Minn. man shoots cops after SWAT team kicks down wrong door


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ky_man
December 17, 2007, 02:04 PM
http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/12/minn-man-shoots.html



A Minneapolis police SWAT team kicked in the wrong door yesterday during an early morning raid, prompting the man of the house to grab his gun and open fire on the officers who entered the house.

"He took out his shotgun and he said if they are bad guys I'll shoot, I'll scare them away," Dao Khang, the brother of the homeowner, Vang Khang, tells the Star Tribune. "He fired first, he told me it was two shots."

Dao Khang says his brother was trying to protect his wife and six children. No one from the family was hit during the exchange of gunfire. Vang hit two officers, but the Pioneer Press says they were protected by ballistic vests and helmets.

"I must've heard over 20 or 30 shots, I swear, it was scary," Ruth Hayes, the family's next-door neighbor, tells WCCO-TV. "It was like 30 SWAT guys out here ... it was crazy it was just like havoc."

KARE-TV reports that Vang was detained at the scene and released a few hours later. Police say there may have been a "language barrier" between the residents and the officers.

"It was some bad information that was received on the front end that kind-of trickled all the way through," police Sgt. Jesse Garcia tells the station. "It's unfortunate because we have officers that were hit by gunfire and this truly, truly could have been a much worse situation."

Police haven't decided whether they'll try to charge Khang with a crime. KMSP-TV says the Khang family is consulting with a civil attorney.

What would you do? This story reminds us of the postings we wrote earlier this year about an elderly woman who was shot death when Atlanta cops kicked in the wrong door during a drug investigation.
• 92-year-old woman dies in shootout with police
• In Atlanta: 'Somebody is lying'
• Report: D.A. plans murder charges against Atlanta cops


What is going to happen to this guy? No deaths, and he was defending his home and property from "unidentified invaders". More fallout from "no knock" warrants, I suppose.

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K3
December 17, 2007, 02:07 PM
Police haven't decided whether they'll try to charge Khang with a crime. KMSP-TV says the Khang family is consulting with a civil attorney.

If it is simply a matter of them effing up and going into the wrong house, why would they even consider charges?

Kacerdias
December 17, 2007, 02:11 PM
If I were in charge of determining the outcome - The homeowner would not be charged with any crime. The police department would pay for the damage done to his property (30 shots!?) and will be liable for a civil suit. Those responsible for faulty intel and kicking in the wrong door will be reprimanded and punished according to department policy up to and including termination.

No knock raids MUST stop. :fire:

TexasRifleman
December 17, 2007, 02:12 PM
I can't remember how many threads we've had here that said if you did this you'd be dead no ifs ands or butts because LEO is always so much "better" at this kind of thing.

Interesting how this turned out.

So it IS possible to rightfully and legally defend your home against illegal invasion and survive? Gee, I'm shocked...... (not really)

Police haven't decided whether they'll try to charge Khang with a crime.

That's just typical BS reporting. I'm sure the District Attorney will be well entrenched in the middle of this trying to decide who gets charged. My money is on the cop that took the information from an informant for the warrant but didn't follow it up.

(Other stories on this say the address came from an informant not from direct LE investigation).

phil_in_cs
December 17, 2007, 02:15 PM
So he fired twice and connected, thankfully into body armor. They fired the other 28 times? and hit nothing?

K3
December 17, 2007, 02:17 PM
So he fired twice and connected, thankfully into body armor. They fired the other 28 times? and hit nothing?

If he was shooting an SKS with FMJs we might be having funerals for a couple of public servants. Methinks that SOMEONE in the department should have made sure all the t's were dotted and the i's crossed. How does this wrong address stuff slip through the cracks as often as it does?

matt87
December 17, 2007, 02:18 PM
If it is simply a matter of them effing up and going into the wrong house, why would they even consider charges?
Because they're the police. (Yeah yeah I know it may be cop bashing, but I can't see any other explainantion.)

Cosmoline
December 17, 2007, 02:20 PM
Dao Khang says his brother was trying to protect his wife and six children. No one from the family was hit during the exchange of gunfire. Vang hit two officers, but the Pioneer Press says they were protected by ballistic vests and helmets.

So much for the expert SWAT marksmen. If the fellow had been using brenneke slugs they would have been toast.

tallpaul
December 17, 2007, 02:21 PM
Some are annoyed that just because some one yells "police" that a homeowner would shoot. I have annoyed more than one officer saying that ANYONE can say that and that they sell uniforms etc on ebay everyday. I WILL NOT sit back while intruders illegally enter my home with guns drawn. They will be nuetralized. If LE has a legitamate beef with me call me up/in etc. I have nothing to hide. Thier insecurites or intell mean NOTHING TO ME!!!

dom1104
December 17, 2007, 02:22 PM
Something is missing.

Scene 1: "Honey, I hear something"
Scene 2: BLAM <door is kicked down> "POLICE!"
Scene 3: "Honey, give me my blunderbuss! BOOM BOOM"
Scene 4: <The police open up with 30 shots>
Scene 5: Everyone is unharmed, and trying to figure out who sues who.

This.. does not make sense.

Possible Scenario 1.

These cops are the worst shots in the history of law enforcement. If you cant hit a homeowner in his pajamas that you surprised in the middle of the night... with 30 rounds....in full tactical gear <this makes me smile at the mall-ninjas that think being decked out like a SWAT team makes you the UBERSOLDIER... obviously learning how to shoot helps.>

Cosmoline
December 17, 2007, 02:24 PM
Maybe they were just using short guns.

Markbo
December 17, 2007, 02:28 PM
If there were truly honesty, integrity and balanced/fair reporting, the very first reports would have been on how Mr. Khang was victimizerd by an overzealous Swat team.

SWAT on a drug raid? 30 officers? 28 shots? Mr. Vang obviously had a language problem so the fact that a herd of armed men screaming at the top of their lungs did not make themselves clear is no big mystery.

Heck even on "Cops" when they bust in a door most of the people inside are just in shock until they are shoved down on the floor. I can imagine it takes a little time for everything to be clear what is going on... AND have gunshots shooting all around you????

I think Mr. Vang did exactly the right things, including contacting a civil attorney immediately. You can bet the city won't just up and apologize for this 'misunderstanding' and offer to fix up his house.

qlajlu
December 17, 2007, 02:30 PM
These cops are the worst shots in the history of law enforcement. If you cant hit a homeowner in his pajamas that you surprised in the middle of the night... with 30 rounds....
Someone was very, very lucky! On both sides.

This is also my worst nightmare because I live in a neighborhood where this type of thing COULD happen. If not the bad guys trying to rob you, then the good guys kicking your door in because they think you are the robber or worse.

Yes, someone was very lucky, indeed.

Thernlund
December 17, 2007, 02:34 PM
It's absolutely infuriating that there is even the possibility that this guy will be changed. I'd have done the same thing he did. If someone busts down my door I should stop and check their credentials before I open fire?! F*** that! If my or my family's lives are at risk, I'm going to down the threat post haste. If it turns out to be a SWAT team with the wrong address, I'll take comfort in the fact that I thought I had no choice. Then I'll spend every dime I have making sure someone pays for the life I took and that it never happens again.

:fire::fire::fire::fire:


-T.

qlajlu
December 17, 2007, 02:39 PM
That's assuming that you are still alive when it is all over!

geekWithA.45
December 17, 2007, 02:40 PM
Police haven't decided whether they'll try to charge Khang with a crime.

Outrageous.

Prostrating themselves before that family and begging their forgiveness would be a good start.

Roswell 1847
December 17, 2007, 02:40 PM
If you cant hit a homeowner in his pajamas that you surprised in the middle of the night... with 30 rounds....
Hitting an Asian wearing Pajamas has proven extraordinarily difficult at times, especially if the Pajamas are black. In fact thats the main reason they started using 30 shot mags instead of the old 20 rounders.
Even then it took about a hundred thousand rounds per kill.

phil_in_cs
December 17, 2007, 02:42 PM
The '30 shots' is a guess from a witness, and was likely a single guy putting a clip from his brand new MP5 into the ceiling.

I saw video from a convenience store shoot out where the owner and 2 BGs fired 30+ rounds at distances out to 10 feet, without anyone getting directly hit.

ilbob
December 17, 2007, 02:48 PM
Hopefully the homeowner will get a few million bucks out of the incident. Money seems to be the only thing that matters these days, and if they have to pay out big time, maybe they will not use false (probably falsified) information the next time.

"It was some bad information that was received on the front end that kind-of trickled all the way through," police Sgt. Jesse Garcia tells the station. "It's unfortunate because we have officers that were hit by gunfire and this truly, truly could have been a much worse situation."

Doesn't seem to bother him that this so called "bad information" (more likely fake information) might have led to the murders of a number of what appears to be law abiding citizens.

Geno
December 17, 2007, 02:50 PM
Well, after reading the thread locked at 11:30ish, I'd say this is about to lock too. That said, I think there is serious food for thought as to the happenings of the event. Fortunately, no one was injured.

Doc2005

230RN
December 17, 2007, 02:54 PM
"A Minneapolis police SWAT team kicked in the wrong door yesterday during an early morning raid...."

Again?

When are those judges and magistrates who sign those darned no-knock warrants going to wise up and put the screws to the Officers' Affadavits?

Not cop-bashing, either, but this is getting to be ridiculous!

"Oh, a confidential 'informant' told you such and so an address? OK by me, go ahead and bash in the party's door. Let me get my rubber stamp, here... (sound of rubber stamp on warrant)... OK, there you go."

"Thank you, Your Dishonor."

Ultrachimp
December 17, 2007, 02:56 PM
Hitting an Asian wearing Pajamas has proven extraordinarily difficult at times, especially if the Pajamas are black. In fact thats the main reason they started using 30 shot mags instead of the old 20 rounders.
Even then it took about a hundred thousand rounds per kill.

