[AvidBoater]

I recently purchased a revolver from a private owner and would like to know what model and year it is. It's a Smith and Wesson in .38 S&W CTG with a 4 inch barrel and a 5 shot cylinder. The number on the bottom of the handle is 81908. I also spotted another number and some marks when I opened the cylinder and that is 87797 below that is what appears to be a U and a 9 and just under the barrel there is a T an 8 with a circle around it and another T. Any and all info is appreciated.
:confused:
Also. What is the value of this gun?

Thanks.

http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=68656&stc=1&d=1197003435

[XavierBreath]

Disregard, this post is incorrect. Left in thread only for continuity and my friend's amusement.....:uhoh:

It looks to be a heavy barreled Model 10. Are you certain the cylinder has only five chambers? It should have six.

If you look inside the yoke, you will find a model designation, such as "MOD 10-6" if the revolver was made after 1957. It is definitely a post war gun made after 1955 as shown by the abscence of the upper sideplate screw. If you look on the butt, there may be an alphabetical prefix to the serial number. With the full serial number, we can give you an approximate year. With the photo, all we can do is say after 1955, but before 1968. My best guess is around 1962-1965.

The Model 10 is gaining in market value, especially pinned versions with original grips. They are excellent guns. In most places your revolver would change hands for about $250 assuming I'm right on the rest of the information.

[dbarale]

I'll have to disagree with Xavier here. It looks like a J frame to me. It seems to be in excellent shape and 4" barrel are not common on that size gun.
It could be worth quite a bit more than 250$.
Try asking the same question there: http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/frm/f/530103904

[FPrice]

Most likely it is an I-frame, possibly a (Pre-) Model 32 .38/32 Terrier chambered in .38 S&W, not .38 Special. I'd say early to mid 1950's as a very rough guess. In the condition shown, probably worth about $200-275.

Upon further research I think it is actually the (Pre-) Model 33, the .38 Regulation Police which was the 4" barreled version. This would change the SCSW value to $225-285.

The key is the cartridge which looks more like a .38 S&W and seems to be stamped on the barrel. Plus this is what AvidBoater reported.

[bannockburn]

It sure looks like a Model 33; if it weighs about 18 oz. with an overall length of 8 1/2" with a 4" barrel, then we've got a winner. It retailed for $54.50 back in 1951; last listing I could find for it was 1973/74, at which time it was retailing for $92.00. Nice purchase of an older Smith; it looks like it's in great shape too.

[Old Fuff]

X-Breath:

I'd take ya' out to the woodshed 'cept you can probably outrun me... :D

That is an excellent picture of a late model 33 Regulation Police, made on a J-frame sometime during or after 1960. They started the J-frame production at serial number 70,000 and this one is 81,908. They were discontinued in 1974

Because of the cartridge it was chambered in (.38 S&W) the post-war guns were not particularly popular with users, and still aren't now. However guns in excellent condition are beginning to go up on the collector's market. If you found the right buyer (not always easy too do) it might go for as much as $350 to $400. In an average gunshop $300 would probably be a top price, and likely the seller would be glad to get less.

[FPrice]

Old Fuff, are you saying that this is a J-frame Model 33 which would make it a Model 33-1? If so, then shouldn't it be stamped Model 33-1 in the crane area?

AvidBoater - when you open up the cylinder is there anything like "Model 33" written in the flat area under the forcing cone?

[Old Fuff]

It should be marked 33-1, but it is quite possible the frame was in stock from an earlier production run, and for that reason, didn't have the model marking.

Or they might have missed marking it at all.

I suspect, but don't know for sure (only Roy Jinks would know) that production of J-frame model 33's was very small, given the demand for .38 Special model 36's.

Two points: All of the I-frames had round butts. Square butt models (Regulation Police) were made by using special stocks that converted the revolver from round butt to square. The J-frame model 33's were made using square-butt J-frames.

The hammer is the second-issue J-frame configuration, that wasn't used on I-frames. (with a slim possibility they were on a few improved I-frames, but I doubt it.) When S&W is using up left-over parts almost anything can happen.

[FPrice]

As usual, one learns at the feet of the master.

:)

[DMK]

Because of the cartridge it was chambered in (.38 S&W) the post-war guns were not particularly popular with users, and still aren't now. The .38 S&W is a very nice cartridge to shoot. Very little recoil. I have a .38 S&W British Service Revolver (Model 10, M&P) that I love to shoot.

