.45 Acp


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Nolo
December 22, 2007, 09:36 PM
I don't mean to start a 9mm vs. .45 war, but how effective is .45 ACP in submachine guns? I know there are probably very few of you who know this, but I don't really know any other place that will tell me how effective .45 is when shot in multiples, nor whether it is significantly more powerful than, say, 9mm or significantly less powerful than, say, .30 Carbine.

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AirplaneDoc
December 22, 2007, 11:04 PM
I don't want to get hit with even 1.

It is deffinately more effective on your wallet.

I would guess 45acp is significantly more powerful than both 9mm and 30 carb
a balistics table would tell you for sure but I would estimate a 45acp to carry +100ft/lbs at 100yards over a 30 carb.

cobrian45
December 23, 2007, 12:28 AM
This is a killer question. Ha. Normally, I would say that .45 is preferred hands down if it were a pistol question. But, this isn't a pistol question. I have shot a lot of handguns, and only two sub guns. Coincidentally, in .45 and 9mm. The .45 had quite a bit of rise and if you knew what you were doing, you could get them all on the target, though not in a tight group. The 9mm on the other hand holds great groups in a sub-gun. This is the only time I think I would say 9mm would be the way to go. You'll be able to put 3-4 round bursts in a small group quite easily. When you're talking about getting multiple rounds into a target in a second, the bullet power becomes less of a factor, I would think. It seemed much easier to keep on target for the successive bursts, which means engaging multiples would be easier. Just FYI, this was Thompson (uncomped) vs MP5. It's an apples and oranges deal, but that's my .02 from my experience.

If you're asking the question about sheer power, yes the .45 would pack more punch but in a sub I would prefer the handling of the 9mm.

HM2PAC
December 23, 2007, 06:45 AM
30 Carbine 110gr
600 fpe @ 100 yds
1567 fps @100 yds

45 ACP 230gr
326 fpe @ 50yds
800 fps @ 50 yds

AirplaneDoc
December 23, 2007, 10:13 AM
HM2PAC

What does a 45acp do at 100yds so we have a apples to apples comp

LaEscopeta
December 23, 2007, 12:34 PM
Iíve been thinking about this recently, and it seems to me the .45 ACP round really outshines all others when fired with a sound suppressor. Most (all?) other rounds have to be significantly loaded down to be sub-sonic to make a suppressor really effective, and of course this also significantly reduces ballistic performance. Since the .45 ACP is already sub-sonic, it does not need to be downloaded to make a suppressor work, and hits just as hard as from a non-suppressed weapon.

wcwhitey
December 23, 2007, 12:54 PM
If I read the question right it was more of a question of how much performance will the .45 pick up in a carbine or sub gun. I could be wrong. Depends on barrel length, a 11.5 barrel will let the 45 ACP pick up conservatively 100 FPS, a 16" will be around another 100 FPS. Lets say 1000 FPS+ from a 16" barrel in a Auto Ordinance Thompson of 16" AR Carbine. That changes the ballistic table a good bit. In a Ingram or Grease Gun with short barrels probably not that much of a jump and probably still on the subsonic threshold. Used to be very popular was the 147 Grain Sub Sonic 9mm loads for that reason, If memory serves they traveled around 900 fps. I would think that the 9mm in 115 or 124 grain would gain the most velocity and the most advantage of the longer barrel lengths. So the question is, a 230 grain FMJ at 1000 FPS or a 115 FMJ at 1400, still a tough question. I favor the .45 but an MP5 in 9mm is a sweetheart to shoot. Bill

Nolo
December 23, 2007, 01:13 PM
I was really asking how much more effective .45 is in multiples.
I'm assuming hollowpoint bullets.

Nolo
December 23, 2007, 01:14 PM
I BROKE 1,000 POSTS!!!!!

tbtrout
December 23, 2007, 01:19 PM
St Valentines Day Massacre was with a Thompson. The high rate of fire with the size and power of a .45 is more devestating than an MP5 9mm.

Roadkill
December 23, 2007, 01:34 PM
But they are heavy.

Constantine-p89
December 23, 2007, 01:45 PM
tbtrout, St Valentines Day Massacre: when did you see that lately, that's a old one(great movie though).

Roadkill
December 23, 2007, 01:50 PM
Need to see "The Road to Perdition" Tom Hanks.

