[Shawnee]

Well known that C&B revolver replica users often find themselves replacing broken parts - so much so that some lads routinely buy extras to have on hand.

Also well known that many of today's C&B replicas need serious gunsmithing right out of the box.

Also popular for guys to buy "conversion cylinders" so they can use smokeless powder cartridges in their C&B replicas.

So a fellow goes and pays $200-$300 (or more) for a gun that is prone to parts breakage and may well need immediate gunsmithing - and then pays an additional $200-$300 for a conversion cylinder - which means he has invested $400 -$600 (or more) in a gun that is still prone to small parts breakage and may well need additional gunsmithing.

Meanwhile, Thompson/Center can build pistols that will shoot MOA groups at 100yds. with .243 ammo.

Seems to me there is something very wrong with that picture. :banghead:


If T/C, or anyone, would build a quality, reliable replica of the sweet-handling 1851 or 1861 Navy, or the 1860 Army in, say, 38 Special or 32 Long etc., I know I would buy (and immensely enjoy) at least one and probably two (or more). But nobody does.

What's up with that ?:confused:

[sundance44s]

The only thing my replica`s are guilty of is they ....ARE A HOOT TO SHOOT !

[Misfire99]

This is not uncommon when when shoots IPSC. Lots of guys have extra parts on hand. Slide stops mostly and links. And it's common to buy a high dollars pistol and ship it right off to a smith.

With a C&B I have never had any problems with either of mine. And I don't have extra parts for them. I think you're seeing a phenomena of the internet. The vast majority of the people that shoot C&B never has to do anything to them so they don't talk about doing nothing. Where there are some people that have some sort of problem, real or imagined, that talk about it a lot. Just because you see a lot of talk doesn't mean there are a lot of problems.

[ArmedBear]

Thompson/Center got out of the traditional black powder business a while ago. They used to make great stuff.

Now they make a whole bunch of in-lines, which are cheaper and easier to build, and people pay just as much, along with their quirky love-em-or-hate-em single shot line, and now the .22s and bolties.

If you ask me, we didn't really need yet another bolt gun (or yet another .30 caliber cartridge), though the .22's are nice. I miss the top-quality T/C black powder stuff.

[sundance44s]

Very true Misfire ...years ago I filled a small box with extra parts ...Have I used them ...no ..unless I give one to someone else that needs one .

[6_gunner]

$300 sounds pretty steep for a C&B revolver unless your talking about one of the more unusual models like a Walker, or a stainless version. My Pietta Remington New Army copy was $150 used, in excellent condition.

Mine has been maddeningly prone to small parts breakage. I've had two mainsprings break, one cylinder stop/trigger spring, and two "hand" springs, all in about 4 years. It's currently out of operation because I haven't bothered to replace the second broken hand.

I also bought a .45 colt cylinder, which I subsequently sold because I hardly ever used it. That caused me more problems because I had to fit the cylinder stop so that it would work properly with the cartridge cylinder. Now that I'm using the percussion cylinder again, I can't get it to work properly with that! I tried to fit a new cylinder stop, but I haven't been able to get the timing right. :banghead:

It's been a lot of fun when it's working, but it's beena PITA to keep it working!

[Tommygunn]

I think in general the quality has gone up recently. A few weeks ago I examined a Uberti Leech & Rigdon I had purchased new about 1993. I noted from the marking from a sheet I'd printed out about how to determine a date of manufacture for a C&B revolver (obtained from this site) that the revolver was actually made in 1985! I guess Leech & Rigdons sold real real slow in the '90s! Anyway, while the revolver was nice the wood was lackluster and dullish; modern Ubertis have much much better wood -- even if the color may not be to a purist's liking.
Pietta has improved their guns a lot in recent years too.
Plus, as many have said, other guns have their problems. Modern guns are prone to manufacturer's defects and to breakage do to stress and wear of firing. You are battering a mechanical device, after all. The gun was designed to take it in it's way, but consider a revolver with a cylinder that is on a crane. It's meant to take fore-aft forces of recoil, but people who know them will tell you not to snap the cylinder shut like you see on TV or you might hurt the crane and how it fits into the frame of the gun.

[JCT]

I don't know how you came to that conclusion. I've never had a part break on my C&B revolvers. I keep extra screws, nipples and wedges in the event that I lose one while shooting or cleaning. I haven't yet lost one, but if I do, I won't be waiting for a delivery.
The Uberti's I own are all high quality and didn't require any tuning to be fully operational and work as designed. I did however fine tune them, lighten up and stiffen springs where needed, file sights, polish parts..etc. Out of the box, they're generally fine. I've heard bad things about Palmettos and Piettas, they seem to use lower quality steel and stamp alot of the parts.
The only broken part I've ever had was recently in my new Beretta Gold Rush rifle. A cartirdge stop spring broke for some reason. Easy fix, working great again.
I myself am not into conversions, I don't get that either. If I'm going to spend $600, it'll be for a $600 gun, not a C&B and conversion.

