[oldhammy1]

I was fortunate to shoot a whitetail at just under 600 yards this last season, and was comfortable at that range. I am looking to upgrade from 30-06 to 300 win mag. Most individuals I know use 180 grain boat tails with the 300 mag. I would prefer to use a 165 or 168 grain bullet. I know some rounds have an ideal bullet weight/type for optimum performance. Is there any information anyone is aware of that says that 165 or 168 grain bullets in the 300 win mag are not optimum. I realize this is a pretty open ended question, but am looking for some knowledge.

(Moderator-If I am in the wrong place, feel free to move this)

[Fisherman_48768]

Sounds to me like the 30-06 did the trick just fine, invest the $$ into more ammo for longer range practice.

[MCgunner]

Were you hunting or shooting? :D No offense, I just have a personal shot limit around 400 yards. Too many variables to risk it on game when I know I can get closer.

For that sort of shooting, consider the 7mm STW, far better choice than a .300WM IMHO for a flat shooting, long range hunting caliber on medium game. If I hunted a lot out in the western mountains, I'd think about getting one, just don't need that around here. Yeah, the 06 might have done the job, but there are flatter shooting long range rounds out there that are better for the job.

[Zak Smith]

Flat-shooting is a common but misguided desire for a long-range cartridge. The shooter's skill and confidence in his rifle is much more important.

Going from something sedate like a 0.4 BC 308 load up to a high-BC blistering 7STW, you're only going to gain about 50 yards of point-blank distance (for example to keep the POI +/- 3" from the POA), from about 275 to about 325 yards. Beyond that distance you need to use some method to compensate for bullet drop anyway.

-z

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

To hold over, nearly three feet for a 30-06 sighted in for zero at 200 yards to put a kill shot on a Deer at 600 yards, is more like slingin lead.

Was it a lucky shot that shouldn't have been taken? A 180gn bullet would have just less than 1300 pounds of Kynetic energy at 600 yards. Enough to kill, but a wind drifted shot might not dispatch the animal in a timely manner. A rump shot would not. He would have suffered and died a miserable death in winter or before then by Coyotes or a cat. Most of the hunting bullets don't perform as well when impacting flesh at the lower velocities also.

For long shots like that I certainly would not recommend anything lighter than a 180gn bullet with a good design and high BC that performs well from say 1900-3200fps. By performing well, I mean accuracy, expansion and weight retention upon impact. Remember, a 165gn bullet will retain less velocity and less kynetic energy at long ranges as the same designed 180gn bullet fired at the same initial velocity. I'll agree with Zak Smith, Both the 165 and 180gn bullets will still have considerable drop at 600 yards. At distance we cannot ignore wind drift from the smaller lighter bullets. In fact, even with heavy .30 bullets, wind drift can be quite concerning.

Now.. as for cartridge in the .30, I would push for something that has a muzzle velocity for a 180-190gn bullet to be ~3100fps. The .300winmag, .300WetherbyMag and several other wildcats fit the bill. At those velocities, a good bullet will still have 1900 pounds of energy all the way out to 500 yards. Needed for Whitetail or Mule Deer that might weigh up to 300 pounds. But you'd make a different choice for 100 pound Pronghorn.

Pick up a good reloading manual or program that has long range trajectory for various Bullet BC at given velocities. Then compare what you need in down range performance to the limited amount of cartridges that are capable of delivering that performance.

Remember, being a good shot does not make a good hunter. Many hunters are poor shots. Excellent hunters are those that combine hunting and shooting skills to take game at reasonable distances, dispatching them with minimal amounts of suffering.

-Steve

[MCgunner]

Was it a lucky shot that shouldn't have been taken? A 180gn bullet would have just less than 1300 pounds of Kynetic energy at 600 yards. Enough to kill, but a wind drifted shot might not dispatch the animal in a timely manner.


That's my problem with shooting over 400 yards, just too many variables like drift or up or down hill shooting and such. These days with laser range finders, yeah, you can judge the distance to the foot for drop, which is but one variable in the field. I can get closer by planning a stalk and that's half the fun of hunting out west IMHO. I don't get near as much fun out of shooting as stalking, gets the old blood a pumpin'. :D If I spook the deer, oh, well, I'll start spottin' again.

All moot around here, though, where 200 yards is about as far as you can see to shoot. My .308 is sighted for 200.

[LeonCarr]

Mr. Oldhammy1,

As previously mentioned, in the .300 Winnie a 180 grain boattail bullet would be better for long range shooting, due to the higher ballistic coefficent and higher retained energy at long range. Also, when the buck of a lifetime that you are expecting to step out at 300 yards steps out at 50 yards, a 180 grain bullet will hold together better and keep your buck from looking like it was hit with a hand grenade.

Sounds like your .30-06 works pretty good, why change?

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

[MCgunner]

When and if I ever go back out west to hunt, New Mexico, it's probably going to be with black powder. The season is early, before snow falls, longer, and the deer less skittish, though I'll have to stalk within 100 yards. I've done the 350 across the canyon thing. The way New Mexico's seasons are structured, BP season is REAL attractive to me. Believe it or not, people do kill mulies out west with BP guns, they just have to use more hunting skills.

[oldhammy1]

Coues deer are rarely more than 150 lbs, usually close to 100. My shot was in the dead calm of morning, within 1/2 hour of daylight. I had a friend spotting for me with 20 power optics. Previous to the hunt, I practiced out to 625 yards, verifying my ballistics, and range capability. I haven't posted here for a long time, and I think now I remember why. Every time I post someone has to chime in an be critical of what I (or others) are doing. I also love seeing the guys comment from back east who hunt from a tree stand over a deer feeder, question the hunting ethics of us out west, where the deer can see you from a mile away. It is not uncommon to glass up a deer at 2-3 miles, and attempt to get close enough for a shot. If you think I am just jerking your chain, come out one year to Arizona or New Mexico, and give it a try. I can't tell you how many little punks I have seen move out here from other parts, with photos and videos of their monster "trophies", and after a few days in the field, are convinced that their are no deer here. You have to be ready for every situation if you want success, and fortunately for me, I had practiced at a range sufficient to make a clean kill. He was dead before he knew it. It's a shame I have to explain/defend myself, when it seems some mutual respect of others ethics might not be a bad thing, at least once in a while. OK, I am off of my soap box. For those that provided advice, I appreciate it. I think I am just verifying what I already know, more than anything. If I have stirred up the pot a little, so be it.

[Reyn]

What kind of rifle were you shooting and optics?

