[Nolo]

I was looking at Saiga 12 shotties, thinking how cool they are, when I started thinking about how bad that recoil must get after a couple of magazines. Then I thought about that load they made for the .410 bore with three 000 buckshot balls.
So I had an idea. What if you took an (semi) automatic shotgun platform, say the Saiga, and chambered it for something like .410 to 28 gauge and loaded it with a few 000 buckshot balls? The ability to really quickly continue your shots would make you able to really saturate the target, with three to five balls coming out the end of your gun with every pull of the trigger.
What do you think?

[revjen45]

Have you refilled your lithium prescription?

[hankdatank1362]

I'd cast my vote for 9 .33 caliber pellets coming out with every pull of the trigger... i.e. a saiga-12.

Thr tromix .410 conversion would be a nice toy for squirrels, though.

[AZ Husker]

The .410 buckshot loads have terrible terminal effects.

[Nolo]

Really? Why?
If you shoved them at the same speed as a 12 gauge, wouldn't it be similar?
I was worried about the recoil from the Saiga. Is it bad? I've heard it is.

[Javelin]

Have you refilled your lithium prescription?


Ok that was not very high road.. But yeah I was kind of thinking something similiar on those lines. Just not that hellarious.

A fully auto Tromix built saiga 12 does not seem to climb too bad from what the fellas shooting them on utube. I would just skip the .410 and go with a 12 gauge.

:)

[AZ Husker]

.410's don't shove them out at the same speed as a 12 gauge. Plus, when you consider the fact that the .410 has three balls compared to nine out of a 12 gauge with tons more power, there is no question.

[Roswell 1847]

the fact that the .410 has three balls compared to nine out of a 12 gauge with tons more power,
Theres a five ball load for the longest .410 magnums. You seldom hear about it since most .410 pistols and magazine fed shotguns aren't chambered for the longer magnum shells. More recoil than the users of .410 pistols would want but if used in a semi auto would increase hit probability.

PS
I'd figure that custom brass case loads could be made up using the cases they manufacture for the Sharps .45 long range cartridges.

[bogie]

What's a Saiga cost? Can I chop it to 18.5" without affecting function?

[Larry Ashcraft]

.410's don't shove them out at the same speed as a 12 gauge.
If you're talking about number of balls per second, you're right. If you're talking about velocity, you're wrong.

That said, I'm moving this to shotguns.

[Nolo]

.410's don't shove them out at the same speed as a 12 gauge. Plus, when you consider the fact that the .410 has three balls compared to nine out of a 12 gauge with tons more power, there is no question.
And a 5.56 is less powerful than a 7.62x51. You use it in greater quantity.
I think the meat of this is that .410 is not powerful enough to take goblins.
Okay. We make a bigger gauge.
I watched the YouTube Saiga-12 vids, and that recoil was pretty punishing. The Saiga had more control over where the rounds were going than the shooter did. Not good.
So speed is an issue. Then you should just use a bigger gauge. Not 12, too big for what I'm looking for.
I'm really looking to shoot roughly 2-3 "9mms" (bullets of equivalent weights to a 9mm Parabellum, yes I know 000 shot is not as heavy) with each round. The rounds should be significantly thinner than 12 gauge so that you aren't stuck with small 10-round mags. I want at least a 20 round magazine for this weapon, roughly the power of 3 9mms with each pull of the trigger and full-auto.
I think it's a reasonable bill. Something like .55 caliber, perhaps?
Ashcraft, fair enough, I wasn't sure where to put this as it is rather a combination of the shotgun concept and the submachinegun concept.

[VirgilCaine]

Uh, stupid question here. Does the 20 gauge fit the bill?

[Nolo]

I've shot 20 gauge, and I still think it's a bit big. Wide, really. I want to avoid a maximum magazine capacity of only 10-ish rounds.
I just did a search, the .410 magnum rounds in 000 buckshot have five pellets, not three.

[Nolo]

A 12 gauge in 000 buckshot does 1400 f/s.
A .410 bore in 000 buckshot does 1140 f/s.
So we've got a 250 f/s disparity.
If you design the cartridge right, I think that you can get over that.
The pressures are pretty low for both of those shells, no?
Make the pressures higher. The AK can take it.

[theCZ]

Uhh, any reason you wouldn't want to upgrade to 28ga instead of 410?

[bogie]

My favorite shotgun defense load is #4... I figure .25 cal is still big enough, and there's gonna be a bunch more holes punched whatever I'm aiming at.

If it's beyond 50 yards, fine.

[WAshooter]

i've never shot one but this guy doesnt seem to have a problem

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmlIve5kk34

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hjq4fIBuiw4

[Nolo]

Aside from recoil, the main beef I have with 12 gauge is its width. It's so wide for a magazine-fed weapon. You can't really have a good hi-capacity magazine with 12 gauge. "Hi-cap" for a 12 is 20 rounds. And that's really hi-cap. A 20-round drum for a Saiga is the same size or bigger than a 75 round drum on an AK. I don't have a problem with 12 gauge normally, but in this case I wish you could have a higher capacity.
Uhh, any reason you wouldn't want to upgrade to 28ga instead of 410?
I believe I mentioned 28 gauge before in the OP. If I didn't, I meant to, as I was seriously considering that round.

[Nolo]

Hmmm... I think a 3" 28 gauge is rather in order, here.

[Deer Hunter]

Something like this, Nolo?