Samuel_Hoggson
December 23, 2007, 02:36 PM
MP5 ROF is higher than that of the Thompson.......or the M3 grease gun. All three are eminently controllable in FA or burst. .45 hits harder, yeah, but how much 230 gr fmj ammo can you hump? Bigger mags for bigger rounds take up more space, too. I like them all.

The Thompson is kinda way overbuilt for the cartridge but, arguably, so is the Uzi. I really like grease guns in .45. In 9mm the S&W 76 is a nice, trim open bolt gun. Say what you want about the MP5, it's the smoothest subgun I've ever fired.

Just a few random thoughts. The debate about cartridge effectiveness is mitigated by the multiple hit premise of a subgun.

Sam

Kurac
December 23, 2007, 02:58 PM
G&A did a carbine showdown in one of their issues many years ago, they compared 9mm, 40S&W, 10mm and .45ACP

The .45ACP was the only one that actually had a loss of velocity with some brands of ammo out of the carbine/smg length barrel.

AndyC
December 23, 2007, 03:01 PM
Loss of velocity is more a factor of the burning-rate of the powder in the cartridges - a longer barrel requires slower powder to maintain the pressure.

kBob
December 23, 2007, 03:35 PM
Nolo,

I have not shot enough (any) people with either caliber SMG to render a reliable opinion.

I have shot a few things with both.

I like shooting the M1928 series Thompsons a lot, they are a hoot and in my experience a good deal more accurate in both semi and full suto than most give them credit for. With GI hard ball or a close weight shape and velocity reload those old Lyman Ladder sights actually work. Makes lots of holes in things not to strong or thick and kicks up lots of dust down range.

I also enjoy the old MP-40, mostly for its evil natness I supposse. It makes slightly smaller holes in things not to strong or too deep and kicks up lots of dust down range.

I admit it the MP 5 has a certain coolness factor as well, though the MP5k is a bit silly and limited in use. I really likes the SD model when set up with a heavy subsonic and a scope with a proper Bullet Drop Compensator for it. I have on a ggod day fired from 25, 35, and 50 meters and kept all shots inside a 50 mm x 50 mm square on semi and very quietly. Right off hand I can not think of a more controllable 9X19mm SMG than the MP5 with either fixed or colapsing stock. On the other hand I never took an MP5 off a range and lived with it for a bit and I have heard too many destressing stories from US troops issued them in the 1980's (Rangers and some ARBN as back ups for 90mm or Dragon gunners) about them not working when needed or just not having the power to do the job when they did. You know how those stories get, especially when talking face to face with witnesses, so I can not verify finicky peration or Girlie-girl performance on fleah and blood targets.

As much as I hate to admit it if told I had to have a 9 monkey masher SMG I might well ask for an UZI. Controls are easy to reach (if stiff on most guns), good repretation in the field, I actually like the grip safety, and I thing the hand finds hand feature for mag changes not only works but has much to appreciate. I would pefer ( as on an HK) the fixed stock but the folder/pincher/ nasty thin steel bit stock works OK and doesn make things smaller

I do not like un modified or unsupressed M-10s. M3 and M3A1 guns are not ergonomic and sfety can be an issue. I like the way a Thompsonof any mark feels and shoots and the controls are all where they need to be.....and they asn their ammo weight too much for Mrs, Hollingsworth boy to be toting around all day. Still for around the house/bunker/ AFV the THompson would be my first choice in .45ACP.

Why babble like this? Because you asked how effective .45 guns are relitice to 9sillymeters. Well the effective gun is the one you will have with you when you need it, will go bang every time you pull the trigger and can hit what needs to be hit with a telling shot.

Having spoken with folks that did shoot folks with one or the other and some that have been shot with one......for wounding power in FMJ loads Ithink I would give a slight edge to the .45 ACP.

Because you mentioned it let me say that if for some reason guys passed the half century mark, with a bad knee a blown rotatator cuff and grossly over weight were called upon to tote one of the caliber guns you mentioned into bad places, I would pick the .30 Carbine in an M-1 carbine with all the post WWII upgrades, bayonet and sheath, and nice reliable 15 round magazines over an UZI, MP5, Sten Mark Whatever, Patchett-Sterling. froggie M-49, Swedish "K", or S&W 76 AND over a .45ACP SMG.

