[DrDremel]

Does anybody else think that $200.00 for a FLASHLIGHT is crazy. I don't care how much light it throws. It is not really that much more complex or expensive to make compared to a normal maglight or such. Yeah they are smaller than a similar normal flashlight, but not to justify a 1000% increase in price. I have never been in a situation where i have found myself saying "I would give $180.00 for a flashlight that is double the power. I could see double the maglite prices but not 1000%. Are they made of kevlar reinforced platinum/gold mix with Titanium bushings or something. Can somebody explain why they cost that much more? It is not that I don't have the money, just that I would feel like I was robbed if somebody tried to scam me for $200.00 for a flashlight.

[Spark]

CNC Machining. R&D. Power to weight to size ratio. Convenience of carry. Durability.

When you own the market, you can set your own prices.

[hksw]

Well, why would anyone buy a SIG P210-5 over a CZ-75B? Both throw lead down range pretty well.

Some folks just like the higher quality and performance (no matter how big or small, real or perceived). This is true in any subject, guns, knives, flashlights, cars, electronics, etc.

You should check out the Candle Power Forum (http://www.candlepowerforums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?Cat=). There are some real hardcore flashaholics over there. Learned a lot concerning hand held light emitters on that site.

[444]

I think you are kind of overstating things. Yes, Surefire HAS flashlights that cost $200 and more, but most of the popular Surefire lights are far less than that.
I use two of them every day at work. One was $44, and the other was $80 something.
I have seen someone on this very board selling one model for less than $40.

[Navy joe]

My $250 model has already defused one little problem that would have been less controlled without a light. The fact that the guy turned around twice in a circle tells me the light was a deciding factor. Maybe a maglite woulda got it done, but I don't care, the light pays for itself.

I don't have to worry about batteries dying in the light, it's easier to use, brighter, and the lamp more durable. And Skunkabilly has one. What's not to like?

[444]

I mean, Skunkabilly ?

I can feel comforable with my decision now.

[Prodigalshooter]

Heck, look at Oakley, they have been making a killing for years! I love their product, but I realize they re-couped their R&D years ago. But they have managed to achieve the same thing that Surefire has come to more recently, which is that indefinable "cachet" that overcomes price. AND...
A real quality product with a great warranty will command top prices always. None of us should talk anyway, we all are pretty "spendy" in the weapons/tactical market!
I mean, look at my CC balance! Oh, no, nevermind, I'd only be embarrassed:rolleyes:

[Soap]

Then make a flashlight as good as the Surefires but for less than $30. This is America, when you believe a product can be done better and more efficiently, do it.

[Skunkabilly]

.

[Psssniper]

... . . . ... . . . ... . . . ... . . . ...

[444]

He is so tactical that his entire post and the plans for the new top secret base are hidden in what appears to the naked eye to be a period.

[TarpleyG]

If you look really, really hard, you'll see there's an entire paragraph contained within that "period."

GT

[Soap]

Microdots rock! :D

[Hutch]

I'll bang the drum (again) for the Brinkmann LX available at WalMart for 20 bux. Comes with the batts, and has a beam equal to the SureFire 2-cell models costing 2X-4X.

I just wish the rest of the market place would catch up with holsters, holders, etc. appropriate to the LX size.:(

[G&R Tactical]

As a SF owner for years and now a SF dealer, I would say that some of their gear is a bit high priced. What you are paying for is continued R&D, fully filled Xenon gas bulbs (which is the most expensize of the inert gases), hard anodized finish (which is only done at a couple places in the country, excellent customer service and they stand behind their products. I generally sell SF gear 20%-25% off retail so the prices aren't quite so bad if you buy from me! :D Let's not forget that SF has the CHEAPEST 123A batteries on the planet and are probably some of the best quality. They have also been pushing the LED to new heights and will soon come out with LED's that will blow your mind!


Grant

[Kentucky Rifle]

It seems to be about as bright as my 3 "D" cell Mag~~and it fits in the watch pocket of my jeans! I can keep it with me ALL the time. Naturally, it was more expensive that a 3 "D" cell Mag, but you *usually* don't carry a big MagLight around. Plus, the Arc has an LED instead of a bulb. (Good for 100,000 hours.)