[sundance44s]

The price of the conversion cylinders keeps a lot of folks from trying them .......they do work great in all 4 of my Remmies ...they are historicaly correct ..these pistols were useing cartridge conversion cylinders long before the Colt SAA came into the big picture ..They are much easyer to load and unload than the Colt SAA when used in a Remmie , Open top Colts they might be not worth the trouble loading and unloading ,,but they are correct too.
With hand loaded Black Powder cartridges ..they go together like peas and carrots .

[mykeal]

Shawnee - it's absolutely not true that nobody builds high quality percussion revolvers any more. Take a look at the Ruger Old Army. Then take a look at the price. Then compare that price with the price of a Uberti or Pietta 1851 Navy or 1858 Remington New Army.

And USFA is expected to market a percussion revolver soon, at a price that's expected to be twice the ROA.

So, if you're dissatisfied with the current offering of foreign made replicas, just get out your wallet. The quality is available, at a price. Just like it always has been and always will be.

[ArmedBear]

The new Ubertis are really nice.

There are other guns, too, if you are looking for something that harks back to the mid-19th century rather than the mid-1970s, but want top quality.

Pedersoli's Rogers and Spencer and Remington New Model Army competition models are top-notch, and still based on the original pistols. http://www.davidepedersoli.com/

The ROA is a quality firearm. To someone with a liking for historical firearms, its appearance seems bastardized, with Colt-style grips and screw-together grip frame, a fat Remington-style upper frame design, a round barrel, Rogers & Spencer lever design with a Remington-style rib. If you are not looking for something that looks and feels "original", though, it's known for accuracy, durability and build quality.

[bigbadgun]

SHawnee I have 2 C&B revolvers I have a Walker I paid $185 for at a gun shop and I have a 1851 colt navy made by Pietta which i paid $165 for. There is no problem with either the Pietta I bought new took it out of the box cleaned it took it to the range and loaded it and then effectively unloaded it at 25yards with a 6 shot group of a little less than 3 inches i dont know where you are getting your info but it is WRONG:banghead:

[mainmech48]

Peronally, I think this one got started back when the market was filled with Italian and Spanish stuff that, for the most part, exhibited wildly inconsistent levels in QC and workmanship.

We have to remember that in the early days of C&B repros many were never really designed or built with the prospect of regular use in mind. I think most of us can remember when heat treatment, except for cosmetic color case hardening, was virtually non-exisitent on lockwork parts and even springs were more likely to be almost dead-soft or glass-brittle than not. I had my share of frustration and disappointment with some of my early revolvers, and I'm sure others did too. Most of the manufacturers and vendors seemed to look at them as more 'novelty' items where 'authentic' looks and a low selling price were more important than long service life or reliable function.

In short, the continuing myth came from some basis in fact, whether we like it now or not.

I'm glad to say that this has been getting much, much better over the last 15 years or so. Most of the real junk has been Darwined-out and QC seems to have improved a good deal elsewhere. With the advances in CMC and CAD/CAM coming into use and the Big Boys like Beretta acquiring some of the small Gardone companies who dominate the market we should see some more really nice stuff coming out shortly.

[Jim K]

I have a USFA percussion revolver, and it looks pretty nice, but I have not fired it. The simple fact is that percussion revolvers today are toys, made as such and priced as such. Any of the makers could produce a percussion revolver as well made and reliable as any S&W or Ruger revolver made, but it would cost as much and no one would pay the price for a toy.

Just one example: A serious percussion revolver needs a safety system, yet reproduction Colts almost all* lack the cylinder safety pins, although the hammer notch is present. Why? Because putting in the safety pins would cost money and no one today (at least no one sane) is carrying a percussion revolver full up for defense.

*The exception is the Colt repros, and the USFA, which do have safety pins.

Jim

[Texoma]

A toy your kidding right.Just because it lacks a saftey system you consider
it a toy.A dangerous toy if thats what you want to call it.

[.44walkersabot]

Sir, do you work for Thompson/Center?...Okay...
Ohhhh, get together with me sometime and let me tell you about me and my Uberti .44Walker and just a little bit about where all we'vd been together and what all we'vd made it through together. NOW, I don't care how cold the wind blows or how much the snow drifts, or what the beaver or the wolverine and the pararie dogs are doing, and I don't care where the antelope are bunching up. (I will later on when I get back home but that's then) RIGHT NOW, I'm back down in Alabama visiting my family members and I'm in front of a nice little propane heater with a cup of coffee, sitting here in front of this fine computer, but I ain't always set in front of a propane heater, and I ain't always had a cup of coffee when I wanted one, or a computer. That Walker has fed me, it has protected me and it has even built my fires, and it has NEVER failed, and that's the truth. It could fail the next time I go to bust a cap (one never knows) but I'm not going to hold my breath 'til it happens...Okay...

[dwave]

You know, those "toys" has killed many people and should NEVER be labeled as such. I got a FEG PA-63 for less price than my 1851 Navy. Is that a "toy" also? I repeat, a firearm REGARDLESS of price is not a toy, ever.

EDIT: They are reproductions too, they are going by the designs of revolvers from 1800's and they didn't have much in terms of safeties. And again, please never call them toys, it can give people the wrong idea.

[K.A.T.]