Sounds crazy I know comming from a 1911A1 kind'a guy like me, but a carbine, Machine Karbine, or SMG is not a pistol. If it needs to go to my shoulder and be held in two hands I want more than 9 or 11.25mm performance.

TO close, the theory that multiple hits from an SMG on full auto are some how better or more destructive than the same number of rounds deliverd insemi auto fire has been fairly well debunked. The shock waves of the first hit from full auto pistol caliber rounds are gone by the time the second hits. Ony when the impacts are for all intents simutanious as in a shot gun blast or multiple shell or mine fragments do you get any multiplicaion in the effects to be seen by flesh torn away from the wound tracks of individual rounds. Most hold that if for instance a single hit of a cartridge has a 65 percent chance of stopping a target that those targets that remain get the same 35 percent cahnce of continuing on the first unshot group did and on for a good many shots (eventually them odds have to catch up but whether the say three wounds were deliverd from and uzi in .15 seconds or in 3 seconds frpm a High Point carbine, the actual effects are the same.

What makes an SMG more "effective" than a handgun of the same caliber within hand gun ranges is a function of hit probability within a given time limit, to include the probability of multiple hits. At ranges beyound "normal Handgun ranges" the SMG has a supposed advantage of greater practical accuracy than a hand gun. Not that both the conditions can be over come by training. (Sorry if that sounds too "Cooperish", but there it is)

-Bob Hollingsworth

Samuel_Hoggson
December 23, 2007, 04:43 PM
Bob,

Good read. My point above was simply that subgun effectiveness is not premised solely on a single round hit probability. I was not suggesting that there's any difference between X number hits in FA vs X number hits in SA. Sorry if I was unclear.

Sam

Sunray
December 23, 2007, 05:05 PM
The only reason there is such a thing as a .45 calibre SMG is because that was the U.S. military pistol cartridge at the time. SMG's are for very close range fighting. 100 yards isn't close range.
"...I'm assuming hollowpoint bullets...." Don't. SMG's tend to not feed them well.

HM2PAC
December 23, 2007, 06:11 PM
Airplane Doc wrote:
HM2PAC

What does a 45acp do at 100yds so we have a apples to apples comp

Doc,

The ballistics chart at Winchester does not go to 100 yds for the .45ACP.
I would suspect that it's not going to increase though. The .45ACP runs out of steam rather quickly.

Jeff F
December 23, 2007, 07:06 PM
Multiple hits with a .45 acp out of any sub gun will be very effective. I have been lucky enough to have been able to put a couple hundred rounds down range out of a mac and a little over 500 rounds out of a couple of Thompson's. Love the Thompson.

iamkris
December 23, 2007, 11:27 PM
I would suspect that it's not going to increase though. The .45ACP runs out of steam rather quickly.

Don't place all your eggs in the velocity basket. Lots of old time hunters know that for actual killing of things, nothing beats slow, heavy and wide.

plexreticle
December 23, 2007, 11:40 PM
9mm is vastly easier to control compared to the few .45 sub guns I've fired.

jpwilly
December 23, 2007, 11:56 PM
New HK UMP 45
At Last, Polymer Perfection in a .45 ACP SMG!
By Stephen Gearinger

More than a few professional submachine gunners have said that if the MP5 were available in a decent caliber, meaning .45 ACP, it would be perfect. Others observe that the MP5 is incomplete without a bolt hold-open device. Procurement types would like the purchase price of the MP5 and accessories to be cheaper by 30% or more. While those carrying .45 ACP pistols have settled for the MP5 in calibers 9mm, 10mm or .40 S&W, they would still have preferred one in the same caliber as their .45 handguns.

45 ACP is more deadly and effective than say a 9mm especially in FMJ format. My sidearm is a 45acp but for close range work a carbine my M4gery in .223 shoots the snot of out both 9mm or 45 performance.

jpwilly
December 23, 2007, 11:58 PM
New HK UMP 45
At Last, Polymer Perfection in a .45 ACP SMG!
By Stephen Gearinger

More than a few professional submachine gunners have said that if the MP5 were available in a decent caliber, meaning .45 ACP, it would be perfect. Others observe that the MP5 is incomplete without a bolt hold-open device. Procurement types would like the purchase price of the MP5 and accessories to be cheaper by 30% or more. While those carrying .45 ACP pistols have settled for the MP5 in calibers 9mm, 10mm or .40 S&W, they would still have preferred one in the same caliber as their .45 handguns.

