[GunTech]

Found this somewhat interesting.

ATF's contract with SIG has expired an they are now looking for a new gun. They either have to rebid the contract, or use a follow on contract with an existing supplier. Right now, they can follow on with Glock or S&W. Right now the smart money is on Glock, with agency prices so low that they can buy 2 Glocks for the price of 1 SIG. Also, when ATF originally tested autos as replacements for their S&W Model 66s, the Glock came out on top. It wasn't adopted because the 'plastic gun' controversy was in full swing and it was considered politically unsound to adopt the plastic gun.

SIGs will remain in service, and be replaced as they wear out. New agents will be issues the new pistol.

[Scorpiusdeus]

Always nice to know our government agents is protected by the lowest bidder.

[DENALI]

It only makes sense to go with the Glock, and thats the reason they went with Sig's...

[obiwan1]

They probably could "tag on" to the DHS contracts and get Sigs or H&Ks.

[azredhawk44]

I hear only DEA agents are "qualified" to carry Glocks. I think I know of someone who could come and train them, though. :neener:

[GunTech]

I'm not sure what the deal is, but right now the only two options are the Glock and the S&W unless there's a new bid, in which case it would be an open competition. I think the agency price for the Glock is under $300, which might be pretty hard to beat.

[DevilDog0402]

They could do worse!

I would like to see the Marine Corps switch to the Glock over the Beretta, but I don't think that they will ever issue a weapon without an external safety.

[CountGlockula]

they can buy 2 Glocks for the price of 1 SIG...

BINGO!!!

[Scorpiusdeus]

How many Kahr or Kelt-Tecs can you get for the price of a Glock?

[Hoppy590]

I would like to see the Marine Corps switch to the Glock over the Beretta,

not gunna happen.

[MAKster]

Since the other U.S. Department of Justice agencies use 40 caliber Glocks (FBI, DEA, USMS) it would only make sense for ATF to switch to Glock as well.

[Ala Dan]

Personally, if I were an ATF agent (which I'm not) I would rather have the
M11 pistol; commonly known as the P228. They can keep all of those Glocks
in their armory, as far as I'm concerned~! :uhoh: ;)

[Autolycus]

Why do tax agents need guns?

[W.E.G.]

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/humor/sissypistol.jpg
.
.
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/humor/deaglock40.jpg
.
.
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/humor/DarthVader.jpg

[ccmdfd]

Also, when ATF originally tested autos as replacements for their S&W Model 66s, the Glock came out on top.

Do you have specifics on what type of testing was done and what the exact results were?

Thanks

[gudel]

I think they should switch to Glock. sig is overpriced and overrated.

[Mr.Revolverguy]

Well I will say it.

S&W M&P 45

[woo18]

"Always nice to know our government agents is protected by the lowest bidder."

In this case, the low bidder isn't bad. In fact it is a really reliable and accurate weapon.

[GunTech]

I'll see if I can get the original test, but keep in mind that this was in the 1980s so the Glock was pretty much the only polymer framed Auto and the plastic pistol was still very much in the news.

I do know that one of the tests involved shooting the guns as fast as possible until they failed.

As far as the SIGs, I've heard numerous complaints from agents about frame cracking on their new Sigs. It wasn't that long that they switched to the 40, and already they have guns that need to be replaced. Of course ATF agents shoot their guns in training more than most agencies.

[GunTech]

Why do tax agents need guns?

Aside from NFA, ATF has no tax function. When ATF was transferred from Treasury to Justice, the tax functions were split off to the Tax and Trade bureau.

[owen]

so ATF is no longer responsible for the alcohol and tobacco taxes?

[Andrewsky]

I personally don't care how functional the Gang's guns are.

[GunTech]

so ATF is no longer responsible for the alcohol and tobacco taxes?

