Shoot the neighbors pitt bull?


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wbh
December 14, 2007, 05:27 PM
My neighbor has a pitt bull...a mean nasty pitt bull. In most instances I don't see these "vicious" dogs as much of a threat as long as I don't go into their yard looking for trouble, which I don't :D

This particular pitt, however, has killed in the past...unprovoked. My other neighbor (on the other side of me, yes I'm sandwiched in between these guys) had owned some rabbits. The rabbits were kept outside in cages. The cages were the pretty standard small animal/rodent cages. One day while running loose, the pitt bull managed to get one cage open and killed one of their rabbits. Why the dog wasn't put down then, I don't know, and it's not really any of my business, it's between them and I try to stay out of it.

This is where it becomes my business. The pitt bull routinely trys to attack me, my wife, and my dog, while we are on our own property. My dog is about 1/4 the size of the pitt. He's a cross between a cocker spaniel and a cavalier king charles. He wouldn't stand a chance against that pitt bull. The pitt bull is typically on one of those leashes that anchors into the ground, but can get within inches of our property. Whenever the pitt bull is outside and I have to let my dog out, I bring my S&W M&P.40 with me for fear of the pitt getting loose and attacking. So, here's the real meat of my question: When is it okay to shoot? Indiana state law allows me to shoot in defense of life or property. So, if the pitt gets loose and is charging me, my wife, my dog, etc would it be a clean shoot? Or should I wait until there is actual physical contact? Being as the dog has killed before I am inclined to shoot prior to it locking it's jaws around my dog, or me or my wife as the case may be. I understand that varying states have varying laws, but was wondering if anyone has any insight or advice as it relates to Indiana.

Thanks in advance

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trueblue1776
December 14, 2007, 05:31 PM
If it comes down to it and you have to shoot it, then shoot it. But it would be wise to get the police involved before hand so you'll have the law on your side if you must shoot.

Call the police today.

ArmedBear
December 14, 2007, 05:31 PM
Terriers killing rabbits? What a shocker!

(Here's a clue: most dogs will kill rabbits if they're so inclined. This has no bearing whatsoever on whether said dog is a threat to humans or other dogs, any more than a cat killing mice would mean that the cat poses a threat to children.)

Have you considered having a talk with the neighbor? Some dogs show "leash aggression" -- yeah, even cavalier king charles spaniels sometimes -- but act completely different when loose. Some dogs really are a threat. Some people are, too. But it pays to find out by introducing yourself to both. (If this dog is guarding a meth lab or something, so you don't want to meet the neighbors, why the hell are you living there?)

Also, dogs like food. Tossing the thing some meat every few days will go farther than carrying a .40, usually. There are advantages to having a dog like that around, if it is friendly to you. Less property crime for you to worry about, for one thing.

But of course it would be a "clean shoot" if a dog is actually attacking you on your property. There's just nothing in your story that would tell me that it would, or that it wouldn't.

Mainsail
December 14, 2007, 05:34 PM
If you feel your life is in danger, shoot. In the meantime, get one of those marine aerosol air horns and when the dog is snarling at you from just over the fence, walk up as close as you can get and blow that in his face. At close range, that much noise is disorienting, and it's worse if you have dog hearing.

wbh
December 14, 2007, 05:37 PM
that's part of the problem...no fence.

cat_IT_guy
December 14, 2007, 05:39 PM
I too would be concerned. Id have to agree with the above recommendation to get the police involved now so that they are at least aware of the situation if anything ever comes of it.

However, if it comes down to it, shoot first, then explain - ESPECIALLY when human life is involved. I think anyone who knows anything about how nasty pit bulls can be would have a very difficult time opposing your position - especially if you wait until the dog is on your property.

