Bad LEO encounter, need advice please


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Devonai
July 22, 2003, 04:33 AM
Please read the following story carefully, as the devil is in the details.

As I have mentioned a few times in other threads, I am a plainclothes armed courier. I carry a customer's valuables to the bank so that they don't have to risk their own employees. One of our clients is a movie theatre in the greater Boston area. Late last night I arrived to collect the day's take and transport it to the night deposit.

I stopped in the theatre's parking lot to fill out the necessary paperwork for the upcoming pickup. On my way in I'd gone a little too fast around a corner and squealed my front tires, which need to be replaced soon. I took note of an SUV parked about 200 yards away with it's lights on, isolated from the rest of the parking lot (this is a huge parking lot). I always take note of suspicious vehicles as I don't wish to be robbed.

Before I could start to fill out my form, the SUV began to cross the parking lot and came right up to my vehicle. It was poining straight at my driver's side, and behind the lights I could make out neither the driver nor the plates. I suspected that this may be the local police officer hired to do the standard security detail at the theatre, but being unable to identify any markings, plates, or details about the driver I decided to pull away. I headed to a more brightly lit part of the lot, and was able to confirm that there were no markings on the SUV and it bore civilian plates. I exited the parking lot and it followed me. I drove down the highway for about 45 seconds, waiting to see if hidden blue lights or flashing headlights came on. They did not. At this point I had to err on the side of caution, and called my dispatcher. I asked the dispatcher to call the local police department to find out if this was indeed a cop. This exchange was going to take a few minutes, so I let the vehicle pace me while my dispatcher made the call. I make a U-turn a couple of times because I didn't want to get too far from the theatre. I had asked my dispatcher to have a local marked cruiser meet me back at the theatre and had no desire to try and describe a different location over the phone.

Also not wanting the SUV to be able to draw along side me, I ran two red lights during the course of the "pursuit," which never exceeded 30 miles per hour (45 zone). The highway was deserted at the time, BTW.

At last, the SUV broke away and headed back in the direction of the theatre. I waited at another location until the dispatcher confirmed that there was a local cop waiting for me back at the theatre... the one who was driving the SUV.:banghead:

Everything that I did, besides the questionable sharp turn which was in fact the initial cause of this incident, was within the guidelines for couriers set forth by my company. When being pursued by a suspicious vehicle, you are to call dispatch for help and arrange for police to meet you nearby. You are not to stop for any reason other than, say, you just pulled into a Santa Monica street market.

That being said, when I arrived back at the theatre, boy did I ever get read the riot act by the officer. I respect cops who act in a professional manner, but this guy was everything but professional to me. He yelled the entire time, refused to listen to a thing I had to say, and responded to what few things I said with a mixture of sarcasm and indignation. He was aware of my reason for acting as I did but regarded my explanation as "crap." I responded with calm courtesy and never said anything argumentative or confrontational. After all, there may have been a dash camera at work. Positing that I was lucky he didn't pull my license, he let me go with a stack of moving violations amounting to $150, or as I think of it, $1320 over the next three years thanks to insurance.

I intend to fight this in court, and heres why:

1. I could not identify the SUV as a police vehicle, and in fact it was the officer's personally owned vehicle. It was not equipped with grill-mounted blue lights, a rotary blue light, or alternately-flashing headlights, all of which I would have pulled over for (no dash cam either :mad: ).

2. I had a reasonable belief that I was being targeted for a crime, based on the behavior of the SUV and my specific instructions from the company's courier manual.

3. I was therefore justified in breaking those traffic laws as a means of self-defense. If I had pulled over any bad guy would have easily had the jump on me.


I welcome criticism greatly as I need to know what I could have done better, and how to conduct myself when the court hearing comes up. Please be honest.

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Jim March
July 22, 2003, 05:04 AM
You did fine. This cop needs to be brought under control. ASAP. File a complaint with his department. Tell the local media what happened. Make *noise*.

This idiot acted exactly like a criminal in all respects.

When you go to court, you need to bring your dispatch logs...or the actual dispatcher, if possible. That's proof you were evading criminal attack.

DrPsycho
July 22, 2003, 05:15 AM
Warning: my encounters with LEO have never been pleasant, and I currently hold little respect for them. (I have been similarly harassed over a 'squeaking around a corner' incident too)

Yeah, what Jim said - try to get a the name of the dispathcer you talked to on the phone, and copy of the audio. I assume you were alone, if possible try to get witnesses or as much evidence as possible. Remember, the cop will change his story in court, and guess who the judge will listen to?

I had no idea LEO were able to act in that capacity in their privately owned vehicles.

Kaxter
July 22, 2003, 05:58 AM
I also had a terrible experience with a LEO. I was driving down main street as normal and saw Rail Road flashing lights and the arms were down, I came to a stop and waited. I waited some more, waited more, and after about 5 minutes and NOTHING was coming I decided to pull into the center lane and go through the crossing...well 2 minutes later I got pulled over. The cop said he saw me "FLY" through the RR crossing and speed off. I told him that I had been waiting for over 5 minutes and nothing was coming and assumed that it was a glitch in the system. I also asked him if he had seen this and he said no, and he had just turned the corner and saw me do it. I said "and you too went through the tracks, and I assume you saw no train" He said "It doesnt matter if there was a train or not, you broke the law" He gave be a Careless and Imprudent Driving ticket, a ticket for expired tags ( 1 month expired, my fault totaly, it had just slipped my mind), and a ticket for failure to obey a traffic signal. I am going to court in 3 weeks, wish me luck

Kaxter
July 22, 2003, 06:00 AM
And yes, I think you should take it to court, you did nothing wrong at all.

Waitone
July 22, 2003, 09:27 AM
Go to court and bring an attorney with you.

Without legal representation in a court you are nothing more than swinging meat.

Seems to me you company would have a lawyer that deals in this sort of thing.

Nathaniel Firethorn
July 22, 2003, 10:04 AM
Given where you were and when it was, the cop prolly was undercover, and looking for something to go down. Whatever he was looking for, he thought you were it.

I've had the similar experience of inadvertently separating a cop from a motorcade that was taking a Mafia don (no, not the governor this time ;) ) to trial. Cops don't like it when you mess them up in a high-profile way. Cost me a tounge-lashing and $130 in fines I didn't deserve. :banghead:

So, my bet is that that's the motivation. He didn't like to screw up publicly.

And the motivation provides the strategy. Give him the choice of rither (a) doing what you want him to do or (b) having said screw-up go a lot more public.

I'd suggest talking to an attorney, preferably your courier company's attorney. Maybe they can suggest to the prosecutor that he wants to drop the stack of tickets. Or else there's going to be a large and very public stink, involving the bank, the bank's insurers, the courier company, and the press, that the police are harassing bank employees for doing their job.