<shrug> Buy what you like.

KR

[shadow 1]

When it comes to the tools that might get you out of trouble one day or even save your life, I prefer to pay for the quality of the item rather than skimp and save a few bucks, my mom always used to say "you buy it cheap, you buy it twice" and when it comes to my flashlights I buy SF, they're a good group of folks who stand behind their product.
Granted there is place in my world for the Maglites, mounted in each of our closets at home for emergencies, Streamlight, have a couple in the glovebox of our cars. But for the personal everyday carry it's gotta be a SF. My wife keeps an E2E with a TID in her hand when she goes to her car afterwork and another L1 in her desk drawer at work for when she has lighter work and a G2 by the nightstand safe with a G36 to keep it company.
I personally carry the A2 everyday, an M6 in my backpack and an M3 on my tac gear.

[mtnbkr]

Hutch,

I have two of the Brinkman LX's. They are great lights, especially for the price.

Chris

[Oracle]

I just bought a Surefire G2 for $33.00. I consider that an excellent deal, considering that it throws as much light or more as one of the 4-D cell Maglites, but it fits inside my pocket. Plus, it only costs about $10.00 more than a 4-D cell Maglite. It also has features that I prefer over the Maglites, such as a permanently focused beam, and a temporary on button on the tailcap. All things considered, I think that the Surefire G2, at least, is an excellent deal.

[VaughnT]

Well, the Brinkman light I saw looked mighty cheesy compared to a Streamlight or SureFire. On the duty belt, cheesy is bad. Also had to consider that no company is making carriers for the Brinkman. Quality looked good, though.

Streamlight has a rubber coating that will shred after awhile. It's a decent light, but really needs a hard exterior. Didn't SL come out with a new line of SureFire-esque models?

My SF 6P has clean lines and throws a lot of light. I might upgrade the bulb, but am more concerned with getting a TID to mount on it.

I can't see the need for a $200 flashlight in my life, but if other folks have different circumstances, SureFire is a quality company making a quality product. Go for it.

[G&R Tactical]

The SL Scorpion is a good flashlight, but can compare in price or quality to the G2. Dollar for dollar, the G2 is hard to beat...

[Mike990]

Comments like that always amaze me. Dont like it, dont buy it. End of story I would think. But I will say from my experience no maglite approaches the size to power output of a surefire. You go outside at night and light something up with it and it is awesome. Even and focused with no hot or dark spots and very very bright. The brighter the surefire the more expensive. But after a point the added brightness is hardly needed or visible. The 2 or 3 battery models are all you need. Most have two bulbs available. For more output or longer runtime. YOur choice
The batteries last for 10 years(shelf life), so when you need it its there. Great lights IMHO.

[Northwest Cajun]

I know, It's to pay for those "free" catalogs. They look nicer than some picture books you can buy in a book store. :rolleyes:
My 2 Cents
Cajun

[c_yeager]

My streamlight doesnt have any rubber on it that i can see. Of course its a few years old (and still going strong).

[DrDremel]

I agree with the Oakley comparison. They are not special; it is more of a fashion statement. It is a status marketing concept. They are not more expensive to make, they don’t have lenses any better than others, they just price it to make it seem better. It is more a testament to marketing ability than product.

I believe that the $40 version, (Plastic) is to try to get people like me to buy one. Considering that it is the same as a $5 flashlight except for the bulb, it is priced more competitively. This suggests that they are not hitting the market as widely as they would like. I think there are a large number of people that think they are over priced.

I think a big part of their price is because they are selling to government agencies. When a hammer can be sold to them for $100, a $100 flashlight does not seem too bad. Then you get the “If the government has it, it must be the best” people. They will buy whatever the police buy, even if it does not really make sense. Like the guys with Remington 700 police models at the range shooting at 50 yards. Not doing too good but they bought it because it is the best. The government is notorious for overpaying. Does not mean I want to get ripped off too.

I think the Sig 210 to a CZ75 comparison is a little different. Tight tolerances and more machining cost money. For a flashlight this is a non issue. Then again, for a carry handgun, the cheaper does the job just fine, why buy the more expensive one?

