[bdg146]

A few months ago I bought my first handgun, a Ruger P90 (.45 caliber for those that aren't familiar). My primary reason for buying a handgun was to have something to carry while hunting/hiking, and also to get more familiar with handguns so that I can someday carry on a regular basis. Admittedly, I didn't inform myself as much as I probably should have, and went with a .45 basically because it was the biggest number there. So onto my question:

What semi-auto caliber do you think would be best for self-defense against animals, particularly black bears? I know that they tend to be more scared of you than you are of them, but I always worried about walking up on a mama bear while hiking, in which case there's a good chance she could become aggressive. After learning what I've learned since then, I'm kind of leaning towards a better penetrating caliber, such as .357sig or .40. Obviously .44 mag would be optimal, but I was looking for an semi-auto at the time.

Financially, I'm kind of stuck with the .45 at the moment. So another question I have is what ammo would you carry if you were me? I have some .45 JHP +P rounds, which would offer a higher velocity and therefore higher penetration. But then again, a standard-pressure FMJ round would probably penetrate better than any JHP, right?

I guess it's worth mentioning that I'm located in Pennsylvania, and most of the time I spend in the woods is in the South Central part of the state. Some bears get pretty big around there, but the typical adult black bear is probably somewhere in the 300-400 lb range, so nothing enormous.

Just looking for some opinions to better-educate myself on what I should load up with next time I take a trip out in the woods. Thanks!

[ReadyontheRight]

230 grain. They all fall to the hardball.

If you go for a new gun, 44 magnum, 45 Colt or .357 magnum.

[Javelin]

There are not too many pistols that will reliably drop an angry black bear. The big guns on the list are the 44mag, taurus 454, and the 460. You could possibly spend some big $$ and buy the S&W .500 which will fire the 454 and 460.

But if you were going to go thrifty and utilitarian, Taurus just released the .45 long colt pistol called "The Judge" for around $450. You can even fire .410 if you so choose (great snake medicine when hiking). The .45 LC is as small of a caliber I would even shoot at a Black Bear with.

[bdg146]

Taurus just released the .45 long colt pistol called "The Judge" for around $450. You can even fire .410 if you so choose (great snake medicine when hiking)

Hmmmm. I like it. Snakes are pretty abundant where our cabin is, that I could see that coming in handy. I'll keep that one in mind next time I can make a new purchase.

Regarding the .45 LC though... Hornady lists the muzzle velocity at only 725 fps. Isn't that a little slow for defense against bears? To be honest, I don't know much about the caliber, so just asking.

Oh, and I probably shouldn't have said .44 mag was "optimal". There's definitely bigger stuff out there, I guess what I meant was optimal common caliber... at least common to me.

[ashtxsniper]

For bear in a normal sized handgun I would have choose something in 10mm or 2nd choice would be the 357 Sig. I would prefer a larger handgun like the Desert Eagle in 44 mag.

[Javelin]

If you do go with a Taurus Judge I suggest you opt for the 6" barrel. I almost purchased the 3" barrel but when my dad got his with a 6" barrel the group is just tight enough with a .410 to reach out to 12 feet effectively for snakes. I dont know what the performance/accuracy would be with a tiny 3" barrel. . . might want to look into it.

He will have the first chamber to fire a .410 and follow up the other 3 with the .45 Long Colt. Its a pretty universal firearm and the price is excellent.

[shadowalker]

For animal defense you want maximum penetration so non expanding FMJ or hard cast bullets. 200+ grains at 1000+ fps minimum.

In Alaska most carried .44 Mag, 45 Win Mag (usually LAR Gr izzly Mag) or .357 magnum.

9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP do not make very good woods guns, but if you must carry 45 ACP take a look at DoubleTap's 230 grain or 200 grain hard cast or FMJ ammunition.

I would not use .357 sig, even the 147 grain bullet is too light and the .355 bullet is fairly small, of the common calibers I'd prefer non expanding 200 or 230 grain 45 ACP loads.

Where blacks are the biggest you are going to run into the semi-auto 10mm with 200 grain FMJ is very hard to beat, Glock offers 15+ rounds and the 10mm has been used to stop black bear with good results. I live in Idaho now and will probably replace the LAR Win Mag with a 10mm soon.

.357 magnum is a little under powered (generally too light of a bullet) for black bears but plenty of our friends used them to stop blacks, a couple had to shoot blacks that had joined them in their tree stands so it probably will work but wouldn't be my first choice.

In revolver .41 magnum is good, more effective than the .357 and less recoil than the .44.