I think Jim is saying most people buy Cap and Ball pistols just to play with at the shooting range or in the back yard. I'm sure a few people have one loaded in their vechile or home for protection. Sounds to me he is saying that the companies that build the Cap and Ball pistols think of them as a hobby gun, and not used everyday in life and death situations. If they considered them to be used primarily in life and death situations maybe they would be a little more concerned with the parts being more reliable or made of a better quality steel. I don't think Jim is trying to call a firearm a toy.

[Tommygunn]

Just one example: A serious percussion revolver needs a safety system, yet reproduction Colts almost all* lack the cylinder safety pins, although the hammer notch is present. Why? Because putting in the safety pins would cost money and no one today (at least no one sane) is carrying a percussion revolver full up for defense.

*The exception is the Colt repros, and the USFA, which do have safety pins.

Jim

Jim, Ubertis have the safety pins and have as far back as I've known them. Piettas were different, the 1860s I've seen from the '90s had 'em but the 1851 Navies did not. However, the new 1851s (I own one from Cabela's) do have them & they work fine and the cylinder is timed well and locks tight.
Now, I have a Armi San Marco brass-framed 1860 that has no pins and have seen 90s ASM 1851 Colts with no pins ... but saw an ASM Colt 1861 in a nice case that was being sold second-hand that did have pins and looked as nice overall as any Uberti.
I own a Palmetto Eli Whitney Navy .36 that while it works fine, shoots straight, and had the Remington like hammer notches in between chambers, the way the hammer nose is cut and the rear cylinder face is contoured, the hammer nose simply will not fit unless maybe a Dremel is applied, a task I don't think I will bother with since it doesn't matter to me that much.
Oh ... I also have a Palmetto 1851 that's a brass frame reminiscent of a Augusta Machine Works that of course has no pins.
I believe all the reasonably good Colt repros do have pins.
The cheapos skimp.

[Riot Earp]

Let's not forget Euroarms. They are building a very fine Rogers & Spencer for a bit more money than a Uberti. They can be purchased for around $350. It's a durable gun, inside and out -- maybe the most durable cap & ball revolver under $400.

[dwave]

Sounds to me he is saying that the companies that build the Cap and Ball pistols think of them as a hobby gun, and not used everyday in life and death situations.

Then I believe he should have said hobby gun, not toy. A firearm is never a toy, even the manuals that come with the gun say that.

[Jim K]

Thanks, K.A.T., you have explained my thinking better than I did. I don't consider any gun a "toy" in the sense that it is not dangerous. But gun makers who KNOW their guns may be used in life or death situations take a lot more care than makers who believe that their product will only be used for recreational shooting. This is not only true of percussion revolvers, but of guns like 1911 clones, often turned out with more concern for "cool" looks than for absolute reliability, the bottom line for a serious purpose firearm.

Hi, Tommygunn, I have one of the first Navy Arms Ubertis and it has no pins, nor do any of my other repros until quite recently, maybe around 1980. I am glad they are now putting them in; they are not as good as the Remington safety notches, but better than nothing if one insists on carrying a C&B revolver fully loaded in case of a surprise cavalry raid.

Jim

[Old Fuff]

Here in Arizona we never know when there is going to be an indian raid... :what:

Even so I carry my C&B revolvers with the hammer down on an empty chamber, and hope there will be no more the 5 indians... ;)

So far I'm still around... :D

[JCT]

All in all, I'd have to say that the Replicas made today are probably as good or better than the originals. Spec for spec, they're generally the same measurements, same designs, same woods, but with modern metals and modern manufacturing methods that ensure precision.
From what I've read, most original cap and balls were cast iron, much weaker and brittle when compared to machined steel.
I can't see how a well tuned Uberti Walker, or any C&B for that matter could be improved, aside from serious changes that aren't in the original design. You have to keep in mind that they are replicas, with limitations inherent in their design. I don't shoot my C&B's with the same expectations as modern guns.
For what they are, they're built well and do what they're supposed to.

[bigbadgun]

You know some people just dont get it.
I have modern hand guns also but i get more pleasure shotting my C&B and muzzle stuffers than I do from my modern stuff, maybe i just dont get it. LOL

[sundance44s]

Wow if you think the Itilian repro guns are crap ..go watch a SASS match and see the modern day cowboys put these guns through hard fast fireing hell ..the originals could have never seen so much action in a day , and the black powder shooters seem to get a kick out of loading for bear ..lots of smoke and flames .

[Roswell 1847]

I've installed safety pins on at least four of the early repro guns. They all had the slot in the hammer nose but none had safety pins.

I just picked a finishing nail of the correct diameter to be a sliding fit in the hammer slots, then picked a machinist bit that made a hole that was a slightly closer than friction fit to the pins cut from the finishing nail. Then tapered and roughed the ends of the pins with a needle nosed pliers that had hardened teeth. Tapping the pins home then trimming to length.

I used the fairly soft finishing nails because they would bend rather than snap and were easy to work with.
There's little stress on these pins in normal use.