As far as the poster that says he only buys the best equipment that is available. Do you drive a Hummer, or Viper? Do you live in an impenetrable house? Do you only practice with premium ammo? Do you only wear custom fitted clothing? Some things are not worth spending to get the most expensive. Also most expensive does not always mean best.

Somebody mentioned that they are hard anodized and that only a few places in the country can do it. That is not true. Hard anodizing is not a rare thing and there are at least hundreds of places that do hard anodizing. Most aluminum parts are anodized. It is not an especially expensive or time consuming process. The only thing I can see that would be more expensive than other flashlights is the bulb. The batteries are the real key to the performance. They are not expensive enough to make the flashlight 10 times the price of a large Maglight.

Don’t get me wrong here. I am not bashing, I simply don’t see the reason to want to pay the extra money. Show me what I am missing here.

[G&R Tactical]

There are different levels of anodizing. Class 3 anodizing is not that common....

[shadow 1]

DrD, if you were referring to me in your post about buying only the best and most expensive, if you re-read my post I said "if you buy cheap", I believe that cheap and inexpensive are two different things. I like my Surefire's, but I surf the net to get the best price, now I am going to have to check out G&R Tactical, so I find a great, long lasting, quality built, great customer service piece of gear for an inexpensive price not a cheaply built one for less money.
I do believe that there is room for the Brinkman's, Maglites, Streamlight etc, but when you do what I do and you're trying to clear a location or you want another force option, then yes it's gonna be a Surefire. And like anything else I take care of it as I do with my cars, it ain't a Hummer but it is a Land Rover, yup take it offroading all the time, that's how I get to my house. Do I shoot premium ammo? Every chance I get, I shoot and qualify with what I carry, on every one of my weapons, but I am not here to defend myself (well maybe I am) or Surefire. I work very hard for my money, which I never had alot of before, so when I choose to spend my money, I spend it wisely on quality products.
And G&R is right, there aren't many places that do Class 3 anodizing

[G&R Tactical]

AMEN SHADOW 1!

[shadow 1]

Roger That Tactical, now I have to come over to your site and see what's ya got!
:D

[G&R Tactical]

Please do! I sell a lot of items that are not on the web site (PRI, KAC to name a few). So please ask if there is something you are looking for.


Thanks,

Grant

[444]

Once again, I have to point out that the vast majority of Surefire lights are no where near ten times the cost of a Mag Lite. I know it sounds better when you are trying to make your point, but the fact is, it isn't true.
One thing that I know for a fact: I use a flashlight extensively in my job. In the 20 years that I have worked this job, I have tried a lot of flashlights. I have tried mini-mag lights, two D-Cell Mag Lites, three D-Cell Mag Lites, plastic lanterns that take the 6V lantern battery, Sabre Lights, mini LED lights that are on a keychain, LED arrays that are velcroed to the visor on my fire helmet, lights that are mounted to the sides of the fire helmet, Mag Chargers...............
Finally after about 19 years I found a flashlight that works every time I turn it on. It is very bright; it puts out far more light than another other light I have used and is a fraction of the size. It is rugged, I have never broken one, never broken a bulb. It doesn't have dark spots in the beam. The beam doesn't have to be adjusted; when I turn it on, it has the optimim beam pattern. I have never had it come on in storage so that it was dead when I tried to use it. I can put it in my back pocket and even sit on it and it is not big enough to cause me any significant discomfort.
And it is an $80 Surefire. Never once did I consider spending $80 for somthing that I use so much and is so critical to my job as being too expensive. Never once did I wish that I had saved a few bucks by buying an inferior product. Every time I pull out my flashlight, someone on the scene says that they need to buy one because it is so far superior to the one they are using.
To each his own. Some people get great satisfaction in trying to save a few bucks, other consider this false economy. Some people never know that a far better product exists and struggle on with what they have. I am happy that I am not a member of that group.
Not only was I not put off by the price, but since my enlightenment, I have purchased four other Surefire lights and will probably get a couple more. I have also bought two others and given them as presents. To me, a flashlight is a valuable item. When you need one, really NEED one, you want one that works. That is why I gave them as presents. It may someday save someone a lot of frustration or it may someday save their life.