- pdmoderator

Edward429451
July 22, 2003, 10:30 AM
You didn't follow proper response procedure. You're supposed to pull over immediately and slowly exit the vehicle keeping both cheeks where he can see them. It helps if you loosen your pants before exiting vehicle so when you get out the pants fall to your ankles, then you can walk backwards towards him to within penetration distance. Then wait for the command to 'assume the position'

BOHICA.:banghead:

Sarge
July 22, 2003, 10:59 AM
I think in most states it would require a bona-fide emergency in progress to justify the fracture of the various traffic laws you described- not even counting the driving antics that drew his attention to you in the first place. Being tailed by a cop in an unmarked unit will generally not qualify as justification for disobeying traffic laws.

Is your courier vehicle plainly marked, or registered to a courier company? If unmarked, the cop had to run the plate, which can take a few minutes- assuming DOR wasn't down as usual. He was well within his job description to stay on you until he knew what was going on. When the dispatcher advised him what was up, he obviously broke contact and went to where he could contact you without having to worry about how many little old ladies you would mow down while running red lights.

Actually, you're lucky you weren't intercepted by uniforms and yanked out of the car at gunpoint. And as far as the dressing-down you received- what did you expect? A safe driver award? Based on what he saw, I can also understand why he wasn't terribly interested in what you had to say on the matter. You chose a course of conduct, and certain courses of conduct have predictable consequences. End of story.

Edward429451
July 22, 2003, 11:05 AM
See what I mean?:rolleyes:

No 'for the children' Sarge?

org
July 22, 2003, 11:16 AM
Where in the job description for police officers is the instruction to "administer tongue lashing"? The police officer's job is to "serve and protect." He's not your father or boss.

Whatever happened to "Please sign here, have a nice day?" Some of these guys watch too much TV.

Graystar
July 22, 2003, 11:28 AM
Being tailed by a cop in an unmarked unit will generally not qualify as justification for disobeying traffic laws. Maybe not, but being tailed by someone you believe to have criminal intent against you could very well be. The law does not say you have to put yourself in danger, and allow yourself to be victimized. The law is NOT above your personal well being. That's what "justification" is all about.

I can usually see the problems that people will come across when they ask this sort of question. In my personal opinion, I think you have viable defense.

Ideally you should have a criminal lawyer but a lawyer could cost more than the fines and insurance. A consultation with a lawyer, however, will be less...maybe even free...and should help. He may be able to point you to previous rulings in similar cases that were favorable to the defendant. That would give you precedence.

The lawyer can also point you to the justification laws, which you should read. When you explain what you did, try to put it in the same language style as the law.

For example, here in New York we have:

"35.05 Justification; generally.

...use of physical force, conduct which would
otherwise constitute an offense is justifiable and not criminal when:

2. Such conduct is necessary as an emergency measure to avoid an
imminent public or private injury which is about to occur by reason of a
situation occasioned or developed through no fault of the actor, and
which is of such gravity that, according to ordinary standards of
intelligence and morality, the desirability and urgency of avoiding such
injury clearly outweigh the desirability of avoiding the injury sought
to be prevented by the statute defining the offense in issue."

Key words and phrases would be "emergency measure", "urgency", "outweigh", and others. So I would say something like "Your honor, I consider my action to be an emergency measure due to the urgency of the situation, as I felt the gravity of the situation outweighed the statutes which I violated. I believe this is so because..."

You get the idea.

And don't forget to raise any questionable issue during the trial. If you don't then the issue cannot be raised on appeal.

Good luck!

brownie0486
July 22, 2003, 11:33 AM
I just love when non-LE's put theit two cents worth in and don't have a clue as to procedure and rules of engagement, then make sattirical comments about how one should have exited the vehicle.

If the courier had not run the red lights [ endangerment to the public ], he may have escaped with no ticket at all.

The courier could have stopped at the red lights and waited like normal, watching the driver of the following car for signs of egress at the light before fracturing the mv laws was necessary.

That reaction [ to running the lights ] may indicate ones nervousness without real evidence the pursuit vehicle intended to do harm. Over reaction on the couriers part me thinks here.

The tongue lashing was unnecessary after returning to the lot, but then only cops make mistakes according to some here. Couldn;t have anything to do with the couriers actions now could it?

It's not what people know, it's what they think they know that they react to. The courier overreacted in some ways and seems to have been diligent in following his prescribed procedures in other actions.

Let me ask the naysayers of LE's here a question.

Same scenario, but the courier runs the stop light and hits a family of 4 broadside killing everyone in the car. Think he should have run the lights?
Attitudes reflected here toward LE may be somewhat different if that had occured hey boys?

Taking every opportunity to make the police look like they are gestapo and always wrong in this section by some lends itself neither to credibility nor objectivity on the posters part but they seem to crawl from the woodwork to lament the injustices of the LE community.

If one were objective in his responses he may be taken just a little more seriously, instead we get another round of doom and gloom over a police action that was justified, yet no comments about the couriers actions possibly being overreactive or flat out wrong.

Way to go there sir, you have once again increased and perpetuated the us vs them attitudes so prevalent in your postings where LE are concerned with nary an objective statement anywhere in your reply.

Garystar: He was not in imminent danger at any time, that won't hold water in court and you know it. Where was the danger? He was being followed, does the act of being followed and what MIGHT happen become endangerment? Hardly think so, that statute, though valid in other instances won't wash here. If the cop had alighted from the vehicle at one of the red lights, then he would be able to articulate he was in fear of harm, until then, he has no business violating the mv laws and endangering the public in doing so.


Brownie

Erik
July 22, 2003, 11:49 AM
What Sarge said, basically.

What Brownie0486 said re not running the lights.

Sounds like your occupation has the potential to place you in conflict with various laws on occassion. That said, you should expect that when it does you will face the consuences, regardless of what your company thinks about it, policy wise. When you don't, be sure to post about how the cops let you slide.

Intune
July 22, 2003, 12:04 PM
Naw, no double standard here. Let's try this on for size, shall we? Go to your local cop shop right around shift change. Better yet, a favorite watering hole. Pick one out and begin to tail him. Watch what happens. Good luck and whatever you do DO NOT have a weapon on you of any type and do EXACTLY what they say. Your life could very well depend on it.

As soon as you squeeled those tires you deserved everything you got. And more! You're lucky he went light on ya, CITIZEN

:rolleyes:


That would be a great way to rob you wouldn't it? Block you in, high beams on holding some sort of "badge."

brownie0486
July 22, 2003, 12:21 PM
Intune:

You think the cop would run lights endangering the general public? Didn't think so.

If he was running red lights, he wasn't blocked in now was he? And if one knows how to drive when something looks hinky, you never leave yourself vunerable to being blocked in at lights, stop signs, etc but leave an escape route you can use should you need it.

Even when normally driving around one woud heed that advise and not allow a blocking action by leaving a car length between yourself and the car in front of you.

BTW--I have followed cops, thats what I do, I follow people for a living. Never see one yet run lights trying to avoid the tail. That would be breaking the law and endangering the public now wouldn't it?

If the poster is a courier for the bank, he is presumed armed [ though he doesn't mention it ]. If armed, does he not have the means available to protect his A$$ IF the following vehicles driver got out at one of the lights while he waited for the green?

He overreacted to the tail and broke several mv laws in the process. Is this the sign of a pro? Don't think so.