[mainmech48]

In essence, I have to agree with Jim. I used the word "novelty" in much the same context where he used "toy". Semantic nuances aside, I think we would pretty much all agree that the majority of 'first' C&B revolver purchases are usually made out of curiousity, with casual recreation and diversion in mind. The comparatively low price for examples of the more common models plays no small part in the rationalization process too, IMO. Most folks of my acquaintance are loathe to divert much more than a couple of hundred bucks all told for something that they strongly suspect will most likely turn out to be a passing fancy.

And for most of them that's exactly what happens. They discover that shooting supplies aren't less expensive than regular ammo, cleaning is a laborious PITA, it's extremely difficult to hit what they're aiming at with much consistency, and that the whole process involves more than they really want to mess with on a regular basis.

If you look at what the really fine replica revolvers, especially of the truly fascinating and groundbreaking designs like the Le Mat or the Starr, they do cost as much or more as many modern weapons. It takes a certain level of both interest and dedication for that level of investment, and that market is a pretty small niche. As Jim said, there just aren't that many folks ready and willing to pay what it would cost to build all C&B replicas to the same levels of fit, function, finish and materials as the average modern cartridge weapon. And if the potential market won't support it, it doesn't get built.

[Roswell 1847]

C&B guns offer some options that are either illegal or require a heavy transfer tax. Such as detachable buttstocks, smooth bore pistols that handle shot, etc.

Also I doubt seriously if you'll see a modern handgun with a 20 ga shotgun barrel built in like the Le Mat.

No one I know has had any problem hitting well with a C&B pistol, even non shooters who I've introduced to the sport.
One stone hippy I allowed to fire my Colt Navy was so enthused he just had to have one. His wife went ballistic because they were both anti-gun and pacifists.
He couldn't admit that the C&B revolver was a real gun, it couldn't be a real gun because it didn't use cartridges. Theres a psychological distancing at work there.

[pohill]

You're in a crowded mall. Suddenly someone opens up with a semi-auto and starts shooting innocent people. You reach into your coat, pull out your handgun, fire off two, three, four shots and take him out.
Now - quick, what gun do you have in your hand?
I own 12 BP revolvers, but the one in my hand is a Ruger .357 Speed Six.

OK, now you're on horseback in the Rockies, a griz charges at you...

[Roswell 1847]

OK, now you're on horseback in the Rockies, a griz charges at you...
Theres an entry in the journal of a surveyor of the 1840-50s in which he describes the attack on his party by a Western Grizzly.
The rifles and smaller caliber handguns failed to make much impression. Then a Dragoon sergeant assigned to protect the party rode up and "Fired two shoots from a Colts Dragoon Pistol of the Largest Size", probably a Walker.
The Bear dropped instantly with two hits to the center of the heart.

There are more effective modern guns out there no doubt, but a C&B revolver is far from being a toy.

You're in a crowded mall. Suddenly someone opens up with a semi-auto and starts shooting innocent people. You reach into your coat, pull out your handgun, fire off two, three, four shots and take him out.
Now - quick, what gun do you have in your hand?
My Navy .36 could handle that scenario rather efficiently.
Its highly accurate and of sufficient power to paint the shop windows with goblin brains at better than 25 yards offhand from the draw. And much easier and swifter to bring on target with a steady hold than most modern revolvers.
I probably would not CCW it but if it was the only handgun available I'd have confidence that it would do the job if called on.

[pohill]

My Navy .36 could handle that scenario rather efficiently.


Absolutely. But I know what Jim Keenan meant. I would not call BP revolvers "toys" except in the sense that my sailboat is a toy, my car is my toy, etc. Heck, I've called my Ruger .357 my "toy."

Remember..."he who dies with the most toys wins."

I shoot the Ruger .357 maybe once a year. I shoot a BP revolver at least once a week. And I'm just as accurate with my BP revolvers as with a modern gun. But when I hear of someone stopping a bad guy with their gun, as in the case of the female security guard the other day (my latest hero), and I wonder how I would have reacted (as most of us probably do), I always imagine it with a modern gun in my hand.

[Pancho]

Not to speak for Shawnee but I don't think that he intended to suggest that a c&b pistol could be a concealed carried firearm. Wild Bill would shootout, clean and reload his navies every morning. I believe what Shawnee was saying that installing conversion cylinders on a c&b revolver was like putting earrings on a hog. To this I have to agree but there is no stopping a fisherman buying the latest reel or the golfer the latest club design or the shooter spending more money than he should in hopes of increasing his enjoyment.
The only danger in this as I see it is so far we muzzleloaders have come under the feds radar but they've begun to notice the conversions. Let's not under estimate the fed's ability for stupidity.