I lol'd.

Hopefully he'll sue the city's pants off.

MICHAEL T
December 17, 2007, 03:00 PM
I hope the man and his family will enjoy the large amount of money. They with the help of their lawyer will be getting.
SWAT team needs disbanded Their suppose to be top markman and get address right.
Once more a Civ. has shown with little or no training in a self defence sitution to have a better hit to shots fired than police.
Give cops cap and ball pistols They might improve their shooting I am tired of reading about all the shots fired by Police and most miss and endanger other people. This wasn't a problem in days of revolver . Police hit targets . Of course they didn't storm you home in middle of the night dressed like Ninja either.

230RN
December 17, 2007, 03:04 PM
^^^ Ref Ultrachimp Post 22
WMPOTO
(Wet My Pants On That One)

doc2rn
December 17, 2007, 03:04 PM
This is the reason shotguns are made for home defense! Score shotgun 2 vs handgun -28, just proves what I been saying for years, foil hat off. Thank god the law abiding citizens where not hurt. Another one chalked up for average joe.

Zundfolge
December 17, 2007, 03:09 PM
This is a dupe of a locked thread ... wonder how long 'til Jeff finds this one :p


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=324198

DoubleTapDrew
December 17, 2007, 03:27 PM
Add another pin to THIS MAP (http://www.cato.org/raidmap/)
This is happening way too often, usually without even an appology, let alone a "here's a check for a new door and to patch our bullet holes". I don't want harm to come to cops or citizens, but maybe the more this happens the more they'll realize they need to double-check the bleeping address before they kick in someone's door.

Here's another version of the story: (http://wcco.com/crime/shots.fired.officers.2.611952.html)
MINNEAPOLIS (WCCO) ― Police officers on the Minneapolis SWAT Team were shot at and hit by several rounds from a suspect's gun while executing a search warrant at a home early Sunday morning. Two officers were hit by the gunfire, but not hurt.

The homeowner's family said the police broke into the wrong house.

At 12:46 a.m. Sunday officers were executing a search warrant on the 1300 block of Logan Avenue North as part of an on-going investigation.

"I must've heard over 20 or 30 shots, I swear, it was scary," said Ruth Hayes, who woke up to a loud boom and then gunfire next door. Minneapolis SWAT officers were executing a search warrant at the Khang home.

"It was like 30 SWAT guys out here ... it was crazy it was just like havoc," said Hayes.

Police said the officers searched the first floor, found no one, and on their way to they second floor they were confronted by a man.

According to police, the officers identified themselves and the man fired several rounds at them. Two officers were hit, but were not hurt since they were wearing protective vests and helmets.

Police said several officers returned fire, but no one in the house was injured. However, the homeowner's family said that's not how it happened.

"He heard footsteps, and he thought it was bad guys, when police come inside, they don't say anything," said Dao Khang, the homeowner's brother.

Dao Khang said his brother Vang Khang was trying to protect his children and fired a shotgun he used for hunting, when officers fired back eight to 10 rounds.

"It you look at the holes, I don't really know how my brother survived, he's really lucky," said Dao Khang.

Neighbors said they did hear police identify themselves, but after they broke down the door. They're surprised police would have any reason to raid the Khang home.

"Nothing suspicious, they're a normal family. It could happen to us, to me," said neighbor Gene Hayes.

Vang Khang was taken into custody after the search, but his family said he was released by late morning. His brother said Vang Khang has lived in the United States for 20 years and never had any trouble with the law.

Vang Khang, his wife and six children are now staying with family nearby.

Two sources familiar with the case said they're investigating if the officers went to the wrong house. An internal affairs investigation is already underway.


The involved officers have been placed on administrative leave during the investigation of the shooting, which is standard procedure. The officers involved haven't been identified.




Yet another version (http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=490039) said they confiscated weapons on the other raids they conducted during the weekend. Didn't say if weapons were what they were looking for or not.

Geno
December 17, 2007, 03:31 PM
DoubleTapDrew:

Excellent contribution! It helps to conceptualize how often, and where these events have happened!

Doc2005

cassandrasdaddy
December 17, 2007, 03:53 PM
its a sad side effect of the "lets make a deal" syndrome. they catch some genius for something and offer the olg sdongbird act. you squeal you fly away. so the genius gives up anyone to get off. even if he has to make something up. the guys they catch are not members of the high iq club.

tuckerdog1
December 17, 2007, 04:04 PM
Guess this is why only the police should have guns. nobody gets hurt:D

Tuckerdog1

Officers'Wife
December 17, 2007, 04:10 PM
Hi Daddy,

its a sad side effect of the "lets make a deal" syndrome.

While you may have a strong point, let's not forget these alledged professions apparently did not bother to verify their information. With the surname 'Kang' I have to wonder if the homeowner isn't from the Asian portion of the old Soviet Union and was having flashbacks of KGB type law enforcement.

Selena

wuchak
December 17, 2007, 04:15 PM
The Minneapolis police department needs to issue an immediate release stating that they will no longer use no-knock warrants. Short of that the good citizens of Minneapolis need to tar and feather the police commissioner and run him out of town and replace him with a commissioner who will adopt such a policy change.

Mr White
December 17, 2007, 04:39 PM
30 shots by the police and no one is hit???

Some police commander is giving one of subordiantes hell right now:
"When I said 'Send in the A team', I meant our best SWAT team, not the actual A-Team!!!"

Neo-Luddite
December 17, 2007, 04:55 PM
"It's unfortunate because we have officers that were hit by gunfire and this truly, truly could have been a much worse situation."

Yeh pal-- like those poor guys in body armor who failed to have accurate intel might have slaughtered a citizen and his family in their own home.

I'll assume that is what he meant.

highorder
December 17, 2007, 04:57 PM
how is it possible that highly tranined officers can not get even a single round on target?

don't they have training in these types of situations?

Nicky Santoro
December 17, 2007, 05:02 PM
What is going to happen to this guy?

Blue Wall of Silence goes up...

Perjury occurs to cover up incompetence....

Homeowner charged.....


Same stuff.... different day

average_shooter
December 17, 2007, 05:05 PM
This is either going to be closed (ibtl) or merged with the other thread. Or it will be allowed to devolve into ten pages of "cop bashing" before the lock...

yongxingfreesty
December 17, 2007, 05:06 PM
*** is going on. i cant believe no one was hurt, that is a good thing. charged for protecting your home and family is not right.

LiquidTension
December 17, 2007, 05:08 PM
My department serves between eight and ten thousand warrants statewide every year. We do ZERO no knocks. We always announce. We've never lost an agent, and since our department was created over 50 years ago we've only killed one perpetrator.

Sure, knocking and identifying ourselves will give them time to destroy evidence on occasion - but if we're at the wrong house (easy to do when none of the trailers have numbers on them :rolleyes: ) we find out BEFORE a firefight breaks out.

highorder
December 17, 2007, 05:15 PM
My department serves between eight and ten thousand warrants statewide every year. We do ZERO no knocks. We always announce. We've never lost an agent, and since our department was created over 50 years ago we've only killed one perpetrator.

Sure, knocking and identifying ourselves will give them time to destroy evidence on occasion - but if we're at the wrong house (easy to do when none of the trailers have numbers on them ) we find out BEFORE a firefight breaks out.

this is the type of policing I expect and happliy pay for.

Geno
December 17, 2007, 05:21 PM
Fellow THR Members:

There is some legitimate discussion to be had here, but we seem to be running off-track. Sarcasm will just get the thread closed. Let's have some THR conversation.

Doc2005

chipperi
December 17, 2007, 05:29 PM
This just makes me "GULP" my address is 359 .... rd Lot 13, there is a 373 .... rd lot 13 as well. .... rd is kinda dogleg shaped so it appears to be the same road but it is not. I cannot tell you over the last 5 years how many times I have had the Sullivan County Sheriffs Office pounding on my door looking for the moron that lives at 373. I have complained time and time again to the SCSO and they always send me a form apology. There is a sign in my front door that reads "Third shift worker don't knock...and in the event you are too stupid to read the mail boxes this is 359 not 373!" Did this help you might ask...Nope I still get cops collectors repo men ups dhl fedex even the damn mail carriers get it wrong. This really makes me think how bad a shtf situation could be. Is the guy wearing all black a cop or a criminal? If I see a gun and don't hear "police!" I cant say I wouldn't do the same thing.

rufus1
December 17, 2007, 05:37 PM
I really would like to know how this ended that night. I am very supprised this guy is still alive.
I mean, they (SWAT) broke into the wrong house, and then went upstairs and took fire. Then they shot back and missed but then didn't kill the guy when they caught him? If they took fire in the stairs, returned fire and missed, I am sure they went up the rest of the stairs and caught the homeowner at gunpoint. I have never heard of an incident where any 'assumed' perp fired at the cops point blank and was left alive. How did they know at that split second that the guy shooting at them wasn't the bad guy and finish him off in an upstairs room?

ilbob
December 17, 2007, 05:39 PM
I wonder if they will ever tell the story or if they will just pay off to keep it quiet and we will never know what really happened.

MNJack762
December 17, 2007, 05:40 PM
My twelve year old son, who is reading this over my shoulder, thinks that the police department better offer this Vang guy a job ASAP as he is the only one who seems to be able to shoot under pressure.:eek:

MJ

ilbob
December 17, 2007, 05:51 PM
I really would like to know how this ended that night. I am very supprised this guy is still alive.
I mean, they (SWAT) broke into the wrong house, and then went upstairs and took fire. Then they shot back and missed but then didn't kill the guy when they caught him? If they took fire in the stairs, returned fire and missed, I am sure they went up the rest of the stairs and caught the homeowner at gunpoint. I have never heard of an incident where any 'assumed' perp fired at the cops point blank and was left alive. How did they know at that split second that the guy shooting at them wasn't the bad guy and finish him off in an upstairs room?
Interesting question. Wonder if we will ever find out?