Brownie

bogie
July 22, 2003, 12:31 PM
Brownie, late at night, the average intersection isn't gonna be too busy. If I were looking at a possible robbery attempt, I'd keep moving, but in a relatively safe and prudent fashion - i.e., if there's cars in the intersection, slow down, and wait until they roll the sidewalks up again... But I don't know if I'd stop my small Mitsubishi so that a possible assailant, armed with a large SUV, could disable it.

G&R Tactical
July 22, 2003, 12:35 PM
.

brownie0486
July 22, 2003, 12:37 PM
Those facts may be true as stated, however, his perception and fear of an armed robbery [ alone, without supporting evidence ] does not give him reason to violate the laws of the road.

As to entering an intersection late at night on a red light, saw a fireengine on the way to a car accident at 1am blow the light and kill a driver who had the green light and right of way.

The firefighters statement was the same thing you suggested about late at night. Doesn't wash as if it can happen, it will.

If he had killed someone by violating traffic laws on a presumption he'd be looking at more than a ticket and A$$ chewing don't you think?

Brownie

hops
July 22, 2003, 12:38 PM
MODS: Not sure how my post ended up under G&R Tactical. Interesting system glitch.

Oh, I think if I were being followed by a vehicle that is not a marked police car, I'd get a wee bit paranoid too.

About 10 years ago, a woman in a Jeep Wrangler did not turn left properly and ran her front right tire in to my car's left rear passanger door and kept going. I chased her down. She finally pulled in to a parking lot - where she worked about 3 miles down the road. I confronted her, Told her what happened, show her my car's white paint on her front right tire to prove my point. Asked her why she did not pull over, like I signaled her to do. She replied 'Because I tought you was some crazy person trying to harm me.'

So I find it quite reasonable, when pursued by a suspciously behaving vehicle, that a reasonable person is going to think the worst and think self-preservation first.

Take it court. A reasonable judge should rule in your favour, especially in your line of work.

brownie0486
July 22, 2003, 12:49 PM
hops :

If he gets that nervous at being tailed, perhaps he should find different work. He is supposedly armed and trained isn't he? He seems to have followed procedure by notifying dispatch and requesting LE presence meet him.

There's another rub to the naysayers of LE on this board. People rag on the cops but then they are the first to call for their assistance at the same time.

His employment may also take some of the responsibility if, as he states, their policy is to not stop for anything when he believes he is being followed. He may have been following their guidelines, but in reality the guidelines should not be suggesting they break the law under his circumstances.

The cop did one bad thing and lost his temper and objectivity while A$$ chweing the courier. Everything else, as posted, shows no wrongdoing on the cops part.

Call em like you see em.

Brownie

Intune
July 22, 2003, 12:59 PM
brownie0486 said:

"You think the cop would run lights endangering the general public? Didn't think so."

No, I think a cop would bring a ton of heat down on you when he felt endangered and you would be spread-eagle on the pavement.


"If he was running red lights, he wasn't blocked in now was he?"

No. And the high beams weren't on and he didn't flash a badge. I said that would be a great way to rob the guy.

"BTW--I have followed cops, thats what I do, I follow people for a living. Never see one yet run lights trying to avoid the tail."

Do you do it stealthily or aggressively? You may be so good that they never notice you.



"If he gets that nervous at being tailed, perhaps he should find different work.

He is doing exactly the type of work to be nervous at a tail.


"Those facts may be true as stated, however, his perception and fear of an armed robbery [ alone, without supporting evidence ] does not give him reason to violate the laws of the road."

I am throwing the B.S. flag on this one. A lady and her kids are at a red light and thugs come to her window with bats & chains & she can't run the light? On what planet?


:rolleyes:

Devonai
July 22, 2003, 01:15 PM
Brownie, why are you addressing me in the third person? I started this thread, don't you think I'm going to read the responses? Speak directly to me.

First of all, thanks to those who put in words of support. Thanks, too to those who have stated the opposing viewpoints. Your criticism is important.

To clarify a few points, firstly those red lights that I ran I did cautiously, slowing to about 25 miles per hour. I did not want to allow the SUV to draw along side me. Again, there very few other cars on the road at that time and none visible when I went through the intersection.

I understood the risk I was taking and I accept the consequences of my actions. I believe my behavior was justified due to the circumstances. The law is the law, but as in self defense there are exceptions. This is such a case.

This was not intended to be a cop-bashing thread by any means. I have high respect for police officers and do not hold any ill will toward those that act prudently, in any situation. The officer in question in this case was not interested in having a dialogue about the situation, only in berating me and trying to make me feel small.

I do regret not hesitating a moment longer during the initial encounter. If I had seen the uniform then I could have avoided this entire situation, and walked away with maybe a slap on the wrist. I do try to act like a professional, and yes, I did slip up. I am not offering any excuse for using excessive speed in the parking lot. I should have known better.

My error does not make my later actions inappropriate. As I stated I exited the parking lot and continued down the highway with the express intent of allowing the officer to flip on his lights or wig-wags. He didn't have them, instead choosing to use aggressive and intimidating driving to try and get me to stop. Couriers from my company have been robbed over the years. One was killed during the attempt. I'm not playing games out there, and I exercised as much caution as I thought appropriate for the situation.

CZ-75
July 22, 2003, 01:20 PM
I just love how the cops ASSuME that tires squealing around the corner mean that you're going too fast. My current car could easily exceed the speed limit on most residential/surface streets while cornering and not squeal the tires. A Ford Tempo rental car I once drove would squeal tires unless coming to a near stop and then turning. Bogus.

I also love how they ASSuME that being armed is a placebo for avoidance. A large (stolen) truck/SUV could easily disable a car and still be drivable and being stolen would mean the driver doesn't care about the paint job. Should you have to engage a perp, particularly in taxachewsh**s, you'd be under indictment and the DA would say you didn't do enough to avoid the situation.

Exit the vehicle posterior first, please.

I won't sit at a red light at night in a deserted area and often "run" them (after a complete stop) to avoid becoming a target. Probably safer to do at night since headlights warn of oncoming vehicles, which had there been any, would make the intersection no longer deserted. I'm armed, but also vulnerable sitting in a metal box w/ no immediate egress and less than full field of view. Guess that makes this a federal case and me a fugitive from justice. :rolleyes:

Richardson
July 22, 2003, 01:28 PM
I'm not a cop. I think most cops are good public servants. There are bad and foolish men among the police.

I have nothing but moderate criticism for all parties involved in this incident.

Devonai, were your tires squealing because of "driving a little too fast", or because they were bald? What would an onlooker think? If you're trying to be discreet and not draw attention to yourself (from anyone - police, muggers, etc.), drive more conscientiously.

Was the officer on duty? Was he working security for the theatre? Obviously he had a radio. I would like to know more.

On the other hand, why would an on-duty cop be driving a car without police plates, lights, or sirens? Or did he just choose to refrain from using the lights & sirens? I think he acted inappropriately in approaching the Devonai's vehicle without identifying himself (at least with lights), as well as in tailing him through several traffic violations, without stopping Devonai. This sounds like a cop looking for a confrontation, trying to goad someone into making mistakes or commit violations. This is just wrong.

