[oklahoma caveman]

is there a such thing?

personally i can see under certain circumstances where if placed in a situation like: i just got layed off work and MUST feed my children; that i would feel poaching a deer justifiable. whats your take?

would you folks mind giving your reason behind your beliefs? especially the no response

[ArmedBear]

Around here, poaching a deer isn't justifiable morally. There are very few deer. A few meals could rob the area of its entire population, and a lot of meals for others.

Somewhere that deer are really plentiful and mainly a road hazard, and F&G "management" is just going through the motions, I wouldn't hold it against someone who took one for food in such a situation.

I mean, if you're lost and starving in the wilderness, I think that it's legal to do all sorts of things that violate fish and game law, like trapping fish and eating protected species. F&G management is very important for a number of reasons, but human life is still paramount, in the eyes of the law AFAIK.

[oklahoma caveman]

in a survival situation yea i would do anything to stay alive. but im meaning like you know somebody who kills a deer occasionaly without checking it in or without the proper license weapon etc. but he is only doing it for the meat to feed his family. not i repeat not poaching for a trophy which in my opinion is never justifiable:cuss::cuss::fire:

[Bearhands]

I'd think it would be simpler to ask the landowner if he'd allow you to hunt for food rather than trespass and risk legal ramifications

[ArmedBear]

A while ago now, in school, I studied population biology.

In some situations, killing a few deer out of season here and there means wiping them out in a large area, or it can. In others, e.g., places where deer are everywhere and are far more likely to be killed by a truck or die of cold than be shot by a hunter, you're really not hurting anything or anyone if you take one.

That's what I meant. The moral question, to me, depends on the situation. It's immoral to wipe out the deer population. That's like stealing. But is it really immoral when you hurt nobody?

Every individual has to decide for him/herself, really.

That said, I follow F&G laws. But I'm blessed with all I need right now, too. It would be immoral for ME to poach, as it stands, here and now. I won't do it.

[R.W.Dale]

I voted no! Mainly cause there's just about always some kind of edible critter in season on public land that wouldn't require breakin the law or robbing someone else of their game. If worst comes to worse fishing season is always open. Or better yet if you're not too lazy to hunt obviously your not too lazy to go out and get a JOB! There's no excuse for not being employed in this country, you might just have to settle for a job you don't like.

besides if you're relying on killing a deer to eat you may end up boiling your boots before your next meal

[Zoogster]

Well technicaly most animal populations that were decimated were done so for food. Many animals that went extinct in the last couple hundred years were either an easy source of food for new settlers to a region or island someplace, or had a pretty fur coat.

During the depression in the 30's the deer population was wiped out in many places from people poaching for meat. They were not doing it for sport, or for a trophy or hide. They did it for meat.

Well there is far more people in the nation now than then, and far less land that wildlife inhabits. So in a similar situation today wildlife would go extinct within a short time.

If every person living below the poverty line hunted for all the meat they needed, then the wild population would not exist. Consider the amount of livestock raised and butchered which exceeds the number of wild big game that exists.

So while it is easy to understand, if caught you will still face criminal prosecution.
What if you got stranded someplace? Offroading accident, plane crash, etc? Then breaking the law to eat would be one of the last concerns, but you would still be eligable for prosecution.

Hunting is a recreational past time. The human population is far too large now to have even a small fraction of it killing for sustenance.

The unemployment rate in the US in 2006 was 4.8%, one of the lowest rates in a long time. Yet close to 5% of a population of over 300,000,000 hunting for thier meat would decimate the wild population quickly. If every individual unemployed got just 1 deer a month, the wild population would cease to exist in short order.

[oklahoma caveman]

krochus i live in a rural area where there are few jobs and the ones that can be had dont pay much. in many cases less than the cost of living.

and i never said it was right or moral or legal but can you honestly say that if your family is starving, for whatever reason, that if you saw a deer, elk, etc standing in your pasture that you would not shoot it?

and for the sake of argument say that you can legally kill 4 deer with appropriate tags and all. what if you couldnt afford the extra expense of the tags from an already decimated budget, and youonly killed the 4 your allowed without checking them in

[retrieverman]

Justifiable poaching is an oxymoron.

[oklahoma caveman]

how so? it may be against the law(hence poaching) but it could possibly be justified under some extreme circumstances(hence justifiable).

but really whats with people who get on a thread just to post some bull $hit that has no bearing to what the thread is about?

[DogBonz]

My Grandfather and my Great Uncles feed their families with venison and game birds. If it were not for this source of food, much of which I assumed was "poached", who knows how our family would have made out.

[R.W.Dale]

i live in a rural area where there are few jobs

Then MOVE! after all we are talking about surviving

the ones that can be had dont pay much. in many cases less than the cost of living.

So there are JOBS in the area!!! And do they not pay enough to buy some FOOD???

That's the problem people don't want to settle for a JOB they want a career. That's why we're being overrun by illegals!

Shooting another mans deer on his property is NO different than shooting his cows. It's stealing plain and simple and being a thief is NEVER justifiable. Neither in the eyes of God or man

what if you couldnt afford the extra expense of the tags from an already decimated budget,

You go and apply for FOOD stamps possibly swinging by the Food bank on the way. Then you stop by the nearest fast food resturant, chicken plant, lumber yard or wal-mart and apply for a JOB!

[Charles S]

Shooting another mans deer is NO different than shooting his cows.

I did not realize that anyone owned deer. Other than on a high fence game ranch.

Just because they are on your property at this time does not mean they are your deer. That is unless you fence them in.

[R.W.Dale]

Shooting another mans deer on his property is NO different than shooting his cows. It's stealing plain and simple and being a thief is NEVER justifiable. Neither in the eyes of God or man


And if it's on your property well...if you own property than you should sell it and buy some food. Cause if your that hard up for something to eat you won't be able to keep the taxes up anyhow!

Like I said fishing season is always open. this thread is little more than a thinly veiled excuse to justify poaching just cause the OP has made a bunch of bad decisions regarding his employment and as a result happens to be broke that week

[NeenachGuy]

I voted "no." Poaching is not justifiable, unless you're talking about poaching an egg. :-)

[nerfsrule2]

I lived in North West Montana for 5 years. I knew people that killed Wildlife out of season,not just for food, but to survive.

[Blackfork]

I think most governments, local, state and federal, have long since lost any claim on being moral. Hard enough for them to claim to be even "fair" or "just." They don't even seem to be bound by their own laws and regulations.

In Texas, there are so many deer that they could be de-classified as game animals and listed as vermin. Across the US in general the situation is the same. More whitetail deer in the lower 48 than there EVER have been.

That said, they are the state's deer, not yours. The state may not be just or fair, but it's pretty dang powerful. Back through history the King doesn't tolerate his deer being poached by peasants.

I don't have an opinion on this. I expect to kill about 15 deer this season, and am hunting through an extended season (end of Feb) due to laws passed to facilitate tax breaks for certain landowners. The day before the season, I didn't shoot a rather large buck on my own land, due to fear of the state. More trouble than it is worth worrying about.

[Caimlas]

For me, at least locally, it's a matter of thinking along the lines of: is it moral to not cull some of the animal surplus? Honestly, you've got to consider what a cold, dry winter and/or a poor harvest of their primary foods will do to a population already straining against the upper limits of what the local ecosystem can support.

I'm talking about: herds of deer and antelope (15+ in one small area, all over the place) and flocks of pheasants (40? dunno, hard to count that many that quickly). Yes, that's bountiful game, but if an area has had a series of good seasons (warm winters, etc.) those animals will be in for a world of pain that winter, or the coming spring.

And no, I haven't poached anything.

[cracked butt]

I grew up in a rural area where paoching deer for food was very common, its no big deal, there's a huge overabundance of deer in my state. Its done often but its not something that people talk about.I won't fault anyone for doing so.

The other kind of poaching is spotlighting bucks with big racks and shooting them at night- usually the head gets cut off in a hurry and the rest is left to lay. People who do this should experience the joy of prison sodomy.

[ArmedBear]

Caimlas is right.

Of course, not everyone in the field knows or even thinks at all about game management. The point is, it's not always cut and dry, morally.

And like him, I don't poach. In this environment, it's stealing game from everyone else to do so, not just culling an animal that will die in Winter anyway.

[Regolith]

Only in a survival situation (i.e. you've been lost in the woods for several days and you need food to stay alive). Otherwise, no.

[1911 guy]

If it was a matter of eating or not eating, I'd look the other way.

However, extra stuff (like internet service) would need to be sacrificed before I'd consider it morally justifiable to poach. $75 a month for cable and internet will buy a whole lot of hotdogs and beans. Get rid of the cell phone and you could buy buns, milk and kielbasa and kraut for Sunday Dinner.

[macFarlaine]

If you are starving and need to feed your family..yes.We were a country of poachers once,Robin Hood,we write books about these old guys.
We have poachers now,who poach for financial gain,they are genrally jailed when caught.

[dwave]

I look at it like this, Save my life by breaking the law, or Die because I wouldn't. I will break the law and live.

[rbernie]

this thread is little more than a thinly veiled excuse to justify poaching just cause the OP has made a bunch of bad decisions regarding his employment and as a result happens to be broke that weekDang - how did you deduce all of that from the original post? I sure didn't.

In general, I've never lived in areas where wild game was scarce or threatened in any way. In fact, I've spent much of my life in areas where (other than strip or deep shaft mining) there was no local industry and long-haul trucking was about the only way to introduce money into the local economy. Trucks break down, and truckers get paid by the mile. I've known more than a few good folk who got jammed up when their truck threw a significant metal piece onto the road and required their accumulated savings to fix it.