[.44walkersabot]

Mr. Roswell, Yeah, a Walker will kill a big ol' bear. I don't know about the heart shot. A grizzly can tear up some stuff after he's dead. Sometimes they don't know they're dead and that they're supposed to lay down and be still. The head shot will bring him as long as you don't maybe shoot him in the 'forehead' so to speak. That bone is real thick. But even so, hitting him there will turn him. (most of the time-sometimes-now and then- every once in a while-maybe- there IS a possibility) I'vd never killed a Grizzly or the Alaskan Brown Bear with a Walker. Never been put to it where I had to try but I have no doubt you could mess up his health record with a heavy dose of Triple Seven fffg setting behind that .457..
One time I had a moose quartered up and hanging close to my little camp, which is a no-no. I had chunked up some of the moose meat and was cooking it in a pot of pinto beans since I didn't have any bacon or hocks to put in them. I was going to load it up the next morning into my canoe (I had a 17 foot Grumman. I was on the Kuskoquim River) and give it to this old Eskimo woman in the village of Napaskiak (I guess that's how you spell it. Close to Bethel anyway) who didn't have anyone to hunt for her. Well anyway, a large black bear came in to get the meat. I could hear him coming. (they sound just like a horse trotting) I was by my cook fire (small fire) leaning back against a tree smoking a cigarette. I had my CVA .45 loaded with 110 grains of Triple Seven fffg (( 3f [fffg] is all I shoot) behind a 300 grain Powerbelt Platinum leaning up against the tree right beside of me, but I shot the bear in the side of the head one time with the Walker. I only had 48 grains of Triple Seven 3fffg in each chamber but that one shot brought him, no problem. (I learned later that Eskimo's kill them with a .22 Long Rifle. They shoot them in the ear That's about where I hit this one with the Walker)
I believe that about what you said that man wrote into his journal. He undoubtedly was writing of the Walker.That man didn't have any reason to lie and he had every reason to tell the truth. Well anyway...Okay...

[Misfire99]

You're in a crowded mall. Suddenly someone opens up with a semi-auto and starts shooting innocent people. You reach into your coat, pull out your handgun, fire off two, three, four shots and take him out.
Now - quick, what gun do you have in your hand?
I own 12 BP revolvers, but the one in my hand is a Ruger .357 Speed Six.

OK, now you're on horseback in the Rockies, a griz charges at you...

If a Griz tries to take you off of horse back you're in the cold meats section. Someone else in your party might be able to shoot it but not you. It happens way to fast. By the time you realize your under attack you're either dead or well out of trying to fight back. You would be more interested in stopping the flow of blood.

The county where I live has had five grizzly bear attacks in the last two months.

[Shawnee]

Well said, Pancho ! :)

I just think it would be much nicer if one could simply buy a quality 1861 Navy already chambered for some fun plinking cartridge like the 38 Special.
It would be a reliable, sweet-handling, cheap-to-shoot, easy-to-maintain piece right out of the box.

I have an 1875 Remington replica chambered for .357/38 and it's major fun to shoot (and accurate) with 38 Special wadcutters. Just doesn't have that sweet Navy "feel". :cool: With .357s it would surely make a passable defense gun but there are certainly better CC weapons.

I wouldn't choose any BP pistol (even my ROA) for a dedicated defense piece.

:cool:

[dwave]

Hey Shawnee, Cimarron Firearms has conversions and the such if you want a black powder gun that has already been converted.

[Old Fuff]

You can buy reproductions of C & B cartridge conversions based on the basic 1851/1861 Navy pattern.

Converting reproduction C & B revolvers to cartridge isn't always as easy or good as it might seem. Most of them have oversided bores for the size of the intended cartridge, while the so-called "conversion" guns have correct bore sizes they shouldn't be converted backwards to make them a caplock.

Also lets not forget that the Colt's are only held together by a wedge or key that passes through a slot in the barrel and basepin. You will never see a responsible manufacturer make one for any Magnum cartridge. They are supposed to be used with black powder, or nothing hotter then smokeless cowboy action shooting loads with lead bullets.

[Shawnee]

Hi dwave and OF...

Looked it up - you're talking about the Uberti-made "Richards-Mason" Conversions, right ?

They look good. Any idea of th quality ? :confused:

[Old Fuff]

Looked it up - you're talking about the Uberti-made "Richards-Mason" Conversions, right ?

That or the so-called 1872 open-top model. The difference is that the Richards-Mason converions are made on a cap & ball frame and use a ring in the breech, where the 1872 model uses a new frame that doesn't need a ring. I don't have a lot of experience with them, but I'd say the quality is equal or better then Uberti's current cap & balls, which I consider to be pretty good. I have thought of getting one, but if I do it will be chambered in nothing larger then .38 Special if it's built on the Navy platform.

Since you like the Navy model, you might look at Cimarron's "man with no name" offering.

[dwave]

I don't know about the Conversions, but my Dad bought a 1872 Open Top From Cimarron and it seems very well made. It's a 38 Special model, and very nice looking.

[Tommygunn]

Hi dwave and OF...

Looked it up - you're talking about the Uberti-made "Richards-Mason" Conversions, right ?

They look good. Any idea of th quality ?

I have the Richards-Mason Conversion built on a 1851 Navy by Uberti. The quality is IMO top-rate. Like a lot of Ubertis, the color case hardening could stand to be improved, but otherwise it's very good.
The one problem I note, and have heard was present in originals, is the wedge tends to ease out as it's shot, so I have to keep abreast of that as it effects the smooth functioning of the mechanism.
I have shot .38SP cowboy loads in mine, and have got TEN-X made .38 Long Colt which is real nice and is loaded with blackpowder. These are fun and will not stretch the frame. I also have TEN-X .38 Short Colt. Interestingly, they are not BP, but modern powder loaded to the correct pressure for the cartridge. They must be really anemic cartridges since they make more of a "popping" sound than a bang!!!
If you get one you'll likely enjoy it. But don't use modern jacketed ammo. If you want .38SP use cowboy loads. No jacketed stuff period.