Devonai, you didn't need to run the red lights. Unless it is a particularly high crime area or he was driving in a way that endangered you, it was wrong to run the red lights. You may have felt like this could be a threat, but you were armed and in your car, and he stayed behind you.

I wouldn't be surprised if this officer has a history of goading people. He got pretty pissed off at getting caught tailing the courier, especially for someone who chose not to arrest the courier while going through red lights!!! His tongue lashing was totally unprofessional, but well deserved by Devonai.

Richardson

CZ-75
July 22, 2003, 01:31 PM
Devonai,

Get a traffic lawyer and argue, based on what has happened to other couriers, that you had a legitimate fear. Note the unmarked personal vehicle and the fact the officer didn't engage you in the parking lot over your alleged "infraction," but chose to tail you in an intimidating manner w/o IDing himself at any time. The officer should get a reprimand, not you. JBT mindset is evident that he just didn't come over and cite you first thing, but instead chose to tail and intimidate. Did HE have a reason not to engage you? Seems he was the one who was too nervous to handle things properly. Your fear was reasonable given the lack of ID and questionable vehicle.

Oh, and buy better tires. Anything that squeals so easily is likely not much good. Nothing more important to traction, handling and braking than tires. Tirerack.com is a good place to shop and NTB is a good place to get them mounted

brownie0486
July 22, 2003, 01:32 PM
Intune :

No thugs with bats and chains came to Devonai's window. If they had, of course a reasonable person could make a case for extricating themselves in any way possible. The statement stands.

Devonai :


I don't see the self defense theory here. He had not threatened you overtly and the mere presence behind you does not justify a self defense scenario [ I'm assuming by self defense you mean escaping in this instance ]. You had not been threatened merely by his presence.

Prudence in your profession is certainly admirable, and that you recognized the vehicle, noted it's posture toward you, and reacted by driving away from the potential threat.

I didn't see the use of the excessive and intimidating driving on his part in the original posting. Was he merely following you [no overt threat to react to ] or did he attempt to pull you over or block your movement in some way [ which of course then would be reasonable to assume you were under some form of attack ].

I've done some courier work over the years. You have to stay on your toes and be observant, which I think you were according to the posts. If he was being aggressive in following, then your actions were warranted in slowing and proceding through the intersections, but I didn't see the aggressive posture posted initially. You stated you were on the highway and waiting for blue lights/wigwags.

That initially would lead one to believe he was just tailing and not acting erratically [ which was not posted ]. I know your intentions were not to bash cops, but a few known cop bashers kicked right in with their standard bad cop routine right off the bat in replies and were not being objective in their assessment of the scenario.

Brownie

TallPine
July 22, 2003, 01:35 PM
Just wonder what folks would be saying if Devonai had gotten beaten and robbed by the guy in the SUV, supposing that he had NOT been a cop ???

"Bad tactics ... not enough situational awareness ... should not have let yourself get trapped ... should have run the red light ...." :what:

More likely, this thread or any other would not have happened, Devonai just wouldn't be posting here anymore and no one would know why.

brownie0486
July 22, 2003, 01:37 PM
CZ-75:

Devonai drove off before the officer could ID himself or get close enough to be identified.

He can't really use your suggestion about the cop not IDing himself when Devonai drove off before he could now right?

How do you tail in an intimidating manner? From the post, Devonai FELT threatened, but nowhere in the psot does he state an action by the officer that was threatening.

JBT indeed, reread the post before you post that crap with no basis for the comments.

Brownie

CZ-75
July 22, 2003, 01:38 PM
Better to be killed than run a red light on deserted streets? Maybe they'll give you a safe driver medal, posthumously of course. :rolleyes:

brownie0486
July 22, 2003, 01:43 PM
TallPine:

Seems from the post he has/had situational awareness. How does one get beaten and robbed by the single act of being tailed with no other intervention mentioned on the tailers part anyway?

Seems other actions would have had to occur before anyone got close enough to beat or rob him. He doesn't say the cop was trying to pull him over [ may be taken as an act of aggression ], only tailing him.

He is in a vehicle that gives quite a bit of safety inside as well as being able to observe the actions of others. Nothing has been stated about the cop being aggressive.

Course others here espousing their JBT mentality would consider it so much aggression [ being followed ] they would be in fear for their lives.

Brownie

CZ-75
July 22, 2003, 01:44 PM
Before I could start to fill out my form, the SUV began to cross the parking lot and came right up to my vehicle. It was poining straight at my driver's side, and behind the lights I could make out neither the driver nor the plates. I suspected that this may be the local police officer hired to do the standard security detail at the theatre, but being unable to identify any markings, plates, or details about the driver I decided to pull away.


Brownie,

I guess your reading comprehension is as good as your spelling and common sense. Pretty obvious that there was enough time for the cop to exit the vehicle and ID. When you were a JBT, it's hard to lose the mindset, I guess. :rolleyes:


Oh, and these actions could be construed as "aggressive."

Cosmoline
July 22, 2003, 01:51 PM
I don't know enough about the specifics to comment on this situation, but my biggest pet peeve with LEO's is their stubborn refusal to use both lights and the siren. Just the other day I nearly got nailed by one running a red light with ONLY LIGHT, no siren. Since my line of sight was blocked by two large trucks, I had no idea he was there till the last second, when he decided he should turn on his siren. Then he promptly turned it back off and kept on running reds! Is this some idiotic department policy or something! If you want somebody to pull over or get out of the way, turn on siren and lights. Otherwise you have nothing to complain about.

When I was younger, I also had a bad experience with an unmarked car using no visible flashing light and no siren. The cop claimed he had been trying to pull me over for miles, but since he didn't even issue a ticket I suspect he knew he was wrong.

brownie0486
July 22, 2003, 01:52 PM
CZ-75

"but being unable to identify any markings, plates, or details about the driver I decided to pull away."

As he pulled away, you see anything where he states the cop had a chance to get out of the car before he pulled away? I don't. And neither do you. And of course later he states

"I do regret not hesitating a moment longer during the initial encounter. If I had seen the uniform then I could have avoided this entire situation,"

Guess by his own admission he [ Devonai ] didn't hang around long enough for the cop to ID himself did he now?

When you are a woeisme, it's hard to lose the mindset, I guess.

As to the spelling, it's a big deal here on a forum? I didn't know I was in a spelling bee here.

Brownie

Gmac
July 22, 2003, 01:57 PM
I think Tallpine nailed it.

Duncan Idaho
July 22, 2003, 02:08 PM
MA is a police state. Has been since before I left it a decade ago. What happened to you doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

A police officer that does nothing to identify himself, but does go to the trouble of pulling up perpendicularly to another person's vehicle in a parking lot at night, is nothing more than any other thug intimidating people in his big bad car/S.U.V. The badge that he hides in his pocket doesn't justify that behavior. If a cop isn't willing to identify him/herself (with the extraordinary exception of undercover work - which this wasn't, or he wouldn't have broken cover), then they aren't worthy of the badge that they carry.