[eliphalet]

I also love seeing the guys comment from back east who hunt from a tree stand over a deer feeder, question the hunting ethics of us out west, where the deer can see you from a mile away. It is not uncommon to glass up a deer at 2-3 miles, and attempt to get close enough for a shot. Boy oh boy do I understand and I agree with that . What is almost needed are two hunting forums. One for guys that hunt western open public lands and one for guys that hunt private land or pay to hunt and or from stands and over feeders. I have not hunted except in the west but what I read here and other places it must be almost a completely different world. I think a lot of misconceptions and failures to communicate are a fairly regular occurrence.

[oldhammy1]

REYN-



30-06, 150 gr balistic silvertips, 61 grains of H4831, pentax gameseeker scope. Any other questions?

[Reyn]

What rifle?

[skinewmexico]

What is almost needed are two hunting forums.

Not really. When in Rome..........

[JG2000]

After watching these guys take an elk at 830 yards and and antelope at over 1000 I think maybe you where to close. Give the deer a chance :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCyTRzL5AAQ
I'd like to here what you find out as far as "perfect" weight for the .300win mag. I know all rifles are different but it might give me a starting point when I start to reload for mine.

[oldhammy1]

Rifle- Remington 700 BDL

[MCgunner]

I tried not to be TOO critical, holier than thou, understand everything you're saying about people from other areas of the country. If you like to shoot long range, fine. If you're skilled, great! I ain't tellin' ya how to hunt, just tellin' ya I don't know that much bein' I don't shoot over 400 yards. Someone said a 7STW ain't any better than a .308, well, okay, whatever. I'm not the expert, just that the numbers would seem to ME to give it quite a bit less drop out there at 600 plus. I've not run the numbers, though, and am too lazy to mess with it over a thread, LOL! But, for a guy that shoots 400 max, a 350 yard PBR is better than a 275 yard PBR. It means no hold over at all to my personal limit. I do have my drop tables taped to the scope to 500 yards for the .308, but around here that's not necessary.


Heck, for those coues, a .22-250 might be a good choice, or a .220 swift. :D It sure don't take a .300 mag to kill one. I'd STILL think 7 STW or maybe a .257 Weatherby or something, but I like 7mm bullet BCs. Also, if you handload, .264 Win Mag might be just the thing! I just don't care much for .300 mag, not very good BCs and excessive recoil. Long range shooting, lighter the recoil the better for ME. Of course, some guys just aren't affected as much by recoil and it hunting situations it don't bother me much, but at 600 yards, even a LITTLE flinch would put me off. I can shoot the 7 mag fine, though and an STW would be about as bad as a .300 mag, probably.

Just tossing out some ideas. Hope I didn't come across as thinking I knew anything, LOL! I don't have a rifle, more importantly a scope, set up for that sort of shooting. If I got into it, I'd want range compensation, maybe mil dot or some sort of drop compensating scope. having proper glass for such shots is pretty important and having a gun that can shoot 1/2 MOA or better would be nice. My stuff, 3/4 MOA is about as good as it gets. A 1 MOA gun gets you 6" at 600 yards, not that good for coues deer, ROFL! Might as well be trying to hit a jack rabbit.

Appologise if I came off snooty.

[Art Eatman]

oldhammy1, you'd be surprised at how many times somebody starts out talking of some long-distance shooting, and we learn through the thread that they're just beginning to shoot and hunt, and have little or no prior experience. Hard to tell, sometimes, from an opening post in a thread just what the situation actually is.

One reason I like the Sierra reloading guide is for their appendices, with some of the best data on external ballistics of any of the guides.

IIRC, the 180-grain SPBT has less drop and wind drift than either the 150 or 165 out in the 400- to 600-yard ranges.

To stick some purely personal opinion in this, it seems to me that if you already know the drop numbers for an '06 and are using a range finder, there is little gain in going to 5% or 10% more "horsepower".

FWIW, with my '06 I got 0.4 MOA for three shots with the Sierra 180 SPBT and 54.0 grains (book max) of H414; 100 yards. 26" barrel Wby Mk V. I loaned it to Justin for his elk hunt and it seemed to work okay. :) With book max of 4064, I got right at one MOA for eight of ten rather-quick shots at 500, with two called fliers.

More FWIW: On steel at 500 yards, the little crater from the 180 was definitely deeper and wider with more splash than the 165.

Art

[Harve Curry]

Oldhammy,
Congratulations on making that long shot, like you said you knew your rifle because you had been practicing at long range. I shot one coues deer at 625 yards, shot metalic silluettes all summer with the same Savage 99 308 rifle, so I know. Those coues deer are hardy animals and not to be underestimated, so a 7mm or 30 cal of at least 150gr is good at ranges over 300 yards. A good shot at long range is better then a bad shot at 50 yards. Certain amount of respect and satisfaction to see what you and a rifle bullet can do.
Since I made those long shots I've found more fun in hunting with early metalic cartridge breechloaders with iron sights and lots of trajectory. As long as my eyeballs :what:hold out and I can walk:eek:.
As to your question I keep two 30-06's with 165 /168 gr ammo.

[oldhammy1]

Thanks for your comments Art and Harve. I am looking to pick up that 300 win mag in the next week or so, and as I work up and test different loads, I will post the results. Ideally, I would like to end up with a 168 grain silvertip, at about 3150 fps. For anyone out there that has not harvested a coues, I highly recommend the experience. It is awesome!! Once again, I appreciate all of your comments and info.

[Harve Curry]

harvest?? Arrrrggghhhh!!:banghead::D

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

To defend my post if it offened you, You did not say you took a 150 pound Coues. Just that you took a Whitetail. Your profile does not list your location so I had to figure the possibility of an Alberta big boy.
As I said, you'd choose something different if taking Pronghorn at distance.

"Is there any information anyone is aware of that says that 165 or 168 grain bullets in the 300 win mag are not optimum."

In my experience, yes.

Most of us that work up a load try to fill the case just shy of a compressed load with a given powder when we've got the bullet seated just .001" from the lands. Fact is, many SBT's in the lighter weights don't allow even a caliber dimmension seating in the neck of the case when loaded that way. They just aren't long enough because they're a lighter bullet. Does this affect accuracy? In many rifles it does. Choice of bullet, or finding the one that works best in your rifle will be trial and error. There's also a bit to be said for the heavier bullet in it's inherant ability to stabilize since there's just a bit more contact with the lands as it scoots out the barrel.

Now, I'm not a long range competitor. I read a bit, and I've tried a few things. I shoot a 30-338 that is just about or right at 1moa with certain bullets. But just as I don't like Brussel sprouts, I haven't found a load/light bullet that it 'really' likes.

I would think that you're looking for a sub-MOA rifle to be sure to deliver a humane kill at those ranges.

I hope the .300mag gives you what you're looking for. Think of it this way.. If you ever come up north to hunt something bigger than dogs, you won't be under gunned. :D (I know, there's Elk down in NM too. Just joking!)