My guess is they decided going up the stairs was a bad idea and left expeditiously, and eventually identified themselves properly and were let in without further incident.

AKCOP
December 17, 2007, 06:00 PM
As a retired officer and COP I believe a big part of the problem is too many new cops, make that all cops, watch too much TV and movies depicting
BS police tactics. It scared me when we would interview applicants and they truly believed what they saw on TV was how it really was. Don't know how many arguments I got into with the State Academy idiots who stressed more weapon and tactics than common sense. I mean it goes all the way to the highest agencies, need we recall Waco, Ruby Ridge. In both cases a phone call to the suspect probably would have resulted an incident free arrest.
When I retired I figured it would only get worse before it got better and it sure seems to be going that way. When I took part instructing in CCW classes I always walked away feeling like the citizens had a better handle on the use of deadly force than most officers driving the beat.
If you ever get the chance to talk to an officer ask him what the state staute say about the use of deadly force, see if he can recite what the law is, you'd be surprised how many have no idea. I can tell you that every officer that worked for me knew what the law was. I told them they better be able to answer when a citizen asks because I encouraged citizens to do just that.

Millwright
December 17, 2007, 06:01 PM
To me this story has a rancid odor........

Not to say anyone kicking in a door in the wee hours that gets shot has any reason to complain afterward - regardless of what paper he's carrying or how many times or loud he hollers some jargon.....IMO these "no knock raids" are just excuses of convenience for PDs, "engineered" at command, or higher, levels. I suspect the street cops doing the deed hate the concept. >MW

mpmarty
December 17, 2007, 06:04 PM
The cops might have known going in they had the wrong place for several reasons:
1. They were ABLE to easily kick in the door. No steel plating or reinforced jambs.
2. They were NOT met by multiple pit bulls, dobies or other assorted fauna.
3. The folks inside had not been forewarned by perimeter alarms and been expecting them.

Most of the druggies are very serious about security and such "no knock" warrants only exacerbate their paranoia.

ilbob
December 17, 2007, 06:15 PM
In both cases a phone call to the suspect probably would have resulted an incident free arrest.
That only works if an incident free arrest is the desired result. I am pretty much convinced that in most cases these kinds of raids are shows of force meant primarily to intimidate, rather than as any kind of legitimate law enforcement tactic. The IRS started this kind of nonsense, and other agencies copied it.

KelVarnson
December 17, 2007, 06:18 PM
Those responsible for faulty intel and kicking in the wrong door will be reprimanded and punished according to department policy up to and including termination.

How about "up to and including incarceration"?

cassandrasdaddy
December 17, 2007, 06:19 PM
"I have never heard of an incident where any 'assumed' perp fired at the cops point blank and was left alive."

maybe you just don't listen well enough to hear..... i know of a case where a punk gunned down 2 cops in the police station and was captured alive to dso his time and commit crimes again

ilbob
December 17, 2007, 06:24 PM
I have never heard of an incident where any assumed perp fired at the cops point blank and was left alive.
It must happen since there are a fair number of cop killers/shooters in jail and that have been executed over the years. Maybe you are thinking of a TV show.

Eagle103
December 17, 2007, 06:39 PM
This is the same PD that fired Jeanne Assam for lying. It looks like they should have kept her on so they'd have at least one cop who can shoot. Let's see what happens to whoever is resposible for this disaster. I hope Mr. Khang gets a good lawyer to see this through.

armoredman
December 17, 2007, 07:00 PM
Nice touch, Eagle! I am glad nobody was injured, but I do hope at the minimum the homeowner is compensated for damages, and the entire incident investigated to the fullest degree, OPENLY.

Hardtarget
December 17, 2007, 07:23 PM
This happens every once in a while. I've told my family to expect me to die because any one can yell POLICE and flash some blue lights as the door is kicked in. Thing is, I know I'm NOT doing anything to bring police through my door. Things would get ugly fast...with no way to back out. :(

Mark.

mekender
December 17, 2007, 07:25 PM
the biggest problem with lawsuits like the one that im sure will take place is that they dont punish anyone... sure you can sue and get potentially millions... but all of that cash comes from the tax payers of the city... the police department, city, DA etc dont pay the judgments... the taxpayer does... its just like suing a school because an administrator gets abusive... the school might loose the suit... but the payment comes from the taxpayers, so the school board feels no loss... there damn sure needs to be more accountably

akodo
December 17, 2007, 07:33 PM
the local radios have been carrying news on this, including minnesota public radio which has actually been fair and balanced.

Early pre 6am morning reporting (prob before official voices could squeltch it) included the facts that

A. It appears the address on the warrant was wrong, that's how they ended up at Khang's house

B. The reliability of the confiential informant is being checked as well.

here is somethign similar http://http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2007/12/16/mpls_shot/ (http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2007/12/16/mpls_shot/)

There was also an incident where a minneapolis cop ran a red, did an illegal Uturn ran up on the sidewalk a bit, and almost hid a pedestrian, who flipped him the bird and spit on him, so the cop got out and started beating him until someone called 911 and other police showed up and pulled him off.


I won't go out and say that there is absolutely no reason ever for a no-knock warrant, but such warrants should not be handed out just to help the cops preserve evidence. They should only be given out when there are hostages involved, or if the police truely believe there will be a serious gunfight and need the element of suprise. Then of course these warrants should be double and triple checked.

Second, this is more CI's lying and making up false info to lessen their own charges, and getting away with it my gut is telling me

and yes, it doesn't say much about the minneapolis police department, but then that is no suprise. They are a crazy bunch. Check out this incident where one Minneapolis cop bazes away at another cop basically because he is asian.

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_cut/archive/2007/12/the_fight_for_duy_ngos_life.shtml

There have been attacks against naked pregnant women

http://www.charityadvantage.com/CUAPB/2-25-03Newsletter.asp

Checkman
December 17, 2007, 07:42 PM
And this is precisely why I've avoided narcotic investigations and SWAT duty during the past 7+ years I've been a cop.

When I was a detective I worked fraud investigations. The two times (during 4 years of working fraud cases) that I had a search warrant I checked and doublechecked my address info, to include photos of the house which I showed to the judge during the warrant hearing. Both times I got the bad guys.

The young guys want to be cowboys. I however intend to make it to my pension - thank you.

Sistema1927
December 17, 2007, 07:56 PM
And this is precisely why I've avoided narcotic investigations ...

No-Knock Warrants, courtesy of the War on Drugs (tm).

Srigs
December 17, 2007, 08:13 PM
The cops need to do their homework. No knock warrants on people who have never been arrested is idiotic. :cuss:

They should get sued for millions. That is the only way it will stop... Maybe charge the cops with attempted murder might stop them also. :fire:

coylh
December 17, 2007, 08:16 PM
Sounds like the home owner might as well have used a paintball gun.

TexasRifleman
December 17, 2007, 08:18 PM
Sounds like the home owner might as well have used a paintball gun.

He's alive and the illegal attack on his home was stopped.

I'd say it worked out just about as well as one could hope.

It's tough to make your home defense plans around multiple intruders with body armor.

ConstitutionCowboy
December 17, 2007, 08:19 PM
Obviously, this house was never staked out to find out who lived there or what was supposedly going on in the house.

Mr. Khang and family should come out of this very rich.

Woody

If you want security, buy a gun. If you want freedom, carry it. If you want longevity, learn how to use it. B.E.Wood

Rob62
December 17, 2007, 08:24 PM
I wonder if his shotgun was Vang "Comped" - Bwwaaahhaaaaaaa :evil::neener:

(http://www.vangcomp.com/Home.html)

OAKTOWN
December 17, 2007, 08:39 PM
I would guess, there are several things going on here. First would be shoddy police work. Second would be shoddy police work. Thrid would be; "Hey, we get to use all our bad*** ninja cop gear Homeland Security bought for us. We got MP5s, body armour, helmets, nightvision... let's go kick some ***!"

I figure when they kicked in the door and announced (if they actually did), Mr. Kang was probably fast asleep, which means he never heard the warning. Even if he did hear it, being up two flights of stairs, it probably just sounded like shouting and someone busting his door down. Coming up the stairs he probably didn't see anything but their flashlights and couldn't tell who was behind them. Fortunately no one died as a result of this idiotic policy. No knocks are a recipe for dead cops and citizens.

jaholder1971
December 17, 2007, 08:50 PM
My old man spent 31 years in Law Enforcement and never liked no-knock warrants. He said they were a tool for certain situations but said the old school Vice and Narcotics cops were always able to get their man and get their evidence/dope without them in the past.

never_retreat
December 17, 2007, 09:01 PM
And this is why I keep my rifle next to the bed NOT a shot gun.
Everyone of those idiots should be fired. All the way up the chain of command.:cuss:

Old Dog
December 17, 2007, 09:04 PM
Have we covered any new ground in this thread? I think not. There's a consensus here; it's pretty obvious, so why does everyone keep piling on? Just curious.

xd9fan
December 17, 2007, 09:20 PM
If I were in charge of determining the outcome - The homeowner would not be charged with any crime. The police department would pay for the damage done to his property (30 shots!?) and will be liable for a civil suit. Those responsible for faulty intel and kicking in the wrong door will be reprimanded and punished according to department policy up to and including termination.

No knock raids MUST stop.

Couldnt agree more I hope the family sues the dept's a$$ off.