[Shawnee]

The 1872 looks like the way to go. It's fine with regular 38 Specials too. Pricy though:eek:, so I'll have to be content with my 1875 Remington until I can sell something. May have to be a 4th of July present. LOLOL !!! :D

[Norseman_01]

I've had perfect luck with my 1858 Pietta NMA revolvers. I have conversion cylinders for them I got during a group buy a while ago. (yes, they are mostly a novelty... I would never walk the streets with them)

I shoot SASS with the 58's using round ball or conicals.

My walker sees use during the summer quite frequently. Again, its a novelty.

My 1860s are GREAT for competition but a pain to load compared ot my 58s. Just as accurate. Weigh less too...

I like my cap guns alot... good fun.

[.44walkersabot]

Please define the word 'novelty' sir, if you would be so kind. Thank you very much.

[Misfire99]

When I see the word novelty I think of an Ice Cream Cone. They are sold as novelties. That means their primary purpose is fun. And that's why I shoot C&B revolvers, for the fun of it.

[bigbadgun]

Misfire99 have you ever hunted with a C&B revolver before now thats FUN

[bigbadgun]

I have taken wild hog with my Walker one shot after watching my friends .38 bounce off its skull. That was the turning point for me thats when i stopped useing modern for hunting. It impressed me that much. Oh and that was 50grain charge topped off with a .454 lead ball.

[Misfire99]

Actually I am seriously considering it. I bought an 1858 Remington Texan model, it has a twelve inch barrel, with a shoulder stock. I haven't had the chance to fire it yet but hope to today. If I do well with it I think it might go into the bush with me.

I was talking to one of my neighbors and he hunts with an 1858 carbine. He says he harvests deer with it regularly.

[Old Fuff]

Misfire99:

Be very careful how you hold that revolver/carbine! Never get your left hand on the barrel in front of the cylinder. Always keep it under the trigger guard.

If you should get a chain-fire, and your hand was in front of the cylinder you could lose it. This sometimes happened during the 1800's, and is the reason this kind of firearm wasn't all that popular. Today few users know of the danger.

[Mike OTDP]

(Sigh)

Let me drag this back to the original discussion.

Most of the Italian makers are building guns for the plinker/reenactor market. If the gun can be sold cheap, will fire without exploding, will make a puff of smoke, and will send a bullet in the general direction of the target, the customers are happy.

There are VERY few replicas that come within hailing distance of an original. Original Colts are tight...repros are frequently very loose guns. Original Remingtons can frequently use a trigger job...but the basic guns will go shot-for-shot with a bullseye-tuned 1911.

Now, if you want a good repro revolver, Pedersoli makes pretty good ones. But if you want the very best, the Hege Army Match Maximum and the FWB Rogers & Spencer are the top picks. Walk down the line at the World Championships, and you'll find that the top shooters are using those.

[mainmech48]

novely n 1: Something new or unusual 2: The quality or state of being novel 3: A small manufactured article intended mainly for personal amusement or household adornment.

I used the word in the context of the third definition.

Old Fluff is right. Assuming that one could actually chamber a .357 magnum cartridge in a .38 Spl. conversion cylinder or one of the replica Richards, Richards-Mason or 1872 revolvers touching it off would be a Very Bad Thing Indeed for all concerned.

Ditto being right on the size difference in the bores. IIRC, the original conversion cartridges (.44 Colt and .38 Colt) used heeled and/or hollow based bullets of a diameter more closely approximating that of the actual nominal bore sizes of the C&B base revolvers. It's my understanding that the purpose-built .38 spl. replicas use the smaller 'modern' nominal bore spec. to ensure better accuracy.

Mike, how about the limited production 1858 replicas that Pietta has (had?) which duplicated the originals dimensionally and used the original 'progressive' rifling? Do you still see them around at the Big Time matches? IIRC, they won the gold at Toronto and Pforzheim back in the late '80s.

[Mike OTDP]

The Pietta high-end guns are seen sometimes...but msot of the top-flight shooters are using the Hege or FWB.

[pohill]

(sigh)
I learn something new every day, or at least once a month. I did not know there was a U.S. International Muzzle-Loading Team. Interesting. What is a "top flight shooter"?
Do the Hege or FWB have any link to historically accurate weapons? (ooops, just re-read that the FWBs are Rogers & Spencers. Answers that question).

I haven't handled enough originals to compare them to the replicas, but I do know that the ones I own can do better than "fire without exploding, will make a puff of smoke, and will send a bullet in the general direction of the target." Much better.
I have a pair of relatively inexpensive downhill skiis that a ski racer would probably turn his nose at, but they get me down the hill in style, and they are alot of fun.

But, at the end of the day, I probably have to admit that I am a Plinker.