Oh, and I chose a 30-338 instead of a .300wm because I can get the roughly the same ballistics with nearly 20% less powder. The same idea as what they're doing with the WSM's now. I figure you're a reloader. Take a look at the .308 Norma or .30 Gibbs if you don't want a belted magnum. And for those smaller Deer, Yeah, the 7STW wouldn't be a bad choice. If you want to go lighter, higher velocity, then go smaller diameter. Maybe a 270 Weatherby mag?

-Steve

[oldhammy1]

I am now officially convinced that many on this site are more interested in nit-picking and looking for disputes, than are looking to contribute to a civil discussion. Yes, I said harvested! So it wasn't the perfect ethical scientific hunting term, but if every single word I post is scrutinized and picked apart by individuals that may or may not be "qualified" to pass judgement, then I think I am posting on the wrong site. You knew exactly what I meant, and now that I have spent more time defending myself, when I was looking for some simple advice, I think I will call it a day here. For those who did provide some good information, I do appreciate it, and will try to apply it and make myself a better shooter and hunter (I'm sure at least one of the words I used here was offensive to someone out there, so I appologize in advance).

[MCgunner]

An explanation on the term "harvest". There's a thread down the page that gripes about the use of the term (personally, I have no problem with it) that is probably the reference to that rolling eyes post.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=322834

I don't have a problem with "harvest". However, on the shotgun forum, I have this thing about calling a shotgun a "shotty". I try to refrain from comments, though, ROFL!!!!!!!

You will notice on that thread, yet another NW hunter jumping on Texas hunters for using feeders and stands and calling us "unethical". This is why I said I can relate to your gripe about other hunters from other areas. There are lots of "my way or the highway" types here. It starts arguments, but I like to argue. I guess that's why I'm here with so damned many posts in a few years. :D

[AKCOP]

OK, I'll put a target on my back for this one. I do not think I would ever take a 600 yard shot. When I hear stories abou super long range shots like this I wonder where the "hunting" comes in. I know we have firearms and ammo that is very capable of making these shots but personally I always figured if I could not get within at least 200 yards of an animal I wasn't doing a very good job as a hunter. As long as I have legs and lungs that work I will strive for as close a shot as possible and pass ones that may result in a wounded or lost animal. OK, I'm ready.......

[Art Eatman]

Note that the Federal Premium Hi-energy loading for the '06 claims 3,150 ft/sec with a 165-grain Sierra, from a 26" barrel. A few years back, I had some emailings with an Aussie about this. He stated that he'd chronographed this load, and agreed with the factory claim.

Based purely on such subjective judgement as felt recoil in comparison to other loads, and the ruinacious devastation on a poor innocent coyote, I'm pretty much a believer. :)

Art

[Harve Curry]

Eeeegads Oldhammy1, It was light hearted dry sence of humor. Shoot I put a smiley grinning face at the end of it. I started a topic about it in this hunting section.

[MCgunner]

Yeah, Art, thought that sounded kinda slow for a .300 mag. Of course, with his 06, he has lots of stuff from the factory like Hornady light magnum. But, I can see wanting a mag in the same way I chose the 7 mag over the .280 I was thinkin' about. You can make a .280 out of a 7, but you can't make a 7 out of a .280.

[30-06 lover]

You have quite a talent amigo. Longest shot I ever took, and it was damn far for me, was 310 yards.

Usually it is very close range that light bullets tend to have problems out of a 300 Win Mag or larger. I have seen quite a few fragment in deer at ranges less than 100 yards. The 300 was never really desined for light bullets. 165gr would be my bare minimum starting point. I would personally stick to 180 as it should carry enough "umph" to effectivly push through a deer's vitals out at longe range. I would also shy away from bullets like the Balistic Tip as they are known fragmenters. Even at long range, they will fragment if they hit bone. Fine for the range, but not fair to the animal. Accubonds or Interbonds may be your best bet for long range as they are very accurate bullets, but designed to stay together. Best of luck.

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

I'm gonna step out on a limb here... NOBODY SHOOT IT OFF... I'm gonna defend Hammy, (I like Hammy, the squirl on the movie 'Over the Hedge'.)

I've never hunted Coues in NM. They just may be that difficult to get close to. I dunno. I do know that I've been within 50 feet of Columbia Coues here in Washington, alas, we can't hunt them here. (here they weigh a bloody lot more than a buck fifty too!) The wide open area's of the deep southwest probably give a different hunting experience than the foothills and mountains of the great northwest, (great northwet). Are there places here where we can 'harvest' game at long distances? Yes. We just don't for the most part, because there's usually cover to get closer. Every day of this hunting season I was in the field, there was a good breeze. Not prime for long distance shooting. And I did pass up a chance on a once in a lifetime Mule deer that was on a trot at 500yds. It was not time to teach my 13 and 15 year olds to take long shots that morning. It's one thing if just at a piece of paper with someone as a spotter. A little different on an animal. And this dad wasn't about to begin showing off how well he can shoot.

It's also illegal to hunt with bait here for Deer, Bear and Elk. So for you Texans with feeders on timers and even ya'll back east that plant food plots just so you can sit in a nice cozy treestand through the blistering chill of a day and take 3 or 6, or 9 or 12 Deer a season/year, Please be comforted that you can do so, because out west we don't have as many Deer, and we have to hunt them differently according to our regulations. We only get one a year. Hammy hunts his way, you hunt your way, we hunt our way.

I have a friend from Indiana that was seasoned hunter for Whitetail. Got his ten pointer when he was a kid. (we only count one side of the rack out here...) Anyway, he was a good Navy buddy stationed in Washington for 12 or so years. We hunted together for Blacktail for several seasons. He never got one. Said they were the hardest Deer to ever hunt. Hmm? I wonder why I've gotten ten of them, (seven with open sighted lever gun. Some out to 200 yards. A few more with open sighted pistol), and a few Muley's and a couple Whitetail? I dunno. Just lucky I guess.

NOW That's how to stir up a forum OldHammy1. You did nothing wrong.

-Steve

[eliphalet]

Hunting from a cozy heated stand just might make it harder to understand the necessity of on the last day of season spending 6 hours stalking a deer trying to get close enough for a shot. Spending hours not being able to move to avoid detection, and Crawling in the brush, rocks, and dirt and then only being able to get close enough that with the corsshairs level with his back have the 150 g. bullet at 3000 FPS hit just above the heart. This was the exception not the rule, but by far and away not the only time either, it can and does happen. I know I was that crawling hunter.
I do know that not everyone sits in a heated elevated plywood box watching a feeder, some are no doubt hunters facing difficult hunting situations but,
Hunting Western sage brush or shooting across mountain canyons isn't much like lots of hunting East of the Rockies from what I have read about it, and that having the ability to make a long distance shot when called for is a very good thing.