The damn dept cares more about what an "informent" tells them then the Rights of law abidding citizens.:cuss:

What measures does the Dept have are in place to protect against wrong info???:cuss:

How the hell are no knocks, Constitutional???

akodo
December 17, 2007, 09:26 PM
becaue piles are fun

average_shooter
December 17, 2007, 09:44 PM
...why does everyone keep piling on?
becaue piles are fun

Who was it that said; If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention

cobrian45
December 17, 2007, 10:15 PM
Hmm.. In Texas, I wonder how the Castle Doctrine would fit into this situation had it occurred here.

c.latrans
December 17, 2007, 10:30 PM
Have we covered any new ground in this thread? I think not. There's a consensus here; it's pretty obvious, so why does everyone keep piling on? Just curious.
__________________
Will


The piling on keeps occuring because ........well...........incidents like this keep occuring.

crashm1
December 17, 2007, 10:42 PM
You can bet the city won't just up and apologize for this 'misunderstanding' and offer to fix up his house.

Not in Mpls they won't. The Mpls police dept has done this sort of thing (wrong address) before on a semi regular basis. They seem to have a culture that encourages aggression when dealing with citizens. They have even promoted a guy with several excessive force complaints that have cost the city millions to head one of the precincts (<that looks all wrong even after spell checking).
I'm getting tired of the policehelping me feel "secure". I think I'd rather be insecure and free of them on the whole.

The Freeholder
December 17, 2007, 10:52 PM
No one's asked the question, so I guess I'll be stupid (and maybe even on topic). As I understand it, police are taught to shoot until the threat is neutralized. As we all may agreee, ther threat is considered neutralized when it's bleeding on the ground and no long doing whatever the threatening actions.

So how in the bleeding dickens did Mr. Vang escape without some new bodily orifices? Has anyone heard?

mekender
December 17, 2007, 11:10 PM
im guessing that during the raid, the cops continued to shout that they were police and the victim decided to yell back that he would surrender...

BitterBeerFace
December 17, 2007, 11:29 PM
I'm attempting to formulate a couple letters... do any of you have links to info about the guy who killed a chief of police's son during a raid on the wrong house?

SDDL-UP
December 17, 2007, 11:31 PM
Don't go kicking in the wrong door!

I don't blame anyone for shooting at an intruder, especially one that is kicking in your door. I'm glad no one was hurt but if they were it would be 100% the fault of the SWAT team. Even if he'd killed two of them it would have been a tragic accident, but one the SWAT team is responsible for not the homeowner.

It always amazes me how many rounds can be fired during such an incident and no one gets hit. 20-30 rounds by the "best of the best" in the police force and thanfully they didn't hit anyone.

siglite
December 17, 2007, 11:33 PM
Hitting an Asian wearing Pajamas has proven extraordinarily difficult at times...

I stopped reading this thread at that one right there. I couldn't see the screen... laughing too hard...

ROMAK IV
December 17, 2007, 11:45 PM
Two similiar incidents, both happened in Fort Worth Texas.

Situation 1. An elderly man, black and of modest means was misidentified as having the residence that was a Drug House. Police break in, wake him up, in his surprise and panic, he grabs for his gun, and is shot dead by the police.

Situation 2: Drug dealers are inside a convenience store, when the police decide to make the arrest. Their uniforms aren't marked, and they don't bother to tell the owners about the arrest. The clerk, related to the owner, sees the police coming in, thinks it's a robbery, and shoots one of the officers, to which the round enters through the armpit area of a policewoman, where the vest isn't covering her and paralzes her. The clerk isn't charged and FWPD revisits their arrest policy.

The police in this intance in MN, were very lucky. The family of the Elderly Black man didn't make a major scene, which could have been turned easily into a racial incident. These kinds of raids or arrests, are very risky for both police and the public, and usually for the the members of the public involved.

230RN
December 17, 2007, 11:46 PM
Have we covered any new ground in this thread? I think not. There's a consensus here; it's pretty obvious, so why does everyone keep piling on? Just curious.

I was going to say outrage, but average shooter beat me to it:

Who was it that said; If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention.

I don't think it's really a question of cop-bashing, but of system-bashing (like compliant judges and magistrates who rubber-stamp the requests for warrants).

And the rage is well-justified. Let it flow for a while. Some good information has come out of this thread.

After all, righteous anger is a good magickal tool.

ilbob
December 18, 2007, 12:04 AM
The only thing that will stop this kind of stuff is some real punishment for hitting the wrong house. make it a state law - if you hit the wrong house for any reason, everyone on the team, and the whole chain of command up to the chief, gets 30 days suspension w/o pay and the police department involved pays $1,000,000 each to the victims out of their normal budget.

if they used information from paid informants its 60 days, and $2,000,000.

Dienekes
December 18, 2007, 12:09 AM
I don't like drug abuse and I think people who use them are dumb as rocks--but neither do I like the "war on drugs" which must be all of 30 years old now. Before I retired I used to get sucked into going along on drug raids now and then. Never cared for it, and towards the end I made it clear that I would go if ordered to but my volunteering days were over.

One of the reasons was that my own limited research showed that more cops got killed on these things by other cops than by bad guys. (Anybody ever see the old Gary Larson--"The Far Side"--cartoon with a stack of horses, men, and guns, with the line, "I tell yuh, you just can't throw a posse together." ) It wasn't far off.

There is an old line from Nietzche to the effect that you need to be careful in fighting monsters that you do not become one yourself.

All in all, no-knocks are bad business in a free society.

average_shooter
December 18, 2007, 12:15 AM
...neither do I like the "war on drugs" which must be all of 30 years old now.

Heckuvalot older than that. Started back when Chinamen were working on building these new-fangled things called railroads, maybe before. Their use of opiates was seen as abnormal and that part of their culture was looked upon with disdain.

Then came Mexicans with their ditch weed. Can't have anybody taking anything that makes them feel better after a long day working hard labor.

So, out of racism came drug prohibition laws. Same as with gun laws, marriage licenses, and voting poll-taxes/literacy tests.

Redtail
December 18, 2007, 12:28 AM
That's why cops should be cops and stop imitating the military. Although, I agree no knock arrest is not a good idea, it should only be use discreetly.

Just recently, here in Oahu a house got robbed and they thought they were feds, the guys are wearing ski mask and a shirt with dea on it, found later that they are robbers.

ArfinGreebly
December 18, 2007, 12:28 AM
Who wants to take some of this outrage and direct it toward activism?

Yup, system sucks.

Yup, it endangers cops and ordinary citizens.

Maybe the guy wins a big suit. He gets rich, the taxpayers foot the bill, the system stays in place. After all, the politicians who came up with this brilliant idea aren't having to answer for it.

So, whaddaya think, guys?

Who wants to formulate something that we, as a body, can actually DO?

Remember, the cops aren't making the rules. I'm gonna guess that the ones who took the hits are pretty frosted at the sewage duty they got.

Honchos sending blue dudes out to play soldier on unverified warrants could use a wake-up call.

So . . . where do we get the alarm clock?

mikec
December 18, 2007, 12:32 AM
What is going to happen to this guy?

Blue Wall of Silence goes up...

Perjury occurs to cover up incompetence....

Homeowner charged.....


Same stuff.... different day

Actually about five or six years back something like this happened in Baltimore, except it wasn't a SWAT team, just a narcotics bust. The homeowner hit several officers with several .45acp rounds. All involved survived.

On the evening news the butthead mayor, now our governor, was proclaiming that no one will shoot an B'more cop and get away with it. After several weeks there was a short blurb in the paper about how the police screwed up and no changes against the guy. No mention about any $$ changing hands or any officers being disciplined. If I was a betting man I would guess that some officer will never get promoted again.

Kim
December 18, 2007, 12:32 AM
The USSC is to blame along with politicians. They let the no knock raids continue. I thinkif a group was formed that the government could be petioned to stop no knock raids unless someones life was in danger. If the poice can not get a drug dealer or anyone else without a no knowck I do not care. I think we deserve to live secure in our castles (homes) and kicking down doors is dangerous. Looks like a activist type person on lawyer could get the familes that this has happened too and get a congressional investiogation and hearing on this mess and get it stopped. It is dangerous and scary as heck.

ilbob
December 18, 2007, 01:33 AM
It is very hard to get the courts of legislatures to do anything that is seen as anti-LE, and that is how such an effort will be spun. LE agencies will lie and claim it is about officer safety, when it is really about intimidation, and maybe not losing evidence that they probably don't need anyway. If they have enough to go for a no-knock, they probably don't really need the evidence that they might get from one in the first place.

You might get some street cops on your side. A lot of them probably don't like the militarization of police either. I'd bet a lot of them actually do want to "Protect and Serve", but it is pretty hard to do so when a very public chunk of your own agency is mostly into intimidation. But they also have paychecks to protect, and in most LE agencies if you publicly don't toe the line, your paycheck will eventually be in jeopardy.

Realistically, unless we abandon the war on drugs, nothing probably will change. And way too many people have a financial stake in it to make that real easy.

mekender
December 18, 2007, 02:46 AM
if you hit the wrong house for any reason, everyone on the team, and the whole chain of command up to the chief, gets 30 days suspension w/o pay and the police department involved pays $1,000,000 each to the victims out of their normal budget.

if they used information from paid informants its 60 days, and $2,000,000.

financial penalties arent any punishment... the departments get their money from the tax payers and since the cops are kicking in the doors of law abiding tax payers, taking their money to pay for mistakes isnt a real problem for them...

Roswell 1847
December 18, 2007, 03:10 AM
So, out of racism came drug prohibition laws.
Not that simple. As long as only Chinamen smoked Opium the White Folk didn't give a rats patoot. It was after so many fine minds in White society had been destroyed by the drug that society clamped down on it.