Would I begrudge someone for poaching a deer to feed the brood while the truck gets fixed and they have no income? Eh - I'd probably look the other way and not get overly judgemental about it.

If someone did it for a trophy or because poaching was simply a means of helping save their monthly dole check for beer - I'd probably have a problem looking the other way.

[MCgunner]

I clicked yes with reservations. It'd have to be one of those survival, end of the world, all society has collapsed, "SHTF" this board puts it scenarios. I'd never do such a thing if I'd just gotten laid off or something. Hell, I lost my job in 01 and just decided to retire and work for myself. I haven't missed a meal. That's why you SAVE, SAVE, SAVE and invest in your younger working years, for financial security. When I was younger, I always had Mom if I got desperate. :D Now, my daughter has Dad if she gets desperate. And, there are plenty of hogs out there I can feed on legally without poaching. The farmers might consider hogs a pest, I think they're God's gift to the indigent. :D No reason to kill a deer out of season or trespass. Explain yourself to a farmer with a hog problem and you'll probably get permission, hell, even help trapping hogs. And, the bay around here is full of fish, oysters, etc.

Yeah, if you CAN work, you can FIND work. If you CAN'T work, how the hell are you going to butcher a deer? :rolleyes: That's why there is social security disability. I have a friend in dire straights right now, but he's near social security anyway and getting VA disability (wounded vet). He gets a part of my hog catch and I take him down to my place and set him on a stand now and then, but not so much for food as the fact that we are friends and he likes to hunt and can't afford a lease. Fortunately, he has a paid for home. His wife works, so they make it by. See, this is why we have friends and family, for bad situations. I think urban folks don't seem to remember such things, most live out their lives and never even know their neighbors, let alone anyone else in town. Extended families are a thing of the past and kids don't seem to have a sense of responsibility for their parents (if they know who they are) anymore.

[USMC - Retired]

I would vote for only in a true survival situation. Such as being charged by a grizz and having to shoot out of defense, or lost in the wilderness and having to take game to survive. If it's just a matter of putting food on the table then take advantage of one of the thousands of programs out there for low income folks or take the game within the limits of the law.

[dead on]

i am a dairy farmer that deals with poaching all year long on my land.I have had the pleasure of catching a few of these guys too. And have heard the feeding my family bit used, didnt buy it tho....since he was driving a 2006 ford truck and using a browning gold hunter topped with a bushnell elite....must be times are tough around my place

[Art Eatman]

This is one of the few areas where my ethics are situational.

If I'm hunting on a deer lease ranch, I work very hard to do ethical hunting and obey the game laws.

Were I very poor and living in some parts of central Texas, with its notable overpopulation of whitetail deer, I'd probably eat more than "my share" of venison. The herd numbers are far above the carrying capacity of the land.

Back in the late 1960s, I moved back to the old family ranch near Austin. I had way too many deer on the place. I went out one night with a spotlight and counted some fifty pairs of eyes in just one 100-acre pasture. Runty, scraggle-horned; mature spikes, etc. I did a totally illegal culling, mostly does, and within four years saw a dramatic increase in average size of all deer. I then was quite happy to quit culling. But instead of bucks dressing out at 90 pounds, they were up toward 125, +/-.

(The area got developed. I phrased it that we were "attacked" by subdivisions. Cars killed more deer than I did...)

Out here in the desert? I'd turn in a poacher in a heartbeat. Sparse population of mule deer. Better to kill lions; they taste good.

In general, I far and away prefer to follow the game laws, even when I know I wouldn't get caught.

[revamp]

Another perspective on the "poaching to feed the family" excuse.

I'm relatively young--just turned 29 and grew up in the suburbs of Cleveland OH. When I was young (not too long ago and not in rural America), a local Steel plant closed down and thousands of men lost their jobs and flooded the employment market looking for new ones. My dad was one of them. He tried to make ends meet by selling cars, but wasn't having much luck in a demolished economy.

My dad has always been a hunter, has always been a gun enthusiast, but he didn't turn to poaching to feed us.

He raised rabbits. He built a shed, hand-made some cages out of sheets of galvanized mesh, was given some rabbits from a friend. He let the rabbits do what rabbits do best, and soon we had a self-renewing form of meat that carried the family (a family of 4) through 2-3 years of hard times.

[Ranger J]

Killing a deer out of season for food when you can't get any other way is one thing. Around here the 'average poacher' drives a 35 thousand dollar 4 X 4 and shoots a several thousand dollar gun with an elaborate spotlighting system (often with night vision scopes) and when confronted this same person will tell you he is just shooting the deer to feed his family. Bad back problems seems to be rampant among these people and this prevents them from holding a job (the wife often has two jobs) but doesn't prevent him from any hunting or fishing. As often as not we find deer carcasses with just the tenderloin cut out of them or in the case of bucks with just the antlers cut off. Poaching in our area is not a matter of survival but pure laziness. Most of these people are too lazy to do their scouting, put up stands and then maybe spend hours waiting for deer to pass in shooting range. As you can see I have little use for the local poachers. If they honestly couldn't get or because of real physical problems hold a job and were forced to shoot an occasional deer that might be OK. In our area one of the largest local land owner's family are the biggest poachers with thousands of acres of land. Then do they poach deer on their land? H*** no, they drive up and down the country roads shooting what are potentially my deer. I have worked with the local game authorities and they are well aware of who these people are and I am sure they will get them some day. The problem, according to the agents, is that most of the local judges are members of the 'good old boy' network and they will either find these people innocent or let them off with a slap on the hand. There now that I have ranted I feel much better!

RJ

[MCgunner]

Yeah, there aren't many that poach in this area and the ones that do are on the Game Warden's list, you can bet on that. :D I know one such public enemy. He ain't a really bad person, he just has totally screwed up hunter ethics and I don't hang around this guy. I used to work with him. His son got caught by helicopter hunting in the dunes on Padre Island at the land cut, national sea shore and where the big deer go when hunting season starts. He lost his gun, his ATV, his Carolina Skiff, and did a year in jail. Was it worth it? I don't know that the kid OR father learned a damned thing, either. They're probably plotting a way in there without getting caught, maybe their own helicopter or something. :rolleyes: I remember a bull session at work once when I was talking about this guy's hovercraft (still think one of those would be neat for the duck marsh) and this guy spoke up and says "Hmm, one of those wouldn't leave tracks in the sand, either, would it?" You know what HE was thinkin'. :rolleyes:

[frogomatic]

don't you know it's against the law to kill the king's deer

"poaching" - just another way to criminalize the self-suffecient and enforce a state of dependency on the people. Just another intrusion, an attempt at controlling how a person lives on his/her little piece of god's green earth.

[rbernie]

"poaching" - just another way to criminalize the self-suffecient and enforce a state of dependency on the people.Dispite the desire to view any/all restrictions as political muzzling, many games laws can be readily traced to nothing more sinister than proper wildlife management tenets.

[MCgunner]

Frogomatic.....You're kiddin', right? Ever hear of game management? Do you know what state deer populations were in EVEN IN TEXAS and even in Llano county where there's now a deer under every tree, before conservation laws were passed and limits and seasons were established? You should educate yourself. I spent 4 years at Texas A&M studying Wildlife and Fisheries Management. You can't do it without laws and people obeying said laws. You can't just go out there and have a free for all. They aren't the "king's deer", they're the public's deer and there won't be any deer without proper management. And, God help you if I catch you on my land. They might have to haul you off in a hearse, if you threaten me while I'm holding you for the game warden.

[cracked butt]

Yeah, if you CAN work, you can FIND work. If you CAN'T work, how the hell are you going to butcher a deer? That's why there is social security disability

In rural areas, its not uncommon that most jobs are low paying, some people might work 2 or 3 jobs just to pay the bills. Having a 100 lbs of meat in the freezer from a critter that was grazing behind your house the day before is not a luxury or something to do for fun, its a Godsend. here are still rural folk out there that aren't so eager as city folk to jump on the .gov gravy train and in such areas doing so is really looked down upon. I know of people who wouldn't sign up for unemployment benefits because to them it was welfare and and only losers collect it.

There are those with the $30,000 trucks and $1000 rifles that jacklight deer, but don't paint everyone with a broad brush. There are still Americans out there that are independant and hard enough that they'll eat what they can find, grow, and shoot before they will bow to sugar daddy Uncle Sam.

[.41 magnum man]

I voted yes like many others if the situation was life one of survival. I lived for almost 9 years in a cabin back in the wilderness in my 20's, and though I worked for a living there was one time when I lost my job and had no income for over a month. Still, I did not kill any animals to eat, but became very knowledgable about wild mushrooms. There is one type of mushroom in that area that was very abundant during that time of the year, called "Swamps" by the locals. They are a type of lacterius mushroom, which are very delicious and meaty. (Easily confused with other unedible mushrooms. Always KNOW what you are doing before you eat ANY wild mushroom!) I ate those things for a solid month. I had them for breakfast, lunch, and supper. I fried them, I baked them, I even made a pan of them with chicken "Shake and Bake." I loved those mushrooms before I lost my job, but since that time--I HATE SWAMPS! I still eat other types of edible wild mushrooms though. Anyway, I survived my month of being poor, and I didn't have to break any laws to do it. Just goes to show there are other alternatives sometimes.