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

Remember that hunting video on YouTube a short while back where the hunt stands were on stilts up and down a powerline access road? Oh, that's hunting for sure!

I know. NOT everyone hunts that way.

These hunting shows bug the crap out of me with their hunting sheds and pop-up blinds. What ever happened to using natural cover? Or practicing shooting well enough to be able to take that long shot?!!! Like Oldhammy1!

I don't knock the long shot. If you're good enough and that's what's needed in your environment - So Be It.

Now we're getting off topic and this thread will probably be closed. Might be a good thing.

Good hunting in the future Hammy!

-Steve

[eliphalet]

If I was looking for more power/FPS than my '06 I would take a good hard look at the Remington Ultra's in 300 and 7 mag.

[oldhammy1]

(Usually it is very close range that light bullets tend to have problems out of a 300 Win Mag or larger. I have seen quite a few fragment in deer at ranges less than 100 yards. The 300 was never really desined for light bullets. 165gr would be my bare minimum starting point. I would personally stick to 180 as it should carry enough "umph" to effectivly push through a deer's vitals out at longe range. I would also shy away from bullets like the Balistic Tip as they are known fragmenters. Even at long range, they will fragment if they hit bone. Fine for the range, but not fair to the animal. Accubonds or Interbonds may be your best bet for long range as they are very accurate bullets, but designed to stay together. Best of luck.)

Fantastic advice! Thanks Michael. I am thinking about starting out with 168 grain nosler accubond's.

Just as a side note for those who have had issues with my shot (and thanks for those that gave me compliments), let me share two experiences:

Last year, the whitetail buck I shot was at 225 yards, one shot one kill just behind the kneck through the spine. So much for not being able to get close.

This year, hunting with my son- Opening morning we spot two nice bucks at about 300 yards. I could have set him up and told him to start lobbing in lead, but it was not an ethical shot, given that he is 10 years old and does not have significant experiece with the .270 he was using. So we attempted to get closer, almost got a shot when we closed the distance to 175 yards, but they gave us the slip around the hill at the last minute. I feel much better about teaching him principles of safety, patience, and ethical hunting instead of just hoping he would connect by dumb luck. No tag filled three days later, but some great time together, and lifelong memories made.

-Hammy

[Geno]

Art:

You have a 26" barrel Wby Mk V?? Lucky guy! I had one of those (a Fibermark) back in 1989, but sold it when I went to doctoral school full-time. I used to nail 2-liter pop bottles at 500 yards in the local gravel pit with it. That was an excellent rifle, and for certain one I regret selling!

Doc2005

[marksman13]

I can't understand for the life of me why some people get all worked up over someone on an inernet forum yanking their chain. Hammy, just hunt the way you want and don't let the know-it-all, been there-done that types drag you down. I can appreciate all types of hunting. Different strokes for different folks. I've hunted bean fields, food plots, corn feeders, and stalked through the Great Smokey mountains. I loved all of them. I hunt with a compound bow, a 30-30, a 308 and a 243. The bottom line is that we are all after the same game. We enjoy the experiences differently. That is what makes us hunters, the experiences. We have all had a squirrel bust us in the middle of a stalk, or had a wiley old doe blow and wheeze at us until our hair stood up, or had our heart stopped by a covey of flushing quail in the middle of a stalk. There's no need for us to thump our chests or push our ethics on another. Just enjoy the time you spend outdoors doing things your way. The riff raff will fall in line shortly.

[oldhammy1]

(I can't understand for the life of me why some people get all worked up over someone on an inernet forum yanking their chain. Hammy, just hunt the way you want and don't let the know-it-all, been there-done that types drag you down. I can appreciate all types of hunting. Different strokes for different folks. I've hunted bean fields, food plots, corn feeders, and stalked through the Great Smokey mountains. I loved all of them. I hunt with a compound bow, a 30-30, a 308 and a 243. The bottom line is that we are all after the same game. We enjoy the experiences differently. That is what makes us hunters, the experiences. We have all had a squirrel bust us in the middle of a stalk, or had a wiley old doe blow and wheeze at us until our hair stood up, or had our heart stopped by a covey of flushing quail in the middle of a stalk. There's no need for us to thump our chests or push our ethics on another. Just enjoy the time you spend outdoors doing things your way. The riff raff will fall in line shortly.)

AMEN!

It just is a little frustrating with all of the know it all's questioning every motive and word typed, except for contributing to the actual question posted. Believe me, I do my thing, and if others don't like it they can KMA. I was genuinely trying to get some advice, and felt like I had to filter through some of the "riff raff"(as you call it) to get there. With guys like you and a few others that posted, my faith in THR is begining to return.

[AKCOP]

"Last year, the whitetail buck I shot was at 225 yards, one shot one kill just behind the kneck through the spine. So much for not being able to get close."

Well I guess if you shoot at 600+ yds 225 yds is close. Once when I was much younger I shot a deer at 365 paces, got him in the neck, one shot kill just like you. Great shot, great story, but the problem was that is not where I was aiming. Not cutting you down for taking such a shot just saying I would never take such a shot. Good hunting and Merry Christmas

[eliphalet]

Hammy1,
I kinda feel like I owe you an apology. I vented on your thread about something that has me irritated from another. I shouldn't have. Apology's are offered.

[MCgunner]

Hunting Western sage brush or shooting across mountain canyons isn't much like lots of hunting East of the Rockies from what I have read about it, and that having the ability to make a long distance shot when called for is a very good thing.

There are those that hunt with primitive weapons, ya know, BP or sticks and strings. There's more'n one way to skin a cat. :D Some chose the high road, some the low, so long as they get to the same spot in the end I reckon it's all good. Me, I ain't worth a toot with a stick and a string, but some guys enjoy it. I'm like that buzzard sittin' on the tree top sayin' "Patience hell, I'm gonna KILL somethin'!". :D But, I do like the season set up for BP in New Mexico and that's what I think I'll do next time I go out there. Might not be successful, but at least I got a month to try. The way they run the rifle seasons out there, you wanna hunt opening season, you get ONE WEEKEND, two days. :rolleyes: And, it's in November when the weather gets a little harsh. That's fine if you're in a motorhome, but us po boys with tents, well.....:D

[eliphalet]

It ain't all long distance shootin MC, that's for durn sure. I've shot deer at 50 feet or less with centerfire in the sagebrush. Shot my elk last fall with a muzzle loader at 60 to 80 yards at the most, in a old growth thick conifer forest. Buddy that was with me last year did again this year. Unfortunately my plans were changed for me, and I couldn't go this fall.

