[JimRude]

Just bought a Mossberg 500 for HD, to supplement the S/A pistol we have.

I have never owned a shotgun before, and want to use a LifeJacket security device (pls, no comments about the stupidity of having a locked gun at home for HD - with 3 little kids, She Who Must Be Obeyed insists).

The LJ clamps into the chamber "rendering the gun inoperable". For this to work, the slide must be back.

Question: if I load the magazine full, with no round in the chamber, and I then pull the slide back (so that I can use the LJ clamp), can I get the LJ on or will the round that is being positioned by the slide create a problem?

I'd appreciate an answer before I go scouring the net to find a shotgun LJ - I understand the company went out of business.

Thanks in advance for answering this newbie question!

[Fred Fuller]

Jim,

If your forearm doesn't cover part of the loading port when you open the action all the way (experiment with the gun empty to see), you can use your thumb as a 'magazine cutoff' and hold the round in the magazine as the action is opened. Could be you can make it work even if the forearm does come back too far- try it and see.

If you open the action and a round is expelled from the magazine onto the lifter, you can always roll it out of the open ejection port without chambering it.

Experiment with dummy ammo... it's a bad idea to learn gun function with live ammo. And don't pinch your thumb...

lpl/nc

[mgregg85]

For your purposes I think a cable lock would be very, very much easier. If your going to leave the magazine tube loaded with the slide back, all you have to do is feed the cable through the bottom of the action and out the ejection port.

I do much the same thing as you have mentioned but I use a trigger lock instead.

[distra]

Here is how I have my 870 setup with a LJ. I have 2.5yr who knows daddy "Pow Pows at targets". :D I load the mag with 5rds and one on the butt stock. LJ attaches over the action with the bolt locked open. I case of emergency, LJ comes off, round from the butt stock inserted in the action, close the bolt, and point an click if needed. You can also do a double rack, but I prefer the extra round approach. Of course, next to the bed I have a Gun Vault with my CCW pistol in it. Another option is to wall mount the SG with a locking rack. I like the LJ which is pretty easy to get access to the firearm when needed. Not ideal by any means, but keeps the little hands out until they are old enough to know how to handle a firearm.

[dfariswheel]

These are a little more expensive, but this is what the police use in their cars.
The device locks around the barrel and magazine tube, between the forearm and the receiver.

The gun can be kept in "Cruiser Ready" condition: The chamber empty, the magazine loaded, and the action un-cocked (hammer down).

The gun cannot be operated, the action can't be opened. and the gun can't be removed by force:

http://www.santacruzgunlocks.com/index.html

[jad0110]

I have never owned a shotgun before, and want to use a LifeJacket security device (pls, no comments about the stupidity of having a locked gun at home for HD - with 3 little kids, She Who Must Be Obeyed insists).

With kids (up to a certain age), keeping guns around unlocked is a tragedy waiting to happen. As I'm sure you have found yourself, kids are often a lot smarter than we give them credit for (especially little boys figuring out how stuff works). My one year old son knows how to open a cell phone and turn it on, and I think tonight he figured out that key "2" speed dials his mommy :p. Last month, he figured out how to change TV channels with the remote. I heard a story once about a one year old boy (approx - maybe around 13 - 14 mos) that found his dad's unloaded semi automatic pistol in a nightstand (don't remember the make), stuck a loaded magazine in it, racked the slide and fired a round (luckily harming no one).

A cable lock is a good place to start. You can often get them for free at a gunshop.

I understand your concern about not having a gun ready for quick access in an emergency. To solve this problem, I pocket carry my S&W 642 38 snubbie all the time. If my doorbell rings late at night, my trusty "pocket protector" is always with me. This way, I have quick access to a firearm and it is ALWAYS under my control. If there is time, I'll grab something a little more potent from my safe.

[Robert Hairless]

I heard a story once about a one year old boy (approx - maybe around 13 - 14 mos) that found his dad's unloaded semi automatic pistol in a nightstand (don't remember the make), stuck a loaded magazine in it, racked the slide and fired a round (luckily harming no one).

Don't forget though that teenagers are an even worse problem. It's just not a good idea to own guns if there are any children between the ages of 12 and 20 at home or even in the neighborhood. Anyone who keeps in touch with the news knows that it's the age group that shoots up schools and malls. It's not even safe to keep locked guns around teenagers. They know how to cut through or break locking devices, and they're so devious that some of them they steal the combinations for gun safes too. Guns don't belong around teenagers and vice versa.

Most people can control their drinking most times, but people from about age 21 to about age 55 are in a stage of life when they get fired, have trouble on the job, or discover that their wives or girl friends are cheating, and an awful lot of them drink to excess. That's bad news if they have guns available. People who keep alcohol in any form around guns are a menace. Even a locked gun isn't going to be safe around an owner who drinks: gun owners can unlock the guns and their friends sometimes know where to find the keys. Guns and alcohol don't mix.

