Guns that will/won't run if they get dirty


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JJE
December 5, 2007, 01:19 PM
My latest semi-auto, and the only one I've been shooting lately, is a S&W/Walther PPK/S, which I am mostly happy with, although it has some rough spots. I broke it in with 300 rounds of Blazer Brass, and then have shot about 300 rounds of mild handloads. This was spread over at least 5 range sessions. Lots of people say that the PPK design needs to be well lubricated to operate properly, so I never let it go past 200 rounds without wiping the barrel, chamber, frame and rails and lubing it. I've never had a failure to feed, extract or eject. I've had 3 failures to fire - the first time I just pulled the trigger again and the round fired and I didn't try to figure out the cause. The next 2 times, I looked over the gun and it appeared that the slide hadn't gone fully back into battery, which prevented the round from firing. I'm still figuring this gun out, but based on when the FTFs happened, it may be that a combination of wimpy handloads and accumulating grime over 100-200 rounds may lead to sluggish slide movement and a FTF.

My other semi-autos are a Glock 19, a CZ P01 and a Browning Buckmark 22. I assume the G19 and P01 will run dirty since they are service pistols and generally considered to be very reliable (I never let mine get dirty enough to find out). I've run several hundred rounds through the Buckmark without cleaning, so it seems like a dirt-resistant design.

What are your experiences? I'm not talking about torture-testing, just normal grime accumulation from shooting. What designs/models have you found to be dirt-resistant, and which ones will start to malfunction after a box or two of ammo?

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19-3Ben
December 5, 2007, 01:24 PM
My Sig P232 is perfectly reliable so long as I keep it pretty clean. After about 200 rounds I will just wipe down the feed ramp, chamber, and rails. Nothing detailed. Then it runs perfectly. But once I hit around 250 rounds the ammo starts nose-diving down into the feed ramp during feed from the mag.

the naked prophet
December 5, 2007, 01:36 PM
These are just my guns and my experiences:

Guns that run indefinitely
- Glock 19, 9mm, over 1500 rounds with no cleaning or lube
- Beretta Neos, .22LR, over 6000 rounds with no cleaning or lube


Guns that eventually choke
- Beretta M1934 Italian Air Force model, .380, after about 150-200 rounds it will not go completely into battery (the hammer will fall and push the slide into battery, then cocking the hammer and pulling the trigger will fire the gun)
- Colt Officer's 1911A1 Series 80, .45 ACP, after about 75-100 rounds, the extractor stops grabbing the empty out of the chamber which results in double feeds.
- S&W M&P compact, .40 S&W, after 150-200 rounds the slide doesn't have enough momentum to load a cartridge and return to full lockup but the falling striker is enough to push it into battery, the ejected unfired round will have a very light off-center dimple on the primer and will fire normally if reloaded into a mag.
- Browning Hi-Power, .40 S&W, after about 70 rounds of Federal American Eagle the trigger was so gunked up with black crud that it wouldn't return to the forward position, this has not happened with any other ammo, even after about 2000 rounds of Win white box which is fairly dirty. This was the only malfunction, ever, except when I loaded a round backwards into the mag when under simulated fire in a training combat simulator having not brought enough magazines!


Don't know:
- Kel-Tec P3AT, .380, never fired more than 200 without cleaning (it's a carry often, shoot little gun with a finite frame life due to the small size and lightweight materials - I practice often but very little, and clean it often)
- Kel-Tec P11, 9mm, never fired more than 200 without cleaning (same reason as above, before I traded it for a Taurus .38 snub)


Just realized my wife has more pistols than I do.

JJE
December 5, 2007, 02:09 PM
Very interesting prophet - Your experience with the Beretta .380 sounds exactly like what I've seen with the PPK/S.

Lonestar49
December 5, 2007, 02:38 PM
Quote: My Sig P232 is perfectly reliable so long as I keep it pretty clean. After about 200 rounds I will just wipe down the feed ramp, chamber, and rails. Nothing detailed. Then it runs perfectly. But once I hit around 250 rounds the ammo starts nose-diving down into the feed ramp during feed from the mag.
-----------
...

:what: I don't know how many times I have told the same story about my Sig P232 SL 380.. Round count and failure to feed is exactly the same, "unless" I keep her clean, fully, before 230 rounds or more..

I bought a SA 1911 EMP 9mm, 9+1 for my wife to replace it, as it proved far too hard, for her, to rack, use the full DA pull with any accuracy, and feed-jams were a nightmare, time-wise, to hold the thumb mag release, while "pulling down" the mag just a tad in order to cycle the slide to eject the jam, and load the next round..

The 9mm EMP can go 500 + rounds before any deep cleaning is required, let alone, if a jam occurs, it has the side-frame mag release button that "pops" the mags out, anytime, every time.. She and I love it.


Ls

mattk
December 5, 2007, 05:26 PM
My BHP has gone 500 rounds without cleaning with no malfunctions.
I cleaned it but I have a feeling it would keep on keeping on.