[G&R Tactical]

Well put 444!

[Intune]

Okay, so how 'bout a group buy of 10 or 20 G2's! I'm in! :D

[G&R Tactical]

I would be in! I could do $25.00 apiece + $4.00 shipping if everyone paid with a USPS money order or paid 2% for PayPal use.... :D

Grant

[VaughnT]

I'm in on a G2 group-buy. At $25 per unit, I'll take four (4), maybe six (6), depending on how soon we can make this happen. What would it cost to upgrade to the 6P?

One factor that is constantly brought up about the SF lights is that they are so small compared to other lights. I like that the batteries last near on forever and the fact that I can carry the 6P in a pocket without feeling weighed down. I can't imagine what it would take to break one.

For duty use, I wanted a light what was good (possibly a mini-mag), but which could also be operated by one hand. A twist-on light like the Maglite just doesn't work fast when you need it. They are also rather fragile and I've had far too many instances where the batteries went to pot while inside the light. I love them for the spare bulb carrier, but that's about where it ends. For the same length as the mini-mags, I can have a nicely built SF 6P that I know will take the abuse of daily carry but will work when I need it to.

Don't like to spend money where I don't have to, but this isn't one of those places.

[mrstang01]

G&R, what about discounts on the regular 6P's? I'm interested, and I bet there will be some more folks too!

Thanks!

[Chugach]

Why buy a Surefire?

Ever have an encounter that raised the hackles on your neck and you needed a light quickly?

We own a small cabin on 10 acres about 75 miles outside of Anchorage. I stepped outside it last fall to take a leak. At my most vulnerable moment, a large animal started crashing through the brush just yards away. I knew that it was probably either a moose or a black bear, but my eyes weren't adapted to the dark yet so all I had was noise to go by.

Out of reflex, my next actions were to (attempt to) draw my SIG P220 .45 and point it at the noise while simultaneously trying to draw, turn on, and focus an AA-size Mini MagLite. What a goat rope! Even after I got it turned on and focused (using 1 and 1/2 hands), the light output was too dim and there was that dead spot in the center of the beam.

I backed to the cabin, grabbed my 12 gauge and my SF Z2, then stepped back out. Can't tell you how comforting it was to have a lot of light to sweep the brush, and it only took one hand to manipulate the control.

In truth, the critter was probably just as rattled as I was and was long gone. Given the conditions and my slow, relaxed reflexes, they're wasn't a lot I could have done if it had wanted to walk all over me. Lesson learned...I'm not so blissfully unaware anymore, even when all is quiet in the "neighborhood".

Don't get me wrong...I have at least a dozen MagLite's collected over the years that are scattered over the house, in the cars, and at the cabin. I've also got 3 SureFires, and one stays on my hip now. Somebody said it before: it's an amazing amount of light in a very small, lightweight package, and it's easy to use one-handed.

On a lighter note, I was giving on of my revolvers the "Jim March Check-up" the other day, and the SureFire worked best to let me check cylinder charge hole/barrel alignments.

[mercop]

Trying to explain Surefire, Emerson or Strider etc is of no use. Those who know just understand. My life depends on my gear so I buy the best. If you are buying a light at least spend the $30- for a G2. I will be spending approx $400 on Surefire stuff this month. Don't waste your money. But the good stuff and cry once. Not to mention SFs customer service.

[444]

Speaking of Surefire customer service. When I bought my first Surefire flashlight, I put it in my gear and didn't use it for awhile. When I went to use it, it didn't work. I played with it, cussed it, I changed batteries, but it wouldn't work. I called Surefire and told them it was defective. The woman on the phone said something to the effect, "I seriously doubt that, the odds on that light being defective are a million to one". She wasn't obnoxious about it, she said it like she was simply stating a fact. If you had heard her say it, you would have realized immediately that she believed it completely. In her mind they made a product that was all but infallable. Her tone of voice was such that it never occured to me to fly off the handle about having a bad light or about what she said; again, her total conviction made me believe it.
And, she was right. I am not going to go into details because I would hang my head in shame over how stupid I was. There was nothing wrong with the light, it was operator error. I use the same light every shift to this day.