[MFortie]

FWIW, the S&W .500 and the S&W .460 are two separate weapons. The .460 will also chamber 45 Colt and .454 Casull.

Regards,

Mark

[bdg146]

a couple had to shoot blacks that had joined them in their tree stands so it probably will work but wouldn't be my first choice

Funny you should say that. I had a couple cubs try to do the same thing on opening day of archery season this year. Two 80 lb cubs aren't the most threatening things in the world, but I was worried about mom showing up. Especially after clapping and waving and yelling didn't scare the two little ones away. Guess they were trying to figure out what the heck I was. Luckily the noise and movement made them get down off the tree I was in at least.

My next purchase is going to be a CCW, but after that maybe I'll save up, trade in the P90, and buy a good revolver in .357, .41 or .44 mag.

[campbell]

For a .45 ACP, this is as good as it's going to get, and should do fine on a black bear.

Bullet : 230gr. Full Metal Jacket - Flat Point

Ballistics : 1010fps - 521 ft./lbs. - 5" bbl.
Box of 50rds.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_34&products_id=156

Taurus just released the .45 long colt pistol called "The Judge" for around $450. You can even fire .410 if you so choose (great snake medicine when hiking). The .45 LC is as small of a caliber I would even shoot at a Black Bear with.

The Judge is a horrible choice for a woods gun. .410 out of a short barrel is useless, and the Judge won't take "Ruger only" .45 Colt. Pretty much all out of the box standard pressure .45 Colts are going to be inferior to the above Doubletap load, and you'll have only 5 shots.

[AZ Husker]

If you're out in the woods with anything less than a .44 Mag, you're bait. Unless of course you have a substantial rifle withing easy reach.

[memphislee]

i take my glock 20c (10mm) with two 15rd clips loaded with win 175 silvertip hp it seems to do the trick

[Art Eatman]

Develop proficiency such that you can make multiple hits and do it very quickly. Some people have difficulty with this sort of control with the heavier cartridges such as the .44 Mag.

Better to center-punch several rounds from a .45ACP or a .357 Mag than to have difficulty after just one shot from a .44 Mag.

Art

[Kingcreek]

I had a chance to shoot a "Judge" and I'll tell you, I wasn't impressed.
45colt and .410 shot and it doesn't do either one very well.
Your .45 acp is not a bad choice if loaded with hard cast or FMJ as said above. It is also going to be more comfortable to carry than some of the other choices mentioned.
I've spent some time in bear country (both flavors) and in snake country and I never really spent much time worrying about being on the defensive against the wildlife. Your chances of being victimized by a 2-legged creature are greater.

[308win]

Since you asked specifically about semi-auto, other than a 10mm you probably already have the best semi-auto caliber. If you reload you can load rounds that should be effective on black bear if you can make the right shot placement.

I am not familiar with PA laws but in Ohio except during the designated season for hunting deer with handguns, you can carry a handgun in the field only if you have a CCW permit; also, in Ohio the State manages the national forest land as well as state land and prohibits any form of recreational shooting except in designated areas. I would check the laws before carrying on public land.

A person possessing a valid Ohio issued Concealed
Carry license may carry their concealed weapon but it may not be used to shoot, shoot at, or kill any wild animal.

Public Hunting Lands
It is unlawful for any person to use a rifle, pistol, revolver, shotgun or other firearm at any time on any land or water area, controlled or administered
by the Division of Wildlife except while lawfully trapping, or hunting wild animals, or target practicing on a designated Division of Wildlife target range.

I don't know if PA is as restrictive as Ohio but I would research.

[MCgunner]

You have yourself a most excellent gun there that you should keep. However, while I've handloaded some +P .45, the .357 magnum is a superior outdoor caliber and revolvers, in general, are hands down better outdoor platforms. While my P90 is quite accurate, it is somewhat of an exception. Most good revolvers will beat up on most high dollar autochuckers in the accuracy department. You can load with .38 for small game in your .357, too. Revolvers are the ONLY way to go afield IMHO.