45 ACP is more deadly and effective than say a 9mm especially in FMJ format. My sidearm is a 45acp but for close range work a carbine my M4gery in .223 shoots the snot of out both 9mm or 45 performance.

DannyinJapan
December 24, 2007, 12:07 AM
You know, all the various shortcomings of various SMGs are what led to the development of assault rifles, did they not?
More powerful and accurate than SMG rounds, but capable of full auto fire and higher ammo count..

Artful
December 24, 2007, 12:21 AM
Well, I in my experience the 9mm is easier to shoot but the 45 does more knock down. An observation, when I was a kid growning up a knew a fair number of men that would show me where they had been hit with 9mm SMG multiple times and had the scars to prove it - I've never heard from anyone hit multiple times with a 45 SMG and lived to show the scars. I do have a few friends with 45 scars out of a handgun but not a SMG.

HM2PAC
December 24, 2007, 05:32 AM
iamkris wrote:Don't place all your eggs in the velocity basket. Lots of old time hunters know that for actual killing of things, nothing beats slow, heavy and wide.

Not the velocity I'm talking about. The discussion was about the .45ACP having more ENERGY than the 30Carbine at 100 yds. It obviously doesn't.

I too prefer the 45 for it's big heavy slow bullet. I also hunt with big-bore rifles at times.

AirplaneDoc
December 24, 2007, 11:32 AM
Nolo,

I have noticed that you have several threads in various groups on the subject of 45acp vs other. Generally they all are leaning toward "the numbers on the 45 don't stack up to the numbers of 9mm, 30 carb, etc and the 45 appears anemic in comparison." So here is my answer to all of your threads.

Right up front I am a big fan of the 45. It has a couple of drawbacks no arguement there. Generally you get a single stack magazine so # of rounds is limited to 8+1 vs a (fill in your favorite numbers superior round) at 12+ .Many people feel that the 45 is a handfull to control, or hang on to. Both are valid points. I m sure there are a couple of others as well.

As many have replied in your various posts on the site. You have to look beyond the numbers on a table with most of these rounds when you are discussing stopping power of a round. Lets branch away for a moment compare the 45/70 to the 30.06. By the numbers the 30.06 is far superior to the 45/70, its faster, flatter, etc. But that does not by any means make the 45/70 anemic, just look at the countless buffalo that lost there life to the 405grs of lead from a 45/70. Those are huge animals that a 30.06 which is by the numbers superior, is way too underpowered.

The same holds true with the 45acp vs (fill in).

As somebody posted in one of your thread never underestimate the effectiveness of that massive amount of lead.

All that being said, the 45acp may or may not be for you. I have a good friend that would not have a 45 for may of the reasons stated above, He leans toward the 9mm, and there is nothing wrong with that. Its what works for him that matters most. My point is the numbers really mean very little when SHTF. I would take something that I am confident in, comfortable with, and practiced with, any day vs something that I am not. For each of us that is a personal decision and investment. Just remember a .22 can kill as well

iamkris
December 24, 2007, 11:52 AM
The discussion was about the .45ACP having more ENERGY than the 30Carbine at 100 yds.

Actually, no. I reviewed the discussion at that point...it was talking about "powerful" versus "energy".

I'm not arguing that the ME is higher...my point is that practical power (e.g., terminal ballistics) is more than just a discussion of ME which is overweighted toward MV. You and I agree.

EDIT: Oh wait, I see you were actually answering AirplaneDoc's question, not the OP. Nevermind. :)

S&Wfan
December 24, 2007, 12:11 PM
Effective means doing the job.

Any of those caliblers will do the job with correct bullet placement as long as the bullet has enough energy to perform it's job quickly.

As far as control and grouping, the lighter kicking rounds can generally be made to shoot tighter groups, and shoot 'em in the fastest time. In a gun fight, accurate + fastest wins.

As far as rounds per minute . . . again, hit factor rules supreme.

As far as ammo needs are concerned, when any subgun is puking out lots of brass in a fast amount of time, the lighter and smaller the ammo is per round, the more extra ammo you can tote.

The weight and mass of the .45ACP ammo pretty much doomed it in both modern subguns and auto pistols for use by the spray and pray crowd. The 9mm option, in its NATO-spec hotter ammo, obsoleted the .45ACP in pistol caliber subguns long ago. Heck, a .380 subgun can be obscenely fast in its own right . . . but with marginal terminal ballistics going against it.