Correct. The collection function is now done by the Tax and Trade bureau. The also collect the FET on guns and ammo. NFA is still administered by ATF, IIRC

http://www.ttb.gov/about/index.shtml

[DENALI]

The Glock mechanism brings a lot to the table, unsurpassed durability, a simple manual of arms and it's oh so easy to maintain. Toss in a sub $300,00 pricepoint and it's awfully seductive, Sig's are almost double the $$$ and I just don't see them able to compete because of that..

[Boats]

I'm not sure what the deal is, but right now the only two options are the Glock and the S&W unless there's a new bid, in which case it would be an open competition. I think the agency price for the Glock is under $300, which might be pretty hard to beat.

My money is on this curious state of affairs being tied to Clinton era pussyfooting with gun control by both S&W and Glock.

S&W sold out lock, stock, & barrel for preferential status in future governmental arms contracts.

Glock, under the direction of Glock USA top dog at the time, Jannuzzo, had been secretly ballistically fingerprinting all domestically sold Glocks without the consent of consumers as part of an ATF pilot project that was revealed unapologetically on 60 Minutes.

How soon certain of us forgive via forgetting.:banghead:

[GunTech]

Boats, this is huge news! Do you have a link?

Are they collecting data for the IBIS systems?

[outerlimit]

Must be so that they can go through metal detectors without setting them off. :rolleyes:

[boalex207]

"We're with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms."

"Let me guess... this isn't about the alcohol or the tobacco."

[Deacon Blues]

SIGs will remain in service, and be replaced as they wear out. New agents will be issues the new pistol.So, basically, new agents will get Glocks, and everybody else will go to their graves with their SIGs. :D

[Boats]

http://www.atf.treas.gov/press/speech/fy00/040700ggdsymposium.htm

[GunTech]

SIGs are wearing out already. Sorry SIG guys.

[MICHAEL T]

I hope so then we will be able to ID by their limp

[Spyvie]

I used to work in the IT department of a federal agency, we were required by law to use only American computer hardware and software. An effort was made to get all supplies and equipment from a domestic source.

Before that I was an IT guy for a state executive office, I had to spend my entire budget with in-state vendors. By some decree, all of the office furniture had to come from the state prison's furniture making operation.

Why wouldn't the ATF look at the M&P or the XD?

[GunTech]

The M&P is the other gun on the list. But since Glock is making stuff in Smyrna, I think it slips in as a domestic gun by the regulations. XD is made in Croatia.

[Sonic]

The M&P is the other gun on the list. But since Glock is making stuff in Smyrna, I think it slips in as a domestic gun by the regulations. XD is made in Croatia.

I think Glock's facility in Smyrna just handles sales and repair services for North America. As far as I know all of Glock's manufacturing capacity is still in Austria. This is why U.S. civilians can't buy the .380 Glock models, the 25 and 28. Foreign made handguns have to meet some arcane 'import points' regulation the ATF has before they are allowed to be imported for sale to the public (law enforcement and military sales are as usual exempt), and the .380 Glocks don't have enough points to qualify for import. Not that this is a big deal, since there really wouldn't be any demand here for .380 Glock pistols that are about the same same size as Glock's other compact and sub-compact models that fire more powerful cartridges.

[GunTech]

Could be, sonic. I doubt agencies are required to buy American in this case, since they have SIGs and HKs, as well as Glocks.

[DENALI]

Glock is now manufacturing the polymer frames in Smyrna........

[buttrap]

They still have the DHS contract to fall back on. And no I dont think they will be letting out a new contract. All they have to do is show the money on paper and order that ever they want as long as its a .40 or a 9mm.

[CTPistol]

As a taxpayer and owner of both brands I surely hope they switch to Glock.

I agree with the above poster - SIGs are overpriced and overrated. Good pistols? sure...but certainly not better than a glock in any area except looks - and Im not paying for that.

[doc2rn]

Cant wait for DEA repeat of the foot incident. "I am the only one here qualified......"