The little tirade/ticket that you were treated to, is the thug's way of saying that you are at his mercy should he decide to make it his business to stalk you in his S.U.V. next time around.

If you are extraordinarily lucky, a judge will throw this out. Good luck.


Oh, and BTW, thank you for reminder # 1,010,445 of why I left the police state of the People's Demoratik Kommunewealth of Massachews***s.

I'm very grateful that the cops that I know here in WA state have the guts to at least identify themselves like honorable men and women. They don't hide in unmarked personal vehicles and stalk people like twisted little control freaks. It is very refreshing.

brownie0486
July 22, 2003, 02:13 PM
Duncan,

By Devonai's own admission, the cop didn't have time to ID himself before he pulled away.

Could not agree with you more on Mass. though.

Brownie

CZ-75
July 22, 2003, 02:13 PM
As to the spelling, it's a big deal here on a forum? I didn't know I was in a spelling bee here.

The common sense part is far more worrisome. Easier to sub rules and regulations for logic, I guess.


Oh, and I thought you loved MA, with its high incomes (to pay high taxes) and great healthcare and eductional institutions, never mind that the LEOs get cool SMGs to enforce their will. :rolleyes:

Graystar
July 22, 2003, 02:16 PM
If the courier had not run the red lights [ endangerment to the public ], he may have escaped with no ticket at all.

The courier could have stopped at the red lights and waited like normal, watching the driver of the following car for signs of egress at the light before fracturing the mv laws was necessary. You are not appreciating the gravity of the situation. Put yourself in his place. You drive to a business to pick up lots of money (something you do on a regular basis) and some car starts following you from the parking lot. There was no reason at all to assume that it was a cop. I think it would be insane to let that car get so close that they would be able to shoot you through your window. I would have done the same exact thing. My life is worth too much to me to take gambles like that.

brownie0486
July 22, 2003, 02:16 PM
And what logic would that be?

Would that be because he was found to be a JBT in your mind and he is automatically in the wrong here?

Right, theres some logic to that I suppose somewhere.

Don't care to expound on your assumptions about not producing ID after the last post? Just fluff that over and ignore it after being made aware of the posters own comments which went against one of your contentions as to why he was a JBT. Can't come up with something that makes sense so ignore the facts and continue to play word games.

Ya, thats the way to keep the JBT theory alive and well without addressing the real issues hey?

Brownie

Intune
July 22, 2003, 02:20 PM
"He didn't have them, instead choosing to use aggressive and intimidating driving to try and get me to stop."

That's enough for me to do exactly what you did. In fact, I have.

On or about Easter Sunday, 1994 my wife and our two children were coming home from church on Briley pkwy. We are in the rt lane and traffic is heavy. The car in front of me is going less than the 55 posted speed limit & I see a break in the left lane traffic so I signal & change lanes. HOOOONNNKKK!!! Oops, I have just cut a car off. I pull back into the rt lane and do one of those "oops, I'm sorry" waves and mouth "sorry" to the young man & woman in the car. He suddenly swoops right in front of me and then SLAMS on his brakes!!! Now a Park Ave is not exactly a small car but the only way I avoided ramming him in the rear was to go in the emergency lane to the right. Now he is right on my tail and flashing his lights. At times I can't even see his lights because he is right on my bumper. I slow to 30 mph in hopes that this guy will go around me. Nope, on my bumper. I speed up to 55 & he's still on my tail but now he's holding up some kind of badge to his windshield & motioning me to pull over. Yeah, right. We have no cell phone & are about .5 mile from house. I can either go to a shopping center parking lot with a lot of witnesses & hope that this guy is really a cop or go to my house and pull into the garage & close it before he can come in. The latter is what I do. My wife gets on phone to 911 and I have the Mossberg 500 when the doorbell rings. "Open the door, Metro Police!" he says. "Not a chance after your actions." I reply. "You're only gonna make it worse on yourself if you don't open the door. I just want to talk to you." He yells. I said, "We're talking right now so say what you need to say. My wife is on the phone with 911 and the police are on their way. If you're a real cop then we'll find out when uniformed officers arrive in marked cars. I am NOT opening this door to you after endangering my family like you did. "YOU CUT ME OFF!" He yells, "you're in BIG trouble" and goes back to his car.

A few minutes later there is a knock on the door and I look out to see two uniformed officers and four marked cars in our cul-de-sac. I put the gun away, open the door & go outside. He is a real cop, I apologize, he says "too late," the other ones talk to him a long time but he comes over & gives me a ticket for reckless driving & a couple of other violations that I can't recall. I asked one of the uniforms if I could press my own charges against the officer. He took me to the side & said "sure" but then explained what he would do in that situation. I need to look at the ticket to see all the violations he listed, you see, I still have the ticket because I never went to court. I know a Major in the Metro police who handled security for us when I was with MCA Records. One phone call. The next day I received a call from the young officer apologizing and telling me that there was no need to go to court & that he would handle it. I apologized to him also and said that I would be more careful. He then thanked me for asking Maj. ***** NOT to enter this incident in his personal jacket. No prob. If I had gone to court it would have gotten real ugly. Never hurts to have friends in high places.


:eek:

CZ-75
July 22, 2003, 02:22 PM
And what logic would that be?

The kind that prevents you from thinking that shining your brights, not exiting the vehicle to ID yourself, then tailing someone for several miles is aggressive behavior designed to assuage the officer's inadequacy over his small "gun," as issued by mother nature. ;) I'll bet he'd stop if only the dept. issued him an SMG.

brownie0486
July 22, 2003, 02:24 PM
Intune,

That quote is an assumption on his part. Perception does not necessarily become the reality based in facts. He never stated anything other than the car followed him, and thats not aggressiveness, but could certainly be intimidating.

So the quote does not become enough for his actions as stated.

Brownie

CZ-75
July 22, 2003, 02:27 PM
Don't care to expound on your assumptions about not producing ID after the last post? Just fluff that over and ignore it after being made aware of the posters own comments which went against one of your contentions as to why he was a JBT. Can't come up with something that makes sense so ignore the facts and continue to play word games.

So, how long does it take an officer to exit his vehicle and ID himself? Seems this takes less time than looking for plates, driver description, and dept. markings. Seems like I'm not the one playing games and making assumptions - unless the officer couldn't find the door handle or was finishing his doughnut first.

keithernTN
July 22, 2003, 02:33 PM
Why didn't the police officer make Devonai pull over when he ran the red lights? This makes no sense. I don't know what this cop was doing but it wasn't his job.

KMKeller
July 22, 2003, 02:39 PM
Devonai - In the initial interaction, how close did the officer get to your vehicle before he came to a stop? Was he close enough that you couldn't get your door open if you needed to?

brownie0486
July 22, 2003, 02:43 PM
How about he was on the radio with dispatch running the plate? Oh, thats right, you wouldn't think of that would you? Instead you gotta make the doughnut jokes. More nonsense from a JBT hater.

How long does it take you to look at a vehicle and see it has no markings? What a second, if that? Again, you WANT the cop to have done something wrong so he has in your mind, which of course isn't very objective is it?

