[Boats]

I look at the 1911 as being the pinnacle of autoloader design.

It comes in three to five or more basic sizes depending on how one counts.
It can be regular capacity or high capacity.
It is currently chambered in the "Big Four" auto defensive cartridges; .45ACP, 9mm, .40S&W, and 10mm, not to mention that .38 Super ain't so bad in its own right.
It can be made match accurate or a deadly competent fighting gun, and sometimes both in the same example.
It can, and has been, made in "exotic" materials such as stainless, titanium, aluminum, and yes even polymer.:D
It has been the basis of a double action pistol.
It has been the main ingredient in a gas operated pistol.
It can be finished to be as corrosion resistant as any gun would need to be. There is nothing preventing anyone from giving it a tennifer process but maybe the EPA.
One can hang all the lights and lasers one may wish to off of one.

So what does anything that followed it do that a 1911 cannot do in a defensive autopistol? The biggest shortcoming I perceive is the cost of getting a significant portion of many of the above "features" into the same example at a "reasonable" price.

I am not really trolling here, please respond seriously.

[444]

I agree, the 1911 is the pinnacle of defensive handgun design. It has been considered the ultimate for many years. MANY years. It is the deisgn by which all others are judged. In threads extolling the virtues of the lastest guns out, they are always compared to the 1911. Imagine if you had a car that was dsigned in early years of the last century that is still considered to be the best. The best off road car, the best race car............... This is what we have with the 1911, it is THE Bullseye gun, it is THE action shooting gun, it is THE defensive gun. It seems to me that everything since the 1911 is designed to be safer for novice operators. Newer guns are designed to work for the lowest common denominator.
There have been some very good guns designed since the 1911. But IMO, none that have provided any feature to upstage those encorporated in the original 1911.

[Ian11]

I can't choose because I don't believe in either. You're asking people to be either 1911 true believers or people who loathe the 1911 design. And for the vast majority of people here in THR I don't believe that they are either.

1. Aluminum framed and polymer pistols are prefered by many in Law Enforcement for day to day carry. I believe many were glad to turn in their 36-40 oz DA revolvers for 24-34 oz autos. Citizens and LEO's alike also love the plethora of easy to carry autos.

2. Both modern autos and 1911's are equally effective. The level of training an individual has with the weapon is the only true variable. (IMO)

3. A high capacity pistol is a big plus in certain situations.

4. Not everyone is the same. Some people can shoot 1911's real well and some can't. Just like some can shoot Glocks well and some can't.

5. I really like the simplicity of many modern defense pistols like Glocks, SIG's, Walthers, and others. There's something to be said about less parts to fuss with.

6. Can't repeat this enough, the 1911 will be obsolete when other modern autos are obsolete.

7. The more the merrier.

That's all I want to say about that for now. The 1911's a great design and I appreciate it for what it is. And really, I can't vote for either.:uhoh:

[WonderNine]

So then that would make the Browning Hi-Power the pinnacle of guns. More firepower and no grip safety. :D

[1911Tuner]

No...Nothing that lasts that long is obsolete. Look at the '98 Mauser,
and look at a M-77 Ruger. There is very little difference there. The
reason is that the basic Mauser design is very hard to improve upon.
Better steels and the ability to hold tolerances closer with modern
manufacturing processes...Yes. Superior design? Hard to pull off.

The other designs aren't superfluous either. There are some very good
ones out there. I am especially fond of the Sigs and H&K's...old and new,
but their ergonomics aren't as user friendly...for my hands anyway,
and just like most modern bolt-action rifles were heavily influenced
by the Mauser, most modern autopistols, on close inspection, show
themselves to have a lot of Browning in the woodpile.

With the exception of one P-38 that my father took from a German
officer in the Ardennes, all the autopistols that I own are 1911's.
All other handguns are Smith & Wesson revolvers...but I'm a hard case,
and too old and set in my ways. All my rifles are bolt-action, except
for one M-1 Garand that seldom sees any use. In this light, I guess
it's possible that I, MYSELF..am approaching obsolescence.;)

Cheers!
Tuner

[Feanaro]

I don't know if it's the best or if all after it were superfluous(I know I prefer it but that's a subjective thing) but it's definately not obsolete. I do tend to lean more towards it being better than anything else over it being obsolete. But I don't think it's a fair question because while someone may not think it obsolete they may also not agree with it being the greatest pistol. The odds are stacked so that there will be more "bests" than "obsoletes" because most people, even those(intelligent people) who hate it, don't think it's obsolete.

[stans]

The 1911 is almost as obsolete as oxygen. I do think the swinging link and unsupported chamber are a bit of a handicap when it comes to heavy calibers such as 10mm and 45 Super. Just my opinion.

[New_comer]

My opinions:

- It's a great "showcase" gun. Put in all the bells and whistles available to make it sparkle even brighter than New York's New Years' Ball. Definitely would be the talk of the gun club for a long time to come...

- I never liked the grip safety -- tape it down? Then it's no longer a 1911

- The barrel link design has definitely been superceded by the linkless Peters Stahl type, which IMHO is 'not' a 1911.

- Everything evolves. The 1911 milspec has been a great foundation for all the other later gun makes, which obviously had in every step improved on the original, by addressing on the old one's "shortcomings". DA trigger, drop safety, linkless action, decocker, dual recoil springs, bushing-less, no grip safety, and maybe the mag safety ...