The First intravenous syringe was created by a Scottish physician in the late 1850's, before then powdered morphine was sprinkled in open wounds, about one year later his wife died as the first intravenous mophine addict to overdose.

Some Racism was involved in crackdowns on Pot and Coke but they came along following sensational crimes involving cocaine.

I have no use for pot, but I can see how it could be more beneficial than prescription anti-depressants, and a friend used it for glaucoma.
Also as an "Herb Bearing Seed" its use is aproved for man.
Sinsemilla being an artificially neutered plant bears no seed and its elevated THC levels might be dangerous to those who have unlimited access to it.

Just about any drug can have benefits if used wisely, even poisons in tiny doses are useful. Pure Nicotine was the first muscle relaxer used in abdominal surgery, but continued tiny doses from smoking tobacco weaken the heart muscles and a pinhead of the pure nicotine kills in minutes.
Curarae is used to control the seizures caused by radiation poisoning. But I can't see these dangerous substances being allowed to be bought over the counter.

Meth speaks for itself, the worst wartime atrocities have been traced to German use of Meth to juice up their SS Troopers, and similar drugs are used to brainwash suicide bombers.

doberman
December 18, 2007, 03:55 AM
2. They were NOT met by multiple pit bulls, dobies or other assorted fauna.


*growl*

I don't appreciate that. Dobies are the most intellegent and sensetive of all breeds that require constant attention and love. Not something that is a priority of your average dope dealer.

Still fighting the stereotype of the Doberman after all these years I see.

The Doberman is no more an Evil Black Dog than our AR's are Evil Black Rifles!

:D:D:D:D

Carry on.

brentn
December 18, 2007, 04:00 AM
Why in the hell is this ok, and then you have hurricane katrina victims with armed guards storming their house and taking away their firearms. If any of those in the katrina resistance shot an officer, they'd be brought to jail with charges indefinitly it seems...

***?

Old Dog
December 18, 2007, 04:04 AM
Well, since the first "outrage" remark came in response to my post questioning the need to pile on ... I'll respond. No, I'm not outraged in the slightest. Pragmatic, yes. In point of fact, I am a stauch supporter of SWAT/SRT. No-knock warrants? Not a supporter. But, stuff happens. Y'all accept innocent deaths as unfortunate collateral damage that accompanies a free society and the right to bear arms, but one law enforcement screw-up, and man, you're all over it ... A bit hypocritical from my point of view. Given the pretty large numbers of SWAT operations occurring daily throughout the country, I'm pretty satisifed the percentages are working out okay. Anyway, the point is, don't hold government to a stricter standard than you hold yourselves and your fellow gunowners. Stupid happens, and always more often in groups than individually. Save the self-righteous indignation for situations where the intent was actually wrongful.

Blue Wall of Silence goes up...

Perjury occurs to cover up incompetence....

Homeowner charged.....

Same stuff.... different day Sigh. Amazed it took so long for someone to say this. Another psychic chimes in.

HKUSP45C
December 18, 2007, 07:45 AM
im guessing that during the raid, the cops continued to shout that they were police and the victim decided to yell back that he would surrender...

I don't know. I've been in a small apartment bedroom when a .45 handgun was ND'd. I couldn't hear a thing for quite some time and frankly it felt like I'd been punched.

In an enclosed space, o'dark thirty, mulitiple armored and "geared up" asailants (likely screaming at the top of their lungs), 2 shotgun blasts, the victim doesn't speak English and the cops are pounding 20-30 rounds back at the guy .....

It doesn't strike me as a recipe for "discourse" in the least.

Deanimator
December 18, 2007, 08:04 AM
But, stuff happens.
...until it happens to somebody YOU care about.

An otherwise intelligent friend of mine once opined that such things were "a cost of doing business". Without going into detail here, I replied that if those costs continued to rise, they might end up being spread around more evenly.

Home invasion is a strict liability offense at my place, with pretty much one penalty, a face full of whatever's handy, be it .44 Magnum or .30-06.

I don't sell drugs. I don't gamble, nor facilitate the gambling of others. I don't do ANYTHING that would justify having my door kicked in. At the same time, I've got a pretty long series of documented death threats from neo-Nazis. That means I don't have the luxury of assuming that armed men kicking my door in mean well.

Anybody who kicks the door in gets shot... a LOT. The police have no duty to protect individuals. They DO have a duty not to recklessly endanger innocent parties. If harm comes to them while recklessly endangering someone, they have only themselves to blame. It's their job to know what they're doing and to do it with competence and professionalism. NOT doing it with competence and professionalism has consequences. I guarantee you those consequences will NOT accrue solely to me.

plexreticle
December 18, 2007, 08:19 AM
Seems to be a weekly event; the cops kicking down the wrong door.

The police put themselves and the public endanger by doing smash and grab raids. Even if they have the right house it's not worth the risk most of the time.

Gator
December 18, 2007, 08:28 AM
No knock raids MUST stop.

Agreed. It is a disgrace that such things can happen in this country.

Boomerang
December 18, 2007, 08:40 AM
It seems that a lot of people have an idea that Mr.Vang was not trained and was lucky that he didn't get shot.
We don't know the layout of his house, or how long it took the B&E to occur, or if the police were announcing their presence before or after the door was broken. I choose to believe that he may have been properly trained and took a defensive position, complete with appropriate cover.
I don't see that there is any real information that the police were not good shots.

ilbob
December 18, 2007, 09:49 AM
if you hit the wrong house for any reason, everyone on the team, and the whole chain of command up to the chief, gets 30 days suspension w/o pay and the police department involved pays $1,000,000 each to the victims out of their normal budget.

if they used information from paid informants its 60 days, and $2,000,000.

financial penalties arent any punishment... the departments get their money from the tax payers and since the cops are kicking in the doors of law abiding tax payers, taking their money to pay for mistakes isnt a real problem for them...
I think they will notice it if they have to cut back to pay for their mistakes.

And if those involved have to take a 30 day unpaid vacation, they will remember the next time not to use fake information provided by stoolies.

ilbob
December 18, 2007, 09:56 AM
Save the self-righteous indignation for situations where the intent was actually wrongful.

And you know the intent was not wrongful in this case how? The cops have already admitted to using what they call "bad" information. That's bureaucrat speak for fake information in case you don't know.

If I celebrate New Years Eve by shooting up in the air on and a bullet lands in someone, I should have to take the consequences. Why are you so willing to let LE off the hook for something far worse?

TallPine
December 18, 2007, 09:57 AM
Who wants to formulate something that we, as a body, can actually DO?


We could start "minding our own business" and stop the War on People Using Some Drugs. But that has already been heavily discussed here on THR, and the general consensus always seems to be that drugs are "bad" and thus must be banned. :(

If an idea cannot gain traction here on this forum then it has little chance out in the general population.

Owens
December 18, 2007, 10:05 AM
According to the OP, it is only assumed that this was a no-knock. Could have been. Could have not been. Language barrier? Possible. Misunderstanding? possible.

Too many questions remain unanswered and likely won't be.

TexasRifleman
December 18, 2007, 10:13 AM
A little more information coming out.... still no charges anywhere.

Please note the bold type.....

http://wcco.com/local/minneapolis.police.officers.2.612893.html


Officers On Paid Leave After Raid Goes Awry
MINNEAPOLIS (AP) ―
Seven Minneapolis police officers were on paid administrative leave Monday as investigators try to determine what went wrong with a raid on a non-suspect's home that ended with two of the officers getting shot but nobody injured, authorities said.

Vang Khang grabbed his hunting gun to protect himself, his wife and six children when they heard someone burst through the back door early Sunday, Khang said Monday night. He fired three shots, hitting two members of the SWAT team, but they were unhurt thanks to their bulletproof vests and helmets. Officers returned fire, but nobody in the house was injured. Police released Khang after taking his statement.

Lt. Amelia Huffman, the head of the department's homicide unit, said the officers went to the house listed in the search warrant they were executing, but it turned out that they were acting on information from a source that was wrong. The source had provided other information that was accurate and officers had nothing to make them question its veracity, she said.

"Clearly there was something that happened that prevented this particular source from getting this address correct," she said.

Huffman declined to say much about the underlying case, but said it was generated by the department's Violent Offender Task Force, which she said typically handles drug and gang crimes.

Khang, 34, and his wife, Yee Moua, told reporters Monday night that they thought intruders had broken into their home.

Moua said she was watching television on the main floor when she heard voices and then windows breaking. She ran upstairs to tell her husband.

Khang said he grabbed the shotgun from a closet and fired three shots out his bedroom door. When his sons yelled at him that the intruders were actually police, he put down his gun and put his hands in the air.

"The whole family is badly shaken and still trying to understand what happened," Moua said. She and Khang showed reporters five broken windows and 22 bullet holes.

All six of the family's children, who are between the ages of 3 and 15, were home at the time.

The separate criminal and internal investigations are continuing and nobody was in custody Monday, she said. The administrative leaves for the seven officers are standard in cases of officer-involved shootings.

Deanimator
December 18, 2007, 10:31 AM
I think they will notice it if they have to cut back to pay for their mistakes.

The way to do that is to pass legislation which mandates that any settlements or judgements arising from such cases MUST come from the department's OPERATING BUDGET. If they had to lay off personnel and sell vehicles and other equipment to meet their obligations, the cavalier attitude which some police officials display toward the property, safety and lives of the public would disappear over night.

highorder
December 18, 2007, 11:35 AM
Realistically, unless we abandon the war on drugs, nothing probably will change. And way too many people have a financial stake in it to make that real easy.

the bureaucracy NEEDS the war on drugs; otherwise, many folks will be looking for jobs.

