When Were the First Successful Hollowpoint Rounds Introduced for Handguns?

[Timthinker]

As many of my post show, I am a history buff concerning firearms. The development of firearms and ammunition seems a legitimate interest given the part guns have played in shaping world history. With this in mind, I have long wondered when the first successful hollowpoint ammunition was developed for handguns. Yes, I know the British introduced a hollowpoint round for their .455 Webley revolvers in the late 1890s. Beyond this fact, I am curious as to what company manufactured the first successful hollowpoint rounds and in what caliber(s) they were produced. Any help here would be appreciated.


Timthinker

[rcmodel]

In modern America, I think you would have to give all the credit to Lee Jurris & his Super-Vel company back around 1967-68 probably.

Speer came out with it's half-jacket solid & HP .357 & .44 bullets for handloading before that, but not much before.

Lyman had long made HP bullet molds, but did not sell ammo.
Of course little custom handloaders were selling ammo back before WWII, but no commercial stuff from the big factories. (Except for 32-20, 38-40, and 44-40 WCF soft point rifle ammo.)
Some folks were foolish or ignorant enough to shoot some of that in handguns, at least once!

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

[The Lone Haranguer]

My guess would be Super Vel c. the early 1970s, founded by Lee Jurras.

[AK103K]

A little old and a little new. :)

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7d700b3127ccebc121bd719cc00000036100CYuWbdo5bsU

[Timthinker]

If Super-Vel was the first company to market hollowpoints successfully, then were their first products for the .38 Special/.357 Magnum rounds? I am assuming that the time frame of the late 1960s and early 1970s had them manufacture their ammo for revolvers. Is this assumption correct?


Timthinker

[GRIZ22]

Super Vel came out with 38s and 357s more or less first. The 38s were very popular as they were more a +p+ round that a LEO could carry in his 38 and still be politically correct "our officers only carry 38s not magnums". The Federal agencies picked up on Super Vel along with many other departments and individual officers that were not restricted to a particular round but had to carry a 38 revolver. When the big manufacturers saw the potential (sales) of these types of rounds they could out produce and undersell Super Vel putting it out of business. I remember paying $9.00 for box of Super Vel about 1974 when WW, RP, or Federal RNL was about $6. Reloads sold for $3 a box. May seem cheap today but I started a really good job with one of the highest paid police departments in the state making $10,553.

[Bezoar]

webley was he first and the best. They were so destructive through soft tissue and even rib cages, the Hague created special laws outlawing hollowpoints for military use.
that solve the problem?

[GunTech]

Yep. The Webley 'Manstopper' was probably the first successful commercial hollow point revolver ammo, being introduced in the late 19th century to deal with those fanatical tribesmen who keep causing trouble for colonial forces.

[Timthinker]

GRIZ, thanks for the detailed answer. When our members mentioned Super-Vel, I immediately thought these rounds were intended initially for law enforcement agenies for the reasons you described. Thanks again.

Regarding the Webley round, I was aware that it was condemned by the Hague on grounds of inflicting unnecessary suffering. What interests me about the "Manstopper" cartridge are claims that it was superior to the .45 (Long) Colt. Any ballistic data comparing these two rounds would be appreciated.


Timthinker

[NORTEXED]

The .455 Webley "Manstopper"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v368/NORTEXED/455manstopper.jpg


Years ago (early 70's), I used to load 148 gr. hollow base wadcutters upside down for a buddy of mines wife to carry in her shrouded hammer S&W .38. you could load them pretty mild and still get texttbook expansion.

[Deanimator]

Years ago (early 70's), I used to load 148 gr. hollow base wadcutters upside down for a buddy of mines wife to carry in her shrouded hammer S&W .38. you could load them pretty mild and still get texttbook expansion.
Back in the '70s when I was in college, "Guns" or "American Handgunner" ran an article on the then new aircraft hijacking problem. There was a discussion of weapons and ammunition for anti-hijacking applications.

One solution described was the Speer plastic bullets for indoor practice. Instead of using only a primer as intended, a charge of Bullseye was used. This caused horrific wound channels in the ballistic media of the day, akin to 20mm strikes. At the same time, the bullets lost velocity quickly and wouldn't penetrate vital parts of the aircraft (or seat backs). I had always meant to load some of these when I finally bought a .38/.357 revolver, but lost the loading data somewhere along the way.