Also if I were you, I'd be seriously contemplating a 12ga to stop the dog - unless you are confident you can hit a dog running at 25+/- mph with a handgun when someone's life is on the line. I think some 00 buck would be just the ticket. Just my .02

Eric F
December 14, 2007, 05:40 PM
Go ahead and shoot first there Michael Vick.......ur uh wbh

Ok now for the serious responce Having been a US MAIL carrier for a short time I find that oc spray will work far faster than a gun IMO But that is just one option. I would try calling animal control every time I saw this dog out any where.
When it comes to shooting the animal there is 2 schools of thought here
1. Shoot first do not wait if it is you, there might not be time to draw and/or shoot before the beast hits a major blood vessel. In other words on a lucky hit you might be dead before you can shoot.
2. My personal favorite, Let the dog bite you or who ever then kill it. Now you can get the satisfaction of sueing the owner ang getting well deserved monitary award.
Keep in mind though the dog will never bite my wife or kid it will be dead far sooner but the wifes cat well I might miss once or twice first!

Cougfan2
December 14, 2007, 05:41 PM
+1 on getting the police involved first. That way you've established that there is a problem and they have a record of it. If you see the Pit chained outside, that would be a really good time to have an officer drop by. Chances are the Pit will be foaming at the officer too and he can see the problem. Document, document, document!

As far as waiting for the dog to actually attack you before shooting, that makes about as much sense as seeing someone pointing a gun at you and waiting for them to shoot you before you shoot back. NOT THE KID!!!

glockman19
December 14, 2007, 05:46 PM
that's part of the problem...no fence.
What do they say?

"Good Fences make Good Neighbors"

Install a fence. If the doge EVER breaches the fence, shoot it.

ArmedBear
December 14, 2007, 05:46 PM
But really, doesn't anyone else here think that having a chat with your neighbors before shooting their dog or calling the cops might be worthwhile?

Or are we now just a society that sees our neighbors as enemies by default?

Walkalong
December 14, 2007, 05:47 PM
I would consider a Pit "viscious" if he was aggressive towards people and would shoot it for you.

The fact that it killed a rabbit is no shock at all. He should be contained in his yard, and if not the ownwer should be held responsible.

If he is really viscious and really wants to get to you and yours, call Animal Control. If the dog is truly viscious they will have it put down.

Mine is a big sissy and would not hurt a human being, but I would not be shocked if he would jump a rabbit.

While Pits by nature are great with people, a mean one is extremely dangerous and needs to be put down.

Lets just not go the route of antis with guns and blame all Pits for the behaviour of a few.

I have been around hundreds of Pits and they are people loving by nature. When people make one mean it is bad news. :banghead:

Remember one thing. The Liberal media hates and lies abouts Pits the same way the do about guns.


The pitt bull routinely trys to attack me, my wife,
If indeed this was the case I would have eliminated the problem by now and would not be asking about it. ;)

wbh
December 14, 2007, 05:48 PM
had a convo with the neighbors already...their only solution was shortening the leash so the dog could no longer step onto our property

ArmedBear
December 14, 2007, 05:51 PM
Did they shed any light on the dog's temperament?

Did they introduce you to the dog? Or is the dog just plain human-aggressive?

(BTW the APBT breed standard dq's a dog for human aggression. Pit bulls are not intended to be human aggressive, and if this dog is, it's probably a derivative dog that is bred and/or beaten so as to be human aggressive. That would be a bad sign, as this could also be an unstable and unpredictable dog. However, as I said, a terrier killing a rabbit is no indicator of danger to you.)

Black Knight
December 14, 2007, 05:52 PM
If you can afford it put up a fence if your zoning laws allow it. As far as when to shoot, if you wait til there is contact you are too late. Remember scares dont go away easily and a child with scars will have a rough time in school. Other kids won't care what caused the scars they will just poke "fun" at the child with scars. You should defend your loved ones when you feel you, a family member or your dog is in danger.

Walkalong
December 14, 2007, 05:52 PM
had a convo with the neighbors already...their only solution was shortening the leash so the dog could no longer step onto our property

You won't have any luck with them. Call Animal Control. One thing to remember though. If you call them and they don't do anything, then they know you want to get rid of it and it will look funny if it "disapears" or "drops dead" suddenly.

Pigspitter
December 14, 2007, 05:52 PM
if it has tried to attack you before I would wait until you neighboor isn't home and the dog is loose and shoot it then drag it on your property. The cops won't be able to tell if you clean up the blood trail

Ragnar Danneskjold
December 14, 2007, 05:53 PM
I would start calling the authorities every single time the dog makes an agressive move. A: maybe they will actually do something and take the dog away. And B: if you do end up having to shoot the dog, your past complaints will show a pattern of dangerous behavior on the dog's part as well as show you were avoiding taking action yourself until you needed to.

