn a 10-round factory magazine into a group of about four or five inches at ten yards. If the Ruger was all I had for home defense, I definitely wouldn't turn my nose up at it. I'd feel even better about it with a RELIABLE high capacity magazine. Think of .22LR as time-release buck shot ;)

Corelogik
January 6, 2008, 07:50 AM
Want proof of the .22's power to injure seriously? Set a soda bottle out at 15 yards and shoot it with a HP .22, note what happens.

If all I had was the 10/22 I would trust my life to it. I got the Tactical Innovations mags for mine. They are adjustable and steel lipped and have worked flawlessly with only minor adjustment. I have 3 of them, one in the rifle and two in pouches in it's bag.

If you put enough of them into the BG it is the same as having shot them with a shotgun, multiple little holes in sensitive places.

All that being said I have my 9mm carbine (Kel-Tec Sub2000) by the bed because I have one and why not use a more powerful round since I have it. My back up is a 10/22 with a full 25 round mag in it, sitting ready in the closet.

M110
January 6, 2008, 06:48 PM
I'm sure that when that young, overzealous anti-gun DA decides to prosecute you for putting 2 rounds of .22 in the bad guy front, and 10+ rounds into his back, and any other body part you happen to hit, because your scared ****less and are peaking on your adrenalin rush. And you keep pulling that trigger on that 25 round mag you just had to have. and the DA will use that high round mag against you.

Yes, you were only defending your self in your on home, but that wont stop that anti DA from making your life a living hell defending your actions. And that anti DA doesnt give 2 ****s if he makes you go into debt doing so. His coffers are far deeper than yours.


Yes I realized the type of people who browse these this forum... *from my cold dead hands* LOL, but there are other aspects of HD you should consider, depending on what part of the country your from.


10/22 for plinking/training, and a good cheap shotty for HD, at least till your get some experience under your belt. Then you can make a more informed decision on your own capabilities.


No I didn't read the whole tread, so if some one else pointed out something similar, excuse please. :)

grimjaw
January 6, 2008, 07:05 PM
I'd take .22LR out of a RIFLE over a pistol without reservation, and .22LR over a rifle cartridge in my present situation (surrounded on both sides, front, back, and below by other apartment residents and relatively thin barriers). Overpenetration is a BIG concern here.

CCI Velocitors would be my choice for ammo.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/CCI%20Velocitor%2040%20grain%20Gold%20Dot%20JHP.html

jm

Ignition Override
January 7, 2008, 01:32 AM
Corelogik:

A guy on a totally unrelated website described the deterrence of young punks seeing his AR-15 (let's substitute a .22 rifle, Mini or my M-1 Carbine etc).

He was told that some teenage punk "gangbangers" had followed and harassed his kid while enroute to his home from a public school in the Dallas area a few years ago.
The guy's kid had pedaled a bicycle, the macho kids were in a car, parked by his house.

He claimed that he carried his AR- 15 out near the street and told the punks what would happen if they ever bothered his kid again. The gangster-types seem to have been impressed by the sight of his rifle :uhoh:, if I remember the story correctly.
Too bad the guy and his family had to live in such an area.

PilatusPilot: You fly and/or own a fine machine-whether the Porter, designed for Swiss glaciers and used throughout Laos for Air America (Bird Air & Intermountain also?), or the PC-6/7 etc.
The AF and Navy chose the Pilatus T-6 II years ago. I know a guy (AFRES IP at Columbus) who recently transitioned from the Tweet to the Pilatus and likes it.

mattmacklind
January 7, 2008, 02:30 AM
I have a P22 pistol, and while I wouldn't reach for it first if something was up I wouldn't feel inadequately prepared. I'd rather have my 92FS with +P hollow points, but I shoot both pistols regularly and would feel comfortable with either. It seems to me a rifle might be a little cumbersome indoors but it would keep a little more space between you and a perp.

Run&Shoot
January 7, 2008, 05:45 AM
+1 on the centerfire carbines. I think a Marlin .357 lever action, or a Hi-Ppoint 9mm carbine would be great for plinking as well as home defense. My first rifle was an old Winchester 94 in .30-30 (OK, .30 WCF). It is handy, plenty accurate to 100 yds. and has plenty of firepower for self defense. Plus, the lever action is a reliable, time proven action and centerfire cartridge such as the .357 are much less liekly to mis-fire as some .22 LR ammo is.

Corelogik
January 7, 2008, 01:01 PM
Ignition_Override

Corelogik:

A guy on a totally unrelated website described the deterrence of young punks seeing his AR-15 (let's substitute a .22 rifle, Mini or my M-1 Carbine etc).

He was told that some teenage punk "gangbangers" had followed and harassed his kid while enroute to his home from a public school in the Dallas area a few years ago.
The guy's kid had pedaled a bicycle, the macho kids were in a car, parked by his house.

He claimed that he carried his AR- 15 out near the street and told the punks what would happen if they ever bothered his kid again. The gangster-types seem to have been impressed by the sight of his rifle , if I remember the story correctly.
Too bad the guy and his family had to live in such an area.