We've ruined the man's thread for sure I fear.
If I was planning on shooting long distance much I would probably use a heaver bullet than the 150's I always use now. If your gonna hit critters way out there heaver bullets will have more down range retained energy.

[MCgunner]

Did you see the history channel today, talking about snipers? One of the episodes had the Brit snipers and they were using a .338 round that was NOT belted. I've since been told it was the .330 Laupa. It sounded like a dandy long range thumper, but probably more than a coues deer would take. LOL Awesome looking round and rifle they were firing it from, though.

[~z]

sympathetic...check your PM.
~z

[Art Eatman]

Doc, I started out with the '06 back when the mountains hadn't grown so danged high; sporterized an old 1917 Enfield when I was a kid. I learned through the years that longer barrels work better. So, around 1970 I went looking to build a custom rifle. My idea was for a Mark 10 action; Shilen barrel. Shilen got all back-ordered. I was reading through a Weatherby catalog and spotted an option for the Mark V, a "#2 profile, 26" barrel in .30-'06..." etc., etc.

Got one. German made. $315 out the door. I replaced the trigger with a Canjar. Messed around with the forearm bedding. I could see pretty good, back then, and with 150-grain handloads I could slow-fire ten-shot groups of around 7/8" to 1-1/8" off my 100-yard benchrest. 3x9x40 Leupold Vari-X II. I guess I've run some 4,000 rounds through Ol' Pet. :) I guess it's fair to say we're "all married up". :D We've had some involuntarily quick trips down some mountainsides, for sure...

Art

[Floppy_D]

I bet the sound of the impact took forever to get back to you. :D

[Geno]

German made?! <<sniff, sniff!!>> Mine was from Japan, but all the same beautiful...but mine was not German. :(

I also had one of the first USA made Mark Vs in .270 Winchester, but the kicker, it was the 9-lug, not the 6-lug version. :D Unfortunately, the .270 Win had the 24" barrel. Like a knuckle-head, I sold it back at the time I had my neck fused...thought I'd never hunt again.

Now, I can't find any for sale. :( But, I keep looking.

Doc2005

[stownsend]

I shoot a 300 Win Mag and have been playing around with the different factory bullet weights in the past few years. I used to use a 180 grain Winchester Ballistic Tip with great success on whitetail. This year I tried the 150 grain Winchester XP3. I worried about the smaller bullet fragmenting on close range shots, but after reading about the construction of this bullet I wasn't as worried. I shot my deer this fall at maybe 30 yards and the bullet held together and exited perfectly.
If you are really looking for the longer ranges, I would stick with the 180 grain, maybe look at some of the 165's. I think the 150's are too short to be viable at the longer ranges, but I am sure it could be done.

[41 Mag]

oldhammy1,

You sound a lot like myself, interested in putting the best you can into what your doing. Here in my part of Texas, I have grown up hunting in many different surroundings. When I was just starting out at 6yrs old we hunted over corn feeders in the hill country where more than 20 deer would pile in when they went off. For me it was a learning experience in how to shoot one, not so much of how to bait one in. The ranch we hunted had to take so many of the does off each year to sustain a population that wouldn't over run the natural vegitation.

As I grew I hunted hardwood forest, swamp bottoms and river bottoms as well. No feeders but an occaisional food plot. The plots were there to add to the deers overal minerals and as additional food for them and were not generally hunted over.

Bringing my grandson into hunting I set up a feeder to enable him to have not only a more stable shot on the animal but also to allow him to see more game while out. We have only taken feral hogs under the feeder so far and he is two for two on that. Being he just turned 6 this past Thanksgiving I figure he isn't doing to bad. He also scored a yote out just over 150yds as well. He uses a Ruger Compact in .308 with reduced load put together by me. A couple of weeks back I upped the dosage on the loads and brought him up from a 125gr bullet @ 2200fps to a 130gr bullets @ 2570fps. This will help him to reach out a little more efficiently on a couple of deer we have had to pass on due to the load he was shooting.

In your case, if I were looking to do what your looking into I would take a good look at the Barnes TSX, they are a bit pricey but the preformance I have gotten and heard reported from other reliable sources has been wonderful. THe Accubond or Interbond are also great as well. The thing with the TSX is that you can drive them to a tad higher velocity per weight than normally constructed bullets, and the recoil isn't as amplified. This was one of the considerations I had to deal with on the little Ruger for the grandson, since the rifle only weighs 6.5 pounds field ready, and the kid is only about 65 pounds.

I know you mentioned wanting a 300 Win mag, but also consider using the newer 300 WSSM or the 300 RUM as well. With either you do not have to deal with the belted case. Both will drive anything from 165 - 200grs easily to velocities you will need for extended range shooting. One thing on the RUM is that Remington also loads three different power level factory loads for it as well. One is close to '06 velocities, the second is a middle ground around the .300 Win and the last is their top end loads which are pretty awesome. As for recoil yes the RUM has it and if your not against a brake, they make this a very tame critter. I would suggest looking up Definsive Edge and getting in touch with Shawn Carlock. He has built a brake which is very well adapted to these type rifles and his work is outstanding. I have personally shot a RUM with up to 240gr bullets ripping out at max velocities and the recoil is light enough to see your impacts at 500yds through a 15x Nightforce.

I also understand your way of thinking on the close verses long shots. Most of my hunting is in river bottoms but I also hunt our family farm. In the bottoms we might get 100yds if yoiu thread the needle, on our farm your looking across flat hay fields whick if the deer is at 450yds well thats as close as your gonna get ot him unless he walks your way, which don't happen very often. I am an accomplished shot out to 500yds easily with several of my rifles in varoius conditions. my longest shot on a whit4etail was just over 400 yds using my 25-06 and a 115gr Partition. I know this load and rifle inside and out and it was not a problem to hit exactly where I was aiming under the conditions I shot in. The deer was standing perfectly still relaxed and eating, the sun was illuminating him and everything around him, the wind was non existant, and after the break of the trigger I recovered the sight picture just as the bullet impacted right in front of his left shoulder dumping him on the spot. Could I have gotten closer, possibly had there not been two dozen or more deer in the field. However in some situations there isn't that choice, and if you shoot your rifles at ranges way beyond what you ever ecpect to shoot, then every once in a while, you don't have to watch that buck of a lifetime walk out of sight due to you not being sure of yourself.

I wish you all the luck in your endeaver and hope that which ever you choose it is a shooter for you.

[Art Eatman]

One thing about worrying about range limitations: It's the shooter, not the rifle, most generally. If somebody takes the time to really get to know his equipment, and actually practices out in Ma Bell territory, long shots aren't really that big a deal.

The advent of laser range finders creates a whole new world. I guess my own sense of a range limit has to do with wind conditions much more than just distance as such.