But by Devonai's own admission, he didn't hang around long enough, you keep ignoring that to suit your needs here which again goes toward the JBT attitude you carry toward LE in general.


keithernTN : you shoudl read the thread, then it would mke sense why no lights and siren. Hint--he was in a privately owned vehicle. Does your personal vehicle have these things? I know muine doesn't.

Brownie

bogie
July 22, 2003, 02:53 PM
Brownie, just one question...

When was the last time you were in your POV, wearing civies, and pulled someone over to give them a ticket?

bogie
July 22, 2003, 02:55 PM
Oh yeah - and were you moonlighting at the time?

keithernTN
July 22, 2003, 02:58 PM
brownie0486

Yep read the thread, I saw he had no lights or siren.

The officer should have pulled alongside with interior light on revealing his uniform, Devonai was only going 30 mph and slowed to 25 mph at the intersections he ran. If the officer had no means of making him pull over he should have called for backup they always do that anyway in my town. The whole reason for the incident was the officers failure to identify himself.

brownie0486
July 22, 2003, 02:59 PM
bogie:

I wasn't aware the thread mentioned anything about the guy following him to give him a ticket on the road. He got the ticket back at the lot. Now that you mention it, I don't know why he had a ticket book with him unless he writes tickets as a course of his duties at the mall.

But to answer your question: I didn't carry a ticket book in my POV.

I have however pulled over a few drunks before they killed someone in my POV and had them wait for a uniformed officer to arrive after taking the keys from the ignition. I always carried a com so would call it in.

Brownie

Intune
July 22, 2003, 03:03 PM
"That quote is an assumption on his part. Perception does not necessarily become the reality based in facts. He never stated anything other than the car followed him, and thats not aggressiveness, but could certainly be intimidating.

So the quote does not become enough for his actions as stated.

Brownie"



Sure it does. It was HIS reality at the time. Especially after he broke the law running red lights and this mysterious person is still on his butt? The fact that red & blues DIDN'T come on after these actions would indicate a BAD GUY on one's tail! Eh?

4v50 Gary
July 22, 2003, 03:06 PM
Was told by our instructor (a CHP) in our traffic block you either:

(a) Chew the guy out and let it go;
(b) Be professional and issue a citation;

Never were we to do both during the same vehicle stop. In the first situation, the guy may be pissed, but he figures he didn't get a cite. In the second, he gets a cite and if he complains, you were professional and within the course and scope of your duties.

Now, this guy did both and it sounds like an IA beef to me on the basis of unprofessional conduct.

brownie0486
July 22, 2003, 03:13 PM
I can agree with that.

But running the red light was due to being tailed. The running of the light was brought about by being followed, not aggressively attempting to pull him over.

As stated earlier, if the cops car had been aggressively attempting a stop or block then the action would be justified. Otherwise an overreaction until something can be articulated by him about actions and not some perception on his part about what might be happening.

You base your prudent decisions on observed/known facts not hypotheticals or worst case scenarios which play in your head.

Brownie

brownie0486
July 22, 2003, 03:14 PM
4v50 Gary :

Agreed and stated as much earlier. The cop pulled a bonehead by the A$$ chewing and ticket.

Good advice by the CHP and one I followed regularly while on the roads.

Brownie

TheeBadOne
July 22, 2003, 03:20 PM
The officer should have pulled alongside with interior light on revealing his uniform,
...and then perhaps he should have painted a bullseye on his chest too as all that would make him a perfect target if the unknown occupant of the suspecious vehicle he was following was armed (he was) and was a bad guy determined to hurt him (he wasn't). The "what if's" go both ways, never forget that. >>just a point I wanted to interject<<

I think this thread has run its course. There has been some good information and questions posted. All points of argument have been reached and are now being rehashed. Those who won't take the answer won't take it in 5 more pages. We each have our own experiences and beliefs. Some people are open minded, some less so. (agree with gary on a & b)

All the best

Devonai
July 22, 2003, 03:24 PM
The officer pulled his SUV to within three feet of my driver's door. Like I said, he was facing me perpendicularly with the lights directly in my face. I could not see the plates at all. That's why I started moving to a better lit part of the lot. It was then that I was able to confirm that it had civilian plates.

I give myself a B- for this incident. I know I could have performed better. My regional manager gave me an F. I'm suspended without pay until the results of the court hearing, i.e. in 6-8 months.

My supervisor is 100% on my side on this one, but he's not the final say, the regional manager is. Guess which one actually does courier work? The manager's biggest beef is that I didn't immediately proceed to the local police department. My assertion that calling my dispatcher and having her call the local PD for me was at least as good of an idea. In reality I didn't know where the PD was located (this town is 40 miles from Beverly). No excuse? Maybe. I did the best I could at the time, trying to juggle a standard transmission, a cell phone, and a healthy dose of adrenaline. The fact of the matter is that the dispatcher is in a much better place to explain the situation to the police over the phone.


Here's another aspect to the situation. My regional manager was furious that I did not inform the officer that I was armed. I was adhering to my standard personal policy of never revealing that I'm armed unless an officer asks, or I believe I'm about to be frisked/arrested (which thankfully has never happened). If the officer had let me explain the nature of my work, it would have become obvious. But like I said, he was only interested in chewing me out and not in anything I had to say. It didn't seem like such a good idea to say to a cop, who is an inch away from my face an yelling at me, "oh, by the way, I have an LTC and I'm armed."

Massachusetts has no requirement to inform an officer that you're armed. Good, bad, or idiotic I was within my rights.

KMKeller
July 22, 2003, 03:40 PM
Within 3 feet? Frankly boys, I don't give a rat's behind who is in the car, if someone pulls up bumper to my door and headlights on, the red flags are popping up all over the place. What was Devonai supposed to do? Wait until the perp got out of the car and shot him? The time it would take for the officer to identify himself is pretty much the same amount of time it would take for a perp to shoot Devonai. If the cop wanted to speak to him, he should've pulled around behind so Devonai could see him get out of the car and see the uniform, badge, whatever.

Theebadone - ...and then perhaps he should have painted a bullseye on his chest too as all that would make him a perfect target if the unknown occupant of the suspecious vehicle he was following was armed (he was) and was a bad guy determined to hurt him

That was EXACTLY the predicament the officer put Devonai in from the beginning. Truck to the door, headlights on, bullseye in the making.

Sounds to me like the officer intended to intimidate Devonai and then got ticked off when he did. The officer initiated the incident from the word go.

brownie0486
July 22, 2003, 03:49 PM
Most officers initiate an action based on some form of abnormal behaviour. His was the screatching of tires.

It's the nature of the job don't you know?

Actually, if it were me I would have stood the ground in lieu of getting into a vehicle where I was more vulnerable while entering. That could have been the time he BG made a move [ if it was a BG ].

On another note, Devonai : I am sorry to hear you have been suspended and do not agree with the suspension by your regional manager. The actions do not really fit a suspension in my view based on this one incident.

I'd connect with an atty about the job situation first before I got one involved in the court action.

