[uneasy_rider]

I have been working up some 45 ACP loads in Winchester 231 using Winchester 230grain full metal jacket bullets. I am not getting the kind of velocity I want (I would be happy with 800-825 fps), even when I am at or near the maximum range of W231.

I have loaded some with W231 5.2g with 230g FMJs, and am ony getting around 700 fps. Some of the books list that as a max load, but some go up to 5.6g.

What kind of velocities do you get with 231, and are there better choices if I want to end up at about 800 fps?

[Art Eatman]

I found that 231 works great with 200-grain lead SWCs, for IPSC Major power factor. I think a slightly slower-burning powder would be better for a jacketed 230-grain bullet.

FWIW,

Art

[uneasy_rider]

What do you suggest for powder?

[BeJaRa]

well, .4 grains can make a good bit of difference with W231. is this from a 5" barrel?

[jfh]

I assume you are shooting from a standard (5") barrel? Is it undersized?

I checked the Hodgdon site (current owner of 231) and see they now stop at 5.3 gr--but that's a standard pressure round at 16,800. I don't see how you would exceed +P pressures running it up to 5.6 gr.

FWIW, I typically shoot a 200-gr. LSWC with about 5.0 gr. of 231, and that clocks solidly over 820 in typical summer weather.

For more velocity, try AA#5. Their 3.2 manual shows a load range of 7.8 to 8.7, a velocity range of 816 to 927, with pressure ending at 19,800 under a Nosler 230 FMJ.

Jim H.

[Vern Humphrey]

I have to tell you about WW 231.

Years ago, I went out on my lunch hour and bought a cannister of 231. In those days, it came in a tin cannister with a screw top. There was a paste-on label with "Ball Powder" printed on it, and the number was hand-stamped in much smaller characters.

I came back to work and realized my problem -- the temperature was in the high 90s. Can't leave it in my car. Don't want to take it up to the office and put it in my desk. Aha! I'll put it in my locker in the gym.

As I was opening the combination lock, a guy came out of the shower, saw the cannister on the bench, picked it up and said, "Ball powder?" <SCRATCH, SCRATCH> "Does this stuff work?"

I resisted the temptation to tell him to try some -- but don't smoke while you're using it.:D

[The Bushmaster]

I've been using W-231 for many years now...Only I use a 185 grain JHP (Remington). Loading them pretty hot I can get near 1,000 fps...I have not seen the need to load 230 grain bullets. My average loading nets me in the mid 850 fps.

[uneasy_rider]

Yes this is from a 5" barrel.. Actually, its two different 1911s and one HK... they all get about the same velocity.

[JA]

Trying to repoduce a mil spec load with WW-231 is just not going to happen as it is a mild target load powder. It really shines and produces top velocities in cartridges smaller than 9x19mm (25acp,32acp,380acp,9x18).
Loading 45acp I use Accurate Arms #5 powder as it was designed for loading 45acp,it is a ball powder so every charge out of the powder measure is dead on in weight,and costs several dollars less per pound than other brands of powder.

[Walkalong]

In those days, it came in a tin cannister with a screw top.
I still have one of those. Almost out though. Well, two, ones full of Argentine .308 powder.
AA #5, WSF, Universal Clays, True Blue, & N320 will all work quite well in the .45 in the range you are looking for.

I am suprised you can't get there with W-231. It's a very good all around .45 powder. Just through together a load with it and it will usually shoot well.

[JDGray]

It really shines and produces top velocities in cartridges smaller than 9x19mm (25acp,32acp,380acp,9x18).


You aint lying! I loaded some 9X18, for my Brother with 231, and shot a nice cloverleaf group offhand at 25' I also like it in my 32acp loads.

I loaded some 230gr HPs, with 5.6gr 231, and they averaged 800fps. My Speer #12 gives 5.6-6.2gr of 231 for a 230gr fmj. I dont know whats changed, but the new max for the same bullet is 5.1gr, as printed in Lees Modern Reloading#2.

[ArchAngelCD]

I like W231 for reloading the .45 ACP but if you want more velocity give Titegroup a try with Lead bullets or Longshot with Jacketed bullets. If you want to use just one powder for both Lead and Jacketed bullets you might like the results you get with HS-6.