ArmedBear
December 14, 2007, 05:53 PM
As far as when to shoot, if you wait til there is contact you are too late.

That's true. But just shooting a neighbor's dog while tied up will probably land you in a world of trouble, both official and unofficial.

Hence, my thoughts about intermediate solutions.

(And I'd still consider throwing it some kitchen scraps. That can work rather well. Just make sure that, when you do it, your whole family is around. Positive association.)

JeremySmith
December 14, 2007, 05:58 PM
I'm pretty sure that here in Indiana, you can only shoot to protect yourself, your family, or livestock - I'll look around more tonight. You've already done the first thing I'd do - talking to the neighbor. If you can't put up a fence, start taking treats out to the thing - unless it's totally beyond hope, it'll be your buddy in no time. I'd still make sure to keep that pistol handy, just to be safe.

wbh
December 14, 2007, 05:59 PM
they did not offer up much in the way of the dogs temperment. They actually don't offer much insight into any aspect of their lives in conversation. They seem to like to be "mysterious". It appears that the dog is their "home security system" as that it is aggresive with anyone outside of that household, and they have "Beware of Dog" signs posted outside. While the sign is no indication of the dogs temper, nor is the fact that it killed a rabbit, necassarily. It's demeanor around people is a huge clue as to it's temper and probable use as a "security system"

ArmedBear
December 14, 2007, 06:00 PM
If you can't put up a fence, start taking treats out to the thing - unless it's totally beyond hope, it'll be your buddy in no time. I'd still make sure to keep that pistol handy, just to be safe.

Agreed on both counts.

ilbob
December 14, 2007, 06:00 PM
i vote for a fence.

virtually any dog will go after small animals like rabbits. its just part of being a dog.

no dog should ever be put outside on a leash without direct human supervision. it almost guarantees a screwed up dog.

pit bulls are not a lot different than most dogs are. the problem with them is if they go off the deep end, the results can be fatal. with most dogs, its unlikely to be fatal when the dog has a meltdown.

in some cases you can try to socialize the dog with your neighbor's help. the dog needs both human and dog socialization. any dog that cannot be trusted around other dogs cannot be trusted around human beings either. in reality, no dog can be trusted without human supervision. leaving the dog on a leash in an unfenced yard is not proper supervision.

Zundfolge
December 14, 2007, 06:02 PM
Most of the pitts I've known over the years were absolute sweethearts ... the only aggressive pitts I've met had aggressive owners.


As for those shrugging off the dog attacking and killing the other neighbor's rabbit ... I would expect any dog to chase (and kill if possible) a rabbit running around on the ground, but tearing into a cage and killing the rabbit its a bit more concerning.

My big concern as far as the law goes is are you allowed to discharge a firearm in town to defend the life of your dog. Its a no brainer that if the dog charged you or a human family member that you'd be well within your rights to ventilate it on the spot, but I'd ask the local police if you're allowed to shoot to defend your dog.

Also, I used to live next door to a schizophrenic that ranted and raved at all hours of the night. I called the police non-emergency number and asked to speak to the officer in charge of our beat and he came by and I explained the situation with my neighbor because if something bad DID happen I wanted there to be a paper trail (incidentally they had a bunch of calls about this guy besides me and many of them were about an unknown person walking around shouting obscenities ... so I was able to connect a few dots for the local police). Building a rapport with the police that patrol your neighborhood is a good way to make sure that they officers that respond to a shooting call know who you are and know you're the "good guy".