Though it may have appeared I was on your "case", I wasn't sir. I call em the way I see em, as stated both of you made mistakes. As an aside, I would question the officers leaving the private property if he was on detail there. Hint--in Ma. it is a no no to leave your post. Look into it, you may be pleasantly surprised that all charges are dropped if he bugged out against policy. They may call it a wash, you get your job back [ it's then been settled ] and you have learned a lesson the hard way which will make the next time easier to discern relative your actions or reactions to outside stimuli.

Brownie

Devonai
July 22, 2003, 03:56 PM
I just spoke with a lawyer, who was nice enough to give me ten minutes of his time over the phone.

He does believe that I have a case, and that if I play my cards right I can get the violations thrown out. He emphatically recommended against filing a complaint against the officer until the results of the magistrate hearing.

If the magistrate hearing rules against me, I can request a bench trial. This is where I can really get into the guts of this case, and take my time explaining my motivations and mindset during the incident.

If it comes down to the bench trial, I will try like hell to come up with the money to put the lawyer on retainer. Let's just say it's about as much as a new Bushmaster XM-15.

Now I just have to photocopy the ticket, mail it in, and go down to the unemployment office. :( :( :(

Brownie: Thank you for your sentiments and feedback. I hold no one at fault for being hard on me. How am I supposed to learn anything otherwise?

Intune
July 22, 2003, 04:09 PM
Dev, what WAS this genius doing in the parking lot? Rent-a-cop? I have a hard time believing that he was there in an official capacity in a POV. You got suspended over this? I would be soooo po'd.

:fire:

dustind
July 22, 2003, 04:21 PM
I only read a third of the thread, I do not know if someone covered this, but if running red lights was dangerous why did the cop do it?

On most roads you can see far enough at thirty miles an hour to make sure its clear, I do not think anyone was endangered.

brownie0486
July 22, 2003, 04:26 PM
Here in Ma. they can and do perform details in their POV on private property.

Not always, but often enough it is an accepted practice in some locales.

I'd spent the money to have an atty ask for the dept's policy [ through FOIA ] on leaving a paid detail. If they have a policy at all, it probably would work in your favor. You may find you don't need to go to court at all if he broke a written policy.

If it were me, I'd use that angle to nip this in the bud before any court action, and be on my way back to work sooner rather than later.

If it goes to court, make sure you have the atty ask the dept for their policies and procedures on details.

Brownie

KMKeller
July 22, 2003, 04:28 PM
Brownie - good call on determining what the department's policy is. That is without a doubt the best first step you can take Devonai.

Intune
July 22, 2003, 04:52 PM
Brownie is giving some good advice. See if you can nip this thing now that all parties have calmed down. About the lost wages... :( I would seek employment from your co's main competitor. They may support their employees a bit better.

cordex
July 22, 2003, 05:08 PM
My view is that if the officer's personal vehicle is not equipped with lights, sirens or markings that identify it as a police vehicle, it should not be used as if it did. Officer instigated a situation that he was not equipped to enter into. Should have immediately called on-duty backup in marked cars and had Devonai pulled over by someone capable of doing so safely. His not doing so escalated the situation.

Dustin, I had the same thought.
Some general questions:
Are off-duty officers moonlighting as security allowed to break traffic laws in their private vehicles?
Are officers in marked cruisers endangering public safety if they blow a red without using their lights and sirens? I remember being pulled over late one night by an officer who ran a red light while following me without using lights or sirens (I went through just as it turned yellow) and pulled me over a mile or two later. I hadn't done anything wrong and didn't get in any trouble.

Devonai probably shouldn't have run the lights unless the other vehicle attempted to whip around him.

CZ-75
July 22, 2003, 05:25 PM
Yep, some of us are just 'biased" against LEOs. After all, what other job can you behave like an ??? in and still get away with it (other than gunstore owner/clerk) - while some poor schmuck has to live with the fallout b/c the law assumes that you are honest, upstanding and the like? :barf:

TheeBadOne
July 22, 2003, 05:56 PM
After all, what other job can you behave like an ??? in and still get away with it (
CZ-75 why don't you tell us what you do for work? :confused:

Norm357
July 22, 2003, 05:57 PM
OK I stayed out of this till I could show this thread to my wife who is a police officer. She has a couple of questions.

1. Can a police officer in your jurisdiction make a traffic stop in his POV?

2. Are there police style lights on his POV? Is this legal?

3. and finally, why the heck did you not ask to speak to a supervisor immeaditly?(sp)


Norm

deanf
July 22, 2003, 06:05 PM
Was told by our instructor (a CHP) in our traffic block you either:

(a) Chew the guy out and let it go;
(b) Be professional and issue a citation;

Never were we to do both during the same vehicle stop. In the first situation, the guy may be pissed, but he figures he didn't get a cite. In the second, he gets a cite and if he complains, you were professional and within the course and scope of your duties.

In other words, it's ok to be rude and unprofessional as long as you don't make official record of it, that way there's no way you can really get in trouble for your conduct. Cute.

Reminds me of a local small PD I used to work for. This little city's curfew ordinance got overturned by the courts. That didn't stop the Chief, though. Officers were instructed to enforce the curfew, just not write any tickets for it. That way anyone who was contacted did not have a venue to challenge the officer's actions in enforcing the curfew. By enforcing, I mean: contacting kids who were out late, field interrogating them, recording the FI on little cards, calling parents, and transporting home. Just no cite.

EJ
July 22, 2003, 06:05 PM
4v50 Gary
(a) Chew the guy out and let it go;

or

(b) Be professional and issue a citation;

exactly--

I was hoping to see this--

alan
July 22, 2003, 06:07 PM
Devonai:

There are some people who are accountants, but shouldn't be. Ditto for doctors, lawyers, engineers and truck drivers. This dictum most certainly applies, with equal, if not greater force, to police.

cordex
July 22, 2003, 06:08 PM
Thankfully, cops 'round here seem to be able to be polite and professional whether they issue a citation or not.

4v50 Gary
July 22, 2003, 06:11 PM
deanf: chewing the guy out doesn't mean calling him names, behaving rudely or what-not. It's a dressing down. Now, you knew someone from the CHP would want us to be rude, didn't you?

deanf
July 22, 2003, 06:19 PM
4v50 please note this relevant portion of your post:

(a) Chew the guy out and let it go;
(b) Be professional and issue a citation;

Never were we to do both during the same vehicle stop.

It's that last sentence. "Never were we to do both . . ." if a and b are your only choices, and you choose a, then logic dictates that a chewing out must be unprofessioinal, since "never were we to do both . . ." excludes professional conduct if you choose a.

I'm not saying this is the way you or even most officers conduct themselves, just pointing out a little contradiction.

A related question: why would you choose just a chewing out over writing a cite?

HBK
July 22, 2003, 06:36 PM
Devonai: Sorry to hear of your misfortune, hope everything works out for you.

12-34hom
July 22, 2003, 06:39 PM
Brownie, Game - set - match....;)

12-34hom.