[frogomatic]

just for the record, I do not poach. I also understand, very well, the need for game management. My home area right now suffers from rather poor game management. Populations of nearly all game species are at an all time high, and are well into the 'over-population' range. The harsh penalties for minor infractions, the high cost of permits, and the poor attitude on the part of DOC officers in the area is what really gets me riled up about .gov controlling the hunting. The ammount of game I cull would not change regardless of what regulations were put on hunting. I take only what I need to get me through the year. When I've had opportunity to take sick, weak, or just unhealthy game, I do so, and in doing so have done my part to simulate a more natural predator/prey relationship. I also raise a few chickens and rabbits to reduce my hunting needs. I guess it just comes down to the fact that I don't like the .gov controlling how I live, when I do so in responsible and ethical manner. To me it's no different than the gun regulations placed on me despite the fact that I'm a responsible and ethical gun owner.

edit: perhaps the term 'poaching' just needs a slight redefinition. I do agree that jerks with expensive trucks, guns, and spotlights, that are just killing for the trophy are indeed poachers and should be dealt with harshly. But a guy who REALLY is just feeding his family shouldn't be placed under the same label.

[41magsnub]

I voted no. I can see an exception for somebody starving, but generally speaking no. I think in extreme circumstances survival is more important than the law. But, if the general consensus is that poaching is ok then the various jackasses out there will slaughter the wildlife populations.

[woodybrighton]

I eked out my student grant by poaching mostly rabbit though the odd wood pigeon using a .22 suppressed air rifle
might have got permission if I asked.
though when I rented an allotment off the council and rabbits ate my veg it was more ethnic cleansing than strictly for food:fire:

conversation with council officer
me "place is over ran with rabbits could you do some pest control"
council officer "can't do that if news got out there'd be hell to pay form animal liberation types they wrecked the swimming pool and bowling greens last time.
what if somebody shot them
that would be illegal and you'd be in trouble if you got caught
so I won't get caught had all that expensive army training seems a shame to waste it
council officer laughing we never had this conversation:D
2 weeks 350 rabbits later:eek:
freezer full neighbors freezers full old peoples centres freezer full did'nt cook sunday lunch for a year:D
allotment society stops whining about bloody rabbits

[Geno]

I remember attending a court proceeding with my former LEO BIL so I could see the process. A DNR officer had caught this guy poaching a deer. The poacher claimed he had lost his job. He continued that couldn't even afford a license to hunt, and that he needed to feed his kids. The judge probably would have bought his story but for the fact that the guy only took the hind-quarters. :scrutiny: The balance of the deer was the evidence against him. He got a big fine, about 10 days in jail, lost his firearm and lost his hunting ability for 5 years.

[MCgunner]

In rural areas, its not uncommon that most jobs are low paying, some people might work 2 or 3 jobs just to pay the bills. Having a 100 lbs of meat in the freezer from a critter that was grazing behind your house the day before is not a luxury or something to do for fun, its a Godsend. here are still rural folk out there that aren't so eager as city folk to jump on the .gov gravy train

Ya know what? For 35 years the gov'ment took FICA out of my paycheck in spades. Now that it's coming up MY turn to draw a little of it, damned little considering, I don't have a single problem with it. :rolleyes: I live in a megalopolis of 12,000 people in a county that might contain 40K, not sure. We ain't exactly Houston's fifth ward, put it that way, and all around me I see WIC and SSI disability and this and that. Friends and even my wife draw disability. In her case, she got in a wreck and can't stand up for long, though she can make it out of the bed to her motorized wheelchair or to the pot or whatever. I'm not going to go out and kill illegal deer to support us, nope, I believe in conservation of wildlife resources. If we'd not started conservation programs and instated laws to enforce them, where would we be now? You'd not have any game to poach. Perhaps I'm a little idealistic, but folks NEED TO FOLLOW GAME LAWS AND NOT IGNORE THEM BECAUSE THEY THINK THEY'RE THE PRODUCT OF SOCIALISM!!!!!!!!! If you don't follow the law and you get caught, you won't get any sympathy from me, indigent or not.

And, I've been there as a broke student eeking my way through school, too, but I did it legal and with permission of land owners. I ate a lot of dandelion, prickly pear, crawdads, fish, and such that were taken legally. I didn't eat regular, but I didn't starve. When I got my first job, 3 months later I'd gained 20 lbs and a belly roll. In ways, sparse eating was good for me. There are no gov'ment programs for broke students. If you wanna get out of college without debt to chain you for the rest of your working life, it's going to be by holding down several jobs and just doing it on your own. But, it does build character, I reckon. MY parents were working poor, always worked, never had much, pretty much all I'd ever known. I'm pretty broke right now, but I'm far more well off than they were. I did it by living below my means and saving over the years and getting an education and working my whole life and not carrying what the Jone's thought. I didn't get here by social welfare or feeling sorry for myself or killing the "king's deer". :rolleyes:

[oklahoma caveman]

im gona be the better man an not get into a pissing match with some people on here who are trying to be hard asses.

as far as poachers who only take a ham or strap or the horns my op says my feeling on that.

i was just asking if it could ever be justifiable/excusable ever

[marksman13]

I do understand and appreciate the need for game management. That said, I belive that many states are getting close to max sustainable capacity with deer herds. Many states, like Blackfork alluded to, could even list deer as a pest animal. It will never happen though for a couple of reasons. Number one, deer hunting is a fairly sizeable source of income for many states. A drop in the bucket compared to some sources, but still a big enough cash cow that they won't turn it loose. Second, if the state let people hunt deer like they do coyotes and other vermin, we would be right back to the meager populations we had in the earlier part of this century. And third there would be alot more accidents when the week end warriors realized they could hunt ol Bambi with a spotlight from the road. Can you imagine how many lazy b#####ds would be riding around at night on opening day shooting deer out of people's front yards and pastures.

I can understand shooting a deer in the Summer to keep a family fed, and I could even go for hunting clubs and land owners being able to have organized night hunts to keep populations in check, but Bubba riding around with his rifle shooting deer off the road in the Summer...no way.

[oklahoma caveman]

ok this is starting to veer off course. i said it IS season and if you had the money to buy tags you could kill 4 deer. legally. what im saying is you kill 4 deer DURING DEER SEASON only without checking them in

[MCgunner]

Well, yeah, when the country goes socialist and the Muslims attack and conquer and instate "sharia law" or whatever the hell it is, I'll be living out in the mountains of New Mexico where once the Apache fought the invaders off (for a while at least) and I'll be killin' deer, jerking elk meat, and eating prickly pear. But, until then.....:D

[308win]

If the poaching is for monetary gain it isn't justified. If the poaching is to feed the family or yourself and it is truly that or go hungry it is hard for me to find fault.

[FLORIDA KEVIN]

If you are in a survival situation remote widlerness and hunting for surviaval yes it is ! i would think I would rather take a rabbit or 2 or game bird rather than deal with a whole deer1 But I guess it depaends on how many mouths you have to feed ! I have found too many people where i live that violate the fishing restrictions on game fish for profit ! now that is POACHING!:cuss:

[oklahoma caveman]

yes agreed poaching anything that is for monetary gain or personal trophies is never justifiable and should be a more serious crime than it is in many places

[MCgunner]

They raised the trespass laws from misdemeanor to felony status a while back in Texas at least where poaching is concerned. This guy I spoke of has taken Nilgai off the Kennedy ranch. Now, that is felony theft I reckon, because they are not considered game there, but rather as livestock.

When the great conflagration comes, there will be no law abiding citizens, game laws or otherwise. I made the statement on SOME thread that if it was dog eat dog, the bomb dropped, the Muslims were hanging infidels in the streets, I'd just shoot a calf instead of going after game. All the ranchers piled on, but if they were law abiding in a "Road Warrior" scenario, there would be no ranchers, they'd be long since dead or they'd be living like me, hiding, killing what they needed to eat, and hoping to form a resistance fighter force or something.

Yeah, silly ain't it? I voted yes, but it'd have to come to that situation before I'd give up on society and the law and just go into survival mode. Unemployment isn't a good enough reason way I see it. Of course, I have a whole bay full of fish here. Why hunt when fishing is really more productive? Those hard head cat fish that people toss away and cuss as trash fish, well, poor folks eat 'em and they're really quite edible and good. I even hear folks cuss gafftop catfish, but I eat 'em all the time. Those suckers get BIG and fight hard and fry up just as good as any drum or redfish. Priorities, man, priorities!!! :D

[CoRoMo]

I voted no.

+1 retrieverman; oxymoron

HOWEVER...

I voted before I read any of the posts including the initial one. I think if I was broke, unemployed, and hungry, I'd just cash in on this country's over eager welfare programs. Soup kitchens are plentiful in the USA and there is no reason why any American should poach to put food on the table. Yet, I can tell you for certain that if I was stranded out in Alaska's interior frontier where there is no getting to civilization, and it is down to survival, I'd kill anything I could to put meat in the belly. That type of situation is really the only one that I can imagine to justify poaching, but then again would it be poaching?

[MCgunner]

I don't think killing to survive when stranded would meet the definition of "poaching" IMHO.


Soup kitchens are plentiful in the USA and there is no reason why any American should poach to put food on the table.

Amen, brother. :D I can't imagine being so self conscious as to care what people think about you so you kill game illegally while not caring that you are breaking the law by killing illegally. I have saved and survived, personally, because of the fact that I didn't give a damn that people thought I was cheap for living in a two bedroom frame home on 80K a year family income or drove a 20 year old Toyota pick up or didn't wear a Rolex or mow my yard with a John Deere zero turn or whatever. I don't give a damn and I'm getting the last laugh now. I have nearly a half a million in mutual funds 300K of it sending me cash every month in a 72T IRA and the average "baby boomer" of my age, I heard on Fox the other day, has a grand total of 50K saved probably in 401Ks. I can attest that most where I once worked ain't got squat! They're going to be living off social security and not much else, so I hope they can afford the gasoline or diesel for those one ton dualies they're driving and the electricity for those 5,000 sq ft homes they like to brag about when they ain't working anymore. Myself, I'm damned proud I got out of there before I got cancer from the Vinyl Chloride or something. The shift work was really getting to me and now, I hunt and fish whenever the HELL I want! :D But, I ain't too proud to ask for my social security (if it still exists, another thread) in 7 years. After all, I paid my taxes for 35 years, in fact am STILL paying taxes. :rolleyes: Which reminds me, I need to go take care of 650 dollars in property taxes before the end of the month. :rolleyes:

[Cosmoline]

If there's a big quake and people are going hungry, I wouldn't want to be one of the park strip moose! Or a pudgy tourist, for that matter.