The only caliber in common normal sized autochuckers that qualifies for outdoor use is 10mm, basically similar to a hot .357 magnum out of a 6" gun. Unless you're talking desert eagle (might as well carry a carbine), 10 is it. Think .357 magnum, .41 magnum, .44 magnum, .45 colt for outdoor revolvers to carry while hiking. I normally carry a .357, though I do have a .45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk. The medium frame 4" .357 totes easy on the hip when weight counts, shoots VERY accurate, and has plenty of bite for black bear or what not. Autoloaders are for mall ninjas. Get a revolver and live happy and wise. :D Forget the judge, it's a gimmick. If you want a .45 Colt, there is but one affordable choice, Ruger Blackhawk. It can be loaded to exceed .44 magnum with very heavy bullets. Such loads are too much for ordinary N frames and such as the Judge. If you want an N frame, get a Smith and Wesson Mountain Gun in .44 magnum, not .45 Colt. Not a strong enough gun for the hot .45 stuff, but very powerful and a compact hiking companion in .44 mag. That's what the gun was designed for. The Blackhawk is your only choice in .45 Colt if you want those levels of power. Oh, you could get a Freedom Arms, but I suspect that's a little out of your budget. :D

BTW, what Art says is true. :D

My .45 ACP handload involves a cast SWC 200 grain at about 1100 fps, little over 500 ft lbs. It'd take a black bear at defensive ranges, I reckon, but I have more confidence in a 180 grain .357 magnum at 1401 fps or 158 SWC at around 1500, 6" barrel ballistics.

[bdg146]

So glad I asked this question. I'm learning a lot from reading all of this.

Getting off multiple shots is important, which is why, if I get a revolver, I'll probably stay away from a .44 magnum. My buddy has one, which I enjoyed shooting, and the recoil didn't bother me too much, but I can't imagine getting off a quick 2nd shot.

308win, I actually did check out the laws in PA. Semi-autos are illegal to hunt with, which I already knew. I wasn't too sure what the laws were about carrying while hunting though, since in public, you technically don't need a permit of any kind if you open carry. Game commission laws said carrying while hunting required a LTCF (license to carry a firearm). I guess game commission laws would outweigh state laws while I'm hunting, so I went and got my LTCF. Pretty much all of the time I spend hunting is on private land, but I'll definitely dive in further should I come across a situation where I'll be hunting on public land.

For now, I'll probably pick up some of that DoubleTap ammo recommended, and later on pick up a .357. I'd be intrigued by a .41, but they're not as common. I was looking at a Ruger GP100 w/a 4" barrel. Nice looking gun.

[MCgunner]

The GP100 is a fine revolver, excellent choice for outdoor use. The .41 is a way cool caliber that I want to add someday, but it pays to handload for the caliber. .357 and .44 are more common in factory ammo.

I wouldn't worry about follow up shots, place that one good shot. You can't miss fast enough. Spray and pray is not a good tactic. Heck, I carry a single action a lot out west. I can fire it fast enough and it's very accurate. The .45 Colt carries some energy, too, and I don't worry about a 300 grain bullet penetrating.

Thank God I don't have to put up with all those BS laws. In Texas, if you're "engaging in outdoor activities" or some wording like that, you can open carry no problem. Anyway, hunting or hiking, I don't worry about being armed. I do have a CCW permit. New Mexico is even better, an open carry state and a state I really love spending time in. :D I'd consider moving there, but their duck hunting sux. LOL!

[paintballdude902]

while hunting and hiking i carry the only handgun my dad would buy for me to use (im 17) which is a ruger single six in .22lr/magnum

i figure its not much but it could save my life and there was a situation that it possibly did save my life so far this season

[Constantine-p89]

Rock Island 45acp and Smith 686 357.

[bdg146]

I wouldn't worry about follow up shots, place that one good shot. You can't miss fast enough. Spray and pray is not a good tactic.

I didn't mean that pumping out 6 shots as fast as I can is a good idea, just that I don't want to depend on a single bullet, no matter what the size, to do the job. I've hunted bear, but never shot at one. The largest game I have taken is deer. I've seen what a whitetail can do even after that "one good shot", and I'd imagine a bear can do more. The only areas I would expect to have instant stopping power would be the head and the spine. Hitting those small areas on a moving target in a moment of "oh crap" isn't the easiest thing to do, which is why I think it's important to be able to get off a few well-aimed shots rather than one.

Of course, I've never had to defend myself against a bear. I certainly understand your opinion, and don't mean any offense by saying what I just said. Just going off of what I've seen in the woods and the way other animals react to a well-placed shot (meaning a heart/lung shot).

[Art Eatman]

MCgunner, it's not all that difficult to put six rounds of .357 into a six-inch circle at ten yards in around three seconds. Add maybe one second top draw and get the first shot off. (And add three or five seconds more if you're in Condition White.)

I've shot 12-round "El Presidente" runs in around eight seconds with a 1911, which is sorta medocre. With full-house ammo, six seconds isn't all that big a deal for a well-practiced shooter. Turn, draw, shoot two in each of three targets, reload, shoot two more in each target.

Lotsa dry-firing and two to four boxes of practice each week...