As example, at my 500-yard range, I've figured "stiff breeze" but not thought of it as very much wind--but I had to hold right at two feet upwind to centerpunch the target. Guesstimating the four feet of drop wasn't any big deal.

But it seems to me that a scope with very high-quality adjustments becomes a necessity. With tables, cranking the crosshairs "just right" beats guesstimating four or six feet of holdover. :)

[Harve Curry]

Now that range finders are reliable I use a Leica for shooting the 45-70 or 56-50. If you have elevation all dialed in , wind is what will get you. A 10mph cross wind can make the difference between a miss and a hit at 100 yards with those calibers. Further out with modern cartridges will do the same, so that has to be considered before the shot is taken. Look at the grass or some other indicator next to the animal in your scope or spotting scope is better. I pack a heavy spotting scope, 25-75x90mm to see details.

[41 Mag]

Art your totally right about the wind being the worst part of it. When I began working out beyond 300yds, it was a whole new experience. I knew the ballistics and what the bullets were supposed to do, but when you throw in a gusting wind over a steady one it makes your learning curve that much more abrupt.

Fortunately I have access to plenty of property in which to wring out shots to as far as I feel comfortable. It is definately humbling to start out a group in perfect conditions at around 1" at 500 only to have a small 3-5 mph breeze come up and blow it for you. However it does teach you a lot about watching the surroundings and what moves in that condition and what doesn't. Then by paying attention to the various native plants and how they react in known winds, you can pretty well get close enough to make a first shot kills on most game animals in the deer class size. Now with posket wind meters and range finders the prepared hunters are using the ranges in which kills are being made is also increasing. My best group with one particular rifle is just under 10" at 1150yds. Would I shoot a deer this far, nope but I would definately drop him at 800 easily with that rifle, and under the proper conditions.

I can see both sides of the coin here as well. But what gets me the most is like what hammy said, he simply asked a question about bullets, he wasn't looking for personal hunting ethics or opinions simply bullets.

I have been there myself in posting about making a long distance shot on hogs. Some folks and areas consider them to be a valued game animal, however here they are no better,( other than eating), than a gofer, field mouse, or prairie dog. They aren't native and they are totally destructive to the whole enviroment they inhabit. State can't control them, everybody wants them until they have them, folks want to come in and hunt them but since the frivilious lawsuits abound nobody will let them so it's a catch 22. WE shoot them on site and take the ones we can and leave the rest. To some it's a waste, to most here, it's good riddence and why didn't you get more.

[taylorce1]

Well I'll admit to taking a shot beyond 500 yards on deer and I got it. It isn't a shot I'd like to repeat all the time but not one I'd necessarily pass up either. I like to be a lot closer, but I've practiced with this rifle and cartridge a lot and plugging coyotes at 400+ has never been a problem for me with this rifle. I don't hunt heavy woods or any thing like that but mainly wide open plains and sometimes you just can't close the gap. If I've done everything I can to get closer and it isn't possible and I take that long shot, then I feel I've still hunted the animal and not just sniped it.

[Quigley]

The 30-06 and 300 Mag are capable at this range however at this range they are marginal for game of that size. I'm glad your shot hit its mark and you got your quarry. The 168 and 180 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 3000FPS falls to 1200-1300 lbs of energy at that range the minimum required for a clean kill on a deer sized game is 1000. The optimum game weight for this round at 600 yards with the 168 grain bullet is 252 lbs the optimum game weight for the 180 grain is 289 lbs. Game bigger than a deer are an absolute no-no at this range. If you are comfortable shooting at this range I hope you are equally comfortable walking the 600 yards to make sure you hit or missed your target.

[~z]

"The optimum game weight for this round at 600 yards with the 168 grain bullet is 252 lbs"

So it would not work on a 253 lb animal?

If you shoot long range, shoot long range. If you dont, dont.
~z

[oldhammy1]

Quigley,

Please start from the begining and read the ENTIRE thread. I hunt coues whitetail deer, that max out at 160 lbs. It is rare that they are more than 120 lbs. Re-run your numbers, and let me know where I stand.

[Harve Curry]

The coues I used to hunt south of Oracle Arizona were big at 100 pounds. Some I killed were 80-85 pounds.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is shooting up or down hills. If it ranges 600 yards down a steep slope, it may only be 500 yards across the face of the earth, which is the distance that matters. So you'd figure that in and shoot for 500 in that case.

The coues I shot at 625 yards was downhill, hold over was for a 500 yard shot. The 150gr, 308 Win SP Hornady bullet entered right side behind the shoulder, came out the breast hitting the heart, and broke off the left front leg. That and some others gave me alot of respect for the damage a bullet can do.

[~z]

Wow, you must have been way up there!
~z

[Wildfire]

Hey There:
I am not going to get into the yardage issue and ethics. I am a long distance shooter and do not want to go there. But as I read some of these I found the ballistics to be sort of off. The 165 grain BT. and the 180 grainer both at the same muzzle velocity have very little difference in remaining velocity and or energy at 600 yards. Their trajectories are right at about 2" difference in fall. What very little more energy left by the 180 at that distance will not amount to much on that Deer. Hopefully, This will not start some sort of arguement because someone did not read this right.:uhoh:
The .300 Win mag may be a better choice for that kind of range.
Precission shot placement is the only way to ethically take a shot at that distance. No hold overs. Scope adjustments to exact yardages. Yes.....
If you are using a BDC scope it must match that round exactly or you are still guessing. Then you need to figure in the wind. Once you are dead nuts sure.
You must now remember that energy at that range is on the marginal side at best.:eek: Other than that sounds like you did it, at least once.

[Guns_and_Labs]

There are guys over at http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/index.php who know a lot more than I about the bullets to choose for a given caliber for long range hunting. And they will not comment on the distances involved.

I do know that the trick, at least for me, is to get the highest BC. Which is why I've stuck with 7mm and 6.5mm. With a really long, ULD bullet, like Richard Graves' Wildcat Bullets, the 7mm Firebird (Lazzeroni) is hard to beat, though I keep meaning to upgrade to a 7mm Allen Magnum. Likewise in the 6.5mm. For the .300WinMag, you might want to see what the custom bullet makers like Graves can provide. But then, with those bullets, you may need a custom twist barrel and potentially a custom chamber/throat.

[oldhammy1]

Thanks Wildfire,

You and I are exactly on the same page!

[Quigley]

I'm sorry for assuming you where hunting whitetails...
Here your figures.
At 600 yards the 180 grain with MV of 3000 FPS falls to 611 Ft Lbs and has an optimal game weight of 92 lbs.
At 600 yards the 168 grain with MV of 3000 FPS falls to 570 Ft Lbs and has an optimal game weight of 80 lbs.