It's just kind of pricey and uncommon. Even reloading isn't very cost effective since it's an oddball size bullet. I'd bet it would have been a lot more popular if it used the .357 bullet like .38 Special and .357Mag instead of the .360 bullet it does use.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/forgotten_38SW.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38/200

http://www.reloadammo.com/38sw.htm

[XavierBreath]

:scrutiny:

That's what I get for trying to give an answer while dashing out the door for work. Obviously my cohorts are correct. Good job fellows!

[Old Fuff]

That's what I get for trying to give an answer while dashing out the door for work.


WORK!!

What work...????

Is you out collecting guns from old widder wimmin behind Da' Old Fuff's back... ????

I want to see BOTH hands.... :neener: :D

[Old Fuff]

DMK:

I like the .38 S&W, but these days it will never be popular because most buyers want something that's available in P+PLUS-PLUS P and then some. This will never happen with the .38 S&W because of the 19th and early 20th century top-break revolvers that are still out there and use it.

For those that do like it and still shoot it, handloading is the answer. You can lift the performance a bit if you have a later production Colt, S&W Hand Ejector or a Webley, or Enfield revolver rather then a vintage top-break.

The similar (and even more obsolete) .38 Short Colt is about the same size as the .38 S&W, but does use .358" bullets.

[AvidBoater]

Wow. I didn't expect to learn so much in so little time. I have searched the internet for about the last week looking for info and really found nothing. Today I finally took it out to shoot for the first time after I found some rounds for it which seem to be kind of rare and expensive. It seems to be very accurate. I didn't get to play with it much because it was getting dark. I will have to find a day and save some money to really use it.

XavierBreath. Yes it only holds 5 rounds. The numbers I listed are the only ones I have found on this revolver. Should I take off the grips to look for more?

FPrice. You are correct it is a .38 S&W and not a special and yes it is marked on the barrel. I don't see anything saying Model 33 anywhere on the gun.

bannockburn. It is 8.5 inches in total length. As far as weight I don't have a scale available but my Glock 30 feels pretty heavy compared to this thing. I thought it was a toy when I first saw it. It is in excellent shape almost new except for a couple of little scratches next to the cylinder release.

Old Fuff. Are you positive it is a J-Frame Model 33 Police? Would really love to figure it out. I want to buy some different grips for it so the originals stay clean and original:)

Thanks and keep the info coming if there is more. Let me know if a different picture will give some answers.

[XavierBreath]

Is you out collecting guns from old widder wimmin behind Da' Old Fuff's back... ????Now sir, you know that's a community service, and I'm a very civic minded individual. Why them widders might have bad dreams with them old nasty guns in the house........

Yes it only holds 5 rounds. The numbers I listed are the only ones I have found on this revolver. Should I take off the grips to look for more?.........I want to buy some different grips for it so the originals stay clean and originalI don't think grip removal is necessary. There is a fair chance the grips may have a serial number stamped into one on the inside, showing that they are original to the gun, but there is a very high probability they are original simply due to the size they are, the condition of the gun, and the lack of general availability. I would not replace them, rather I would simply preserve them as they are. The grips are just as safe on the firearm, and they will not get lost that way. They survived, what, 50 years on the gun? Chances are with a little care, they will survive another 50.

Are you positive it is a J-Frame Model 33 Police? Would really love to figure it out. I'm positive Old F and company are correct. The lack of a Model number is an indication of a pre-1957 gun, and the lack of the upper sideplate screw is a pretty positive determination of a post-1956 gun. Draw whatever conclusions from that you like. As Fuff stated, the lack of a model designator may simply be an oversight by Smith & Wesson. Only Roy Jinks (http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2006/01/collectors-treasure.html) can say for certain. I do recommend you get this gun lettered (http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2006/01/collectors-treasure.html). If it is a pre-1957 gun, the proper nomenclature would be a 38 Regulation Police (Postwar). Some would call it a "Pre-Model 33.

From the SCS&W (http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2006/12/supicas-third-edition-is-out.html): Post-war versions were built on the I frame with five screws, and the improved I frame with four screws and three screws with a coil mainspring rather than a leaf mainspring. Later built on the slightly longer J frame. Regulation Police markings were deleted as existing stock was used. Serial number range 54475-122678. Excellent condition = $300. ANIB = $450.