If you ever get to go to a sub match where you can shoot subguns against others against the clock at multiple targets (especially if you have to knock down heavy metal plates and poppers, watch what the best shooters who win pick out.

It won't be a Thompson . . . or an Uzi . . . but rather a 9mm subgun with a slower auto rate of fire that allows you to engage all your steel (and other) targets faster . . . and before you run out of ammo to make all your hits. A Sweedish K would be a good choice.

In gunfights, effective and accurate bullet placement in the fastest time wins generally . . . and it surely does at matches.

Nahhh . . . as much as I'd LOVE to own a Thompson, I dang sure wouldn't have wanted to tote one around with a couple of hundred rounds of loaded ammo back "in the day."

T.

HM2PAC
December 24, 2007, 02:47 PM
AirplaneDoc,

I looked back through my old threads, and cannot find where I say the the other rounds are making the 45 look anemic in comparison.

I only own 45 in semi's.

I carry 45.

I reload 45.

Personally, as a side note, I am a staunch critic of the 9mm and 40S&W. The only reason I got involved in this discussion was that you made the comment that you "thought" the 45 still had more energy than the 30carbine at 100 yards. I only posted ballistic data that you didn't. I couldn't find data for the 45 ACP at 100 yds.

Mods, please excuse my taking this thread off-track.

Nolo
December 24, 2007, 04:37 PM
HM2PAC, AirplaneDoc was talking to me, I believe.
Let me make a few things clear.
I have no experience.
I've shot .22 LR, 12 gauge, 7.62x54R, 7.62x39 and 9mm Parabellum.
The 9mm Parabellum was the scariest one, though I think it was the gun (a S&W Model 59), not the caliber.
So four calibers. I have no experience.
I've never shot an SMG or anything that even compares to an SMG. Closest I've come was a Yugo underfolder AK.
When I post a thread, I'm not arguing a point. I know you guys know what you're talking about. I want information. If I had my druthers, I'd go shoot 5 ways to Sunday and find out all the information I'm looking for.
But I don't get to shoot often. I'm only seventeen, I'm under the guidance of my parents and they're pretty strict about guns.
So I come here, the next best source, to find out what I want to learn.
I have no doubt that .45 ACP is effective. It has been demonstrated time and time again to be an actual stopper in combat.
What I'm most interested in is your experience.
I want to tap your brain. I want to know what you know.
So yeah, I know nothing. I want to know everything.
I've coming a long way in my information hunt. I know ten times as much as I did a month ago. But I want to know more.

AirplaneDoc
December 24, 2007, 05:06 PM
Nolo,

No problem

In my experience the charts and graphs are great, in most cases they figured in ideal conditions, not necessarly real world, and they don't tell the whole story. I work with too many people that foucs on the charts and graphs, and not enough on the real/practical application. Thats all.

My recomendation, (might be a problem if you are 17) find a place to rent or someone to let you borrow a 45, and give it a whirl. Most of the time I am at the range, if you strike up a conversation, guys are usually willing to let you burn a mag or 2, in order to try out a different gun. I find this even more true if someone has a rare (not ultra expensive) gun. I do this as much as I can, I recently rented a 50S&W and bought 10 rounds, just to give it a try. it was cool, but not for me BTW, Cost is usually not prohibitive.

It's kind of like food, try as much as you can, and see what you like

:)

AD

jpwilly
December 24, 2007, 05:26 PM
Here's some relevant 100yrd 45 ACP Ballistics I found at Federal's website fired from a 5" bbl.

45 AUTO HYDRA-SHOK JHP PREMIUM PERSONAL DEFENSE

Federal Load No.: P45HS1
Factory Primer No.: 150
Caliber: 45 Auto
Bullet Weight Grains / Grams: 230 / 14.9
Bullet style: Hydra-Shok JHP

..................Muzzle 25 50 75 100
Velocity FPS 890 872 856 840 824
Energy FTLBS 404 389 374 360 347
Drop 0 -2.0 -6.9-15.0

f4t9r
December 24, 2007, 05:35 PM
I do not know the details of a breakdown but I once had an Uzi in 45 and it was way more destructive then any 9mm we shot. Do not have any info or remember shooting one in 30 cal. as far as a sub goes

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