[Pigspitter]

Yeah, I'm glad the ATF will be able to shoot me with a reliable firearm so they can pry the gun from my cold, dead, Constitution-loving, American, hands.

[kd7nqb]

well its my sig lines obligation to say go M&P. I know Glock has super cheap agency prices but S&W is no dummy they could sell these guns for $5 a piece to get a .gov contract just for the free publicity.

[Texshooter]

and I should care what non-.45 some guvment agency is using why?

[TimboKhan]

I would like to see the Marine Corps switch to the Glock over the Beretta, but I don't think that they will ever issue a weapon without an external safety.

No, and nor should they. A goodly portion of the Marines (and soldiers and airmen) that carry pistols know just enough to be dangerous and thats about it. If pistol training was rigorous and frequent, I could see it. If it is like what it was when I was in (Neither rigorous or frequent), then they need all the external safety devices they can get.

[HungSquirrel]

I think they should switch to butter knives.

[mikec]

Whatever gun they go to, let's just hope that they don't waste our money with "testing' and evaluation trials unless they are going to a brand new model. I think the ATF and the US government can trust all the prior trials/testing. (Glock models I am talking about.)

[elderboy02]

They should do what the FBI did and get G22's and G23's.

[Autolycus]

I dont think the ATF needs firearms personally. All the things laws they enforce are unconstitutional.

[milo z]

Curious about the pricing issue earlier - civilian street price on a plain-jane M&P40 right now is $349 - $399 and a $50 rebate.

Are S&W really cutting it so close that their LE price couldn't beat Glock?

[DENALI]

Well TimboKhan at the turn of the century how rigorous was the average Marine's training when they were entrusted with revolvers? In all honesty DOD should take there cue from FED LE and just take the plunge. Worried about the average soldier or marine's lack of training? Fit the Glock with a NY-1 trigger and there you go, I really get tired of this mindset that they can't be trusted to safely handle the pistol's. In combat a pistol is simply an emergency tool and as such the Glock bring's nothing but upside. I mean really, a G-17 vs M-9 or 11 at half the cost or less to the taxpayer it's a no-brainer. Please don't get angry with me over this just look at it like you have to pay for it or carry the pistol. The beretta and Sig are really nice guns but I can't believe they come close to offering the same type of combat durability the Glock's have demonstrated. Consider, the Glock frame can be replaced on the spot if needed, no fitting required, ditto for all the other parts. This is a huge advantage under combat conditions that neither the M-9 or 11 can duplicate. Virtually every platoon could have there own armourer. This is a no-brainer and thats why it'll never happen...........

[Eightball]

Good for them. Now back to my daily routine.

What the .gov does or doesn't use doesn't affect my preconceptions about the agencies in question, or the firearms I prefer, in the least bit. YMMV.

[Scorpiusdeus]

SIGs are wearing out already. Sorry SIG guys.

Has this actually been documented? I've not ever seen a Sig wear out. Unless of course you are talking about general service and maintenance, springs replacement and things of that nature.

Usually this story are form a friend of a friend or "a guy I know".

Is there any actual proof?

Even if the ATF does qualify more than most Feds, I doubt they shoot as much as some of the Sig owners I know and not a single worn out Sig have I seen.

[Darthbauer]

If the sigs are wearing out from normal wear and tear then they should just get those fixed. That would be cheaper than getting a whole new gun.

That and since this is the ATF we are talking about here and not soliders in combat how is the gun going to wear out? Its just sitting in a holster.

[mpmarty]

I dunno 'bout you, but if I had to carry and shoot a 40S&W the very LAST choice in a pistol make I'd want would be a KaBoom er.. Glock.

[AntiqueCollector]

I'd definately not go with a Glock! Stupid plastic guns...give me steel!;)

Wait a minute, we're talking about the ATF here...plastic all the way, how about supersoakers for them?:D

[DENALI]

OOOH, thats a clever argument....................