Just as bad for different reasons are old people from about age 55 on. Gun locks and safes aren't any protection around them because they're forgetful. They lose track of what they're doing. Somewhere around these ages many of them suffer from senile dementia or worse. They often don't see well either, so there's no telling what even an old person with some remaining faculties might hit with a gun if they think they hear an intruder. They could shoot a neighbor or even a passing car. They're especially bad around shotguns. In another section of The High Road there's discussion of a recent news story about a 71-year-old man in Indiana who took a shotgun to confront utility company workers who were cutting trees on his property. The police found that he had almost 100 handguns, 200 shotguns and rifles, and a million rounds of ammunition in his house. Scarey stuff. Old people shouldn't have guns or be allowed near them.

So even locked guns aren't really safe around people from about age 1 through well beyond the age of 71. The only absolutely safe age for gun ownership might be from birth to about 12 months old, but I'm not so sure of that either because I've never seen even one who could pass a gun safety course with an acceptable score. :)

[distra]

Hairless, Your argument sounds like something that would come out the top 4 talking head Presidental candidates (on both sides). Surely you jest and are saying this tungue-in-cheek. ;) However, you do raise a good point in that gun locks can be breached. I don't worry as much about my child getting into the firearms as I do his visiting friends. I grew up with the shotgun leaning in the corner of the closet with a box a shells sitting on the shelf. I knew better than to touch either without permission. Why? Because my parents took the time to teach me about what firearms are used for and safety around them. Just remember safety devices are not a substitute for education as the kids get older.

[jad0110]

distra,

I'd say it's tongue-in-cheek ;) .

I always like the following take on kids and firearm safety, very good read for Jim and others who have youngins:

http://www.corneredcat.com/Kids/childproofisnt.aspx

[Robert Hairless]

Hairless, Your argument sounds like something that would come out the top 4 talking head Presidental candidates (on both sides). Surely you jest and are saying this tungue-in-cheek. However, you do raise a good point in that gun locks can be breached. I don't worry as much about my child getting into the firearms as I do his visiting friends. I grew up with the shotgun leaning in the corner of the closet with a box a shells sitting on the shelf. I knew better than to touch either without permission. Why? Because my parents took the time to teach me about what firearms are used for and safety around them. Just remember safety devices are not a substitute for education as the kids get older.

It did sound that way, didn't it? Too much television news I suppose.

But you did put your finger on the serious point I tried to make. The only trustworthy safety devices are the ones inside people's heads. If there's none inside, there's nothing outside that will work when it's most needed.

A big part of good parenting, I think, is patiently hooking up all the zillions of little safety gizmos inside our kids' brains as soon as possible so that the kids learn how to protect themselve and don't need us to hover over them throughout their lifetimes. But it's such exhausting work that sometimes it does seem easier to cable the entire world than it is to help children learn to how to handle the monsters themselves. My children have been adults for many years.

Sometimes I find my mind wandering back to the times I had to explain why it's not a good idea to stick pins into an electrical socket. You explain it to one, then to another, and you do the same thing with each one over and over until it takes. I'd catch myself saying: "I'm sure I said this before. Have I lost my mind?" But my wife would say, "You did say it, but not to this one." One thing after another, time and again. And then--suddenly, as if by magic--you see the kid's brain function and he or she doesn't need telling anymore.

Your parents raised you that way:

I grew up with the shotgun leaning in the corner of the closet with a box a shells sitting on the shelf. I knew better than to touch either without permission. Why? Because my parents took the time to teach me about what firearms are used for and safety around them. Just remember safety devices are not a substitute for education as the kids get older.

Beats trigger locks, cables, or even disassembling the guns and mailing the parts to various friends. Works for cars too, and computers, household chemicals, matches, electrical outlets, gasoline, paint, insecticides, scissors and knives, and all sorts of things I can't remember anymore.

We kept eyes and ears on neighbor kids and our own at all times whenever there was visiting in our home, and the neighbors did the same in their homes. Odd thing is that even when the kids were very young we could hear them (all of them, including the neighbor kids) monitoring each other. Nice kids, good adults. Haven't worried about what they might do if I turned my back on them. Haven't worried about them in a great many years.

Now it's getting close to the time for them to worry about me, and I intend to take full advantage of it. :)

[nezumi]

Seriously, yes, kids are tricky, you're on the right track. There's a balance between security and safety (no, the two are not always the same). At minimum, locking up the gun is a good idea, and keeps you safe from legal troubles as well. Just make sure you put the key in a place that is well hidden, out of reach, but easy to get in a rush, like say... your keychain.

Mossberg has this:
http://www.mossberg.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=97

which I am going to purchase and install before I leave a loaded gun in the house. Surprisingly, Remington does not have a similar device. The advantage of this is you can leave the gun in the state you said, plus no one can just walk away with it lock and all, but it's still have the price of the police version.

[Robert Hairless]

In case the information is useful, I saw a multiple gun device that looked similar to that sold by Mossberg in your link. I think it could hold four or six long guns. Don't know if that helps you, but it might help someone else.

My guess is that a burglar with a crowbar could take it and the gun in under a minute. The one I saw might take little longer because it had two sets of mounting points.

How would it prevent discharge of a loaded shotgun? It's late and I'm probably especially dense but I don't see how that would work.