My question for the Old wise one..........Did S&W stamp the model designation on the frame when the frame was first manufactured, before it went into storage? Or did they stamp the model designation on the frame when it was later taken out of storage for assembly into a firearm?

I have taken the liberty of re-sizing your pic and inserting it into your first post.

[Old Fuff]

Smith & Wesson used to make frames and first fit the yoke, which was polished while on the frame to get a perfect fit. To make sure that the right yoke got back on the right frame they would stamp an assembly number (unrelated to the serial number, that came later) on the frame behind the yoke cutout, and on the inside face of the yoke. Then later, but before assembling the frame into a complete gun, they'd stamp the serial number on the butt. Even later they’d pull frames out of inventory to build guns.

The Regulation Police model (later model 33) was introduced in 1917, and offered in either .32 S&W Long (6 shots) or .38 S&W (5 shots), and between 1917 and 1940 built on a modified I-frame where the round-butt backstrap was cut to take special stocks that made it into a square-butt configuration. 38’s were numbered in their own series, starting at 1 and ending at 54,474 in 1940. Following World War Two, production was resumed in 1949, at serial number 54,475 and continued to 122,678 when the model was discontinued in 1974. During this post-war period revolvers were made using original I-frames, Improved I-frames (coil rather then flat mainsprings) and J-frames as time went by. J-frame production used the square butt frame rather then a modified round-butt one.

To get back to the subject. S&W didn’t always pull previously serial numbered frames out of inventory in numerical sequence, and in particular unpopular models might be assembled in small lots months and even years later then the serial number might indicate. A rough estimate of when a gun was made can sometimes be determined from a good photograph (and the one in this thread was a very good one) by looking at details such as:

Do the stocks have a diamond around the screw?

How many screws in the sideplate?

The shape of the hammer, particularly the hammer spur.

The shape/style of the cylinder release thumbpiece.

The shape and size of the trigger guard.

So to my eye the identification of these features tell me that the frame in question is a square-butt J-frame.

But that leaves us with the questions, “when was it made?” and perhaps, “when was it shipped from the factory?” I can narrow down the time span that it was probably made, but only Roy Jinks – Smith & Wesson’s in-house historian can get to the records that would tell for sure. But given that the model wasn’t very popular, and the demand for other models being built on the square-butt J-frame – the model 36 Chief Special in particular – I think that the model 33 Regulation Police/J-frame is a pretty scarce bird.

The higher value of this revolver is as a collectable, not a user. But there is no reason it can’t be used for both purposes.

Since S&W might not know what model a frame might be made up into, the model number would have to be stamped just prior to making the gun up - and they were known to get things mixed up. For example I have examined model 29 (44 Magnum) that were stamped mod 57 (41 Magnum).

[AvidBoater]

Thank you Fuff. I will contact Mr. Jinks and figure this out. I ended up doing a search on the .38 Regulation police and found some pictures but they all actually said regulation police on the barrel, mine does not.

[Old Fuff]

They dropped the Regulation Police marking when they went to the ribbed barrel. I suspect this was because so few in law enforcement were using it anymore. The J-frame in .38 Special (model 36 Chief Special) killed the demand and interest in the older gun.

To see a pre-war Regulation Police, built on the older I-frame, go to the following link:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=83847778

[AvidBoater]

I was told on the smith and wesson forum that this is a modified I-Frame and not a J-frame and that the J-frame grips will not work. I wanted to get a set of grips for when I go out shooting I don't get the originals all smudged up from dirty hands. Can I use just any I-frame grips then?

[rcmodel]

Yes, probably!
But finding "just any I-Frame grips" is going to be a pretty big chore, I betcha!

Nobody except perhaps a few custom grip makers, has made them for close to 50 years now.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

[Old Fuff]

The Old Fuff thinks that someone on the other mentioned thread needs to do some research... :uhoh:

The Improved I-frame had a round butt, and was used to make .32 1903 Hand Ejectors (pre-model 30) and .38 Terriers (pre-model 32). If they made a Regulation Police (pre-model 33) it was on a modified round-butt frame that then used a special round-to-square butt walnut stock.

Be that as it may, S&W discontinued the Improved I-frame in 1961. In place of it on the model 33-1 they used a true square butt J-frame rather then a modified round-butt frame. The model continued in production until it was discontinued in 1974 at serial number 122,687.