Richmond
December 18, 2007, 01:30 PM
http://www.startribune.com/local/12578176.html

Minneapolis police apologize for raid that led to gunfire

By DAVID CHANEN, Star Tribune

Last update: December 18, 2007 - 12:52 AM

Sunday's high-risk search by Minneapolis police of a house on the city's North Side was to be one of the last pieces in a long-term investigation focused on violent gang members.

But minutes after a SWAT team entered the house about 12:30 a.m., things went awry. The homeowner, a father of six, thinking the intruders were burglars, fired at them through a bedroom wall. He hit two officers, one in the back and one in the head, but both were uninjured because they were wearing protective armor. Police shot back, but did not hit him.

Hours later, police officials were apologizing to the homeowner, Vang Khang, admitting that they had erred based on bad information from an informant.

That informant was the alleged victim of a violent crime at a house, which is in the 1300 block of Logan Avenue N.

Police said they had no reason to believe the information was inaccurate. They had the right address on the warrant, but the house wasn't occupied by anybody they wanted.

The case will be reviewed by the Hennepin County attorney's office, but authorities said it's doubtful that Khang will be charged with any crime.

"We've apologized to the family, and the city is making every effort to repair any damages to his home as quickly as possible," said Lt. Amelia Huffman, head of the homicide unit.

Huffman's unit, as well as the internal affairs unit, also will review the case.

Gang members sought

The search warrant police were working with was part of an investigation by the department's Violent Offender Task Force, which typically goes after the most violent gang members and drug dealers. In the past two years, the investigation has dismantled at least three violent gangs, with several suspects arrested and many weapons seized.

The warrant was typical for this kind of investigation, Huffman said. It was designated high-risk and "no knock" because officers expected to find weapons, which is why a SWAT team was involved.

When police entered, the officers called out, "Police!" as they searched the home's first floor. They didn't find anybody, so went to the second floor. At a small landing at the top of the stairs, they again shouted, "Police!" Huffman said.

Shots came through the walls and doors as officers searched two bedrooms, police said. It was Khang, 34, shooting from a third bedroom.

There were children in the other bedrooms, and the officers quickly realized there was a language barrier. The older children were able to communicate to their father that police were in the house and to stop shooting, Huffman said.

All six of the family's children, who range in age from 3 to 15, were home at the time.

Khang's wife, Yee Moua, said she was watching TV on the first floor when she heard voices and windows breaking. She ran upstairs to tell her husband.

Khang said he grabbed a gun from a closet and fired three shots. When his sons yelled at him that the intruders were police, he put down his gun and put his hands in the air.

"The whole family is badly shaken and still trying to understand what happened," Moua said.

After police interviewed Khang's family, it became clear they had no connection to the case, Huffman said. But the address listed on the warrant was the one police had gotten from the informant.

"This house was part of a package of very credible information that resulted in other successful enforcement actions," she said. "This was the end of a chain of things, and there was no reason to question the credibility of the information."

All relieved no one was hurt

On Monday, officers involved in the shootout were on paid administrative leave, standard in such cases.

Meanwhile, the Khangs' back door and several windows were boarded up.

Ron Edwards, co-chairman of the Police Community Relations Council, questioned what police do when informants pass on bad information.

"It wasn't a very pleasant situation up there," he said. "I'm glad police had all that protective armor on. With so many children inside, it was lucky nobody was injured."

The Associated Press contributed to this report. David Chanen 612-673-4465


Local news stations were covering this heavily last night, including an interview with Vang Khang through an interpreter (he is Hmong) and a walk through the home, showing angles and the like. From the damage to the drywall from the shotgun, I would guess that he was using a game load, consistent with what he said - he grabbed a hunting gun from the closet and ran to defend his family amid a lot of noise and furor.

My opinion of the press coverage was that the overall tone was "how the hell did this happen to this family?".

A quote on the Fox affiliate, attributed to an police department spokesperson (unamed) was that they were "looking into the possibility that a step was skipped in the warrant process."

mekender
December 18, 2007, 02:14 PM
financial penalties arent any punishment... the departments get their money from the tax payers and since the cops are kicking in the doors of law abiding tax payers, taking their money to pay for mistakes isnt a real problem for them...

I think they will notice it if they have to cut back to pay for their mistakes.

And if those involved have to take a 30 day unpaid vacation, they will remember the next time not to use fake information provided by stoolies.

The way to do that is to pass legislation which mandates that any settlements or judgements arising from such cases MUST come from the department's OPERATING BUDGET. If they had to lay off personnel and sell vehicles and other equipment to meet their obligations, the cavalier attitude which some police officials display toward the property, safety and lives of the public would disappear over night.

ok, first of all, a starting year officer makes on average about $28k... so you want to take some of the money in their budget?

ok what happens when there arent enough officers on the street? or they dont have enough cars to respond on a busy friday night?

less money for training... that will cost more lives...

the PD here already shares cars among officers... i wonder how much that reduces the lifespan of the cruser?

what happens when they have to choose between money for tazer batteries and money for duty weapon ammo? (i bet they choose the ammo)

what about money to buy more gloves, flex cuffs, replacement lights for the flasher bars, roadside drug and alcohol test kits, blank traffic tickets, pepper spray, first aid kits, body armor, road flares, etc etc...

cutting their money is not the solution... i agree that there should be accountability... but cutting the money to a department will hurt the community much more than it would hurt the department... most cops could make more money doing private security... dont think they dont know that... and please remember that most cops are decent, hard working people just like you an i... they dont want to have a hassle at work, nor do they look for reasons to cause trouble... most of them just want to go home at the end of their shift just like most of you at your jobs...

Deanimator
December 18, 2007, 02:33 PM
cutting their money is not the solution
It's a lot better solution than soaking the taxpayers (including the victims) of police mis or malfeasance.

When police departments feel no tangible pain for incompetence or misconduct, you see things like this: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-071205cops-htmlstory,1,5301758.htmlstory

It's very apparent that the Chicago PD is perfectly content to go its merry way, unperturbed by the mind boggling settlements and judgements against it for wrongful shootings, including homicides. No one is ever punished meaningfully, and no forceful corrective measures are ever applied to the department as a whole.

Some police departments need to be taught in no uncertain terms that actions have consequences. If a citizen gets liquored up and runs into somebody on the road or if he kicks in his neighbor's door and starts shooting because he hears screaming, only to discover that his now deceased neighbor was watching "Saw III" on HBO, nobody's going to do anything but sneer at his complaints about the size of the judgement against him, regardless of whether he can feed his family afterward.

I offered a solution. If you don't like it, let's hear yours... that doesn't simply amount to saying, "**** happens." and looking the other way. Clearly sueing some cities [and WINNING] has absolutely ZERO effect on police conduct and competence.

03Shadowbob
December 18, 2007, 02:41 PM
He probably was not using slugs as neither officer was injured after being hit in the back and the head. Probably more like birdshot or maybe buckshot.

ilbob
December 18, 2007, 02:58 PM
part of a package of very credible information

Cop speak for "a paid stoolie told us". In other words, someone who has no credibility at all. BTW, "paid" can mean money, or leniency in this context.

ok, first of all, a starting year officer makes on average about $28k... so you want to take some of the money in their budget?

ok what happens when there arent enough officers on the street? or they dont have enough cars to respond on a busy friday night?
They will learn to make do with less, as all of us have to do when our budget is cut. Maybe you start by getting rid of all the department owned cars used as personal vehicles by the chief and his cronies. Unless the punishment hurts, nothing will change.

I would be willing to bet after a few hot shots and their bosses get a month off w/o pay, they will not be so cavalier about the details the next time.

I'd be willing to bet most departments with more than a few hundred officers probably spend far more than that on PR measures. Start with them. Police departments don't need spin meisters. If they just tell the truth they are better off long run anyway.

mekender
December 18, 2007, 03:13 PM
It's a lot better solution than soaking the taxpayers (including the victims) of police mis or malfeasance.

why is this so hard to understand...

a police department is an extension of the government... the government is not capable of owning assets or finances... assets and finances belong to the people... all funds that the government uses are TAKEN from the tax payers at gunpoint... since all of their funds come from the tax payers, suing them does nothing more than force the tax payers to pay for the departments mistakes... its not much better than a socialist redistribution of wealth... basically, agents of society do something wrong, so society is forced to pay those that were wronged...

this is the same problem that happens when a school employee or campus gets found liable for an injury or rights violation... they are told to pay x amount of millions of dollars... because the school is a government body, its assets and properties belong to and are funded involuntarily by taxpayers... those dollars used to pay the settlements come from the tax payers

if you think that taxes aren't taken at gunpoint, try not paying your taxes... the guys that show up to collect your unpaid taxes do in fact carry guns...

again, financial punishments don't do anything other than hurt the community which has already been hurt by the initial action... I'm not saying that the victim shouldn't get financial compensation, they absolutely should, but said compensation is not an effective punishment for a government body...

and if you think that the police unions would let their members become personally liable for mistakes like that (weather malicious or not), then you have some serious delusions about the level of power and political influence that police unions have...

lance22
December 18, 2007, 03:19 PM
At the risk of having my account banned from THR - how many people have supervised average LEO's at IPSC / IDPA matches? If you have, you understand why they have to put so many rounds downrange. The stories I could tell ...