How many companies have you ever dealt with that honestly believed down to their core, that their product was as close to perfect as you could get ? That tells ME a lot about Surefire.

It wouldn't surprise me to find out that Hank Reardon, Dagney Taggart, or John Gault owned the Surefire company after hearing that woman on the phone.

[G&R Tactical]

Hey all, I would be all for a 6P group buy as well. Retail on them is $84.00 and I could do them for say $63.0 apiece if we got enough orders together. If you could get 15-20 orders I would make it $60.00 a pop. Sound good?


Thanks,

Grant

[ReconTech]

Trying to explain Surefire, Emerson or Strider etc is of no use. Those who know just understand. My life depends on my gear so I buy the best. If you are buying a light at least spend the $30- for a G2. I will be spending approx $400 on Surefire stuff this month. Don't waste your money. But the good stuff and cry once. Not to mention SFs customer service.

VERY WELL PUT!

I too depend on my gear to survive, hence why I carry brands such as:

Surefire - flashlights
Microtech - knives
H&K, Glock - guns
fisher - pens (rights upside down)

I even wear "tactical" boot socks! because my life is worth it ;)

[Skunkabilly]

I even wear "tactical" boot socks!

Smartwool?

[shadow 1]

G&R, count me in for two, I'll be back in two weeks, I am currently overseas working a detail, and I have 3 Surefire's with me, L1, L4 and a 6Z.
I am glad there are lots of you out there who "understand" the need for quality gear that one day may save you.
G&R send me an email when you get ready to do the deed.

[G&R Tactical]

Hey Shadow 1, will do. I guess the best way is to have everyone that is interested in either the G2 or 6P group buy to e-mail me. Once I receive enough confirmations, I will place the order.


Thanks,

Grant

gandrtactical@att.net

[SkunkApe]

Hardcoat Anodizing

Hardcoat anodize, commonly referred to as Type III anodizing, is formed by using an electrolytic solution of sulfuric acid at approximately 32° F and a current density of 23 to 37 Amps per square foot. The process will run for 20 to 120 minutes depending on the alloy used and desired coating thickness. This will produce a generally gray coating 10µm to 50µm thick with 50% buildup and 50% penetration.

http://www.ihccorp.com/IHC-Hard_Anod.htm

A search for "hardcoat" over at the Thomas Register show 159 companies in the United States that perform this process. And that's only the companies that paid to be listed with Thomas.

http://www.thomasregister.com/SearchListing.aspx?pn=01810407&search_type=product&search_string=hardcoat&sid=0307270948259000033801BW1&uuid=TRGuest

I can think of four companies in the Detroit area off the top of my head that do it.

It is not uncommon at all.

[Kentucky Rifle]

Nobody else likes Arc LSH-P the best? :)

KR

[shadow 1]

Hey Grant, maybe you should start another thread about a group buy and get a little more exposure.

[G&R Tactical]

Thank-you for the info SkunkApe. SF may have a special requirement for their flashlight anodizing. They tell me that there is only a couple places in the U.S. that will do it the way they want.

Shadow 1, that is a good idea!


Thanks,


Grant

[SkunkApe]

G&R Tactical,

You're welcome.

The Thomas Register is an excellent source.

I suspect that Surefire's "special requirement" is for marketing hype. As a manufacturing engineer familair with military gas turbine engines, I doubt Surefire's requirements are any more stringent than the military's.

Can't comment on how good their lights are, as I don't own one.

[G&R Tactical]

SkunkApe, it may be marketing "hype", but the info I got was from a friend that is a SF engineer. That info isn't on any marketing media. I was already a SF dealer so I don't think he told me about it to get me to buy something. Since you don't own a SF product, now is the perfect time to do so. There is going to be a group buy for either a G2 or 6P.


Thanks,

Grant

[SkunkApe]

Nevermind.

[10-Ring]

Perceived value & what the market will bear!! All a part of a free market system ;) Great product & equally good customer service!