[jibjab]

I really like W-231 for 185gr bullets, for 230gr I use AA#5 or Unique and Blue Dot for hot loads, which I will soon replace with Power Pistol.

[Black_Talon]

I've been using 231 with WW230FMJ for over 30 years now. My standard "range load" is 5.6gr with a Fed or CCI LP primer. This gives me around 800-830 fps out of all my 5" 1911s, with absolutely no pressure signs, or even very heavy recoil. I shoot this load weekly, out of any and all of my 1911s. It's clean and accurate, and certainly isn't "hot".

As several other posters have noted, more recent load data has been watered down (or lawyered down) compared to years past. The powder is still the same, as is the pressure, it's the lawyers that have been entered into the equation that are the problem.

[Steve C]

I got 797 fps with a Remington 230gr FMJ and 5.5grs of W231 lit off with a Winchester primer fired from my Combat Commander.

Unique with a load of 6.0 to 6.2grs will get you 850 fps with a 230gr bullet.

[bugs100]

5.0 gr Red Dot 910 fps with 230fmj

[xsquidgator]

I use up to 5.4 W231 with 230LRNs (I believe my Speer #13 or Lee#2 said 5.6 was the max W231 with 230 lead bullets) so I'm pretty sure that with 230FMJs you could go at least .4 or more grains higher with your W231. Like I said though I'd check the guides first but that's what I expect they'll say...

[Crimp]

5.5gr of WIN-213 gives me 816 fps with 230gr Berry's RNs @ 1.260" OAL in my 5" XD. 5.7gr gives me ~830 fps. 5.5 of 231 seems to be an accurate load, with an SD of 10 and is my favorite load.

My latest mail delivery was 1,000 230gr WIN FMJs. I expect very similar performance from them. Speer #13 takes 231 up to 6.2 max with FMJs.

[ADKWOODSMAN]

+1 for AA#5

[pinkymingeo]

AA5 is good, but staying within published max loads you won't beat AA7. Don't be surprised if you beat the book and break 1000fps.

[ShunZu]

Personal preference is 6.0 gr Unique behind a 200SWC that gets about 840 out my Gold Cup Nat Match.

[Noxx]

I prefer the Titegroup under 230s for my .45 loads, sometimes I go with UNQ for the 185's, but I'm just very satisfied with the way TG meters so consistently for me.

I'm only a 2/10 of a grain under max at 4.6, but have been plenty pleased with the results.

[Walkalong]

Don't be surprised if you beat the book and break 1000fps.
My advise is not to try to break 1000 FPS with 230 Gr bullets in the .45. :uhoh:

[CZ57]

AA#5 and True Blue would be very good choices. Then there's another powder that will load .45 ACP with similar chargeweights to 231: Ramshot ZIP is cleaner and it will produce higher velocity at equal pressure compared to 231. It is capable of match grade accuracy, as well.;)

[Crimp]

AA#5 and True Blue would be very good choices. ~CZ57

I shot a bunch of 230 FMJs over 7gr of True Blue today. Very pleasant load and nice groups on the paper. I was indoors under flourescents, so wasn't able to chrony them, but I'm assuming they were just over 800 fps in my 5" XD. On the way home, I picked up two more pounds of True Blue as I already prefer it in the 357 and 9 - now the 45 ;)

[Walkalong]

I just loaded a few rounds of .45 with 7.5 grains of True Blue and 230 Gr. Golden Sabers. I have not shot them yet. I use other powders for light and medium loads, but wanted to try some True Blue for some defensive type 230 Gr. loads.

[CZ57]

Crimp, some folks here believe that I'm secretly on Ramshot's payroll. I'm really just trying to get the word out. True Blue is the next generation for powder inventory simplicity and in some cases, it's hard to do any better. ZIP isn't as flexible, but for .38 Special and .45 ACP accuracy loads, it deserves a look. The bonus is that factory load velocity can be achieved with ZIP. If you need better than that in .45, True Blue will get it done.;)

[marlin.357]

I've had similar results with HP-38/W231 getting velocities in the 715-730 fps range with both FMJ & plated 230 gr bullets using 5.3 gr of HP-38 & W231 from different lots.

Uneasy_rider, maybe we got bad lots of powder? I don't expect that if I bump up my load by 0.3 gr I'll be getting 100 fps more.

