[Navy joe]

Ok, where was the military's head when they picked this thing out of the line-up? I have never had too much interest in them, but thought about buying a Brigadier model a while back. I'm glad I didn't. I finally shot one today, having somehow slithered through nine years(service aniversary in 2 days!) of the military without shooting one. The previous command I was at used M11s which are SIGs, I think the whole military needs to use that pistol.

So anyway, I went to a fam class and shot a qualifier so as to stand many boring watches as shipboard sailors are wont to do. I shot a 236/240 so I am upset since I dropped points on the last 3 shots ruining my chances at a perfect score; but I'm not griping due to lack of ability.

-Weapon size. Too big for little hands, to little for big hands. Some small folks have trouble holding it, I find that with a triggerguard that comes down the grip way too far and the bottom of the frontstrap flared out that I can only get two fingers on it while my pinky swings in the breeze.

-Safety. I have often joked about the Beretta "safety of death" since down is safe and up fire in direct contradiction to most every other pistol.(1911s and all who copied ;) ) This thing is no joke, it will kill you. It seems impossible to clear a malfunction without inadvertantly swiping the safety on. The slide mount location is impossible, even with my big hands I can't thumb it off from a firing grip. I was knocking it off with my weak thumb and then re-gripping while under time. It is not really ambi, the right side lever is stamped metal that is slipperier, more rounded, and slightly smaller than the left side. Having a separate decock lever like a SIG would be nicer I think.

-Reliability. The range guns worked great, but beyond the internet hyperbole of flying slides and such there is truth in that these things break. The military has a 4K round interval magnetic particle inspection of the locking block. The range I frequent has six rental units available, I saw all six up at one time once. I walked out when I was done shooting and one had broken, ending the hour-long streak. Factor in the reports of the mags sucking in Iraq and it looks pretty ugly.

So, are any other Berettas like the Vertec better? Anybody got 10-30K through one without choking? Why should I not continue to despise this thing?

So, I survived Firearms for dummies 101 prep. The training, standards, and other shooters are another topic for the Tactics forum I think. It certainly was exciting.

[Steve in PA]

Never heard that the 92FS was too little for big hands. I wear XL gloves and my Beretta fits me perfect. I even put a set of Hogue finger groove grips on it.

As far as the safety......again, never had a problem with it. Took a tactical pistol course (LEO) where all we did was malfunctions drills for half the day. Never once did the saftey get put on doing them. A flick of my thumb as the gun clears the holster and I'm ready. Again.....I've had my Beretta for over 10 years.......been through alot of instructor courses, fired thousand upon thousands of rounds through it......no safety problems here.

Locking block problems?? Replaced mine after 10 years....only because I was able to put my hands on a new one. I still have the old one. The only reliability problems I had was a squib load. Other than that I can say in the time I've had this pistol I have never, ever had a malfunction. When i was going through the police academy I saw glocks choke on ammo. The shooters had a terrible time. I'd pick up there rounds off the ground, put it right into my mag and fire away.

Range rental guns are famous for not being taken care of.......and frequently go out of service.......no matter who makes them.

10k-30k???? I'd say mine is probably in the middle there somewhere

[Drifting Fate]

Why the Beretta?

The inside word was that we wanted to put nukes in Italy (never found out if it was nukes, or more nukes) and part of the agreement was to go with the Beretta as part of the trade imbalance. Luckily the Beretta works better than most Fiats.

I know it sounds outlandish and "urban legend," but this was from a former Cooper/Gunsite employee who had run into the Army types who knew.

Take it with a pound of salt, but that's the story.

[firestar]

No gun is going to be perfect for everyone and any gun that replaces a beloved old timer like the 1911 is going to be hated by the people that liked and were used to the controls of the old design.

Do I think the Beretta 92fs is a better gun than the 1911? Yes. Would I rather have a 92fs/M9 over a 1911 in a gun fight? Yes. Are 15 rounds better than 7? Yes. Am I going to turn this into a 1911/45acp vs. Beretta M9/9mm battle? I hope not. I am just voicing my opinion to show that not everyone thinks like you.

I have medium sized hands but I like a small grip and pistol if possible, the Beretta 92fs fits me O.K. There are other guns of similar size that don't fit me. The SIG 220, CZ-75, CZ-85, CZ-40, CZ-97 all have triggers that I can't reach with my trigger finger. Every Glock has a grip that is way to fat and square for me to even think about holding on to. Glocks feel like they are going to slip out of my hand. Rugers are solid guns but they are outclassed by Beretta in every way (trigger, accuracy, smoothness quality etc.). I don't have much experience with H&K and they weren't around when the military was doing the testing so it is a moot point. S&W sucks.