Colt Goverment .380 I rarely clean it but it has never skipped a beat

Kimber Tac Pro in 9mm same as the Colt .380.

Browning Buckmark. I have never cleaned this gun in the 8 years I have owned. I know I know but it runs like a top and I just put a few drops of oil on the right places.

Geno
December 5, 2007, 06:09 PM
I have this posted previously...a head-to-head test between these two pistols, to see which would fail first:

3,000 round ZERO cleaning = Glock 17

3,000 rounds ZERO cleaning = Colt Series 70 Reproduction

Neither ever failed, in any way, shape or form. :neener:

Doc2005

eldon519
December 5, 2007, 06:49 PM
Any gun will jam if it gets dirty enough. I've had my SKS jam on me, my AK-47 clone, and of the 4 or 5 Glocks I've shot in my life, all but one have jammed as well. Surprisingly, the AK and SKS were pretty clean too, the Glocks not so much.

Bottom line, regardless of who designed it, they're man-made and will fail.

jlbraun
December 5, 2007, 06:52 PM
CZ P01 - Zero cleaning, 2600 rounds, totally reliable.

skinewmexico
December 5, 2007, 07:04 PM
I clean the XD I use in IDPA every case of ammo (500 rounds). When I remember, which I don't always do. I do keep it sufficiently lubricated. Never had to break a pistol in though, they've all been right from the factory. I've tested them for reliability, but I think pistol break in is an internet myth. And I say that knowing that is one of the hallmarks of the 1911 insiders club. Flame suit on!!!!!

jlbraun
December 5, 2007, 07:09 PM
I think pistol break in is an internet myth.

Indeed. Here's the reason "break in" exists:

"I want to return this gun, it's not reliable."
"Shoot 500 rounds through it to break it in."
"OK."
"I shot 500 rounds through it and it still isn't reliable. I'd like to return it."
"I can't take that gun back, it's used!"
"!"
"But I do have a nice custom gunsmith you can go to that will clean those problems right up."

skinewmexico
December 5, 2007, 07:11 PM
My favorite break-in commentary -

http://sargesrollcall.blogspot.com/2007/07/reality-check-number-two-500-round.html#links

JJE
December 5, 2007, 07:26 PM
Any gun will jam if it gets dirty enough.

True. That's why I'm more interested to know about guns that are known to have problems after a few hundred rounds. So far, it looks like .380s (as a group) aren't going to set any records for most shots fired between cleanings. On the other hand if I know that I must clean my PPK/S every hundred rounds to ensure that it will always fire, then that's what I'll do and I'll call it reliable, even if it jams without fail on the 150th round.

eldon519
December 5, 2007, 07:27 PM
My favorite break-in commentary -

http://sargesrollcall.blogspot.com/2...und.html#links


For someone who alleges to know alot about engines, he conveniently leaves out the fact that a freshly rebuilt engine does in fact have a break-in process. Factory engines nowadays often are properly run and broken in at the factory. Alot of it has to do with the rings and bearing surfaces properly seating and mating to one another. Not so different than a handgun.

Geno
December 5, 2007, 08:53 PM
jlbraun:

That's funny!!! If it isn't breaking in period, it's :neener: limp-wrists. :barf: If not that, it's the magazines are bad. :banghead: But whatever it is, it's never the manufacturer.

I have bought ten (10) defective firearms in the past 2 years, from 5 different manufacturers: Kimber (5); T/C Arms (2); Remington (1); DMPS (1) and now Colt (1).

I know...it's my own fault. :D

Doc2005

dasmi
December 5, 2007, 08:58 PM
I know that my Mossberg Plinkster 702 won't run if it's too clean. That's right, too clean=jamming. It likes to be kept at a nice level of grime. Enough to coat everything, not enough to gum up the works.

ruger45
December 5, 2007, 09:09 PM
I've put 400-500 rounds through my Hk p2000 and had no problems what so ever, but then again I clean mine after every range trip. :D

Soldier0117
December 5, 2007, 09:18 PM
This link will show you how the glock is nearly indestructable :what:. Glock perfection for real! :)

http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Item

S&W620
December 5, 2007, 09:58 PM
Wow!

I have never put more than 300 rounds through any one of my guns on a given day and I clean them after each range visit.

You guys actually let your guns stay dirty for thousands of rounds?:confused: Shame on you.;):D

The Lone Haranguer
December 5, 2007, 10:42 PM
It is not so much dirty (unless you use a powder that leaves heavy residue or even unburned granules) as running dry. Neither of my modern interpretations of 1911s will go very long without re-lubing. Glocks can run a long time completely devoid of any lube. SIGs and Kahrs are in between.

Hunter0924
December 5, 2007, 10:52 PM
I have gone 600+ rounds through my Colt Gold Cup Trophy of my home cast LSWC using a Lyman Alox lube and Unique powder. She was plenty dirty but never failed. When I began to disassemble the pistol the receiver look as if I have been gardening with it.