Soup kitchens are plentiful in the USA and there is no reason why any American should poach to put food on the table.

In the lower 48, maybe. Up here there's a big issue over subsistence hunting/poaching. Until Alaska created game laws and started enforcing them, natives and locals alike had been pretty much hunting as needed to survive. So the restrictions, esp. for outside hunting interests, created some tension. These days the feds have pretty much taken over regulation of native hunting, and the state regulates non-native hunting. But there are bad feelings both ways. The reality of it is, if you're hungry you need to get food and the growing season is short to non-existent. If you don't have cash money and lots of it, plus a way to get to at least an AC store, you have no choice. You get food or you die. There's no skin color distinction in such matters in real life, but unfortunately because of political resistance there is one law for natives and another for non-natives.

[macFarlaine]

Then or now ? Then yes,you would of died of starvation (Highland Clearances,Potato famine).All English rural villages had the poacher,he was the chap who fed the poor for a few pennies.He was a countryman with all the knowledge one could aquire.Famous village tales of the war of the landowner and his gamekeepers against the wily poacher and his dog spot are still told around the fire in the village pub today.

Good reading:Kenzie The Wild Goose Man.

Today no,we are proped up by our respective governments.

[plumberroy]

i live in a rural area where there are few jobs

Then MOVE! after all we are talking about survial
If You can't afford food How the HELL are you going to afford to move your family stuff pay deposites for rent survive till you get a pay check started
You go and apply for FOOD stamps possibly swinging by the Food bank on the way ya right most of these systems are designed for those that don't want to work If you are If you really want to work and hit a hard spot they tell you you made to much money last month, sorry about your luck! we're only here for illegal aliens and low lifes
I really try to be civil But it pisses me off when people that have never had it rough look down there noses and get on there high horses about people that do have it rough. I started out digging ditches at $5 an hour so I could learn to be a plumber with a wife and 6 year old child paying $400 a month rent utilities and stuff you need to live there is no money to save. even working 60 hours a week a couple days of bad weather and you are F@#%ed Go to the gov. ask for some of your tax money back? nope we need that for the low lifes. Do you know you can catch ducks in a cast net at night and bass and redear and small gators I'll go hungry, my wife and kids won't!!! don't look down your nose at some one till you have walked a mile in there shoes.
IS there justifiable poaching YES if you are truly in need I will help you all I can if I can't help you enough and you still need food for your family I'd loan you a gun and some ammo.on the other hand If I catch some one with a 45k truck 3k gun killing a buck and taking just the head and tenderloins I will make a call to the poacher hotline. I have worked my way from a ditch digger to a maintenance pipefitter in a uaw factory I've road a ten speed bike 13 miles one way to work 10-12 hours a day just to ride 13 miles home to get up and do it again tomorrow I've killed a deer ducks rabbits and other game out of season to feed my family UNTILL you have set in the kitchen and discussed with your wife the fact the choices this week are gas to get to work or food, then look in the living room and see your ten year old playing the one that may go hungry. DON'T GET F#$%ING HOLIER THAN THOU on me because I went out and shot a yearling doe
Roy

[Cosmoline]

ya right most of these systems are designed for those that don't want to work If you are If you really want to work and hit a hard spot they tell you you made to much money last month, sorry about your luck!

This is true. The wellfare systems are designed to encourage poverty, and punish people who are actually trying to get out of the hole. People do better by never taking a dime of gobment money and just making their own way even if it means breaking some laws. That's the way everyone in this country operated until the socialists came to power in the 30's.

[MCgunner]

Yeah, food stamps are for crack heads. If you have ANYTHING worth ANYTHING in your possession, you won't get 'em.

I moved where the work was, personally, and would uproot again if I was forced. Didn't move that far, am a native Texan, but Texas is a big place. I've worked all over the state at one time or another, well, east of the Pecos. Moving don't take that much, just sell out and move! Okay, it takes some work and logistics, you allergic to work? There are lots of yankee transplants from the "rust belt" in Texas. :D

[MCgunner]

Roy, if you're that down on your luck, there are jobs here. Move on down. I'll help ya out with legal game and fish. There is 400 a month rental here, fairly low cost of living or I wouldn't be here, LOL. There are plants hiring up and down the coast, contract companies, and such. Not much in the way of union work, probably why there IS work in the first place, but a job's a job, eh? Lots of pipe fitter work in the plants either contract or company.

[CoRoMo]

If You can't afford food How the HELL are you going to afford to move your family stuff pay deposites for rent survive till you get a pay check started

I started out with nothing, did better, sometimes hit hard times and got back up again, and now I'm doing good. If you have to sale everything you own and move, you do. You don't hang onto things because you can't afford to move them. I don't pity the poor because that is where I came from, and probably still am, but when we're talking that poor, there is a million and one ways to get a meal in this country. ANY local mission, church, shelter provides free meals, no questions asked. Many times they also have a bed or a place on the floor you're welcome to sleep in. You don't have to fill out financial paperwork to see if you qualify, just show up hungry. I won't fault any man for doing the best he can do, but there are so many other ways to feed your family and yourself than buying some ammo, filling up the gas tank, driving out to the hills, and hiking around in the woods looking for food. I just don't see it and I'm sorry.

[oklahoma caveman]

thanks plumber roy. thats exactly the kind of predicament that i was implying when i started this thread.

[Cosmoline]

ANY local mission, church, shelter provides free meals, no questions asked.

That may be so, but personally I'd rather break some game laws than go down that path. I'd almost rather knock over a bank. Once you've given up that last bit of self respect what is there left to live for?

[MCgunner]

BTW, I started out mopping floors at a buck forty five an hour. 5 an hour would have been awesome! :D You don't start at the top, eh? Life is a struggle, that's pretty much a given, unless you're born to money or have an awesome talent with a ball or bat or something or just get lucky. To get it, you gotta work for it, at least if you came from nothing like many of us do and I did. I worked, I studied, and I still found time for some fun along the way. Weren't all THAT bad. :D There were lean times, there were fat. I look back on those days and smile now. Yeah, I was a bit worried about it at the time, but ya know, most of what a guy worries about is STUFF, not survival. It's really hard to starve to death in the lower 48.

It's sorta lean right now, but I've made it far as survival goes. I ain't got a couple of Ferraris in the garage, hell, I don't even have a garage, but everything I have is mine and I make the bills and buy a toy now and then and enjoy myself. It took a lot to get here, but it was worth the effort and it wasn't luck, just hard work. I broke no laws doing it, either. I lived by the rules. I could have a lot more now if I'd have lived a more boring life. Motorcycle racing really is an extravagance. Some of the things I did would make Dave Ramsey have a heart attack, and it all seemed important at the time. :rolleyes:

I guess it's my background and then the education, but I've always had an ethic about game management and even when I was hungry and had deer I could have shot in the summer, I took legal rabbits and a hog instead, along with a lot of yard greens and such and whatever I could scrounge. One summer, I was working for 2.23 an hour counting insects in cotton near Pearsall, Cotulla in south Texas. I lived on a ranch rent free courtesy of the rancher who's cotton we counted and he let me scrounge for food. He TOLD me to take a doe, but I didn't, didn't feel right about that even at the age of 20. I didn't NEED the doe, had enough jacks and cottontail and shot a pig. That was augmented with the occasional bag of ramen noodles. Yumm. :rolleyes:

I lived there sands any sort of AC, but with hot water and cooking facilities. I don't know if you've ever been in south Texas south of San Antonio in the summer, but it does get rather warm there. I was not really used to AC, though, not having grown up with it. Now days, I look back at it and wonder how the HELL I ever survived back then without AC. ROFL!

[glockman19]

I voted YES. A family who is homeless, poor, or otherwise starving IMHO has teh right to hunt for food.

[MCgunner]

So, where does the "right to survive" stop? Does he then have the right to break other laws, like paying for the electricity bill by robbing a bank at gunpoint? I won't go down the slippery slope of ignoring laws and the rights of other people (land owners that pay property taxes, for instance) for survival in a modern society. Now, yeah, if society collapses under the weight of the Muslim hoards, all bets are off. :D

[roo_ster]

I voted yes. There are circumstances where the law, even game law, is an ass.

Currently, I have no cause to do so, as I am doing well enough.

But, if the immediate choice before me was poach or the kids go hungry, anything that would provide quality protein had best keep an eye out.

I have been fortunate enough in life to have never been faced with such a decision.

[Kimber1911_06238]

in a survival situation, yes. in any other situation, probably not

in response to plumberroy's comments: I definitely wouldn't look down my nose at you for keeping your family from starving. In fact, I'd donate venison and fish to make sure that wouldn't happen.

[geekWithA.45]

If every person living below the poverty line

I remind people that in America, 2007, OBESITY is the primary health problem for people below the poverty line.

I for one, don't subscribe to a concept of "poaching".

I -do- believe, however, that we, as humans, hold the world in a state of stewardship, and have a responsibility not to wantonly or foolishly waste the earth's abundance.

The decisions to take game can be more or less consistent with this, and sometimes, one must decide to restrain oneself.

In that light, the primary moral question becomes, "what to do with folks that cannot restrain themselves, or who usually make unwise or unjustifiable decisions?"