[mikec]

Has this actually been documented? I've not ever seen a Sig wear out. Unless of course you are talking about general service and maintenance, springs replacement and things of that nature.

Well, one day I was talking to a Baltimore County PD officer. He said that the department was going to another handgun, forget which now, due to their SIGs having wear issues. I also believe part of the issue is the fact that they issued .40 S&W caliber weapons. I think the issue SIG was the SIG Pro. Is the Pro still made?

[Gunnerpalace]

Why not the good old M1911?

I started a battle didn't I?

[WVMountainBoy]

If an open bid and evaluation is presented then I think there will be a few more players show up. Springfield XD's, Glock, S&W M&P's, Sig, and Beretta are all competitive in the service weapon field. I do believe that Glock would win in the price war, but could ditch out to some of the features of the other weapons. I'm a fan of the XD line, but have never had an issue with Glock. If however, everyone else is using, say Glock G22's, than the BATF should as well. It comes down to the NATO ideal of having interchangability with other field units. Can be a life saver if you can look at your DEA counterpart and have him toss you a fresh magazine.
I've never liked that all the law enforcement in my area carry different weapons. The State Troopers carry S&W 45's, the Sherriff's Deputies carry SIG 40's, and the municipals carry Glock 40's...could make a tactical nightmare. The only weapon that is used by all three is the Remington 870

[Eyesac]

I dunno 'bout you, but if I had to carry and shoot a 40S&W the very LAST choice in a pistol make I'd want would be a KaBoom er.. Glock.

Cheebis.

Oh my golly! I hope everyone out there w/ a Glock in .40 knows they could explode at any moment! Alert the press! It's an Austrian/ATF conspiracy! Are the FBI and countless PD's trying to kill their own officers?!!!!:banghead:


Anywhoo, I sincerly hope they do, the less my Gov spends the better.

[mikec]

Oh my golly! I hope everyone out there w/ a Glock in .40 knows they could explode at any moment! Alert the press! It's an Austrian/ATF conspiracy! Are the FBI and countless PD's trying to kill their own officers?!!!!


In all seriousness just think what would happen if an officer's gun did go boom while he/she was on duty and firing at a criminal. I know that almost all of the Glock kabooms have been with either lead loads or reloaded ammo, but facts don't always protect a company against the lawyers or the media.

[CountGlockula]

I have two Glocks in .40S&W and haven't Kaboomed on me. Working on buying my third .40S&W Glock. I love the caliber!

[stiab]

Aside from NFA, ATF has no tax function. When ATF was transferred from Treasury to Justice, the tax functions were split off to the Tax and Trade bureau.


Actually, ATF law enforcement agents have never had a tax collection function. The ATF under the IRS and Treasury Department had an enforcement branch (criminal investigators) and a regulatory branch (facility inspectors). Regulatory determined taxes on legal liquor at the distillery site and the federal tax on tobacco was paid on bulk tobacco before it was made into cigarettes, etc. When the enforcement agents seized illicit distilleries, non-tax paid liquor, etc., they did not attempt to collect federal taxes ($10.50 per gallon). Seizure documents were forwarded to the IRS who could choose to seek tax payment from convicted offenders. ATF law enforcement officers investigate the criminal acts that sometimes result in loss of tax revenues, but have never had the responsibility of collecting taxes.

[RustyShackelford]

I'm the only one here professional enough to...BANG! :rolleyes:

I thought it was now the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Expolsives. It changed when the old ATF agency left Treas and went into the US Dept of Homeland Security. :D

If I ran things(and I do not, :rolleyes:), I'd issue the sworn ATFE SAs(agents-inspectors/investigators/LEOs) the HK P-2000/P-30 LEM or maybe the .40 SIGsauer DAK/DHS model P-229. Then these federal agents could augment the FAMs and ICE agents on US airlines. :D

I like the HK .357sig in LEM P-2000s/P-30s but the SIG/DAK is a solid weapon.

Rusty S