4v50 Gary
July 22, 2003, 06:41 PM
deanf: sometimes you don't mind giving a person a break. We all need it at times. When I use to do to vehicle stops, it finally boiled down to how the person was. If they cooperated and cleared warrants/registration, I'd usually let them go with a warning. If the driver was a jerk, cite came to mind.

Reminds me of one time of pulling over an Afro-American male. He was the model "driver" when it came to cooperation but his girlfriend was all mouth. Almost cited him because of her but decided not to. When I told him that I wasn't going to cite him, citing how he had cleared wants/warrants/registration & had cooperated 100%, I also added that I almost did because of her nagging. He turned around & told her to "shut up next time." It was worth not issuing the citation. :D

Mind you, every agency is different and some agencies want strict enforcement while others are more lax. Also depends on the assignment an officer/deputy gets (traffic enforcement).

CZ-75
July 22, 2003, 06:46 PM
CZ-75 why don't you tell us what you do for work?


Hint: If I had an Arabic name and did what I do, I'd be under FBI surveillance. I may be soon anyway, as I'm going to need them to approve a security clearance for me.

You can rest assured, however, that I don't get to go around throwing my weight around with members of the general population and don't get a badge and gun to boost my ego.

brownie0486
July 22, 2003, 06:47 PM
You still have older cops on the forces out there who cuttheir teeth on the following:

Catch a kid doing something stupid, chew him a new one and send him on his way. Particularly remember some of the older guys who remembered when a bar fight was broken up by cops wailing the p**s out of them with the sticks, calling an ambulance and seeign the guy there the next weekend like nothing happened.

With the liability issues of non-feasance, mal-feasance in this PC world, they can no longer make those decisions as in the old days. They would lose their jobs today if they did, be sued by everyone who had a gripe and end up even more apathetic toward to job than they are now.

I'd rather getmy butt kicked than have a criminal record forever over a barfight myself. But hey, society wants everyone treated equal so everyone goes downtown now whether they deserve to or not. LE have to abide these rules or lose their job now. Any wonder why they do what they do and the public bitches?

Technically no POV would be used for stops. Usually they have wigs and blues in the grille if they are doing this often enough withtheir POV's. Which supervisor should he have taked to immediately? PD shift commander or his supervisor?

It's not okay to be rude. But rude is in the eyes of the beholder. Rude ws the word used by one defendant [ female ] who thought because I handed her the ticket and would not answer her questions that I was being so. In actually, I was not allowed to offer an opinion or give answers to questions other than to inform them they had been cited and why, that they had the right to appeal it within a certain timeframe and that the information on the back of the ticket was self explanatory.

Anything else and it could be used by a defendants atty later on in a hearing before the magistrate. So, being rude is relative and subjective at best.

Where else can you work where others will try to kill you or injure you for doing your job? There are pluses and minuses to every employment opportunity. Does anyone think that cops may just be human and are having a bad day as well? I know co-workers from several professions in the past who were rude and got away with it. The point?

Brownie

CZ-75
July 22, 2003, 06:54 PM
Where else can you work where others will try to kill you or injure you for doing your job?

7-11? ;)

Bouncer, bank teller, repo man and many others come to mind.

Does anyone think that cops may just be human and are having a bad day as well?

Then they should choose not to enforce minor violations, etc. when in such mood and confine themselves to actual crimes like theft, property damage, rape, murder and assault rather than intimidate violators and other citizens.

brownie0486
July 22, 2003, 06:55 PM
No, instead you get bosses that do the very same thing in almost all professions.

Guns and badges make ego boosters? Not to all of us. And therein lies the problem, you paint all cops with the same brush, and that shows your bias toward them in general instead of on a case by case basis.

Hope you don't get that clearance of yours, you may get an ego boost and become just like others you paint so easily. Hell, a security clearance? Isn't that a potential ego booster? Better watch out, you may become something you dislike in doing your job. Wonder if people will paint you the same way in their minds as well? How would you ever cope?

Brownie

CZ-75
July 22, 2003, 06:57 PM
I kinda hope I don't get the security clearance b/c that means I have to do more work for the same pay. :neener:

spacemanspiff
July 22, 2003, 07:00 PM
stupid question time...... what does screeching tires have to do with attracting attention of a LEO? car pulls into a parking lot, parks, but screeched the tires making the turn. whats the big deal?

good luck finding new employment, and fighting this stupid ticket.

compared to the majority of posters, i've had extremely good encounters with LEO. i've been given four warnings, two for fail to stops, one for headlight that needed replacing, and one for speeding. i've had three minor tickets, and one major ticket. in all those encounters the officers have been nothing but professional.

Orthonym
July 22, 2003, 07:23 PM
Sounds to me that MA needs a law like the one we had in GA. I believe it said that one was NEVER required to stop for an unmarked police car, even if it had lights and siren going. As to squealing tires, my (nearly new) tires will do that on some of the cheap parking-lot surfaces around here, even at walking speed.

Why didn't the fellow just yell something like "I'm a policeman!"?

Edward429451
July 22, 2003, 08:52 PM
Dang, you all been busy on this thread today.

Its still Us vs Them. Shame.

Biggest problem I got with threads of this nature is the same problem the cops have with me. Attitude. They say;

"We're not allowed to"

"Creative writing"

"Its the law"

Totally dodging any responsibility or individuality of thinking. Dangerous.

I really liked this one;

"They're not taking the answer"

Total superiority stance as if its a given.

Theres where my objectivity went to Brownie. Wiped out by the typical LEO attitude. You guys for the most part don't even try to see the citizens side of things and be reasonable, and yet, we're supposed to bow down to you guys orders and respect you on top of that!

I bet all you so called good guy cops on this board, pro RKBA and all that jazz, will jump right into the fray and start collecting weapons when the statement is made "Its the Law", wont you? You'll just say, 'Its the law' and shoot us down like dogs.




























Get Bent.:neener: :D :D

TheeBadOne
July 22, 2003, 09:00 PM
You guys for the most part don't even try to see the citizens side of things and be reasonable
Gee, there's that broad paintbrush again, doing exactly what you accuse LEO's of doing. :rolleyes:

Edward429451
July 22, 2003, 09:02 PM
So if I stop painting with a broad brush, you'll stop holding yourself to be superior to the citizenry?:D

Intune
July 22, 2003, 09:27 PM
Brownie said: "I'd spent the money to have an atty ask for the dept's policy [ through FOIA ] on leaving a paid detail. If they have a policy at all, it probably would work in your favor. You may find you don't need to go to court at all if he broke a written policy.

If it were me, I'd use that angle to nip this in the bud before any court action, and be on my way back to work sooner rather than later.

If it goes to court, make sure you have the atty ask the dept for their policies and procedures on details.

Brownie"

Thank you Brownie for seeing that this citizen has been wronged by this officer.

:cool:

TheeBadOne
July 22, 2003, 09:31 PM
So if I stop painting with a broad brush, you'll stop holding yourself to be superior to the citizenry?
Same paint, same JBT sterotyping...

Don Gwinn
July 22, 2003, 10:17 PM
Way more light than heat. This one will have to go to bed. Some of you will have PMs. Goodnight.

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