[learningman]

I voted yes. I fed our family for a number of years with the deer that I got during hunting season. All the while I was working and trying to dig out of the hole. I would even pick rocks for farmers in the summer for some extra cash. Hell I lived in my car for just shy of two months and took my bath in Big Timber creek while I saved enough money to pay for a hotel to live in while I was working. I took deer without a tag, but only what was needed to get through the lean times. My life has made a big turn around since those days. But if it came to that again then I would do what I felt I must. This is a very "hot" topic and each one of us has to sleep in the bed he made. At the end of the day my family will eat, and I will only take what is needed to serve that end.

[macFarlaine]

Obesity the primary health problem for people living below the poverty line.It really does not make sense,or does it.Presumably you have to eat lot's of food to become obese,lot's of food costs lot's of money ?

[MCgunner]

Yeah, it's a somewhat hot, but fun to discuss topic IMHO.

And, yeah, it's quite ironic that in a country that cries so much about its poor, the number one health problem is obesity. ROFLMAO! That right there should tell ya something about the availability of food in our society. Another irony is that we give so many of the "poor" food stamps so they can sell them for crack. I've been asked at walmart if I wanted to get 30 bucks more food for my money and just give HER cash for the food stamps. :rolleyes: Just lookin' at her, I could tell what she needed the cash for.

And, Cosmoline, I think Alaska is sort of another case scenario. It ain't normal, LOL! I really don't know how the native and other populations in a state that big can hurt the game populations by subsistence hunting, but then, I've seen no numbers on the subject. I know if I lived in the outback there, I'd fish, I'd hunt, I'd eat. I'd do it under the law, plenty of fish there if nothing else. Of course, I guess that only applies mostly along the coast. The interior is another matter. And, if I were surviving in Alaska, I'd be praying for global warming. :D

[f4t9r]

in a survival situation, yes. in any other situation, no.
Its amazing how far off the orginal post some of these threads get.
Anyone put in a bad enough spot would do what they had to do to provide for ones family. I really do not think that is poaching. So the thread should read would you kill a animal or fish without a permit or out of season to provide for your family. For most of us the answer is yes.
I would say the older members here would understand better then the younger. My family had to move for jobs and hunt to feed the Family. Alot of kids today including mine have never had to worry about where the next meal is comming from (not that its not out there). Surviving is one thing and poaching is another in my opinion. If you have never had to worry about a meal or money then you most likely posted that you ride a high horse and would never do anything wrong and curse those that do and Im talking about as far as hunting or providing for your Family goes. I hope you know that if thats the case you have been blessed in your life. Times are quite different from the 50's,60's and even most of the 70's then they are today. Thats what I base my opinion on, The fact that I am old and still old school today.

To answer another post: We are fat because of what we eat and the way we were raised. If people hunted more and had to live off the land there would be a whole lot less fat people and lazy people. It has come to the fact that more people.
"live to eat then people who eat to live"

[glockman19]

geekWithA.45,

Obesity means you are eating maybe overeating if you don't have a thyroid contition.

IF one is starving then poaching defination changes to survival. It is our goal to survive, not to starve.
As a matter of fact I have gone to my local market and asked If I could have some of the pre prepared chickens they are throwing out for use as bait for my lobster nets. They said they are NOT allowed to give away or donate extra food. There are liability issues. Totally rediculous. Throw away good food instead of donating it. of course this all happened because sone homeless person sued and won anlarge settlement because of food poisioning.

[R.W.Dale]

If You can't afford food How the HELL are you going to afford to move your family stuff pay deposites for rent survive till you get a pay check started

Are you serious? If worst comes to worst you use those flappy things on the bottom of your legs. Some have reported good sucess from merely putting their thumb in the air whilst standing next to a public roadway.

A tent with some firewood and food provided by a low paying job beats the crap out of starving to death in a rental property.

I really try to be civil But it pisses me off when people that have never had it rough look down there noses and get on there high horses about people that do have it rough.

NO what cheese me off is whining about how hard things are. I've had it pretty rough and still do at times yet I have NOBODY but myself to blame and I'll be dammed if I'm going to whine to others about it

Life is hard! You'll get nowhere in life sitting idly whining about how tough things are.


I 'm rather surprised this thread openly advocating engaging in illegal activity has stayed open?

http://www.januparts.com/Threadlock%202.jpg

[MCgunner]

NO what cheese me off is whining about how hard things are. I've had it pretty rough and still do at times yet I have NOBODY but myself to blame and I'll be dammed if I'm going to whine to others about it

Life is hard! You'll get nowhere in life sitting idly whining about how tough things are.

Amen!

Ya know, I went through all that to get an education. If I find myself needing more income, I have options. I can substitute teach, 80 bucks a day. My daughter is doing that now, they're crying for subs, also bus drivers. There's always a way, I just don't want a job right now, doing pretty good working on lawn equipment in my shop. Why work when I'm having fun?

[redneckrepairs]

Now i am former LE tho not DOW . I have in fact driven up on a situation where a fella i wanted to talk to about work on my house was skinning an out of season deer when i walked up . He did have 5 kids and a 30-30 , but never in his life as far as i know took a dollar from the welfare system . I found out he had just lost a motor in his work truck ( he was pretty much a handyman and a good one ) . I never " took notice " of any fresh caucus in this situation , and in fact part of his fee was a " junk " car which the motor just happened to fit his work truck .

[oklahoma caveman]

who is advocating anything illegal? its simply a discussion about whether you would have your kids starve or shoot a deer/hog/elk/etc.

and im sure that those of you that are so adamant against this issure have been through the very worst situations that youl ever find on this planet. :rolleyes: no doubt you could be air dropped off in the middle of a deserted island and still find some kind of a paying job and supermarket to support your family. the rest of the population should be more like you:rolleyes:

bottom line is that you never know what you are capable of until placed in that situation but you will do what you must to survive.

[MCgunner]

Hey, I have no problem with the taking of hogs out of season, since there is no season here. :D That's one reason why I don't see that poaching deer is necessary. Besides, a hog trap is more effective and you can be out looking for work while the trap does its thing. Lots of farmers EVEN IN TEXAS would let you set a hog trap even if you weren't needing the meat to survive. There are lots of legal ways, and more effective, than trying to live off deer. I ain't seen a deer all damned season, ROFL! I'd be starving to death by now if I actually was trying to live off venison. My freezer is full of pork, thanks to the trap.

Rabbits are legal all year, so are hogs, and in much of Texas so are squirrel. The bay is FULL of edible protein! You don't even need a boat, just a pole and a cast net for bait. Why would you need to poach a deer???? If you ain't in such a good area, hell, move! There are jobs down here, too!

[borrowedtime69]

the reasons i think that poaching would be justified are as follows:

1. You have to feed your family and you are truely in a dire situation.

2. you are homeless and, insiead of hanging around the city begging for stuff, you deside to go to the wilderness with whatever you have and live off the land. at least you would not be a drain on society and you wouldnt be tempted with booze or drugs. you could actually do things to earn money to get necessities, ie, pelts, pan for gold, carving knick-knacks, etc. that alone would keep you in ammo and flour, the rest of the stuff you need can be gotten from the wild.

- Eric

[marksman13]

Oklahoma Caveman, it sounds like you have already made up your mind about which side of the fence you are on. Sounds like you want everyone to either agree with you or shut the hell up. That's the feeling I get anyway.

[plumberroy]

Thank for the offer but I'm doing all right now. the last time I killed anything because we needed it was 15 years ago I don't do with out much these days and I don't rent. As far as walking and camping that's fine for a man by himself when you have a wife and grade schooler that not a real optionANY local mission, church, shelter provides free meals, no questions asked.
Most small towns don't have missions or shelters I figured why take from people that were not able to get out and get something them self ,in the area I was in the local churches were doing good to help the elderly and disabled. when there aren't many job's they don't get much in the offering plate to work with.
Besides, a hog trap is more effective and you can be out looking for work while the trap does its thing.
Hog trap doesn't do you a bit of good were you don't have hogs I like pork better than venison. squirrels and rabbits may be in season all year long in texas there are a lot of places they are not.I've ate groundhog and pidgeon too As far as life being hard I raised 2 kids worked construction all day and went to school at night for 4 years graduated with 4.0 gpa went from having to hunt for food to making more than most I have plumbing licence in 3 states plus a U.A.W. juorneymans card My point is some times you can have some rough spots along the path of life and you got to do things to get by I have no pity for any one that doesn't try to help them selves I also can over look some one bending the rules to feed his family I would rather see some one shoot a deer than growing or making drugs or robbing some one. the only complait I get from my hunting buddies now is that I don't shoot at 3/4 of the rabbits the dogs bring around to busy enjoying my dogs running the rabbits

[cracked butt]

I'm wondering about how many of the 'holier than thou' bunch on this thread would stop to pick up fresh roadkill to eat or would just keep driving and let it go to waste?

Sure its out of season and the meat is taken in a more legal circumstance, but the end result is the same. I can attest that roadkill deer taste just the same as those taken during the hunting season;)

[MCgunner]

Game wardens around here donate road kill, illegally killed and confiscated animals, what they don't keep, I reckon, LOL. Texas law, you're not supposed to pick the deer up, call and report it hit. I've not ever had to do that. Wife hit a deer once, nice hood damage. :rolleyes: BTW, it is "holier than thou" to obey the law? I mean, yeah, I've gotten speeding tickets. Hell, who don't? But why am I so holy just for following game laws? Is it ethical to disobey them? Everyone on this board likes to complain that stand and feeder hunting is "unethical", but it's legal and the way we hunt here. So, I'm unethical, but "holier than thou"?.....:rolleyes:

[oklahoma caveman]

there are some things that the importance of rises above a state law imho. feeding my children would be one of them.