Blarelli
December 5, 2007, 11:00 PM
My ruger p95 has taken over well over 1,000 loads between cleanings before, and it ran just fine.

wrangler5
December 6, 2007, 12:06 AM
Try a Makarov. The 9x18 is a bit more powerful than 380, the Mak is extremely accurate and easy to shoot, and the gun is legendary for bulletproof reliability. I've never gone more than about 300 rounds between cleanings with mine, but that's just because I shoot a lot of the Russian ammo and it really STINKS if you don't clean the gun up after a range session. My sense is that a Mak typically can go thousands of rounds between cleanings.

ExSoldier
December 6, 2007, 12:18 AM
Okay, I was told by my best buddy when he was an active duty Lieutenant Colonel of army Special Forces that if he could only choose one handgun to take to war straight from the box without cleaning or lubrication, the H&K USP would be his choice.

I decided to test his assertion so I bought one. A full size 45 NIB for $800. Right from the box to an IDPA match with no lubrication or cleaning. I figured it might go around 300 or 400 rounds like he said, but I was determined NOT to clean it until I experienced a malfunction of some sort, FTF or FTE most likely. My 1911s will usually jam within 200 rds during the course of a match or heavy range session.

My H&K USP 45 full size put over TWO THOUSAND rounds downrange without a single malfunction! Even then, when I passed that number, there were still no problems. I just felt I had to clean 'er up out of sheer respect! The only other gun I've ever owned that was as robust were my Glock 45s (M21 and M30) and now my Glock M27 in 40 S&W. Even so, I still feel like the USP is the KING of combat sidearms.

jaysouth
December 6, 2007, 01:33 AM
I clean and change the recoil spring in my Glock 19 every 2-3,000 rounds. LWD after market barrel with lead bullet reloads.

Two Norinco 1911s seem to run forever without disassembly.

Les Baer PII super tac went full 500 round break-in with Bullseye reloads without disassembly. It was filthy. I thought I was going to need a pressure washer to clean the powder debris out of it. I have since gone to using Hodgen Clays instead of the Bullseye. However, a better shooter might more accuracy with the Alliant Bullseye.

kd7nqb
December 6, 2007, 01:40 AM
I have a theory that there are a lot of AK's in commie hands that have never seen a good cleaning and dont care.

As for my ownership, I dont run my M&P past 200 without cleaning it BUT that has more to do with I cant really afford to shoot a 500 rounds session if I want to see the range often. It was ingrained in me that if you shoot it you clean it, so I dont know how long it would run.

papajohn
December 6, 2007, 04:06 AM
My EAA Witness 40 has gone 900 rounds without cleaning OR lubrication without failing. It ran slow as molasses by the end, but it still ran. My Buckmark bogs down after about 200 rounds if it's not oiled, but the bigger problem is that the sight base screws work loose, and the gun starts to misfire.

My Bersa Ultra-Compact 45 has been flawless, but the most ammo I ever put through it without cleaning was about 400 rounds, and it was FILTHY. It was so nasty I refused to put it back in my IWB holster! The Bersa .380 was okay after 200 rounds, but it was getting pretty gummy, and I didn't trust it anymore.

PJ

M2 Carbine
December 6, 2007, 10:12 AM
Any gun will jam if it gets dirty enough.

Not necesserally.

I tried to jam this Makarov and failed.:D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/Makinmud.jpg

BrokenArrow
December 6, 2007, 10:36 AM
Anybody making a gun for the service pistol market aims at at least 250 rounds w/o cleaning. Most of the service pistol T&Es I've seen the last few yrs shoot the guns 250 rounds then cool/clean/lube before continuing w reliability/durability tests.

I have run 2K rounds through Glocks, HKs, SR9s, and M&Ps w/o cleaning and w/o any malfunctions/stoppages.

FWIW, during the XM9 testing in the early 80s, the 40 year old and many times rebuilt M1911A1s used as a reference ran better in the wet/dry mud test than the new Berettas, SIGs, S&Ws, HKs, and Walthers tested. ;)

M1911A1, 100%/100%
Beretta 92, 97/98
SIG P226, 98/79
HK P7M13, 99/100
S&W459, 98/96
Walther P88, fail/fail

clang
December 6, 2007, 11:03 AM
Ruger Mark IIs can go a very long time without cleaning.

Of course they have to - they're so damn hard to put back together after taking them apart....

TimboKhan
December 6, 2007, 12:07 PM
Indeed. Here's the reason "break in" exists:

"I want to return this gun, it's not reliable."
"Shoot 500 rounds through it to break it in."
"OK."
"I shot 500 rounds through it and it still isn't reliable. I'd like to return it."
"I can't take that gun back, it's used!"
"!"
"But I do have a nice custom gunsmith you can go to that will clean those problems right up."

Right, thats why Kahr suggests a break in period in it's manual, so they can wait until 500 rounds or so have been down the pipe before they have to pay for warranty work. Makes sense.

I think break-in periods can be overstated, but there is no question that actually shooting a gun can wear it's parts in, much like you need to wear a new pair of jeans a few times before they are really comfortable.

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