[moooose102]

i agree w/ 308 win, other that the 10 mm, you have the best autoloader round. personally, when i am in the woods, i carry (my 45 acp) both clips stacked alternatly with 230 g fmj's and 230g jhp's, the fmj's will definitly penetrate, and if you have to shoot into soft tissue (by choice or chance) the jhp's will open up pretty big. bigger hole means more blood loss. not exactly what you want, as the prefered method is drop em where it stands, but if it drops 2 feet away from you, well thats not so bad either! if i was charged by a bear, i would try for great first shot placement, then i would keep shooting until it dropped, or it killed me!

[Ken 45LC]

I agree that you already have one of the better choices in a semi cartridge.

I also agree with MCgunner in that the Ruger Blackhawk in 45 colt is an excellent choice for about anything you will run across in Pa. The Ruger also comes in two grip configurations, and my personal preference is for the Bisley grip. For me, this grip is much easier to handle full house loads that the Ruger can handle. One drawback is that you will probably have to get into reloading in order to get the most out of this cartridge.

You will also be able to use this type of handgun for whitetail hunting, as an added bonus.

I live 30 minutes from Altoona if you're interested in shooting one.

Ken

[jmr40]

Glock 20 in 10mm, loaded with 180 grn. Doubletap ammo. Sometimes a 4 inch Smith 629 .44 mag. depending on the situation.

[Deanimator]

On my recent deer hunt, in addition to my Savage .30-06, I carried a 6" S&W Model 29. Good for close range shots on deer, and the only two legged critter it won't stop wears a hockey mask and carries a machete...

[bdg146]

I live 30 minutes from Altoona if you're interested in shooting one.

I was living in State College up to a year ago... if I had posted then, I probably would've taken you up on the offer. I've moved a bit farther East now though. But thank you... very nice of you to offer.

[Debunk Brady]

In my opinion, a .45 is fine for black bear. You average black bear is not all that big. For a grizzly, kodiak, or polar bear, I wouldn't be confident with a surface to air missle, but for a black bear a .45 would be fine.

Shot placement is counts more than anything.

[wabbles]

Going back to the orginal statement that you were most likely to stay with your Ruger P90 (great gun by the way), here is my advise for what it is worth. I carry a .45 Glock when hiking. Feel free to alternate the rounds from FMJ to JHP. This will allow for defense against several types of predators. I have never had a feeding problem doing this. If you want to stick with one type of JHP round, Hornady XTPs are know to penetrate deeper than most. Also you might look into the Federal EFMJ rounds.

[30-06 lover]

I would suggest bear spary over your 45. http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0047644228701a&type=product&cmCat=Search_Results_NYR&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&QueryText=bear+spary&N=4887&Ntk=Products&Ntx=mode+matchall&Nty=1&Ntt=bear+spary&noImage=0

If I were to suggest a handgun to stop a Black Bear charge it would be 44 mag or 454 casull, but those are revolvers.

I can't think of any semi that would consistanly stop a black bear charge so I won't suggest one.

Your best bet at stopping a close range black bear attack with a gun is a 12 gauge IMO.

Quick story...My dad and cousin had a black bear problem one night and went after it in the morning. They spotted it about 100 yards from camp and my cousin gut shot it. Pissed the bear off something awful and charged them. Bear took several rounds before it fell about 25 yards in front of them, and still wasn't dead! They put a final round in it and it finally expired.
Point-They were shooting deer rifles which are way stronger than any pistol and a poor shot resulted in an attack, so remember that shooting a bear alone is not going to hurt it and make it run off, it may provoke a charge. If possible get a long gun and bear spary. Pistols are backups, not primarys. Just my opinion anyway.

[tblt]

Don't buy the judge.Most taurus guns are cheaply made I have a 38 model 85.Should have bought a S & W

[pernicus]

contrary to what some have said, Desert Eagle in 44 mag is an excellent gun for personal protection in the woods, the felt recoil from 240grain bullets is comparable to 165 grain in my .40 S&W sigsaur p239

the devastating stopping power of a 44 magnum combined with the very low recoil(compared to cartridge being fired) and relativly cheap ammunition(compared to 454/460/500/50AE) a blue'd eagle 44 mag is one of the best options

and in a good hip holster and a quality belt the weight really is not bad at all(5'10 210lbs) and i carry mine with me whenever i'm in the woods...and if i'm going through a pine thicket to where i'm hunting and jump a deer i can rain on his ass(the only one i've jumped and had a shot at i hit 3 times :what:)

[41 Mag]

While not ever have hunted bears in particular, and only hunted bear country once, I would definately give a nod to the recommended ammo.