- But despite these grievances, I STILL WANT ONE!! :D:D:D

[only1asterisk]

There have been improvements since the 1911, but to say that it is obsolete is a bit like say engines without variable valve timing are obsolete.
The definition of obsolete (according to Cambridge) No longer used or needed, usually because something newer and better has replaced it. Model T Fords and Commodore computers are obsolete, the 1911 is a better seller in the civilian market now than ever before. It's about as obsolete as blue jeans.

David

[Son of John]

Can't argue with the success of this pistol. Don't know why the military abandoned it after 75+ years of good service. The big, bad .45 has put 'em down all over the world when it had to.

I'm more of a revolver guy and my eyes don't light up as much as some of yours over "old slabby" because it is a very common piece out there. I'd say the most recognized handgun in the world. I guess that is a measure of greatness, isn't it ?

[Sean Smith]

Neither option is correct, but the second one is closer to the truth.

A shocking number of "modern improvements" are actually regression to a less useful form.

[Ky Larry]

This is not very fair to all the non-1911's. When the Wunder-9's have a 100 year track record this will be easier to judge. I'm sure that 100 years from now, people will still be shooting the 1911.

[clubsoda22]

where's the "It's all good selection"

[10-Ring]

At some point, a handgunner will gravitate towards the 1911 and give it a try. Some will keep going, some will find handgunne's mecca. Me, I like the 1911, but haven't found the right one to add to my collection yet

[Deadmarsh]

the best fighting handgun ever produced...period

Dead

[Smoke]

It will take some significant cahnges in handgun design and manufacture before I declare the 1911 obsolete. Its and probably always will be my weapon of choice.

But everything else is not superfluos (sic). there are places for a DA/SA, DAO, composite, etc.

Sigs are nice guns, I like them alot, they just aren't the right gun for me. The 1911 is not the right gun for others.

[Don Gwinn]

False choice. I like the 1911, but you can't tell me that the lightness and simplicity of a Glock are superfluous. Or whatever it is that makes my SIG 220 so reliable (and so simple to take down that it made me think my Glock was "too complicated" when I first tried it.)

I don't think anyone would argue that the High Power's simpler construction, better ergonomics and higher capacity are superfluous.


Another thing to remember about the 1911 is that as good as it is now, that's 90-some-odd years of design changes tested in a lot of battles. It darn well should be the pinnacle of design!

[BHPshooter]

I don't think anyone would argue that the High Power's simpler construction, better ergonomics and higher capacity are superfluous.

You'll get no argument from me.
I AM a 1911 fan, but don't own one yet, for a few reasons. Mainly, the cost and the "out-of-box" reliability factor. My BHP has functioned absolutely flawlessly since day one, and I think that for the kind of money one has to pay for a "name brand" handgun today, you ought to get a performer.

So, taking all of this into consideration, I can't really vote for either.

Interesting thread, though.

Wes

[Sean Smith]

Mainly, the cost and the "out-of-box" reliability factor.

The cost is a kind of funny comment, since all the new BHPs I see are more expensive than most factory 1911s. And reliability is no worse than a BHP unless you buy a crap brand.

BTW, I think the BHP is neato. I want one once my budget recovers from my current 1911. :D

[Cal4D4]

Original 1911 with original spec hardball ammo is about as adequate a combat handgun as there ever has been. In good condition, reliability is second to none. The design does not have any of the problems DA autos have had - breaking hammer blockers, sticky/rusting firing pin safety mechanisms, decocker breakage . No trigger reset problems like occasionally found on Glocks(can't say anything else against them, as long as you accept the trigger). The ammo starts at .45 and really does not need more expansion to prevent overpenetration. The design can tolerate a fair amount of dirt if set up for combat accuracy.

[dsk]

Here we go, another "is the 1911 obsolete?" post. Those of you who think the 1911 is obsolete and not worth having are more than welcome to your opinion. It just means more 1911's for me. :)

[faustulus]

I think the 1911's have survived so long because they can be so easily modified and kept up to date. Things like ramped barrels and polymer frames show just how versitile this weapon is.

[BHPshooter]

The cost is a kind of funny comment, since all the new BHPs I see are more expensive than most factory 1911s. And reliability is no worse than a BHP unless you buy a crap brand.

Forgive me if I ruffled any feathers, as that was not my intention.

In my area, 1911s from the popular and "reputable" companies, like SA, Kimber, Colt, etc. are around $800-900. My HP was $587, out the door.
I guess it depends on the area. Where do you live? Maybe I'll move there when I get into 1911s!

Wes

[Keith]

A new Kimber Custom II (the basic 1911 design) retails for $550 to $600. The basic Springfield generally retails for a few bucks less.

You're confusing the loaded models (stainless, night sights, "melt" treatment, etc), with the basic 1911 design, which are quite reasonably priced.

Keith

[45King]

I can't vote either way. The 1911 is my favorite handgun, but some people just can't shoot 'em well.

I have to agree with Ian11's statement that the 1911 won't be obsolete until all the current guns are obsolete. That is, when someone comes out with some sort of practical engergy beam weapon, then ALL cartridge arms will be obsolete...but still fun.

[krept]

The 1911 is awesome... and works well for what it was intended.

Now, I think it can improve a little... if you can get near match accuracy (eg HK Tactical) with a bushingless and linkless design... why not go that route?

Why have so many modern designs gone towards external extractors?

One thing, however, that I would really like to see on a 1911 is the paddle style magazine release.

Again... 1911s have worked just fine without these things, so if it ain't broke, why fix it?

a: to make it "better."

cheers