RoadkingLarry
December 14, 2007, 06:04 PM
Several years ago my daughter was raising rabbits fro FFA and had some high value bunnies (I never quite "got it" but it was her thing). neighbor aqcuried a wolf/shepard hybrid and allowed it to run loose in our rural area.
Dog killed several rabbits and we talked with neighbor about it. They of course were surprised and shoceked that their dog would do that but offered to pay for the damage.
Several day later I'm at work, daughter comes in bawling, dog is eating rabbits. Wife seriuosly POd takes Marlin Mdl 60 and sends dog to happy hunting ground with one shot. Dog left half in destroyed cage with dead rabbit in mouth, everybody go to school and or work.
Later that day wife and I getting rready to go to awards banquet for her work. She is dress to the Nines almost semi formal, I actually have a sport coat and tie on(ack gag).
I Hear voices in back yard, open door see 2 deputy sherrifs looking at dead dog. Seems neighbor called the law about dead dog. I express my displeasure at their presence in my yard with out my permission then proceede to shoot the breeze with senior deputy that I have a good relationship with.
Yup, not much question about what happened, and do I want to press charges? T
hen they ask me what I shot the dog with and from where. I said I didn't, wife did with .22 rifle from "there" and point to wife standing on the back porch 50 yards away. Game Over, but I still had to get rid of the carcas.

Maybe not relevant but rabbits are livestock and if you are rural you can kill animals killing livestock. but otherwise get a fence. If dog then comes in your yard. SSS.

Cougfan2
December 14, 2007, 06:07 PM
Actually putting up the "Beware of Dog Sign" did you a big favor! Take a picture of it and of the dog foaming at the mouth at you and keep it on file. That way if you have to shoot the dog and they try to haul you into court you can say "but your honor, they acknowledged that they have a vicious dog, just look at the pictures". :D

ArmedBear
December 14, 2007, 06:07 PM
As for those shrugging off the dog attacking and killing the other neighbor's rabbit ... I would expect any dog to chase (and kill if possible) a rabbit running around on the ground, but tearing into a cage and killing the rabbit its a bit more concerning.


Dogs may show: human aggression, dog aggression, prey drive.

These three things are separate. You can have a dog that is extremely friendly to humans but will attack any dog it sees. Some dogs are interested in certain kinds of prey. A bird dog might go nuts over birds, whereas a terrier will hardly notice them but chase down any running prey.

It's not "shrugging off" anything; it's just recognizing that, in dogs, one form of aggression can be separate from another.

Understanding this will also keep you from being lulled into thinking a dog is friendly to you, if it doesn't attack your dog, for example.

SIRVEYR666
December 14, 2007, 06:08 PM
I would wait until you neighboor isn't home and the dog is loose and shoot it then drag it on your property. The cops won't be able to tell if you clean up the blood trail

Are you F-ing kidding me?!:cuss:

I'm not a bid fan of internet attacks, but I will make an exception: With all due respect, you are a complete moron.:barf:

Eric F
December 14, 2007, 06:10 PM
Go to the Michael Vick school of Pit Bull disposal(ok I can only make these comments as his activities where only 15 miles up the road from me)

The law is on your side in recent years Pit Bulls have become a scourage......call animal control they will eventualy do something shoot only if you absolutly can not escape. If you shoot with out probable cause you most likely will go to jail for animal cruleity

TallPine
December 14, 2007, 06:19 PM
Even our Golden Retriever will kill wild rabbits the rare times he can catch them.

Back when we still lived in town, we set up two 6' high chain link dog kennels around our rabbit hutches to protect them from stray dogs (illegal, but of course the law never catches them). We moved the same set-up out here where it is an absolute necessity to protect them from coyotes and other predators.

I have no compunction about shooting a dog that is harrassing or destroying my own pets or livestock, but living in town you really should consider other options first. Build your own fence to keep dogs out even if the neighbors won't fence their dog in. Probably a lot cheaper than a criminal defense and/or civil suit ;). Even if it was a "good shoot" otherwise there is always a chance of a bullet rick o'shaying somewhere it shouldn't be :uhoh:

98C5
December 14, 2007, 06:19 PM
1. As others have said, call Police and file that report.
2. Contact neighbor again and explain that his dog is becoming a threat to you and your family.
3. Installing a fence is fine, but why should you have to shell out the cash for his problem? But if your willing to do that, do that.
4. Contact the neighbors and get a consensus of the dog being a nuisance.
5. Get an air horn or pepper spray.


If all else fails, and the dog once again charges you or your family, put it down. I love animals, but the is no sense in having a dangerous dog roaming the area. If someone really did get bit or mauled, I would feel bad.