A SIG may be a better gun but even if the military picked a SIG, there would be rumors and lies about how SIG cheated or bribed someone etc.

My friend was a Marine armorer during and after the switch to the M9 and I asked him straight out if the M9 had any of the problems that I have heard rumors about (slide breaking, etc.) or if the Beretta had to be repaired more often than the 1911. He told me that he never saw a broken slide on a Beretta or a 1911 but just about every other part broke on BOTH these guns and the Beretta had no more or fewer problems than any other gun that he had to service.

I think the Beretta is a fine choce as a military handgun and it would be the one I would choose if I had to go to war. My 92fs has never jammed with well over 1500 rounds of various ammo.

I can't reach the slide release on the 92fs but I can't reach it on most guns. I agree with the safety thing, I have inadvertantly engaged the safety while racking the slide. I wish they would make a Beretta with a smaller grip and frame mounted de-cock only lever. The Vertec feels good but it needs a de-cock to be perfect.

[10-Ring]

I've seen alot of broken guns...S&W's, Glocks, Berettas, HK's, SIGs...Nothing is immune from breakage especially if it sees alot of use. I've been totally happy w/ my Berettas and wouldn't hesitate in getting another one.

[Wil Terry]

They are extremely functional, shoot fairly well, and look sorta cool in a teutonic sort of way.
With that noted when it came time for Y E S T to buy one of these I opted for a Taurus 92 with it's 1911 style safety, that now is just under 10,000 rounds without a single malfunction of any kind, shoots like a million bucks with screaming 115gr JHP handloads, and is nothing short of being a delightful 9MM PARABELLUM pistol.
Here is the kicker: Do you know why I picked the Taurus other than its' safety? It was because Beretta was selling the 92 to Uncle Sam for 179 bucks including 5 magazines and extra parts. If I wanted one it was well over 400 bucks back then and that just pissed me off to no end, guys; eff 'em!!!! They're still selling 'em to the gumit for 179 bucks; double eff 'em!!!

[Sean Smith]

92FS/M9 Why???

Beats me. 3 out of 4 M9's I was issued were unreliable, on the pistol range, cleaned and lubed properly, with NATO FMJ ammo. Funny thing is, first one I was issued worked great. Shot expert with it on the first try (and it was the first handgun I'd EVER shot). The rest were dogs.

I doubt that's representative. Even the Army would notice a weapon that consistently faulty eventually. On the other hand, I was alot more concientous about proper cleaning and so forth than your typical Joe would be. Being in the Third World with a known unreliable weapon just sucked. Luckily, I was just an MI officer staff puke, so I was pretty expendable. :D

My personal opinion, for what it's worth (hint: you are getting it for free: :p ) is that the SigSauer P226 should have been the M9, not the Beretta 92.

[Island Beretta]

NavyJoe: You are obviously trying to build a story, Are you sure you are talking about the Beretta because you have just spouted a whole pile of :eek:

E.g. your hands are sooo big that only two fingers can hold on the grip yet you cannot reach the safety :confused:

[Boats]

What is funny to think about is that had the SIG P226/228 become the M9 and the Beretta 92FS, winner of one previous trial, and tied or outperforming the SIG in the XM9 trial never been adopted, it would be the now horribly worn out and still prone to breakage in different ways SIG pistols that would be the dogs and the Beretta the one everyone would say should have been adopted.

I think the perceived failures of the M9, ones that are not the experience in other large agencies using the B92/96, some of whom, like the Border Patrol, have used them in environments that can be every bit as hostile as those found in the Middle East, say more about how the pistols are cared for in the Army than about any inherent shortcomings in the design, which is widely and justifiably regarded as nearly flawless in terms of function in the civilian world.

[clange]

I've never had a problem with the safety either, although i wasnt 'corrupted' by shooting a 1911 first, which apparently makes you think anything different is the devil. ;)

I mean, you pick up a beretta and you're confused about the safety? Doesnt take too much thought to cover: beretta-flip forward, 1911-flip down. :confused:

[Navy joe]

Ok, I am not "confused" by the safety. I just cannot operate it from a firing grip. My thumbs aren't hinged that way.

E.g. your hands are sooo big that only two fingers can hold on the grip yet you cannot reach the safety

Repeat, my thumbs don't work like that. I can put my left thumb on the right side safety, but due to what I said about it being slippery I cannot reliably operate it. I can cross my left thumb over the back of the gun and use the left side safety, go figure.