I do know some LEO's who are truely skilled with their firearms - far beyond where I'll ever be - but it's because they practice incessantly and not because they joined SWAT and therefore shoot 4 times a year instead of only 2 times a year.

mekender
December 18, 2007, 03:25 PM
They will learn to make do with less, as all of us have to do when our budget is cut. Maybe you start by getting rid of all the department owned cars used as personal vehicles by the chief and his cronies. Unless the punishment hurts, nothing will change.

like teachers, i WANT my local police to be paid well... well paid people are more likely to like their job and do it well... and i also WANT them to have well maintained and up to date equipment... it helps them do their job better... i don't want officer Johnson driving his 1984 dodge pickup out on patrol... he cant catch bad guys in it very well... i want my local officers to have state of the art computers, well maintained equipment that is reliable, and the best training available... you start cutting budgets, something goes away...

as for the PR departments... considering that the newspapers and news stations are very quick to fire off stories about supposed abuse.... this cop fired too many rounds... that cop used his tazer on a man that wasn't violent, only running naked through a playground at 2am... that other cop ran his cruser into a "unarmed" driver that was only trying to get away when he rammed a police car... etc etc... the media relishes the idea of vilifying our police officers much the way that they love running stories about "massacres" in iraq that dont actually happen(i can point to at least 5 of those in the last week)... of course after the reports come out, the apologies for their lies show up on page 24... so yeah, you are damn right that the PD needs a PR group... otherwise, we would all assume that the PD was totally corrupt and full of evil men that wanted nothing more than to abuse non LEO's...

again, yes there NEEDS to be accountability, but financial penalties are ineffective... how about this... raise the pay, raise the standards needed to get hired... increase training, and education... and start criminally punishing those few officers that do abuse the public...

dakid2
December 18, 2007, 03:29 PM
I know there have been many different stories about what happened, but it sounds like a no knock on bad info or a wrong house hit. Either way they are responsible and when is the last time you saw them have to pay or get docked pay. Yeah right, they will say sorry and the family will have to fight to get reimbursed for damage and the father will have to hope he is not charged. Great system. By the way, if the story I saw was correct, nice shooting cops, 30 rounds no hits and the father hits them twice. No knocks blow. I guess he should be lucky they did toss an incendiary or a flash bang and burn down the house and then found to be found not liable.

ilbob
December 18, 2007, 03:30 PM
At the risk of having my account banned from THR - how many people have supervised average LEO's at IPSC / IDPA matches? If you have, you understand why they have to put so many rounds downrange. The stories I could tell ...

I do know some LEO's who are truely skilled with their firearms - far beyond where I'll ever be - but it's because they practice incessantly and not because they joined SWAT and therefore shoot 4 times a year instead of only 2 times a year.
I don't know if that is a fair criticism. I do know our local club has some Chicago PD officers that shoot in the IPSC matches and I have heard nothing but praise for their safety and skill level. In fairness, these are guys that make the effort to go shoot more often.

If you ever read secondcitycop (a Chicago pd blog site) you will see one of the recurring complaints is the minimal firearms training. I like the blog owners response - something along the lines of if the PD training and practice ammo is inadequate, pay for it yourself.

ilbob
December 18, 2007, 03:37 PM
as for the PR departments
Instead of using the PR departments to misrepresent what goes on, just use regular officers to tell the truth. In the long run it will be far more effective in gaining the trust of the people then the lies the spin meisters put out. Teach officers to answer questions from the press in an honest and upfront manner. If the officer does not know, just say so. If there are things that truly need to be kept out of the public realm (and there are a very few), just say so, and explain why.

Maybe it will sometimes make the department look bad because they made a mistake, but people know when they are being lied to, and they never trust that source ever again. Most of us can accept an actual mistake, since we all make them now and then. Being lied to is something else.

Deanimator
December 18, 2007, 03:43 PM
again, yes there NEEDS to be accountability, but financial penalties are ineffective... how about this... raise the pay, raise the standards needed to get hired... increase training, and education... and start criminally punishing those few officers that do abuse the public...
1. Can you cite for me ANY evidence that the proximate cause of the incident in question was related to:

pay
hiring standards
training
education

2. Did you follow the link I provided showing the mother of all examples of systemic refusal to punish police misbehavior? Do you consider a 30 day suspension appropriate punishment for shooting an unarmed man in the head, then lying about it to investigators? If NOT, what would you propose to the family of Michael Pleasance as a remedy if NOT sueing the city of Chicago?

Basically what you seem to be saying is, "Sueing the city won't help, materially punishing the police department as an entity won't help, and if the police department won't punish its officers, Oh well!"

Could you POSSIBLY see where some people wouldn't accept that?

mekender
December 18, 2007, 03:56 PM
Did you follow the link I provided showing the mother of all examples of systemic refusal to punish police misbehavior? Do you consider a 30 day suspension appropriate punishment for shooting an unarmed man in the head, then lying about it to investigators? If NOT, what would you propose to the family of Michael Pleasance as a remedy if NOT sueing the city of Chicago.

yes i followed the link... no, 30 days of suspension is not enough... suing the city IS a valid compensation for the victims, and they damn sure deserve it... but it does nothing to punish the department...

as for refusal to punish police misbehavior... how about Waco and Ruby Ridge... the incompetence of the DoJ cost dozens of lives, and they flat out murdered the people at ruby ridge... and there was hardly any punishment...

Basically what you seem to be saying is, "Sueing the city won't help, materially punishing the police department as an entity won't help, and if the police department won't punish its officers, Oh well!"

nope, that is not what i said... what i said was that a financial penalty is NOT punishment... its not a punishment because the money that they use to pay the families already belongs to the citizens... they are paying for their mistakes with someone else's money...

i said more than once that there NEEDS to be accountability and criminal punishment... the department doesn't have to punish its officers, let a jury do that...

but there is a balance... if you crack down so tightly that all of the officers hesitate before acting, officers will die... a patrol officer that has to stop and think about weather he's going to get sued or go to jail if he shoots a BG will take precious seconds hesitating before taking action...

DoubleTapDrew
December 18, 2007, 03:57 PM
Is it typical to do full-on SWAT raids like this with no intel on the house, who might be there, whether or not this is the right house to begin with, etc? My knowledge of these is limited to shows like dallas swat :p but they always seem to have a team meeting showing the house, the suspected layout, who is likely there, etc. like they've been doing surveillance on it.
Maybe there is no time or manpower to do that every time but it seems like it would stop a lot of these "oops sorry, my bad" raids and save some lives of people who did nothing more than have an address that looks like the address of a suspect.

jerkface11
December 18, 2007, 04:01 PM
The SWAT team should be disbanded and all of their gear sold off. This city doesn't seem to be able to have such a team.

E.T.A. The police should also thank Mr. Vang for not using a rifle for home defense.

coylh
December 18, 2007, 04:02 PM
It's tough to make your home defense plans around multiple intruders with body armor.

Not if you own a rifle.

mekender
December 18, 2007, 04:06 PM
Can you cite for me ANY evidence that the proximate cause of the incident in question was related to:

* pay hiring standards training education

mainly im judging from the knowledge of the officers ive known... none of em make enough... half of em i wouldn't have hired to guard my mail box, and everyone of them was under trained and under educated (most of them get their real education on the streets)... lets face it, they are doing a job that most of us wouldn't want to do for any price... how about giving them the best possible environment to do that...

i mean FFS, when you go for surgery, you make damn sure that you have the best doctors working on you and you have no problem with them making hundreds of thousands of dollars per year... but when you need someone to enforce the law, investigate crime, keep society decent and potentially put their life on the line for an innocent, we pay them barely enough to survive, we give them 4 to 6 months of training, then we hand them a badge and a gun and say "go to it"... and officers are arguably just as if not more important to society in general as doctors are...

but let either a doctor or a officer make a mistake and kill an innocent and we crucify them to the same degree...

again, yes malicious acts should be prosecuted... mistakes should be addressed...

ilbob
December 18, 2007, 04:18 PM
but there is a balance... if you crack down so tightly that all of the officers hesitate before acting, officers will die... a patrol officer that has to stop and think about weather he's going to get sued or go to jail if he shoots a BG will take precious seconds hesitating before taking action...
what we are talking about is simply verifying that the information they have is accurate before breaking down someone's door at 1 am. if they can't verify the information from reputable sources, it should not be used. of course, the judge who signed the warrant in the first place ought to be hounded out of office. their primary duty in such cases should be to hold the police feet to the fire to make sure only legitimate warrants are issued. I know if I was a judge and this kind of thing happened on a warrant I had signed based on the cops lying about the veracity of the information source, the cops who signed the warrant application would have some serious explaining to do.

mekender
December 18, 2007, 04:21 PM
what we are talking about is simply verifying that the information they have is accurate before breaking down someone's door at 1 am. if they can't verify the information from reputable sources, it should not be used. of course, the judge who signed the warrant in the first place ought to be hounded out of office. their primary duty in such cases should be to hold the police feet to the fire to make sure only legitimate warrants are issued. I know if I was a judge and this kind of thing happened on a warrant I had signed based on the cops lying about the veracity of the information source, the cops who signed the warrant application would have some serious explaining to do.

i couldnt agree more... unfortunately judges tend to get pretty comfortable in their jobs and they know that it is pretty unlikely that they will get removed from office... there definitely needs to be more accountability... on both the judicial level and the enforcement level...

lance22
December 18, 2007, 04:44 PM
ilBob wrote: I don't know if that is a fair criticism. I do know our local club has some Chicago PD officers that shoot in the IPSC matches and I have heard nothing but praise for their safety and skill level. In fairness, these are guys that make the effort to go shoot more often.

If you ever read secondcitycop (a Chicago pd blog site) you will see one of the recurring complaints is the minimal firearms training. I like the blog owners response - something along the lines of if the PD training and practice ammo is inadequate, pay for it yourself.

I had in mind the LEO's that show up for their first or second match there are some that do well but more that do more on their first showing. I've seen them drop pistols, draw & eject mag (accidentally) instead of draw and fire, lotsa muzzle / finger problems their first couple times at matches. That's to say nothing of not hitting targets which we really don't care about from new shooters. Maybe in IL they get better training or something. I recall a couple LEO's who showed up thinking they were gonna show us mall ninjas how it's done and both handled their firearms so poorly we really had to stretch the rules to keep from DQ'ing them. It is my observation that LEO's - when at their first IPSC match - have poorer finger / muzzle awareness than non-LEO 'new shooters'. My opinion only.