I congratulate you on your shot!

[oldhammy1]

Quigley,

Thanks for the adjustment. I am wondering which bullet type you are using in your calculations. When I use rem shoot with a nosler balistic tip(180 grain), I get

600 yards= 1532 ft-lbs
800 yards= 1132 ft-lbs
1000 yards= 732 ft-lbs

I will need to go to handloads.com to look up the 165 data, as rem shoot doesn't show any.


I have found that using a ballistic tip bullet makes all the difference in the world out past 350 yards.

Hammy

[Wildfire]

Hey again.
The higher specs look right to me . Don't know where the low specs came from but they are too low. My .308 has more energy then that at 600 yards.
Anyway. Every one is thinking now.:)
Still watching.

[stovepipe699]

OLDHAMMY1, I think the 165 grain bullets could work just fine in a 300 Win Mag. I shoot a 30-06 with 165 BTSP's and the whitetail I shot at 420 yards dropped very nicely. My neighbour shot a BIG 7x7 whitetail buck at 700 yards with a 300 wby mag. The bullet used was a BarnesX 165 gr and it went right through the boiler room. The deer only made it 20 yards. He has since rechambered to 300 Ultra mag. For shooting purposes , I have been told that a heavier bullet would be better for long range(better B.C.). I imagine you want the 165(rather than 180) because of the smaller size of the coues deer. I say try 165 and 180 bullets, and see how they shoot, and how they kill. My opinion is that a heavier bullet than necessary for the size of animal should work fine(better too heavy than too light).

[oldhammy1]

Took the 300 out during the break with some factory Federal 150's. Chrono'd them at 3400 f/s. I plan on loading some 165's this weekend. I am using nosler balistic tips, with CCI 250 LRM primers, and 73 grains of IMR 4350. I am expecting somewhere around 3225 f/s, and we will see how tight the groups are. This load is a little on the hot side, so I will probably load a handful with a grain or two less, in case my groups are not holding with the higher pressures. Thanks for all your replies/advice.

[moosehunt]

Nobody has mentioned going up to 200gr. I wonder why. Not as flat, true, but at long range, that's not the issue. As I'm sure the shooter who started this (yes, I said shooter, but he is a hunter too; just word choice) well knows, it is knowing your shooter and knowing the range. A 200 grain, while a bit slower, tends to get more consistant at longer range and wind effect, while far from being eliminaterd, is indeed reduced. Might be worth a thought, even though I am well aware you only asked for 165-168 info.

[Art Eatman]

Messing around at my 500-yard range with my '06, I found no particular difference in trajectory among the Sierras: 150-grain SPBT; 165-grain HPBT, and 180-grain SPBT. I had zeroed with the 150s.

26" barrel; probably around 3,000 ft/sec for the 150s.

FWIW, Art

[oldhammy1]

So ART,

How is your grouping at 500 yards? Just curious.

Update- I loaded up 50 165 gr nosler balistic tips, and went out and shot up 20 of them. I also added a limbsaver recoil pad, which made life a little easier. Shoots great! The trigger pull is a little heavy, so I plan on replacing it with a basix in the near future. Until then, it will be hard to really know how tight the load is grouping. For those of you that want to see what a world record coues whitetail deer looks like, go to cousewhitetail.com, click on discussion forum, and then click on hunting in mexico. This will give you a feel for how the largest coues is more in line with a medium to small sized mulie or easter whitetail. Thanks for all your help. Eventually I plan on doing some comparisons with 150, 165, and 180's. For now, just trying to get set up.

[.38 Special]

Just a few of points, none of which should be taken personally...

I'm a hunter of the western "wide open spaces" and tend not to buy into the "It's impossible to get any closer!" bit I occasionally hear from fellow westerners. A patient stalker can almost always get within 300 yards of prairie game, including pronghorn. Most of the people I've known to say "You can't get that close!" have never really tried.

Along the same lines, just about all the "Hail Mary" shots I've seen attempted were ill-advised, and met with results from poor to unacceptable. I'd bet that's the usual outcome of such affairs.

The people who are reliably capable of making such shots are generally not the sort to show up at a website asking basic questions about ballistics.

The OP may, of course, be an exception to all of the above. It would be a rare enough exception, IMO, to explain the somewhat rough treatment he's recieved here.

[Art Eatman]

1970 vintage Weatherby Mark V; 26" '06. Simmons 44Mag 3x10. Canjar trigger. About 4,000 rounds through the rifle, give or take a hundred or three. The rifle has pretty much been a 3/4 MOA critter since new; 1-1/4 MOA for ten-shot groups.

I got two four-shot groups with the 165-grain bullets of four inches each at the 500 yards. (Well, twelve rounds got used up in getting the scope adjusted. Once that scope is set, it's fine. Getting there is not half the fun.)

I ran a string of ten rounds of 180s, not real slow but not hurried. I called two fliers and had eight shots in six inches.

I later changed from 4064 to H414 with the 180s, and got a three-shot group at 100 yards of 0.4 MOA. Prior groups had run about 3/4 MOA. (This new load is what Justin used on his elk.)

Hope this helps,

Art

[oldhammy1]

Art- Thanks for the info.

.38 Special- If you go back and read how this thread started, all I asked for was some simple advice. I gave some background as to why I was looking for some help. What I got, for the most part( aside from a few who did help), was literally attacked and pre-judged for my shot this last season. I did not ask for this, but since it was offered, I decided to defend myself. The debate can go on and on. When all is said and done, each hunter has to decide what his limits are, and make decisions that he/she has to live with. These decisions, as long as within the hunting regulations/laws of the state, are up to the individual hunter. I actually agree with most of your post, believe it or not, I just think there is really something to be said for disagreeing with someone, and doing it in a respectful way. In the end, remember, all I was asking for was some caliber and ballistics information.

[.38 Special]

Fair enough, mate. I just hoped to provide some perspective. Personally speaking, I'm about the most mellow, laid-back person you could ever meet IRL, but get genuinely upset at people who are willing to cause suffering to stroke their own egos -- not that I'm calling anyone out here at THR.

I suppose I really should try to give the benefit of doubt to folks who talk about their long-range shots at THR. Every last one of them may actually be capable and competent marksmen. It's just that I've met too many folks who talk big about their long-range prowess and then end up gut-shooting some poor critter at ranges that turned out to be way beyond their ability with a rifle. Nothing would make me happier than if we all stopped holding out long-range hunting shots as an important or desirable thing.

Huh. Here I've gone and got myself all worked up again.

[oldhammy1]

Thanks .38.

I was thinking a little about this last night, and I wanted to bring up a couple of scenarios.