Nowthen:
NavyJoe: You are obviously trying to build a story, Are you sure you are talking about the Beretta because you have just spouted a whole pile of

I believe I explained your "example", but I'll go further. The base of the frontstrap is flared and the bottom of the triggerguard comes down too low placing the weapon high in your hands. If it were my pistol I would cut the flare off and griptape the frontstrap. I'd probably also look at undercutting or just plain cutting and moving the triggerguard. This grip contributes to the gun being more lively under recoil than a 9mm should be as compared to my BHPS or Glocks.

As to the general tone of your comment maybe we should go shooting sometime, perhaps you won't be so mouthy in person. I will expound some more on my "story".

First, I wrote this as a reasonably experienced pistol shooter who has operated a fair number of weapon types, somehow this one eluded me. I tried to look at the operation as a novice would, but formed opinions based on my experience. FWIW, I'd say about 1 in 5 persons on the line qualified their first try. Many did not on the re-try. Some of that is them, some the gun, some the way the Navy specifies it is to be operated. For the novice the two big issues are simplicity and the DA/SA trigger.

The gun is to fault mainly for weapons fit, there were plenty of small hands present. The Navy is to fault because they want the gun carried hammer down safety on. That will kill you. The point of a DA should be point and shoot, not lesse how many steps we can take to fire. The shooters? Well, I'm confused that so many are in the military and have not bothered to obtain even cursory firearms knowledge.

Safety: Steve, what kind of grip do you use when clearing malfs? I have trained to an overhand rack for everything, I could probably get good staying away from the safety with enough practice. Can a novice under stress do the same? I still think the safety is counter-intuitive, maybe I'll get a Taurus with the frame safety. Do any Beretta models have the frame safety?

Reliability: I'm aware that all guns break, unlike some internet BS artists I shoot enought to break them all, some minor, some major from Glock, 1911, BHP and other reliability champs. The only extensively shot gun that never left me hanging was my old Colt AR-15, you know the unreliable plastic toys. I figure that range guns are a good comparison to military use becasue they both get abused. In that same range there are some guns that get the same treatment as the 92s but keep on happily going. They are an old GM 1911, many Glocks, and S&W .38 revolvers that look older than I am. Why do the Berettas stop more than these guns? I will say that they are not the most rented, the Glocks easily take that honor.
Locking block failure is a fact. The military would not specify that inspection were it not. Early slide cracking is a fact, that is why later models and the Brigadier are beefed up in the area where the block lugs engage.

Boats, I agree that we'd all be griping about the SIG now if it had been picked, but hey, it's the internet, we're sailors, why not gripe? I think that getting a more user friendly gun would still make sense. Better yet would be the military buying new ones whatever the type every 50k rounds. Even better yet would be contract maintenance/trainers to ensure that proper PM was done on the guns.

So anyway, I repeat that these are my observations upon being new to the gun. I am a little confused about the tribalists getting upset because I don't like their blaster. Like it or not I can bet that if they are inexperienced enough to get wrapped around the axle about their favorite gun, they are also inexperienced enough for me to outshoot them with their own gun. Bet on it.

Has anyone else got a lot of rounds through theirs? What model? Notice that I would still consider buying one. I ask because it is going to get shot. A lot. I have owned my Glocks(Notice how I didn't say GlOcKs RuL! and Berettas suk!?) for 8 months and have put in excess of 15k rounds downrange. I want something else that can take similar abuse.

clange- But Glocks are the Devil right?



:evil:

[papaone]

You are very articulate. I mean that. If you ever write a book, I promise I will buy it.
:D :D Regards
papaone

[Navy joe]

P1 If I'm articulate you got a lot to learn ;) Welcome to THR.

[clange]

clange- But Glocks are the Devil right?
LOL i'll let you know when i shoot one, but i got no problems with a DAO polymer thingamajig (got a P32). ;)

If i'm understanding your thumb description ;) I take it you're left handed? I tried with my left hand a couple times today and didnt have any problems. Maybe the safety is a bit tight? Mine doesnt take much pressure at all. :confused: Might just fit my hands better though (most likely).

I believe the trigger guard was made large to allow the use of gloves? As for the safety/decock thing, i agree with you. I have grown to dislike it. I'm planning to get whatever part is needed to disable the decock. Condition 1 here i come.

[dsk]

Believe it or not, I think the military would have been better off had it waited a couple of years and been able to test the Ruger P-85. Low cost, reliable, and very durable. They just don't have much of a pedigree so they don't seem to be all that popular these days.