Again, try the first 5, then make that decision.

98

Bazooka Joe71
December 14, 2007, 06:34 PM
I like the take him treats idea...

If that works, you don't piss off the neighbors and eveveryone is happy...Heck you might even make a new friend(the Pitt).

But if that doesn't work after little awhile, you have no choice but to file a complaint with the popo.

Archer1945
December 14, 2007, 06:39 PM
they did not offer up much in the way of the dogs temperment. They actually don't offer much insight into any aspect of their lives in conversation. They seem to like to be "mysterious". It appears that the dog is their "home security system" as that it is aggresive with anyone outside of that household, and they have "Beware of Dog" signs posted outside. While the sign is no indication of the dogs temper, nor is the fact that it killed a rabbit, necassarily. It's demeanor around people is a huge clue as to it's temper and probable use as a "security system"

This makes me more than just a little curious. I know there was one comment, somewhat jokingly, about a meth lab, but after this I kind of wonder. From what I've seen over the years most people who have highly aggresive dogs as "security systems" or watchdogs usually are trying to hide something they really don't want any one to know about.

I also am inclined to say a good six foot chain link or security fence would not be a bad idea at all. A fence would also be good if you do have to shoot the dog because then you can definitely show it was on your property. That said you should certainly get the police involved before things reach the shooting point.

cassandrasdaddy
December 14, 2007, 06:40 PM
as a non lethal alternative consider stinger rounds plastic buck shot and i suspect that a muzzle contact or near muzzle contact shot might do some real damage. its safer if you miss or if you need to shoot it while its on your dog. 33o feet of field fence is about 125 bucks.

ArmedBear
December 14, 2007, 06:44 PM
I was only sort of kidding about the meth lab thing.

Archer has it right.

I hope you have a good reason for living there.

ArmedBear
December 14, 2007, 06:48 PM
as a non lethal alternative consider stinger rounds plastic buck shot and i suspect that a muzzle contact or near muzzle contact shot might do some real damage. its safer if you miss or if you need to shoot it while its on your dog.

This is a TERRIBLE idea.

If this dog is really what the OP fears, pain will not deter it.

Dogs are not people and they don't act like it. Ever train a dog to heel? The jerk you have to give their collars sometimes, just to get their attention, could kill a human. And that's not a bulldog, either.

If you actually do NEED to shoot it, you will need to disable it with that shot.

There are lots of reasons to try other alternatives, like throwing it some treats. That and most pit bulls would just as soon be your friends, if they get some indication that you're friendly. Not all, but most. Chances are the vibe you've sent this dog is one of fear/aggression, so he has no reason to believe you're anything but a threat.

TallPine
December 14, 2007, 06:58 PM
Installing a fence is fine, but why should you have to shell out the cash for his problem?

Well, it adds somewhat to your property value, and gives you a place to turn out your own dog safely. But I would do some sort of privacy fence rather than chain link.

Javelin
December 14, 2007, 07:01 PM
If you feel your life is in danger, shoot.

Well put. If you are not in danger then you better leave it to the authorities (like give them a call and state your case).

:)

wuchak
December 14, 2007, 07:15 PM
Once you have a police report where they witness the aggressive behavior of the dog while tied in the yard then find an attorney and sue your neighbor for depriving you of your right to enjoy your property without being under constant threat of deadly force. It should be rather easy to make the case that you cannot relax in your yard with a snarling pitbull 10 feet away.

Avenger
December 14, 2007, 07:24 PM
I'm wondering how much socializing the dog gets from the owners. So many people buy a dog, chain it up in the back yard, and toss the food out nightly. Dogs are SOCIAL animals, pack animals. They get lonely without their pack around, and they react by turning aggressive and depressive. It's really common for larger breeds to be aggressive just because they are scared of people from the lack of socialization.

I'd try the treats first. Approach the dog slowly, wait for it to calm down, then let it WATCH you place the treat within it's reach. Don't start off with hand-feeding. I'll take odds that the dog will be your friend within a week.

Justin
December 14, 2007, 07:25 PM
Great. Another dog-shooting thread.

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