[.44walkersabot]

Amen, Mr. Pohill, and all the people said amen...Okay...
P.S. I just got off the phone. Guess who I was talking to? A man who used to travel all over this country participating in Championship blackpowder matches. He told me the reason these people shot Hege and Pedersoli was because the guns were furnished to them free of charge. He said that when he participated in rifle matches, Winchester and Remington and all of them were offering them rifles to use free of charge, and trying to get them (the shooters) to use their ammunition and what all.
He also told me that the Remington 1858 New Model Army .44 caliber Target Model with adjustable sights was one of the most popular revolvers around for shooting Match Competition. Well, anyway...Okay...

[Mike OTDP]

Bunk. I can assure you that we are NOT provided these guns free of charge. In the 10 years that I've been with the USIMLT, I have NEVER seen an American shooter offered a firearm without paying for it out of his own pocket.

Now, some of the foreign teams are subsidized...particularly the Germans and French. It would not surprise me to hear that their best shooters are given guns. But not American shooters.

[.44walkersabot]

Mike ODTP, you may be right. Then again he may be right. Then again both of you may be right. I don't know. I don't shoot Match Competition. I do know that I'm a damn good shot. I do know that the blackpowder revolvers (replica's you call them) that I use always hit the mark and get the job done. I don't have any complaints. Still have a little trouble now and then with the Walker, but that's me and not the gun. Well, anyway...Okay...
P.S. Does America (USA) win these matches quite often? Truthfully, about the only shooting team I keep up with center's around the Marines and I don't keep up with them the way I used to. I see a little about them every once in a while in Leatherneck Magazine or The American Rifleman...Okay...

[Rachen]

Any gun can be a hobby gun. A Glock shooter who owns an 1851 navy for range work will call his 1851 Navy a hobby gun. An 1851 Navy shooter who owns a Glock for range work will call his Glock a hobby gun. However, I prefer black powder. Why? Black powder is a natural substance. It is given to us by God. Sulfur in the deepest regions of caverns. Saltpetre in the hanging lofts of caverns, charcoal in the lightning blasted trees which have absorbed a part of lightning's fire. It is as natural as bloodroot dyes used by the Cherokees to dye their hunting shirts years before the first white man entered the Southern Appalachian with their ponies and arquebuses, as natural as fragrance boiled from the petals of paperwhite narcissi plants. My girlfriend loves it. Also ginseng root which is good for heart remedies. Yep, I like it natural, all my foods and medicines. No preservatives, no carcinogens, no bulls***

Me, I've handled percussion revolvers since I was 10 years old and I grew very very fond of them. My first one was a Uberti Remington 1858 Army. I usually take it when I go urban exploring in the various abandoned asylums and factories of the Northeast a few years back and also today. Loaded with 33 grains of 80 percent saltpeter blackpowder that I made myself, relying on the specs of the old DuPont Sporting Powder of the 1840's and 50s. A 140 grain Hornady swaged lead ball. For long term storage, I usually melt tallow over the capped nipples so that the tallow will flow around them and make a watertight, airtight seal. Same thing with the chamber mouths, tallow or beeswax or both. At the end of each month, I take it to the range and let em' off. Functioned perfectly, not to mention I took it with me during extremely hot and muggy days, ferocious rainstorms, or blinding blizzards. Otherwise, it sits in my desk drawer in my study along with my new Uberti Remington and the LeMat and when I am working long hours or have to pass through not-so-friendly areas, one of these will always find a place in my greatcoat or bag.

I read Percussion Pistols by MEC and also by world-of-mouth I learned that some companies such as Palmetto and Armi San Marco are more interested in making money than quality products and customer service. But Pietta and Uberti are different. The LeMat, built by Pietta is built to the highest standards the gun can offer and in the old days, the LeMat in the hands of Southern soldiers have smitten more than a fair number of scum and bluecoated arsonists and rapists during that War. The Ubertis perform flawlessly and in my old one, I only had to replace one odd handspring in all those years of service it provided me.

So, in my definition of a hobby gun, I shoot black powder seriously, I use smokeless for range work and practice.

[.44walkersabot]

Rachen....I don't know what to say. For the first time on here (I think) I have read another man who told the truth without trying to cover his ass by putting a 'but' in his statement after he told the truth.
It's like two different worlds that I see. I read people on here who bitch and complain constantly about blackpowder revolvers. They don't shoot straight, they jam up, the parts break, on and on and on.
Well, I shoot blackpowder revolvers, and I personally know several other people who shoot blackpowder revolvers, and to the best of my knowledge none of us have ever experienced the problems so many people on here are constantly complaining about. We shoot our revolvers, maybe plinking, for sure hunting, and for self and home defense. (as far as I know none of the people I know have ever actually had to use their piece for self or home defense, but while people can debate back and forth all they please, on the bottom line there shouldn't be any doubt whatsoever in the mind of any sane and normal person that a blackpowder revolver will kill someone's ass as dead as yesterday's fart)
When they have finished hunting or plinking they find a little time to sit down and clean their piece and replace the charges, and then go on about their business of working and taking care of their family, picking up a gallon of milk at the store for the kids, etc. etc., end of story.
Anyway, I'm real glad you jumped in here. You're like a breath of fresh air, Mr. Rachen. Well, anyway...Okay... I would have no qualms at all about staking my life on a Uberti or Pietta, especially if it was a .44...Okay...(Steel frame of course)...