I hunt in some very thick river bottoms here in Tx. Most of it is thick enough that long shots could very well be arms length in some cases, but 25 - 50 yds are the norm. We go in after feral hogs which can be just as bad or worse than a pissed off bear in the close cover. Some refer to them as East Texas Grizzlies. I have used most calibers from the .30 Carbine up to the 454 Casulle and have found that the heavy cast .357's, a quality 10mm cast or JHP, as recommended hard cast or quality well constructed 45 Auto, 41 mag and 44 mag will all stop one with good shot placement.

The thing I was told about the bears when I hunted Co. was that if you came across one that it may or may not realize your there. IF you startled it, it would probably just head the opposite direction. However if cornered or feeling cornered it could put up a bluff charge to check it's situation. Now this would be your decision as to wether or not the charge is going to stop. Having been charged in a similar fashion by several hogs in the 200 - 300 pound range I can honestly tell you it isn't time for weak knees or nerves. You are basically deciding right then and there to shoot or not to. In most cases with the hogs I shoot reguardless, as thats why we're there, but I am not going to get fined or otherwise for shooting the hogs.

One point to this is, we have found the hogs to be as tough or tougher than most other critters roaming around in the woods. Yes they can all be put down with a varied assortment of armory and projectiles, but pound for pound and such, the hogs are tough customers. Their hides are thick and the shoulder plates on some of the boars will actually stop penetration from even close up shots with high powered rifles, so they are some contention for handguns. In the close cover the shot must count or you have a similar situation of a pissed bear. While the hogs don't have claws to speak of they do have very sharp tusk, which they definately know how to use, and can rip an artery open in the blink of an eye. We have found that if a round will drop the hogs in most given situations with reliability, then it is generally good for most other work as well.

As to the autoloaders, I have taken several hogs using my IAI Javilina in 10mm. It's 7" barrel allows me to run the 180gr bullets out to over 1350fps and using the proper one, it reliably dropped the hogs on the spot. I do admit however that during the initial use of this pistol I made a couple of mistakes with the bullets used. Accuracy doesn't always mean reliability in killing. The most accurate bullets I have ever shot from this pistol were the Remington Golden Sabers. THey are not a hunting bullet by any stretch. They shoot one hole raqgged groups at 50yds through my pistol, but at less than 30', two of them within an inch of each other just below the ear, only extremly agitated a bruiser boar hog.

Bottom line is your pistol will work fine if your using the proper bullets for the job. Don't worry so much about the expansion, take penetration very seriously. The hard cast bullets with a round flat nose, or even a wadcutter design will move as much tissue or more due to the depth of penetration than most jacketed hollowpoints. They also have the best chance of getting to the boilerworks or possibly making a somewhat bad shot better due to the depth the might reach. Something like this Oregon Trail(tm) 225gr TCBB, if it will feed reliably, should work well. http://www.laser-cast.com/images/45.225.tcbb.452.gif I have used their 180gr RNFP in 40 cal to some extent and had good luck with them. If I were you I owuld look for the best combination of velocity and weight which in the 45ACP would be using something in the 200gr range. The 230's are good but in most cases you can run the 200's faster and depending on the bullet construction could in most cases get better penetration from the added velocity over the addd weight.

My mainstay is the 41 mag using the 200gr Rem. JHP bullet loaded to 1350fps. This load is very reliable on both deer and hogs out to 100yds and has accounted for plenty of up close and personal one shot stops. I also use the 240gr Rem. bullet loaded between 1200 and 1350fps as well and have complete confidence it it as well. In both of these I also shoot cast bullets as well. The 41 loads are primiarly in SWC design using velocities from 1100fps up through 1400 for the Oregon Trail bullets, and in the 44 I shoot the Oregon Trail 200gr RNFP to around 1350fps. These loads shoot just as well and work just as reliably as the JHP loads but I have a ton of the JHP on hand so I shoot them on a more regular basis. The biggest killer on the cast bullets is shipping cost.

If you handload or know someone who does this would be the best option as it would allow you to purchase the components work up your load and practice a lot more than with factory loads. There are some great cast bullets out there for the 45 and those who cast them are generally very helpful with load data for their bullets and other questions about them. Also the bulk bullets from Remington and Win will allow you to practice more, as well as offering a couple which would work for your purpose.

Good luck in your hunting and as well with your next choice of handgun. One caliber and gun is fine, more is always better.

[BuckShotBilly]

I would prefer a larger handgun like the Desert Eagle in 44 mag.

Desert Eagles are so UNreliable. I would stick with the .44 or the S&W .500