After they have a couple matches under their belt they really take off but being a LEO apparently doesn't infuse them with the jedi skills that the media makes out that 'trained people' somehow possesss. And, I said in my first post that LEO's who attend regularly are fantastic shooters, highly skilled, professionals on whom you can trust your life. But, nobody who fires their gun merely 30 - 40 times a year can be either proficient or safe.

This is part of why I think it's good for people to be their own first-responders. The person who shows up to rescue you might only shoot two times a year. I once talked to one LEO who didn't even know off-hand the model or caliber of her sidearm. "I don't know the department gave it to me".

30 shots and no hits seems pretty on par.

ilbob
December 18, 2007, 04:47 PM
This is part of why I think it's good for people to be their own first-responders. The person who shows up to rescue you might only shoot two times a year. I once talked to one LEO who didn't even know off-hand the model or caliber of her sidearm. "I don't know the department gave it to me".
probably not that unusual. a lot of cops probably think of their gun as a tool not unlike their pen and ticket book. just something they cart around with them while they work.

Offwhite
December 18, 2007, 04:56 PM
Hitting an Asian wearing Pajamas has proven extraordinarily difficult at times, especially if the Pajamas are black. In fact thats the main reason they started using 30 shot mags instead of the old 20 rounders.
Even then it took about a hundred thousand rounds per kill.

You know oddly enough I have learned this out as well. If they are in black or dark robes they seem to be even harder to take down...when you take the pebble from my hand you will become the master...

Master Blaster
December 18, 2007, 05:16 PM
http://www.lewrockwell.com/grigg/grigg-w10.html

Our own little execution by SWAT here in DE.
The lawsuit will be in the millions.

Deanimator
December 18, 2007, 05:27 PM
but there is a balance... if you crack down so tightly that all of the officers hesitate before acting, officers will die... a patrol officer that has to stop and think about weather he's going to get sued or go to jail if he shoots a BG will take precious seconds hesitating before taking action...

What's the downside of a cop and his supervisor making sure he has the right address before he kicks in a door?

I can tell you the downside of him not doing so at my house. Somebody's going to get shot and probably killed. There are indeed people who shrug such things off. I don't happen to be one of them.

TwitchALot
December 18, 2007, 05:29 PM
Those responsible for faulty intel and kicking in the wrong door will be reprimanded and punished according to department policy up to and including termination.

Why should the guys who kicked the wrong door down be reprimanded? Was it his fault someone else gave him the wrong intel? If he checked the intel, wouldn't he still have gotten the same, wrong, intel? "It was some bad information that was received on the front end that kind-of trickled all the way through." How were the officers sent there supposed to know it was the wrong house when the people at the very top got it wrong?

That's just typical BS reporting.

I think you're just jumping the gun. To me that means, "we have no idea what's going on, but we're going to try to make our story sound good." For all you know the police have decided not to press charges and they just haven't told the media (and who likes the media?).

These cops are the worst shots in the history of law enforcement. If you cant hit a homeowner in his pajamas that you surprised in the middle of the night... with 30 rounds....in full tactical gear <this makes me smile at the mall-ninjas that think being decked out like a SWAT team makes you the UBERSOLDIER... obviously learning how to shoot helps.>

I don't know about you, and I'm no LEO by the way, but if I heard "two officers down," my priority would be getting those officers out of there, and putting fire down if need be to do so safely, not hunting down the guy who's probably behind cover hiding somewhere popping rounds downrange (at me and fellow officers).

And quite frankly, it's rather disturbing to see so many of you jump the gun like the anti-gun media. When the other side makes claims, you have be skeptical. But when "your side" makes claims, who cares if it's true or not?

I don't know about the rest of you, but I've heard enough of the, "it was like a war-zone" comments to believe this witness exaggerated (as tends to happen) or get the number wrong.

If there were truly honesty, integrity and balanced/fair reporting, the very first reports would have been on how Mr. Khang was victimizerd by an overzealous Swat team.

An overzealous SWAT team? The ones following their orders to the letter? The SWAT team was overzealous because the people at the very top got the information wrong? That sounds real honest and balanced and fair. :scrutiny:

USAFNoDAk
December 18, 2007, 05:33 PM
Quote:
Hitting an Asian wearing Pajamas has proven extraordinarily difficult at times, especially if the Pajamas are black. In fact thats the main reason they started using 30 shot mags instead of the old 20 rounders.
Even then it took about a hundred thousand rounds per kill.

You know oddly enough I have learned this out as well. If they are in black or dark robes they seem to be even harder to take down...when you take the pebble from my hand you will become the master...
__________________

That homeowner will never order another "Pajama Blam" as long as he lives.

Deanimator
December 18, 2007, 05:40 PM
mistakes should be addressed
If a citizen makes a fatal "mistake" with a firearm that demonstrates wrecklessness or malice, he tends to go to prison. Not so much with police. Generally NOT AT ALL with the Chicago Police.

I'm sorry. Kicking in the wrong door is a strict liability offense. If you can't be bothered to do your job with competence, discretion and common sense, you should expect bad things to happen... to YOU. If I have to pick up the Garand, NOBODY'S going to be happy when things shake out. Face shields don't stop .30-06 ball.

Wheeler44
December 18, 2007, 05:45 PM
but there is a balance... if you crack down so tightly that all of the officers hesitate before acting, officers will die... a patrol officer that has to stop and think about weather he's going to get sued or go to jail if he shoots a BG will take precious seconds hesitating before taking action...
I know that this will upset some folks but..........
I honestly hope that anyone hesitates before shooting just make sure of what they are doing.

Shooting from the hip (figuratively speaking of course) is what led to the incident in the first place. Not verifying the target (both the home in question and the poor guy at the top of the stairs in his underwear) can have dire consequences.

Deanimator
December 18, 2007, 05:51 PM
And quite frankly, it's rather disturbing to see so many of you jump the gun like the anti-gun media. When the other side makes claims, you have be skeptical. But when "your side" makes claims, who cares if it's true or not?

Ever heard of the Kathryn Johnston case in Atlanta?

1. Cops lie to get warrant.
2. Cops execute bogus warrant.
3. Elderly victim of bogus warrant shoots at cops in self-defense.
4. Cops (committing a felonious home invasion) riddle elderly victim with bullets and allow her to bleed to death.
5. Cops discover NO drugs nor any evidence of drug activity.
6. Cops plant drugs to cover up sham warrant, home invasion and murder.
7. Cops attempt to strongarm an informant into lying to support their "fable" about drug dealing at victim's home.
8. Informant flees cops and tells FBI(?) and media about police attempt to suborn perjury from him.
9. Police "fable" collapses like Ted Kennedy on a bender.
10. Three police officers charged in this series of crimes.
11. Two of three officers cop pleas. Third foolishly demands trial.

Now tell me why well informed people are EXTREMELY sceptical of ANY such police "mistake"...

keeleon
December 18, 2007, 05:52 PM
This guy should in no way have charges filed against him. The brass should be on their knees kissing his ass and apologizing. And the SWAT officer's that did NOT kill Kang should be thanked and commended for not letting a bad situation escalate out of control. How easy would it have been for them to justify hunting him down and obliterating him after he shot and downed 2 officers?

I'm curious, does anyone know who they thought they were going after, or what they were expected to be up against? I have no knowledge of police tactics, but 30 officers seems like a LOT to me for a simple drug bust. It must have been something pretty big they were going after, and yet with all the paperwork they have now, the BGs had PLENTY of time to ditch the evidence. Much more than if they would have just knocked.

Deanimator
December 18, 2007, 06:00 PM
I honestly hope that anyone hesitates before shooting just make sure of what they are doing.
Sorry, there really ARE people who want to kill me, or at least they've repeatedly told me so.

That being the case, I'd be a bigger fool than Paris Hilton if I just stood around with my finger in my ear when armed men kicked in my door. If I don't shoot first, I probably won't be shooting second... or at all.

If you kick my door in, I'm going to shoot you. If you don't want to get shot, don't kick my door in.

I'm in launch on warning mode. I don't have a choice. The police do.

Get the address right or accept the consequences. Those are the choices, the ONLY choices.

Jeff White
December 18, 2007, 06:06 PM
1. Posts on the militarization of the police?............. Check

2. Posts where members were able to express how technically and tactically proficient they are by boldly stating how many police officers they intend to kill?..........Check

3. Posts where members link to the Cato Institute report on SWAT Teams?....Check

4. Posts where members increase their self esteem by saying the police can't shoot?.....Check

5. Pots where members who don't understand sovereign immunity call for the officers to be jailed although there is no hint of criminal misconduct?....Check

6. Guesses about what was on the warrant application by members who have never applied for a warrant and haven't a clue about the law?.......Check

7. Members ranting about Chicago PD, no matter where the incident happened?.........Check

8. Members calling for the SWAT Team to be disbanded?.......Check

9. Members calling for no knock raids to be stopped, even though there is no evidence this was a no knock raid?.......Check

10. Posts complaining about how the police drive?....Check

11. Posts referring to the Blue Wall of Silence? .......Check

12. Posts saying this never happened in Mayberry?.....None

13. No posts with any actual facts other then a news report?.....Check

Well boys and girls, 137 posts of of wasted bandwidth ranting and raving and speculation about something you haven't got any facts on. You hit 12 of 13 criteria for a good cop bashing thread not bad. I hope everyone feels better.

We've added another 100+ post thread to library of closed threads on this subject. This is as worn out as 9mm v. .45 and AR v. Ak. :rolleyes:

You all are so predictable. :neener:

Jeff

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