[Art Eatman]

Any more sarcasm aimed at somebody else's comment, and I'll close this thread. Some of y'all are already over the line of responsible behavior.

Art

[one-shot-one]

aside from a survival situation (stranded) in the wilderness - NO
if you have time and money to hunt then you have time and money to find a job.

[plumberroy]

what I mean by holier than thou statement in referance to some one that has never been in that situation being, judgemental of those who have. as far as hunting over bait ,unless you are glassing and stocking bedded animals your are hunting with bait be it corn you put out or a white oak dropping acorns only differance is weather it grew there or you put it there animals are still there to eat. or you set up on a trail coming or going to food it is still a form of baiting the few people I know that have feeders feed all year round and increase feeding when the weather gets bad for extended periods.
after a bad winter a couple years ago his woods was the only woods I did not find dead deer in after the weather broke.
A round here If you hit a deer the sherriff dep.with give you a tag for a deer you hit. If you don't want it, they have a list you can put your name on they call the first person on the list if that person can't come now they go to the next till some one comes then they start at the next person on the list next time you just call the sherriff's dep. and tell them put me on the list
when I was first married coon hides brought $20-$30 I picked up many off the road to help pay the bills
Roy

[MCgunner]

I remember late 70s, early 80s when coon pelts were gong for that. I ran a trap line one winter and made a few bucks. :D Hell, I had a good job, but money is money! Coon is edible and legal year round here, BTW, but I don't care much for it. Armadillo ain't too bad, though. I've eaten Armadillo AND rattle snake is fantastic fried. A big one has lots of meat on it, a couple of meals.

I've been there, trust me, was early in my life going to school. My parents were working poor and I supplemented the freezer with game when I was a kid, just LOVED hunting. Spent most of my free time in the woods chasing squirrel and rabbits unless I was fishing with grandpa. He'd call nearly every week in the summer and wanna know if I wanted to go.

After college and after getting a job, I never had to worry too much about it. I got laid off in 82, did some crabbing for chump change, then got a contract job a month later, worked for a month on that contract, laid off, got the job I recently lost after 23 years. So, most of my life I've been secure and now I have investments that pay the bills. But, I still remember the struggles. I guess we have more legal to hunt here in Texas than some places. Rabbits are not controlled, nor are hogs. Javelina are 2 per year, but no closed seasons or at least didn't used to be. I don't hunt 'em, may be seasons on 'em now. They are a controlled game species. Fishing's good. Rattlers, armadillo, squirrel outside of east Texas piney woods counties are year round. Often, pecan farms will let you have all the squirrel you want, usually request you use a shotgun. Easy hunting, just lean against a tree and read a book and wait for them to come out. They WILL be there where there are pecans.

I sustained myself for a couple of years in school by hunting, did it all legal. Fortunately, it didn't cost as much for a license back then. My GOD, don't know if I could have afforded a license at today's prices. :rolleyes:

I suppose it's easier here, though, to live off the land, especially with the boom in hog populations, than other states, even than Alaska, it appears. Heck, we even have an alligator season now that we didn't have when I was a kid. You wanna FILL a freezer, take a 12 foot gator. :D You can sell the hide, too.

I haven't even mentioned stuff like crabbing, a mudbug hole I know about (crawdads, Louisiana lobsters), bowfishing for gar, just lots of opportunities here I guess others don't have. Living on the coast is even more bountiful. And, all this without much public land. Lots of public bird hunting, but not much for deer/hog.

[Hobie]

Poaching is illegal hunting. It is "bad" because it is illegal. Hunting might not be bad, for game, for the hunter, for the community, but it might still be illegal and thus would be poaching. If one had a need, caused no harm, would poaching then be bad.

Remember, some immoral acts are legal and some legal acts are immoral...

[AntiqueCollector]

Poaching is a manufactured crime, resulting from the right to hunt being turned into a privilege that is licensed. Similar to how in many states carrying a firearm has been turned from a right into a privilege requiring a license/permit, and it's a "crime" if you do so and do not have that license. Actually, in my state, technically you can legally hunt on property you own without a license, but pretty much all of the other regulations (seasons/etc.) still apply. I sort of like that but think no license at all should be needed. I don't have much problem with regulations/limits made to prevent over hunting but the license aspect bothers me. I wouldn't care if someone illegally takes an animal for reasons of survival/food. Not sure I'd have the same tolerance for those who poach for a trophy though since that comes at the expense of meat for those who need it...in some states though (not sure how many exactly), it's not illegal to take an animal if you need it for reasons of survival.

Those who would say "get a job" have obviously never experienced not being able to get a job despite trying. For example, the local economy around me is crap (primarily service jobs now because manufacturing has been almost eliminated through taxes, regulation and mostly foreign competition) and getting just a retail job can be hard, and you can't support a family with that...and I'd rather see a person hunting or fishing for food to get by than going on welfare.

[Art Eatman]

Don't lose sight of the fact that the rules were generally created by hunters, and codified into law and regulation. WE created the concept of seasons and bag limits. Of legal hunting hours. We did it to bring back game species from the too-low numbers of the early 20th century.

For us, here at THR, there should be a separation of survival hunting (regardless of why it's perceived as a need), and the game hog/commercial thief/immoral-trophy sort of real poaching in the more common meaning.

Art

[MCgunner]

Don't lose sight of the fact that the rules were generally created by hunters, and codified into law and regulation. WE created the concept of seasons and bag limits. Of legal hunting hours. We did it to bring back game species from the too-low numbers of the early 20th century.

Absolutely. If you hadn't have said it, it was going to be my next post. :D Game laws are NECESSARY for the maintenance of game populations at healthy levels. It's been a century and people today don't learn their history. Licensing is taxation, taxation only of the user. If you don't like the tax, don't hunt or fish, but we have to fun wildlife management and research. We also have pitman-robertson taxes on the federal level, federal duck stamps, and such. Every fish hook you buy, every round of ammuntion, every rod or real or spool of monofilament is subject to pitman robertson taxes.

Through some of this taxation, we have federal and state hunting lands. It is NOT necessarily a BAD thing and we, as hunters and outdoorsmen, demanded it to restore game populations.

[paintballdude902]

when mydad was growing up my his friends parents hired a mexican to work at their vinyard

he had a bunch of kids and had trouble feeding them so he shot deer in the vinyard with a .22 to feed his kids
when the merisous had no problem with it because he was doing some pest control

my dad and his friend hunted there with a permit saying they were destroying crops but the mexican never ask permision or anything so it was technically poaching

but now they have ways for people to get free lisenses if they are on welfare or food stamps so he would have been able to do that now but not in the 50's

[AntiqueCollector]

Licensing is taxation, taxation only of the user. If you don't like the tax, don't hunt or fish, but we have to fun wildlife management and research. We also have pitman-robertson taxes on the federal level, federal duck stamps, and such. Every fish hook you buy, every round of ammuntion, every rod or real or spool of monofilament is subject to pitman robertson taxes.

Through some of this taxation, we have federal and state hunting lands. It is NOT necessarily a BAD thing and we, as hunters and outdoorsmen, demanded it to restore game populations.

No, licensing is the taking of a right and replacing it with a privilege. The same way voting was turned into a privilege through the poll taxes which some couldn't afford, the same way carrying firearms has been turned into a privilege in most states. Hunting and fishing (particularly on one's own land) is (or rather was) a right, not a privilege. To say to those who can't (or won't) pay to be given a privilege which is supposed to be a right, is to infringe on their rights the same as the other examples I listed did/are. It was and is not necessary to turn it into a privilege in order to protect the game populations. There could be limits or seasons but no licensing requirements. State or local police are already paid and they could take the job of enforcing the limits/etc.

There were state and federal public lands long before there were these taxes and licensing requirements, they are not necessary for providing those lands. And those taxes, especially on ammo and other gun items, tax non-hunters as well. And it's not the government's job, anyways, to conduct wildlife research and such. Private organizations could do so if it is desired.

And again, to those who say "get a job" to those who illegally hunt for food to get by in bad times, again I will point out that sometimes jobs, or jobs that pay enough, simply are not available. In that case, what would you rather have, a deer or some small game illegally killed, or them living off welfare, funded by your taxes (which may have to go up if the system gets overloaded)?

"The power to tax is the power to destroy."

[Art Eatman]

The Dingell/Johnson and Pitman/Robinson taxes were lobbied for by hunters/fishermen and their groups. It's the primary source of money, besides hunting licenses, for game wardens and wildlife biologists and their surveys.

The work-together efforts have paid off, with such as Ducks Unlimited working with advice from game departments about what areas need protection via land purchase.

Now, in Texas, we have quite a few private groups which associate with the wildlife agency and with universities for habitat studies and all that research.

Anybody from Texas oughta check out the Texas Wildlife Association. While they're oriented toward the larger game ranches, their lobbying efforts and educational efforts work for us little guys as well. Strong legislative voice for landowners' rights. Strong youth hunter program.

And strong on anti-poaching ethics.

[MCgunner]

And again, to those who say "get a job" to those who illegally hunt for food to get by in bad times, again I will point out that sometimes jobs, or jobs that pay enough, simply are not available.

There are retraining programs, trade schools, all sorts of ways to change your line of work if demand flops FOR your line of work. Heck, I was laid off in 82, what were the unemployment rates, near or over 10 percent at the time I think. I did have to relocate down the coast, sell one house, buy another, but I got it done. Now, unemployment is near 4 percent, all time lows.

You may not be able to do what you know how to do. You may have to retrain. You may just have to relocate. You can't live out life by hunting off the land and making no money, legally or not! Get a trade that's in demand, go to school if necessary. I have a net friend (met in person) just graduated nursing school in Las Vegas. He formerly was a soldier, then went to work for HP in California, got laid off when the tech bubble popped. He went to school, GI bill probably helped. Now, he's an RN and they make GOOD money and there is demand. Or, just go where the work is.