As it were, the P-85 was indeed tested a few years after the original M9 trials, during the XM-10 competition in 1988. Word is both Ruger and Smith and Wesson were dumped, and the Beretta re-adopted without a proper explanation as to why the first two were considered inferior.

My main beef with the M9 is its size. Good grief, one of the biggest complaints about the 1911 was that it was too big and heavy!

[CWL]

The way I heard it, it was to keep Italy within NATO (remember the 80's were bad Cold War times). Also to do with airfields and sub bases.

Folks, I know we love our pistolas, but the reality of modern warfare is that pistols account for such a infintessimal amount of casualties that the choice was obvious in order to keep Italy within the alliance. Italian pistols to keep American F-16s flying in the Med. -a no-brainer.

[firestar]

So your saying that as long as we buy several thousand pistols for $179 (apparently), Italy will do whatever we want? That makes Italy sound like a pretty cheap date if you ask me. :D We were going to give Turkey 60 million just to use their roads during the last Iraq war. Sounds like the Turkish must be more shrewd than the Italians.:D

Is there any proof of the whole Nato/Italy/bribe/M-9 thing or is it just rumors? I have read a lot about it but I have never seen anything that looks like proof. People will believe the strangest things.:rolleyes:

I have never met a person that liked Berettas who also believes the U.S. was just trying to bribe the Italians. Only people that dislike Berettas for whatever reason are guilty of spouting this nonsense. There are so many rumors floating around about guns that it makes you wonder what is really going on.

Do Glocks really blow up in your hand more than other guns? Do 1911s really jam on every other round? Do Berettas slides fly off and stick in people's forheads? See what I mean? I think the big boys are always going to have to fight stupid rumors because they are easy targets. I know I would take any of the above guns over a Kel-Tec or a Taurus if I had to defend myself and I think most informed people would agree. Glocks, Berettas, and Colt 1911s may have some faults but they are among the very best handguns ever made.

[Island Beretta]

NavyJoe:

I still maintain what I said earlier- Call me tribalist or anything, you are trying to build a story!! There were other things you said such as the slide-mounted safety well S&W, Desert Eagles etc. etc. uses the same setup!! For your information also the Beretta has a G model that simply decocks and return to fire, it also has the slick slide DAO that uses none of the gadgets that you seem to dislike...

Locking block failure is a fact, agreed, but hasn't that been resolved?? If so why bring it up???

I have a Beretta right here in my hands as I am writing this, so you need not give a description. You are the one mouthing off and if you are as experienced as you say then avoid the stories..if you do not like the gun that's your issue, mate, and you are entitled to that.. :cool:

[Jaywalker]

I followed the 1911 replacement trials pretty closely at the time, and the Beretta was a clear winner of reliability issues, IIRC. We can discuss why that was (stacked deck, etc.), but not that it happened. The control item in the test was the current sidearm, the 1911, which had something like 450 Mean Rounds Between Failures. Other sidearms had something like 50 MRBF up to 600 MRBF, while the Beretta cruised with 2000 MRBF! Again, we can quibble about whether the deck was stacked, but the Beretta was a clear winner at the time of the sidearms tested.

FWIW, the prototype Colt DA and the new Ruger were also in the test, and if they completed the test at all (things kept falling off), they were way, way down at the bottom.

I'm aware that politics rules, and that some choices are made on that basis. The Belgian machinegun in the 70's comes to mind to ensure the F-16 became the NATO fighter instead of the Mirage F-1, but I have to say the competition for 1911 replacement looked pretty clean - they picked the best pistol from the tests at the time. I agree that other pistols might have fared better had they been in the tests, but that's what makes a horserace - they have to be in the starting gate to win.

Jaywalker

[Island Beretta]

...and to further elaborate on Jaywallker's point the 92fs did go on to win other trials worldwide, beating the Sig 226 on a number of occasions..

It would appear that this company pays out more money in bribes so as to win contracts than it probably makes in profits:rolleyes:

You know I wonder if the 92 was a .45 caliber weapon how it would have been viewed:eek:

[George Hill]

Island Beretta, Navy Joe... Shake hands. Just a friendly reminder to make sure you remain civil.

/theRef.

[dsk]

FWIW, the prototype Colt DA and the new Ruger were also in the test, and if they completed the test at all (things kept falling off), they were way, way down at the bottom.

The Ruger was not in the JSSAP tests. It wasn't released to market until a couple of years later. And no, the military didn't have any pre-production samples to test either.