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh20-e.htm

[Zundfolge]

Tromix makes what it sounds like you're looking for.

http://www.tromix.com/images/s21-41010inchC-sm.gif
http://www.tromix.com/saiga.htm (scroll to the bottom)

[Nolo]

Not really, Deer Hunter, but you are closer than I think a lot of people are (I have seen that weapon before, by the way, visit world.guns often). I think people are getting their heads in a knot because of the fact that they're thinking "shotgun" when I'm thinking "improved submachine gun". So yeah, you're close, but it's not exactly what I was thinking of. Especially since the ergonomics on that thing look terrible and it's a pump. I'm going auto, baby.

[Javelin]

So you want a belt fed M240-eh..12? hehe. That would be interesting.

:D

[Deer Hunter]

That's as close as you're going to come to what you're looking for while still having the handiness and short range functionality of an SMG. Anything else and you're looking into a simply shortened version of a regular autoloading shotgun. Honestly, for a subgun to be any better than an intermediate rifle in a small package, it must be very small and concealable.

[Nolo]

It's close. Like others, I think that the .410 is a bit small for the job, but it's close. I was considering .500, .510 and .550.
One of the things I'm kinda trying to figure out right now is cartridge efficiency. I'm looking for about 3-6 000 pellets in each shell, arranged in this pattern:
O O
O
or this pattern:
OO
So you'd have a layered stack, not an in-line like a .410, I believe.

[Nolo]

That's as close as you're going to come to what you're looking for while still having the handiness and short range functionality of an SMG. Anything else and you're looking into a simply shortened version of a regular autoloading shotgun. Honestly, for a subgun to be any better than an intermediate rifle in a small package, it must be very small and concealable.
I disagree. You could make the weapon bullpup or just put the magazine in front of the grip with a relatively short barrel. Since we're not trying to break fragmentation velocity, a shorter barrel is less of a problem.

[Javelin]

Ok ok. M249-12 gauge shorty barrel w/ M4 collapsible stock (linked or magazine option). Something out of sci-fi I think. Good idea. Now Tony Ruemur needs to make it!

:)

[Bud Tugly]

Most 12 gauge reduced-recoil 000 buckshot loads I've seen shoot 9 pellets at around 1150 ft/sec and I don't see anyone saying they are useless for self defense. Why would the 5 pellets at 1140 fps out of a .410 be ineffective?

Mind you, if I'm defending my life and family I want the biggest gun I can get, but I think some people just refuse to give the smaller guns any credit at all. Not everybody can handle the weight and recoil of the biggest guns, so they're forced to compromise as best they can.

[Nolo]

Mind you, I would also have a much greater magazine capacity and rate of fire than most shotguns.
I'm thinking about using a 3" .500 caliber saboted .36 caliber ( ball or streamlined?) triplex round now. Do you think I should use a triplex or quadriplex load?

[Bud Tugly]

Nolo, if you're looking for something that will put as much lead in the air as possible, why not just build yourself one of these:

http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_DREAD,,00.html

[Robert Hairless]

The Saiga 12 right from the factory has the mildest perceived recoil of any 12 gauge shotgun I've ever fired. Two magazines full are not even an appetizer.

[ilcylic]

Bogie: Tromix does an 8 inch Saiga conversion that works just fine. An 18.5 chop should work great. http://www.FBMGinc.com has listings for them and plain Saiga-12s.

[Bad Penny 03]

poor solution to a non-existent problem.

Belt fed and drum magazine .410ga's have already been explored and the projects dropped due to pattern density issues and overall ineffectiveness.

Those that the products would be marketed too had access to select fire weapons and other munitions so a weapon with limited range and spotty "Accuracy" using feeding devices and ammunition that didn't fit the TO&E was, in the end, just a silly and pointless idea.

I think this looks really good on paper...if you write comic books.

[357wheelgunner]

I've shot 20 gauge, and I still think it's a bit big. Wide, really. I want to avoid a maximum magazine capacity of only 10-ish rounds.


Um....What are you doing with your shotgun that you need/want more than 10 rounds for...Is it zombies or ninjas that plague you?

As far as pellets on board, a 10 round Saiga has:

10 shells x 12 pellets each = 120 pellets in 10 shots

Lets say you could cram 15 or 20 .410 5 pellet shells into a magazine similar in size to the 12 guage 10 round magazine (which is HUGE):

15 shells x 5 pellets each = 75 pellets

20 shells x 5 pellets each = 100 pellets

What have you gained, less lead in smaller doses for those herds of invaders we all need to repel?

Shotgunners need more training, not more ammunition on board to miss with.

[foghornl]

Hmmmmmm........

A belt-fed or very-large capacity box magazine "full-auto" shotgun???

Interesting concept...I think it would just about REQUIRE full-brass shells...Imagine ripping off a long burst, then the plastic shell sits in the hot chamber for a while....could be verrrrry interrrresting on the next shot or 2.

[huff.jeremy]

I think a lot of people are giving less credit to this idea than it deserves. The .410 is far from non-lethal, and the weight/size of the shells would alow for larger magazing capacity. That is all that matters for a self defense weapon right? In additon, it has less recoil, always a bonus for accuracy and usability, especially if a smaller member of the household needs to use it.

Claiming that the user of a gun should become more accurate instead of getting a bigger magazine goes against most self-defense philosophies. Yes, accuracy is important, but in an emergency situation, you want as few reloads as possible.

[brighamr]

Many cartridges\calibers\shells etc started by someone thinking "outside the box". the cartridge\shell begins as a wild cat, then after general acceptance the rest of the world wants one.

Keep on with the idea. I think you have something here, just need to iron out the details.