The revolver in the picture is a square-butt J-frame. (with slab-side stocks). They never made a true square-butt I-frame.

Minor correction. The serial number series ( not the revolver) ended in January, 1969 at serial number 122,687. Thereafter until the revolver was discontinued in 1974 it was numbered in the Model 60 (Stainless Chief Special) series with an "R" prefix

[Old Fuff]

Now comes the Old Fuff to admit he may have made a mistake... :what:

Apparently there was such a thing a a true square-butt Improved I-frame. However the issue of stocks is moot, because the J-frame square butt (and stocks used thereon) were identical to what was used on the earlier square butt I-frame. The square butt Improved I-frame was primarily used on .22-32 Kit Guns (pre model 34) and the .22-32 Target (pre-model 35) with adjustable sights, as well as the .32 and .38 Regulation Police (pre-model 31 and 33). With the exception of the .22-32 Kit Gun, the other models were relatively obscure.

So if AvidBoater should purchase square-butt J-frame stocks for his particualr revolver there shouldn't be any problems. While these might or might not be hard to find, I would dirrect him toward a fellow THR member, "Robbt," who I think can fix him up with what he needs. Look in, Buy, Sell and Trade: Accessories.

Sorry about the confusion... :( :o :o :o :o :o

[hide]

i have a 38 smith 142971 on the but of the gun any ideas

[Radagast]

hide: With a serial number of 142971 the gun could be one of several models.

Is it a top break or swing out cylinder?
Barrel length? (Measure from cylinder to muzzle)
If a swing out cylinder is there a model number stamped on the frame, hidden when the cylinder is closed?
What type of grip?
How many rounds in the cylinder?
Adjustable or fixed sights?
Does it have an exposed hammer?

If it is a top break with an exposed hammer and five shot cylinder then it is probably a .38 Double Action Third Model made between 1884 & 1895.

If it is a top break with a concealed hammer and five shot cylinder then it is probably a .38 Safety Hammerless 4th model made between 1898 & 1907.

If it a six shot swing out cylinder on a medium frame then it is probably a .38 special Hand Ejector Military & Police made between 1906 & 1909.

A picture will help identify it.

[SaxonPig]

AvidBoater- What you have is a collector gun and not a practical shooting gun. The 38 S&W is a caliber that demands reloading due to the cost and very limited availability of factory ammo. Parts, like the stocks, are simply not to be found.

If I were in your position, I would sell this gun to someone who wants to look at it and buy a Model 10 in 38 Special as a much more useful revolver for actually shooting things.

[Old Fuff]

AvidBoater:

I'll address the question of stocks. The original J-frame revolver used the same stocks as the Improved I-frame. But shortly after it was introduced the butt was lengthened about 1/8 inch. So while J-frame stocks won't fit your I-frame as they come out of the box, the can be shortened a bit, a pin hole in the bottom sometimes relocated, and thereafter they'll work fine. ;)

[AvidBoater]

It's nice that this old post got some spark and came back to life:)

I bought this gun because of its condition and the price. It was a deal I could not refuse. I knew it wouldn't be pratical to shoot all the time when I bought the first box of ammo at about 28.99 then. I used up the first box, cleaned the gun and put it away. I bought a second box of ammo at about 34.99 a little later to make sure I could shoot it if I wanted to and because a gun is just a paper weight without ammo.

Old Fuff - I have been going thinking I have a J-Frame all this time. Are you saying I have a modified I-frame? I found a single pair of grips on eBay (after looking for a year or more) that looked exactly like mine, very small with the diamond in the middle and they were for a J-Frame.

I was going to contact Mr. Jinks for a letter until I saw the price go up to 50$ I will eventually bite the bullett and send for a letter to find out for sure and I will post what I learn from him.

[Old Fuff]

I believe that the revolver pictured in post #1 of this thread is a square-butt J-frame. I say that because it has a style of hammer that wasn't introduced in the improved I-frame. It should also have a flat cylinder latch thumbpiece.

But it's a moot point because the square butt Improved I- frame and J-frame used the same stocks. However the round butt stocks were slightly different, except for some very early J- frames.

Because S&W tended to use up old parts whenever they could, and sometimes did so years after they were supposed to have been discontined, I'll let Roy Jinks make the final finding. He has the advantage of having the original records.