1. You are still hunting, alone, through some rough terrain, and a nice buck jumps out of a shadow and runs full blast up the hill. You have about 8 seconds to shoot before the opportunity is gone. Your range is 50 yards. Do you take the shot?

2. You are glass up a nice buck on a hill side, ranged at 300 yards. You are alone. He is walking at a steady pace, and you most likely have a couple of minutes time to take the shot. Do you take the shot?

3. You are glassing, and find a nice buck on the hill side at 600 yards. You have two friends on glass to spot for you. Wind is calm, you have a steady rest, and the buck is not moving. Several deep canyons separate you from the buck. Do you take the shot?


Assumptions- Your rifle caliber and load provides enough knock down energy at the three distances. You have practiced shooting at the three distances, and know the ballistics of your load, and your ability to make a reasonably accurate shot at that range. Your terrain allows for a clear shot. You have sufficient backdrop, so as to allow for a safe shot.

I could be wrong, but from what I have seen here, most would not have a problem with scenario 1 or 2. However, IMO, these two scenarios provide a greater risk of poor shot placement and recovery of the animal. There is even a topic in the current hunting forum about hunting deer with a 10 mm. Read it and see how many are bragging about how many deer they have killed at 50+ yards. For some reason, that seems to be just fine. I am not trying to say my shot is one others should take. On the contrary, most should not. My post in no way encourages others to shoot at any game at these distances. If you really step back and read what was initially asked, I am trying to put myself in a position where I have a greater chance of making a clean kill, whether at 50 or 550 yards.

In the end, I respect both sides of the arguement, and appreciate those that have posted.

[.38 Special]

1. You are still hunting, alone, through some rough terrain, and a nice buck jumps out of a shadow and runs full blast up the hill. You have about 8 seconds to shoot before the opportunity is gone. Your range is 50 yards. Do you take the shot?
Well, my first thought in that scenario is "Oops". When I still hunt, I consider "jumping" a buck to be a failure. Regardless, the answer to the question is "depends". There are times when I've been able to practice at a moving target and have gotten comfortable with lead. At the moment, though, I'm years out of practice. There's a good chance I'd pass on the shot and chide myself for having been careless enough to "jump" that buck in the first place.

2. You are glass up a nice buck on a hill side, ranged at 300 yards. You are alone. He is walking at a steady pace, and you most likely have a couple of minutes time to take the shot. Do you take the shot?
No chance. I'm glad you pointed out the risk of that scenario. Most hunters, in my experience, don't truly realize how far in front of your bullet that animal will be by the time it gets there.

3. You are glassing, and find a nice buck on the hill side at 600 yards. You have two friends on glass to spot for you. Wind is calm, you have a steady rest, and the buck is not moving. Several deep canyons separate you from the buck. Do you take the shot?
Nope. I've practiced extensively at ranges past 500 yards, and given realistic scenarios -- unknown distance, broken ground, field position (rather than a bench rest), etc. I can't make the first cold, clean shot with more than a 75% chance of connecting with the vital zone. That isn't nearly good enough. YMMV, of course.

[Art Eatman]

A lot of the deal about how one hunts or shoots has to do with how you were raised and how your folks did all that.

My father and his brother were exceptional shots--but to me, their abilities were normal and expected. So, I took it for granted that "That's the way you do it."

My father was known, in front of witnesses, to call a neck shot at 500 yards, offhand, and make it. Or kill running deer at well over 100 to 200 yards. I pretty-much naturally assumed that if I couldn't do that, something was wrong with me.

My uncle locked up the brakes of the jeep, stalling it and grabbing for his rifle. He'd seen a buck running toward a fenceline in front of us, at about 125 yards. He shot and broke the buck's neck as it jumped the fence.

For me, then, the idea of a neck shot on a standing-around gawking sort of buck is no big deal. Shooting at a running buck at a couple of hundred yards is just a basic thing. Making a successful shot at 300 or 400 yards is what I'm SUPPOSED to be able to do. That's just the basics, is all.

And sometimes all that Zen stuff is within my capabilities. :D

Art

[plumberroy]

Hammy I have never shot a 300 win mag but have shot a 7.mm mag alot and I shoot a 22-250 now a bunch I do better at longer ranges with heavier for caliber bullets I shoot 60 grain hp's @3500 fps in my 22-250 [heaviest explosive bullet I;ve found] a I give up a little less hold over for more energy way out there. As far as your take the shot questions first Since I now live in a shotgun only state for the last 10 year I don't get to practice as much as I use to with a rifle #1. 50yard and moving fast my go to hunting rifle is a 45/70 handi-rifle 3x9 scope I know this rifle like the back of my hand I shoot groundhog with it just to get to use it once in a while I can make that shot, can do it with my rifled slug gun to I know this because all coyotes are shot at [with in reason] most don't make it I don't think i would try it with my 338
it just does not handle like my singleshot # 2. peice of cake with my 338 win mag my load is 7-8" low from sight in, at that range sport hunting I would pass on that shot with my 45/70 If I needed the meat to feed my family I would take that shot (see the I know this gun like the back of mt hand part) #3 nope can it be done? no doubt I have not spent enough time behind the rifle to be confident of the shot
I don't have a problem with some who is willing to learn his rifle and load taking long shots within the capability of the rifle witch after reading the thread you seem to do only thing I said in other threads is that some people claim it is the only way it can be done
roy

[sscoyote]

OldHammy, don't worry about some of the comments. These forums are seen by many with opinions thruout the world, and u just have to filter thru the opinions to select what u need. Everyone that's been hunting awhile knows that Coues hunting is often a long-range affair.

I've heard that Hornady is supposed to be coming out with a big 30 cal. 200 gr. A-Max soon. I'd call them and see what the story is on it. Should have a BC that's up there somewhat, but it may require a faster twist than is in your Rem. now. I'd drive the highest BC bullet at the highest accurate velocity possible. The 162 A-Max 7mm is also a good choice. Get out and shoot your steel, etc., make changes to dope if needed and go hunting.

Here's a portable steel system if u're interested. It's the 1st pic in the article. U may be interested in this system. Go out to the local brickyard and see if they have some used cinder block molds (like u see in the photo). Usually they'll give u some free. It's the best cheap steel we've ever shot at.

www.ihmsa.net/Dakota_XP.pdf

[moooose102]

if you want to talk about a "luckshot", my father took a deer at 3/4 of a mile with this pre 64 model 70 in 300 H&H magnum, WITH OPEN SIGHTS! killed it with the first shot. NOT just a story! as for the 300 win mag and bullet weight. i own a 300 win mag, and i definatly prefer 180 + weight bullets, boat tails are great. but i just bought some old style 180 gr Silvertips (my favorite hunting bullet) to hunt with, not boat tails, but they will get the job dome!