[Crimp]

CZ, I've found True Blue to be the real do-it-all powder. I've even loaded .480 Ruger with it (after talking to Johann at Ramshot) back when I thought it was as slow on the burn-rate chart as is published. I figured it was an AA #7 or Blue Dot substitute. Now, I think it's much faster and fits right near WAP or HS6 on the chart.

I've questioned that though, with Silhouette also right beside, and equal to WAP. It doesn't make sense to me that Ramshot would carry two powders that close in burn rate. I can't get Silhouette locally but always wanted to try it to see. Silhouette seems like it would also be excellent for 9mm, 40 and heavy 45 ACP rounds too.

After shooting today, I believe I'll stick with True Blue & the 230gr .45 ACP. I might kick it up a notch to 7.2gr and see if I still hold a good pattern, but I doubt if I'll go any higher than that with a 230 grainer. I'm guessing that should give me about 830 fps in the 5" bbl.

Anyway, to stay on topic, I think 231 is a satisfactory powder for .45 and I've been using it for the last couple years, mainly with 185 grainers. Before that, I was running HS6 with the .45 auto and had excellent results with it in all bullet weights.

[Crimp]

I just loaded a few rounds of .45 with 7.5 grains of True Blue and 230 Gr. Golden Sabers. ~Walkalong

Walkalong, did you notice Ramshot's latest 4.2 data takes True Blue up to 7.8gr with a 230 FMJ? I'm guessing that chunk of lead would really sizzle! ;)

True Blue 230 SIE FMJ 7.0 832 7.8 905 19,400 1.270

[texjack]

I use Hodgdon "clays" with 230g fmj's. I load mine for IDPA & IPSC shooting with a min. 165pf. With 4.1gr of "clays" I get 750fps from my 5" 1911.I would suggest 4.3-4.4 gr to reach 800fps. This stuff is accurate and clean, the best I have found for the 45acp.

[cherryriver]

Winchester Super Target.
Four and a half grains for "major", near five for hardball.
I will guarantee that it will give less recoil at equal velocities than 231 or Titegroup or Unique- I tried it, with three different shooters and alternated loads. (A bunch of other powders, too.)
It's the modern, ball-type replacement for Bullseye, which is the civilian version of the powder the .45ACP was designed around. 1911s love it.
And it makes less racket, too.
I promise.
Bill

[BAT1]

I was using Tite Group and Clays for my .45 acp but I'm getting better results with Unique and Bullseye. Just works better in my 1911 Champ.

[Luggernut]

I use 5.2gr of 231 with a 1.260" COL, Berrys 230gr plated bullets, CCI or WLP and get about 740 ft/sec. This is just over the 165 PF and for matches I'd bump it a bit just to make sure.

I must ask: Why do you want 800+ ft/sec? I have found my loads to be plenty accurate and even with 60 ft/sec less... the bad guys still won't outrun them. :D

[cherryriver]

I make up my hardball equivalent loads (830fps) with about five grains of WST or Bullseye to duplicate the shooting effect of the Speer Gold Dot personal-protection load I use in my guns for non-range purposes.

[CZ57]

Crimp, I agree with you as far as placement on most burn rate charts. This is a common anomaly when you look at similar powders. If you research the closed bomb test procedure, you find that the burn-time is really limited to the internal space of the closed bomb. When you get to individual cartridges, things can and do change. Another good example of this is AA#5.

The powder I tend to rate True Blue closest to is V-V N340, but HS-6 is very close. WAP is Silhouette and vice versa. That can be confirmed by Ramshot. Winchester dropped WAP, Western Powder Co. (Ramshot) obtained the rights to distribute and the data that was previously worked up for Winchester is used by Ramshot.

Here's something I hope will help: although they appear close in burn rate, I believe you'll find Silhouette better suited to use in high pressure cartridges like 9mm, .38 Super, 9 X 23mm, .40 S&W and 10mm and be a bit less adaptable for lower pressure cartridges, although there is .45 ACP data. And, performance will be a bit like HS-6, in that higher velocity loads can be achieved, and it is worth considering for heavy weight loads like 230 gr. JHPs. True Blue has an extremely uniform and gradual pressure rise making it more consistent, even in lower pressure cartridges. Ramshot once provided pressure curve analysis to indicate this. I've developed +P .45 loads for both the 185 and 230 gr. Golden Sabers. Accuracy is very good.

