[ShunZu]

Not 100% if this is the correct forum to post this in, but I was in a "lively" discussion this past weekend with some friends during a poker game and the talk was oriented toward recidivism of criminals. One guy claimed nearly all felons eventually return to jail (he's been a police officer for over 15 years). Another friend said our revolving door policies of the prisons because of over-crowding was creating all the problems. Yet another guy claimed it's the liberal courts responsible for releasing BGs well before their prison terms have been served. I listened... and got out the laptop during a potty break. Came across an interesting document I thought I'd pass on to anyone interested in facts rather than paranoia and malcontent. Honestly, the numbers weren't as high as I expected. Here's just an excerpt... and the full document is at:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm#findings

Prevalence of imprisonment in the United States
As of December 31, 2001, there were an estimated 5.6 million adults who had ever served time in State or Federal prison, including 4.3 million former prisoners and 1.3 million adults in prison.

Nearly a third of former prisoners were still under correctional supervision, including 731,000 on parole, 437,000 on probation, and 166,000 in local jails.

In 2001, an estimated 2.7% of adults in the U.S. had served time in prison, up from 1.8% in 1991 and 1.3% in 1974.

The prevalence of imprisonment in 2001 was higher for
-- black males (16.6%) and Hispanic males (7.7%) than for white males (2.6%)
-- black females (1.7%) and Hispanic females (0.7%) than white females (0.3%)

Nearly two-thirds of the 3.8 million increase in the number of adults ever incarcerated between 1974 and 2001 occurred as a result of an increase in first incarceration rates; one-third occurred as a result of an increase in the number of residents age 18 and older.
Lifetime likelihood of going to State or Federal prison

If recent incarceration rates remain unchanged, an estimated 1 of every 15 persons (6.6%) will serve time in a prison during their lifetime.

Lifetime chances of a person going to prison are higher for
-- men (11.3%) than for women (1.8%)
-- blacks (18.6%) and Hispanics (10%) than for whites (3.4%)

Based on current rates of first incarceration, an estimated 32% of black males will enter State or Federal prison during their lifetime, compared to 17% of Hispanic males and 5.9% of white males.

--clipped--
There's a lot more reading there if you're interested. And I found it quite enlightening.

[jlbraun]

Ending the drug war and declaring an armistice would go a long way towards reducing our violent crime rates.

[Soybomb]

Ending the drug war and declaring an armistice would go a long way towards reducing our violent crime rates.
Hopefully at some point as a nation we'll consider doing that and wind up being able to use the money saved on the drug war to try to prevent people from turning to crime to begin with.

[Standing Wolf]

Ending the drug war and declaring an armistice would go a long way towards reducing our violent crime rates.

Worked just fine with prohibition.

[JohnL2]

I think we should put the hard back into hard time. I am talking breaking rocks with a sledge hammer from the crack of dawn to dusk.
This should apply to all except maximum and supermax security prisoners.

[Heavy Metal Hero]

This should apply to all except maximum and supermax security prisoners.

May I ask why not these? I can think of some obvious reasons, but I am curious as to your answer.

[JohnL2]

Work should be viewed as a privilege; if the lower level people in incarceration get this in their head, then all the better their attitude when being paroled back into society.
The really violent ones don't get that. They belong in the hole where they are.

It won't work for everyone. But for most hard work is good for the mind as well as the body. Hopefully it will motivate some to stay out of trouble later on and to better their lives.

[Kenneth Lew]

I think we should put the hard back into hard time. I am talking breaking rocks with a sledge hammer from the crack of dawn to dusk.
This should apply to all except maximum and supermax security prisoners.

Hard work actually occupies the minds and bodies of prisoners. Time in prison actually goes by faster when there is a schedule one must follow. Punishment is sitting in a 6x10 cell for 23 hours a day with no television, no reading materials, no sunlight, or no fresh air. That is punishment.

[RPCVYemen]

I think we should put the hard back into hard time. I am talking breaking rocks with a sledge hammer from the crack of dawn to dusk.

A state trooper told me a long time ago that severity of punishment is not correlated with deterrence. He claimed that what was correlated with deterrence is swiftness and certainty.

That sort of makes sense.

The problem is that both swiftness and certainty are expensive. The only way that I can see to decrease the time between the execution of a crime and the punishment - in the real world, with a bill of rights, and an adversarial justice system - is to spend more money on justice (courts and lawyers both prosecutors and public defenders). The only way that I can see making the punishment more certain - in the real world, with a bill of rights, and an adversarial justice system - is to increase the funding for police.

As an extreme example, if every time a crime was committed, the police were there in 30 seconds, and the trial was two days later, and the prison term started a week later, it would cut down on crime.

All of that is hideously expensive. Nobody (or almost nobody) wants to pay those taxes. We get the justice system we pay for.

Mike

[ShunZu]

We get the justice system we pay for.

I dont' entirely disagree... but I would modify it to say; We get the justice system we voted in to office.

[MachIVshooter]

I dont' entirely disagree... but I would modify it to say; We get the justice system we voted in to office.

We have a justice system? Hmmm, I thought it was just a system.

If we realy want to deter crime from the threat of punshment, we as a society are going ot have to accept punishments that are more severe than the crime. Steal a Television? Loose you thumb. Steal a car? Loose a hand. Rape a Woman? Loose you pecker. Commit cold blooded murder? Slow dismbowelment.

Not very palletable, but effective.

Since it will never (and shouldn't) happen, we just have to accept that criminals are with us and try to avoid being victims.

[jaholder1971]

1. Eliminate parole and probation for all crimes.

2. Maximum penalties are applied in all cases, departed downward only on request of the prosecutor.

3. Prison overcrowding is a condition brought upon prisoners themselves, so why concern ourselves with it?

4. Reintroduce SHAME to society. Your friend or relative gets sent to prison they cease to being your friend or relative.

5. Allow law abiding citizens the right to stop any crime on sight with deadly force without fear of repercussion from the state.

[ilbob]

You almost have to start by deciding that only acts that actually harm others are going to be criminalized.

You need to find an effective means of punishment that does not involve jail time, as that has been shown to be ineffective. Corporal punishment is cheap and effective. In some cases, home detention and so called community service are effective. I would eliminate fines altogether and replace it with complete confiscation of all property, money, and goods owned by anyone convicted of a felony. Better supervision is needed for those criminals who are not confined.

I agree that the swiftness and sureness of punishment is more effective than increasing the punishment. Get arrested people into court in 30 days or less. No reason it cannot be done. If you have to let a bunch of lower level criminals off to do that, then do it.

3 time loser. You commit three violent felonies and you get the needle.

[doc2rn]

If jail wasn't club med with weights, cable tv, three hots, and a cot, then maybe we would see some change in these individuals. I like the Idea of the Nevada Warden. If it's good enough for our troops it's good enough for you. Built a jail for 200,000 complete with .50cals.

[ShunZu]

If jail wasn't club med with weights, cable tv, three hots, and a cot, then maybe we would see some change in these individuals.

+1