In my lifetime (I'm getting old, but I was born well after 1929) there has not been a depression. There have been recessions, but no depression. There is work out there, you just have to qualify it or move to where there is work you are qualified for. Killin' a few out of season deer is more apt to cost you money than make you money. Face up to reality, quit living in Whole Earth Catalogs.

[brknarrow]

a country boy can and will survive. and will depending on his needs for survival

[AntiqueCollector]

There are retraining programs, trade schools, all sorts of ways to change your line of work if demand flops FOR your line of work. Heck, I was laid off in 82, what were the unemployment rates, near or over 10 percent at the time I think. I did have to relocate down the coast, sell one house, buy another, but I got it done. Now, unemployment is near 4 percent, all time lows.

You may not be able to do what you know how to do. You may have to retrain. You may just have to relocate. You can't live out life by hunting off the land and making no money, legally or not!

Don't matter what your training is you won't get a job other than min. wage in a lot of areas, mine is very close to being so. And if those people without jobs or decent paying ones, rent, have no savings, etc., just how do you think they will afford to move across the country? The official 4 percent unemployment rate is a joke, you should visit my locale. There simply aren't well paying jobs here, if you cross the border into NY or such you might, but then the higher cost of living/taxes eats that up quick not to mention the crappy laws. Since a lot of people, myself included, already have guns and lots of ammo, I don't think taking an illegal deer (unless caught) would cost anything hardly. Wouldn't make money either, but it'd save money (not having to buy much food from the store would save much money).

The last statement made me chuckle a little, since I'll be living in the bush in Alaska in the near future, living off the land (gardening, fishing, hunting, etc.) with very little income (no property taxes to worry about where I'll be!) but I will be trapping for income along with beekeeping/etc. if it works out. Some income will be needed even there, but there are ways of making it off the land (and I'm not saying I'll be poaching either, everything will be legal lol). My point is, think outside the standard box when it comes to making a living/and or surviving, but then I'm a real independently minded type. And if you don't think what I plan to do is realistic, I'll point you in the direction of some people are doing it right now.

[MCgunner]

The last statement made me chuckle a little, since I'll be living in the bush in Alaska in the near future, living off the land (gardening, fishing, hunting, etc.) with very little income (no property taxes to worry about where I'll be!) but I will be trapping for income along with beekeeping/etc. if it works out. Some income will be needed even there, but there are ways of making it off the land

And, what do you think would happen if everyone in the world decided to "live off the land" and shoot their food? If it weren't for modern agriculture, our species, all 7 BILLION plus of us, would be probably 6 billion plus over carrying capacity for our habitat. That's how deer almost vanished in the first place! There just simply isn't enough natural resources left and what there is must be managed or it will rapidly disappear.

And, if there aren't any jobs where you are, get the hell outta there and live where there are jobs. You planted like a tree or something? I'd have loved to live in New Mexico, but there's a reason that state only has 3 million people. I ride there to enjoy the state, ride home and go back to work. Live where the work is. I studied fisheries management with the idea that I could work in places like Alaska, but turns out there's more and better paying work as an environmental lab tech in the chemical plants around Texas. I figured, why work for Texas Parks and Wildlife so I can work in the outdoors when I can work for a plant, make enough money to buy a boat and PLAY in the outdoors? The jobs were very competitive with TPW and the pay sucked, so guess what I did? I adapted to the situation. I made sure I had a minor in chemistry once I figured all this out, for one thing. I went into school thinking they just gave you a BS and a job at the end of it, stupid idealistic kid. I spent my days doing BODs and bioassays and running the AA and the GCs and doing wet tests indoors in a lab around obnoxious chemicals, but I made good money, I saved a bunch of it, and I'm happy. I lived below my means and everyone at worked called ME "Grizzly Adams", imagine that, LOL! If you just wanna go up to Alaska and live like Grizzly Adams, go for it. But, they have game laws, too, have to have. They get many more like you up there and they're going to have to restrict limits/seasons, too. LOL! Even in Alaska, they have to restrict the harvest.

[R.W.Dale]

Don't matter what your training is you won't get a job other than min. wage in a lot of areas, mine is very close to being so. And if those people without jobs or decent paying ones, rent, have no savings, etc., just how do you think they will afford to move across the country?

How many weeks would a person have to work at minimum wage in order to buy a bus ticket? You can pull up stakes and move with as little as the clothes on your back. What's with the I can't afford to move crap? You can't afford to stay put. If you own any guns or anything you sell them and buy that bus ticket.

Odiously there are jobs in this country 3 million illegals aren't coming to this country to starve.

If our grandparents did it in the 1930's you can do it much more easily with this country's modern infastructure today

[AntiqueCollector]

And, what do you think would happen if everyone in the world decided to "live off the land" and shoot their food? If it weren't for modern agriculture, our species, all 7 BILLION plus of us, would be probably 6 billion plus over carrying capacity for our habitat. That's how deer almost vanished in the first place! There just simply isn't enough natural resources left and what there is must be managed or it will rapidly disappear.

And, if there aren't any jobs where you are, get the hell outta there and live where there are jobs. You planted like a tree or something? I'd have loved to live in New Mexico, but there's a reason that state only has 3 million people. I ride there to enjoy the state, ride home and go back to work. Live where the work is. I studied fisheries management with the idea that I could work in places like Alaska, but turns out there's more and better paying work as an environmental lab tech in the chemical plants around Texas. I figured, why work for Texas Parks and Wildlife so I can work in the outdoors when I can work for a plant, make enough money to buy a boat and PLAY in the outdoors? The jobs were very competitive with TPW and the pay sucked, so guess what I did? I adapted to the situation. I made sure I had a minor in chemistry once I figured all this out, for one thing. I went into school thinking they just gave you a BS and a job at the end of it, stupid idealistic kid. I spent my days doing BODs and bioassays and running the AA and the GCs and doing wet tests indoors in a lab around obnoxious chemicals, but I made good money, I saved a bunch of it, and I'm happy. I lived below my means and everyone at worked called ME "Grizzly Adams", imagine that, LOL! If you just wanna go up to Alaska and live like Grizzly Adams, go for it. But, they have game laws, too, have to have. They get many more like you up there and they're going to have to restrict limits/seasons, too. LOL! Even in Alaska, they have to restrict the harvest.

I don't think there are very many who have plans to "live off the land" because it is not appealing to most. I'm not particularly interested in making money but rather in being self-sufficient (or at least as close as is possible these days). I don't find hunting to be much of a sport personally, my interest in it is simply to be self-reliant, which gives me a good feeling. Some find it crazy but I enjoy working in the outdoors on things like gardens, cutting wood, etc. as long as it;s for myself. And I've spent the last 4 years or so saving every penny (doing everything from making my own soap for basically free, growing as much as possible in what little space I have during the summer, fishing some though I honestly don't trust the water here enough to eat a lot of fish from it because of pollution, etc.) and doing numerous things to make money (from silver/gold speculating which turned a nice profit (and also gold prospecting but that's a lot of work for little return in my state because there is so little gold) to antique flipping (buying stuff cheap at yard sales and such or even dumpster diving, and selling to dealers and online), precisely so I can get out of here and escape the job trap. I've also collected all the tools (mostly hand tools to avoid needing power/fuel) and a lot of the more expensive building items to build my cabin (windows, stove, etc.) fairly cheaply (and even free at times) by taking my time to track down the stuff at yard sales/auctions/etc.. It's actually rather daunting the costs in moving from one end of the country to another, I suspect I'll spend almost as much on transportation as I will on the land I will buy. No road to the land, any large items will need to go by plane or maybe by snowmobile in the winter, and those bush planes aren't cheap (understandably so given their expenses and risks and such). Sure I could take a backpack of stuff and hitchike across the country, but then I'd be pretty much screwed with no tools and such, all of which would be more expensive to buy up there, and then I'd be forced to take a "normal" job for the first year or two. And despite the lack of jobs here, I have stayed because I know enough people to get connections to antiques dealers (who seem to sell primarily to the rich out of staters who have made my state their playground) and sources for free/cheap tools/supplies/etc. Knowing people and not being a stranger can really help you get by.

Alaska most definately does have game laws and such, but I intend to move to an area where I will (after a year to qualify for residency) be able to get subsistence permits, giving me higher limits and less restrictions, fairly easily (not the tier 2 areas). Actually, seeing the attitudes expressed on other forums btwn. Alaskan sport hunters/fishers versus the subsistence hunters/fishers, has shown me that there are many sport users who evidently wouldn't mind people starving as long as they get their trophies. This is not a slam on sport hunters at all, but when push comes to shove it's interesting seeing how people land. Basically what I'm getting at, is there's a clash between two different kinds of lifestyles in some places (like AK), with one (a fairly small number actually percentage-wise) being those who want to be self-reliant/rely on certain resources for survival, and those who work "normal" jobs to get by but enjoy using those same resources in their spare time (but do not necessarily rely on them for survival).

Odiously there are jobs in this country 3 million illegals aren't coming to this country to starve.

Yes but they don't mind bending or breaking the laws to get by on the low wages they get, or using the welfare system (illegally under false or stolen SS numbers). Lots of them up here, who work on the farms (hard to believe to many but it's true, they're up here this far north) and I suspect a large percentage of them poach for food to get by, or simply steal in the fields/orchards (but I guess the farmers know they make more hiring them despite the losses than hiring locals at liveable wages).

You can't afford to stay put. If you own any guns or anything you sell them and buy that bus ticket.