I never said it was ideal. If you have a ore powerful weapon at hand, by all means use it, I do. All I was saying was that I wouldn't feel totally defenseless with my 10/22. The .22 should not be discounted out of hand, especially if it is all you have. It can and does do some nasty things when launched down range at high speed.

Ignition Override
January 7, 2008, 09:28 PM
Corelogik:

My comments were intended only to point out that the sight of a gun-maybe any real gun- can quickly change one's thinking. Others have had really interesting results pulling up a shirt to clearly expose a holstered handgun. I still know little about guns, but am trying to play quick catch up after decades of despondence/lack of interest regarding an assumption on my part about something, about which I was a bit mistaken (a local Deputy enlightened me). My interest is plinking and a possible self-defense weapon for that one-in-a-million disaster/'civil insurrection'.

My friend's AR-15 is interesting. Otherwise have so far fired almost nothing except for a few pistols, a buddy's shotgun plus my ancient .22 Savage and new Kahr M-1 carbine (so far not reliable for the price I paid...), and am hoping that my brother stores his Lee-Enfield in our house for a while :).
All Rugers look like fun, but am curious about recoil of the Mini .223 and Mini 7.62 (same ammo as AK-47 etc).

jgo296
February 15, 2008, 03:37 PM
i guess ill disagree i think the 10/22 would be very effective for defense
even with the stock 10 round you can place them all very quickly there is almost no kick the 22lr from a carbine will penetrate into vitals and through the skull
advise get the zinc coated bullets (easier to clean your bore)

conw
February 15, 2008, 03:48 PM
A .22 rifle is an awesome and fun gun to have, but it isn't really a practical choice for HD.

The cost of a 10/22, I believe, is about 180-300, depending on whether you get it used, etc.

The cost of a viable HD gun, like a Hi Point 9mm carbine (which I have shot plenty, own, and stand by - it won't win a beauty contest and it isn't a battering ram, but it WORKS), is about $200. I also just got my dad a shotgun for $210. It's a 20 gauge Mossberg 500, 26" barrel, wood stock. That's a workhorse gun, it's long enough to have fun with and powerful enough to do double duty as HD. He isn't going to be clearing the house, so I don't think he has to worry about the longer barrel.

I realize that 12 gauge and 9mm ammo are more expensive than .22 ammo, but there are way too many IFs about 22s.

-Very unlikely to stop as suddenly, compared to a higher caliber round
-Multiple shot placement is a must...IF you can get multiple accurate shots
-Might work...IF the rim cartridge happens to work as intended. I've had a lot of ammo related malfunctions shooting .22, versus very few with 9mm. And this is with cheap .22 ammo, given, but it's also using cheap .22 9mm practice ammo. Rimfire anecdotally as well as statistically just isn't as reliable as centerfire.

There is really no reason to limit yourself to that gun, when for the same price you can get the ultimate HD weapon (a shotgun) or something that works much better than the 10/22 and is reasonably cheap for plinking (hi point carbine).

conw
February 15, 2008, 03:50 PM
Oh yeah, as far as everyone saying "VA tech shooter used .22" or "I wouldn't wanna get shot by one"...we're talking about DEFENSIVE action here, which requires a more profound effect than offensive action.

Our goal isn't to scare, maim, or slowly kill the attacker; it's to stop him and to keep him from hurting us. You can shoot a home invader with a .22 and scare the heck out of him, maiming him for life, or even killing him 1-60 minutes after the shot lands...but do you think that's gonna help you protect yourself as well as something that is more likely to instantly kill or cause a crippling wound?

BTW, I'm not saying I would want to get shot by a .22, or that it is worse than nothing, or than 9mm or a 12/20 gauge shotgun round is a death laser. But, just like I'd rather have a .22 than nothing, I'd rather have a more powerful caliber than I would a .22.

benEzra
February 15, 2008, 04:10 PM
Do you have any silly restrictions on rifle magazine capacities in MA? If not, a 25-round magazine would be a Very Good Thing, if you test it well for reliability.

My personal choice for ammunition would be CCI Stinger or CCI Velocitor. Practice a lot, and a Tasco ProPoint or other large red-dot sight might help in the shot placement department.

H2O MAN
February 15, 2008, 04:41 PM
I have a 10/22 set up for HD.

Since ammo is the key to an effective 10/22 HD rifle I contacted CCI with this question:

"What is the BEST ammo for a 16.0" Ruger 10/22 tasked with in-home
defense?

What I mean by BEST: Reliable and hard hitting with excellent accuracy
inside 30 feet."

CCI's response:

"I would go with Velocitor, part # 47 because it will go faster in a 16"
barrel than anything other 40 gr 22 LR CCI has, the bullet will expand
and penetrate deeply. Make sure the gun feeds and ejects properly with
this round (this goes with any 22 made by any company) before using it
for such a serious purpose. Keep the gun clean and lightly oil only the
trigger group and bolt body. Keep the magazine clean and dry. Keep the
barrel and chamber clean and dry."

HTH ~

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