231 is a standard bearer for .45 ACP. If you like the performance it yields, or need a little more with something that burns cleaner, ZIP may be the alternative. 231 and ZIP are rated very close in burn rate. Sometimes back-to-back, but ZIP is capable of obtaining higher velocity at similar pressure when compared to 231, and the ZIP charges will be slightly higher. I don't know the exact bulk density of 231, but for ZIP it's 780 grams per liter and I suspect that 231 isn't far from that. Decent case fill for chargeweight.;)

[Walkalong]

Walkalong, did you notice Ramshot's latest 4.2 data takes True Blue up to 7.8gr with a 230 FMJ?
That's why I started at 7.5, plus the fact that from earlier trials with other powders I know it takes a tad more with the Golden Sabers because of their design. ;)

[SlamFire1]

I have been working up some 45 ACP loads in Winchester 231 using Winchester 230grain full metal jacket bullets. I am not getting the kind of velocity I want (I would be happy with 800-825 fps), even when I am at or near the maximum range of W231.

I have loaded some with W231 5.2g with 230g FMJs, and am ony getting around 700 fps. Some of the books list that as a max load, but some go up to 5.6g.

What kind of velocities do you get with 231, and are there better choices if I want to end up at about 800 fps?


Loading manuals have changed so much over the last forty years, you have to use them as a guide. And go test your own ammunition and see how it works.

In my pistols, 5.5 grains W231 with a 230 gr GI FMJ gives me the velocities I want. I have posted data from two different M1911's, one having a 230 LRN. The velocities are close enough, and this is not the only data I have on this load, that I have high confidence that it will provide similiar performance in other pistols.


Kimber Custom Classic

230 LFN 5.5 grs W231 Mixed brass CCI300 primers
30-Dec-04 T = 60 °F

Ave Vel =797.8
Std Dev = 32.2
ES 154.2
High 858.2
Low 703.9
N = 32


230 FMJ RN (GI) 5.0 grs 231 R-P cases WLP
10-Jul-05 T = 84 °F

Ave Vel = 755.7
Std Dev =17.23
ES 64.39
High 784.8
Low 720.4
N = 22


230 FMJ (GI) 5.5 grs W231 Mixed Brass WLP
OAL 1.265" taper crimp .469

4-Sep-05 T = 92 °F

Ave Vel =782.5
Std Dev =22.64
ES 87.93
High 822.9
Low 735
N = 28


Colt Series 80 M1911

230 FMJ GI 5.5 grs W231 Mixed Military WLP
taper crimp 0.469", OAL 1.265"

9-Oct-05 T = 64 °F

Ave Vel =792.4
Std Dev =15.87
ES 70.15
High 825.5
Low 754.9
N = 24

[SlamFire1]

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[SlamFire1]

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[cottontoptexan]

I have been loading the 45 ACP for over 15 years using 5.8 grains of WW231 , seating to an over all length of 1.255 , using a Lee Factory Crimp die set at .470 at the crimp. They have chronied around 830 FPS. The feed well with no problems in 6 different 1911 type pistols. The Speer No. 11 Reloading manual lists a maximum of 6.2 grains of WW231 using the TMJ bullet. It is a stiff load which duplicates military ball i believe. It may be a little high by some but still a low pressure round by all measures. Hope this helps.

[Lloyd Smale]

aint nothing that cant be done with the acp with bullseye and unique on the bench.

[ForneyRider]

.45ACP from Hodgdon data website.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

(maximum loads)
6.8gr Longshot 908fps
6.2gr WSF 910fps
7.5gr SR 4756 960fps

I think the 950fps is pretty close to manaufacturer's specs on 230gr +P loads in .45ACP.

[BAT1]

Try some Bullseye, I was using Tite Group and Clays and have migrated back to Unique and Bullseye. It just is more accurate in my piece.

[KeithB]

i use 5.2 gr W231 with Hornady 200 GR Lead C/T for target shooting

[KeithB]

i just ordered some 230GR FMJ Winchester bullets, and will start those at 5.4gr W231 I think

[jibjab]

I already prefer it in the 357 and 9 - now the 45
By 357 do you mean sig or Rem. mag ?