And then I'd need to buy them again to get by as I want to live in the future, and with inflation, the prices will be higher than what I sold them for earlier. I actually have a fairly large collection of valuable antiques (furniture, non-electric lamps, glass ware, and a lot more) and sure, I could theoretically sell it all and move quicker, but with inflation what it is now (argue official stats all you want but they're wrong, flat out, reality is far worse than they say) and with growing interest in some items it'd be foolish to do so, and better to hold off selling much of it. I sell only a portion of what I find (all of it has been cheap) which is a large part of my income currently (well, actually not now, the winter is the slow season for buying items, but I do sell here and there).

If our grandparents did it in the 1930's you can do it much more easily with this country's modern infastructure today

I think you'll find if you research the Great Depression carefully (being a history nut I have done my share) that a significant percentage resorted to illegal poaching, making of alcohol, etc. Not a large percentage resorted to actual crimes with victims (like outright robbing) but many did "victimless" crimes to get by and in many areas the law turned a blind eye to it (not really the feds, but I know of several examples of local police or sheriffs turning blind eyes to things unless they got complaints, and letting people off with warnings if caught). There may be more technology now to utilize but there are also more laws and regulations (can't just sell pies or home canned foods or whatever from your front yard like many did to help, need a license/inspections/etc. on any sort of business activity like that) and there's far less leniency in the law, and the law has more technology and ability to track now to catch things that many people did back then without much trouble.

[duck911]

My life is more important than *ANY* animals life.

If I am stranded or lost and need to eat to remain alive, I am shooting the first live thing I see.

[MCgunner]

Well I'm self sufficient. I went about it another way, though, living low and SAVING and investing. I don't have to live without electricity OR internet service and worry about hunting for food except for fun. Yeah, it's fun. I can get what I need down the street at the super Walmart when the hogs ain't comin' to the trap or the fishing's bad. I do have to pay taxes, but that's in the budget, too. Save enough, you can achieve self sufficiency. I'd love to live in a remote area, but my wife wouldn't, and frankly, it would get old. And, as I get old, it's nice having health care close by. And, I have a prescription I need to fill now and then if I want to live. When you get into your 50s and you have ailments, well, you think of stuff like that. And, without electricity, it'd be real hard to charge the wife's wheel chair.

I generally can put game and fish on the table at least 50 percent of the meals just hunting and fishing for sport and I do it legally. I have a small garden, but gardening, done right, don't save much. There's fertilizer, 7 dust, peat moss, gas for the tiller, etc. Might as well buy it at the store. :rolleyes. Now, between Alaska and West Texas, New Mexico, believe it or not, I'd go to the desert to survive. I know the edible plants there and game abounds in the desert and mountains, just have to know how to find it. Of course, not much public land in Texas, but New Mexico is 51 percent BLM/national forest. The one problem out there is water and unless you're near a major river, forget fishing. Rather than the desert, I'd rather live off a boat down here. Now, riding out hurricanes might be a problem, but in summer you could run it up one of the rivers or get up one if you know a storm was coming.

I prefer game meat, better for you. That's good enough reason to hunt, but I do it for more than meat. It's almost a spiritual thing with me. It's what I've done since the age of 6 when I got my first Daisy. I was born a sportsman and a sportsman's ethic was instilled in me. There's more to the outdoors than survival. I'd rather enjoy myself in the outdoors, not struggle to survive. Why else would I wade out in freezing water in a mud hole up to my waste in water putting out decoys just to shoot a few ducks? Because I get something almost spiritual out of it, the marsh, the sun up, the early teal, etc. It's more than meat for me. For meat, hell, that's what hog traps are for. Just let the trap do the work while you go about working your garden or fishing or running rabbit snares or something. There are FAR more productive ways to get meat than duck hunting, yet I just love it, rather hunt ducks than deer and there's more meat on a deer.

[AntiqueCollector]

Guess we just have different ideas about this then, but that's okay, I don't mind how others live as long as I can live my lifestyle. I'm not much interested in modern technology (though I will not deny that the internet has been very helpful for me, it's probably made what I want to do possible, by providing a way of selling things for high profits, getting info. and items I need, etc.). But I don't like cities or crowds of people personally, I'll take the woods and nature over civilization any day, I'm much happier outside of cities/crowds no matter what I'm doing, and though modern agriculture may be needed for the population we have now, I don't want anything to do with it myself (including the chemicals used, GMo's, etc.). I just don't like being dependent on others for my survival. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy doing all the stuff I do and will do, and I can understand why some people enjoy hunting as a sport the way they do, but I don't see it as a "struggle" for survival the way I want to do things. I'm a pretty good gardener and could probably survive just off a garden and a small flock of chickens if I had to. I don't use "modern" fertilizers or the like, just natural/organic methods, and I save my own seeds (actually have been breeding a new type of tomato using some russian varieties (for cold tolerance) and brandywine tomatoes (for flavor) for a while now but it's not quite where I want it yet). Basically spent almost nothing (bought a couple packets open pollinated seeds for new varieties I wanted to try) this past year but saved a lot of money. Don't use powered machinery either, just hand tools. Some may say it's too much work, but I get excited every time I work on a garden, and the work just keeps me in shape.:D

You do have a point about being older, I'm still in my 20's so I should have at least a few more decades of being able to live the way I want. Might ease up on things some when I'm older.;)

[Cosmoline]

The last statement made me chuckle a little, since I'll be living in the bush in Alaska in the near future, living off the land (gardening, fishing, hunting, etc.) with very little income (no property taxes to worry about where I'll be!) but I will be trapping for income along with beekeeping/etc. if it works out. Some income will be needed even there, but there are ways of making it off the land (and I'm not saying I'll be poaching either, everything will be legal lol). My point is, think outside the standard box when it comes to making a living/and or surviving, but then I'm a real independently minded type. And if you don't think what I plan to do is realistic, I'll point you in the direction of some people are doing it right now.

[MCgunner]

Guess we just have different ideas about this then, but that's okay, I don't mind how others live as long as I can live my lifestyle.

Let us hope that freedom in this country continues for a long, long time. Or, when the Muslim hoards come, we'll all be in Alaska shooting Caribou to survive. LOL! Well, not me, I'm headin' west. I know some spots that are VERY remote. I'll likely get there, though, and there'll be a tent city. :rolleyes:

I once thought some the way you do, not sure that everyone doesn't go through that that enjoys the outdoors and self sufficiency, until I came to the realization that man is not an individualist by nature. We are a social species, live in groups, specialize in jobs for the group. That's how we got to be where we are as an apex predator. We'd never held off the predatory species in Africa were we all lone predators.

Good luck, hope you do okay and don't go crazy out there on your own. Me, I'd miss friends and, of course, family.

[learningman]

Its amazing to me how one question can bring out so many passionate answers. We all do the things that we think are right and neccisary for survival. I mentioned that I had taken animals without the proper tags or permits. I did that thinking that was the only option I had available to me at the time. Hell I was still in high school and was trying to make life just a little easier for my parents by providing some extra meat. I can say for a fact that I took just what was needed to help out. Having added some 20 plus years to my life I can still say that I did what I thought was right at the time. We can argue right or wrong, good or bad, or legal vs illegal all day long. In the end its the individual who has to bare the burden of his/her dicision at the end of the day. The majority of use are blessed with plenty to get us by, I can count myself as one of those now. Those who poach for profit should hang by their nether region. Those who do so under the premis that its for their survival should know that there are concequences for their actions and be willing to pay the man when all is said and done. I think it would be great to live in an area where there is such an abundance of different wildlife as some of you have. For us it was basically deer. I've had a very interesting year, lots of changes( most of them good) and I usually don't get to phlosophical with anyone but my wife, so I say lets hope we all have full freezers this year and remember the real reason we hunt. I'll agree with McGunner that for me its kind of spirtual. Nothing beats the view of seeing the sun come out over the Contenetal Divide and taking that big first breath of sunlit air. Good hunting to all.

[eliphalet]

I think one would need to walk in another's shoes awhile to make the judgment as to the justifiable or not of their taking a animal.

[rocklocker2]

eat a coyote.use the Korean cookbook,woking the dog

[rocklocker2]

If ya have to poach something ,make it an EGG

[harbinger_j]

Maybe instead of poaching you should just shoplift from the grocery store. There are many family services and charity organizations out there if you can swallow your pride and ask for help. Your fellow man is usually willing and able to help so that you don’t have to break any laws. There are many seasons and varmints in most states so that you can hunt legally most of the year, to supplement your income/or lack of one.

BTW I voted no.
If it was pure survival and you had no way to reach society then I don't think anyone would even consider that poaching.

[MCgunner]

Maybe instead of poaching you should just shoplift from the grocery store. .

Excellent. :D If you're going to break the law anyway, why should you have morals? You can justify ripping off Walmart a thousand ways. They hire illegals, they don't have health care for their workers, they destroy small town business, they're anti-union (and what business isn't?), yadda, yadda, yadda. Does that make it legal or right?


BTW I voted no.
If it was pure survival and you had no way to reach society then I don't think anyone would even consider that poaching.

Good point. My yes vote was based on end of time, SHTF, various goofy topics seems gun people like to discuss and justify their AR and AK purchases on. :rolleyes: You know, Road Warrior. I didn't think about the survival thing. But, in the case of Road Warrior, there is no law, so how could there be "poaching?" Hell, in RW, they were killing each other over gasoline, of all things. I ain't gonna kill a man over gasoline just because I lost my job and can't afford to fill up. :rolleyes:

[Art Eatman]

Seems to me we've drifted off into other arenas that don't relate to the beginnings of this thread. Not particularly wrong, but too much drift...

It'll come up again. Rest assured of that.

:D, Art