[Jim Watson]

I don't know about "successful" but Westley Richards had an expansive bullet for .30 Mauser.
I bought some of the first Norma .45 ACP hollowpoints I ever saw, a few months before Super Vels hit the market. They did not feed reliably in my GI 1911 so I don't guess they were successful, either.

[rcmodel]

When the big manufacturers saw the potential (sales) of these types of rounds they could out produce and undersell SuperVel putting it out of business.They actually cut his cases off!

Lee Jurras was making his own JHP bullets in house, but buying his cases from Norma, Sako, and finally Federal.
He had no production facility to make his own cases.

First a dock strike cut off imported brass from Norma & Sako, and he had to air freight his brass into the country for a while.
So then he got a contract with Federal to make his Super-Vel head stamped cases.

When Federal and the other the big manufactures saw the way things were going at Super-Vel (1 million .38 cases a week) they cut off his brass supply and the company went under shortly afterward.

Then, everybody else started making JHP handgun ammo, none of which was nearly as good as Super-Vel, for many years afterward.

Today, it would be a big anti-trust lawsuit waiting to happen. Back then it was just everybody doing business as usual.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

[highorder]

One solution described was the Speer plastic bullets for indoor practice. Instead of using only a primer as intended, a charge of Bullseye was used. This caused horrific wound channels in the ballistic media of the day, akin to 20mm strikes. At the same time, the bullets lost velocity quickly and wouldn't penetrate vital parts of the aircraft (or seat backs). I had always meant to load some of these when I finally bought a .38/.357 revolver, but lost the loading data somewhere along the way.


interesting... I have a box of those. they pack a decent wallop with just a magnum pistol primer.

[The_Shootist]

What about the .38spl FBI load? When that appear? Granted, probably not in the same power load as the Super Vel but the concept is close. Came out - when? Early 80's?

Or is that the load the major ammo manufacturers started with when they conspired to can Jurras?

[makarovnik]

I think the Boers used them in Africa in the very early 1900's. At least I think they used them in their rifles and they were called dum-dums. I don't think they were "commercially" available though.

[AndyC]

No, the word "dum-dum" comes from the then-British arsenal of Dum-Dum in India - essentially cutting the tip off a .303 rifle bullet to get them to deform. Problem was, the base of the bullet was hollow, often leaving blown copper cylinders in the barrel...

[Timthinker]

NORTEXED, I never expected to see any photos of the "Manstopper". Thanks. That round appears as I envisioned it: an inverted wadcutter. Thanks once again for the detailed pics.


Timthinker

[rcmodel]

What about the .38spl FBI load? When that appear?The earliest referance to it, or to any +P .38 Spl. ammo I can find is dated in the late 1970's.
Or several years after Super-Vel went out of business.

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rcmodel

[The Lone Haranguer]

If you read Jim Cirillo's Guns, Bullets and Gunfights, you will see he designed a wadcutter profile, cup pointed hollowpoint - very much like that Webley "Manstopper" - that was very effective. Whether he knew about or was influenced by that design, I couldn't say.

Such a bullet is pretty much impossible to feed in an autoloading pistol. Cirillo handloaded and hand fed the cartridge into the chamber of his partner's Colt .45 so it would be the first one out of the muzzle; the magazine contained conventional hardball, IIRC.

[mec]

bought some of the first Norma .45 ACP hollowpoints I ever saw, a few months before Super Vels hit the market. They did not feed reliably in my GI 1911 so I don't guess they were successful, either.

Yes.
Jacketed Soft points were more common back in the 60s but elmer keith talked about jsp and or jhps for some of the 30 -9mm caliber pistol cartridges a couple of decades earlier. The speer loading manual of 1959 showed loads for their swc soft points and hollow points and the speer number 8 of 1970 had loads for their .357 jhp 158 grain bullet. It took luck and very high velocity to get these to expand -something that didn't change much until the '80s.

[GRIZ22]

What about the .38spl FBI load? When that appear? Granted, probably not in the same power load as the Super Vel but the concept is close. Came out - when? Early 80's?


I remember buying the "FBI Load" made by WW in the middle 70s. The catalog number of this round had "MS" in it as I recall. The round was referred to as the "manstopper". I don't know if WW intended this.