[Donny]

Rachen, thank you for adding your two cents. I don't have the depth of experience you have with percussion revolvers but I have several of them my self and have been shooting them for at least the last 7 years. I'm always bemused when I read what others say about cap and ball revolvers being a poor choice for self defense. I have had few problems with mine outside of the occassional cap jam. A properly loaded and cared for cap and ball revolver is just as reliable as any modern hand gun and just as deadly. In fact I have had fewer reliability issues with my BP revolvers than most automatic pistols that I've shot. Whether my own or a friends, semi autos always seem to stove pipe on me. Moreover, the old cap and balls are generally more accurate as well. I have two Colt style revolvers that consistantly out shoot most of the modern guns I've shot with the exception of a Glock in 40s&w I shot once and even there the difference was not significant.

Don

[Mike OTDP]

.44walkersabot, we do OK. Not great, these days.

The international rules are very different from those used in N-SSA or most NMLRA competition, which hurts us. Not only are we shooting at metric distances, but many of the matches are for prone rifle shooting...and American BP shooters rarely shoot prone.

On top of that, we don't get a lot of industry support...the American makers of BP arms are focused on the muzzle-loading deer rifle market. And it costs BIG money to send a competitor to the Worlds. We are estimating that sending a single shooter to Adelaide next year will cost around $4,000.

And the Europeans DO get a lot of support. Both from their national federations and not infrequently from their governments. Hell, I know for a fact that German shooters at the 2004 World Championships were paid prizes of 5,000 Euro for each gold medal, on top of having their way paid.

It's made a big difference. The US team used to be dominant...now we are competitive, but can't count on walking away with bushels of medals the way we could 20 years ago.

If anyone is interested, the US team web site is www.usimlt.org. The overall international federation, the Muzzle-Loading Associations International Committee, is at www.mlaic.org

[.44walkersabot]

Mike, I looked at the site. I also sent Gary an e-mail to <gary@impressionsinink.net.>...I don't know if he will get it. I don't mess with Outlook Express too much. I sent him one from my regular Yahoo e-mail address. Maybe he will get it...Okay...

[Mike OTDP]

Please resend to usimlt@shentel.net. Gary retired, that's his home e-mail.

Remind me to scrub the Web site.

[Mike OTDP]

And I apologize for the inconvenience. Working 50-55 hours/week does not do good things for keeping things up to date.

[Tony4VA]

Gentlemen: I urge you not to carry bp revolvers for personal protection.
1) A loaded bp gun will eventually suffer corrosion in the chambers. A smokeless cartridge gun won't if well maintained.
2) Even here in the People's Republic of Massachusetts, antiques and antique replicas are exempt from the extremely restrictive gun laws here in Kennedy country. All we need here is a story of someone getting into trouble using a bp revolver and it's goodbye to all the exemptions. Remember, the entire bp shooting clan depends on maintaining a low profile in public and not waving a red flag in front of the Boston Bluenoses. God knows they have enough ideas without us giving them more reasons.
Remember guys: Pour in the black stuff first.

[mykeal]

Tony4VA - Your first reason is not correct. There's plenty of empirical evidence to the contrary. Your second reason is both correct and compelling, and there's plenty of empirical evidence to support that as well.

[pohill]

I heard that the reason BP weapons are basically exempt here in MA is because of all the antiques hanging in various state buildings. They would have to come down or be secured if they were regulated like modern guns.

[mykeal]

I heard that the reason BP weapons are basically exempt here in MA is because of all the antiques hanging in various state buildings. They would have to come down or be secured if they were regulated like modern guns.

The implication is that the legislature would be reluctant to spend the money it would take to pay people to dismantle the displays, create the secure storage facilities and then put the guns into storage. Do you honestly believe the MA General Court is so fiscally responsible that the cost of such an exercise is a deterrent?

[pohill]

It's not the cost - believe me - it's the historical atmosphere, the ambiance, that they don't want to lose, because it translates into tourist dollars. What would Massachusetts be without muskets?

Again, it's only what I heard. Is it fact or opinion? In this state, who knows?

[mec]

FWB have any link to historically accurate weapons

I believe that's where pedersoli gets their remington and R&S revolvers.

Buying a percussion revolver is always something of a crapshoot and even with the best examples, it is not unusual to have to do some tuning to get it working right. Over the past few years, Uberti quality has been much better than in the earlier decades and it has been possible to shoot them with a minimum of spare parts and agrevation. This could change virtually over night as quality often depends on individual employees withing a firm or pressure from bean counters who build products to sell rather than to shoot.

The only reason I can see for using them for self defense is if you are unable to get a more modern gun and this is the case in a number of jurisdictions. Being a traditionalist or neo luddite is not enough reason to overcome the potential for cap jams or broken leaf springs.

the original colts I have handled and shot (not very many of those), handle just like the best ubertis and seem to be of about the same quality. It is a little hard to tell since all of the originals have seen some use. The full sized ubertis are often easier to shoot accurately than the bulk of modern handguns. The light triggers and long barrels help a lot while the crude sights are not as much of an impediment as they might appear.
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