[herohog]

I have several hundred 147 grain 9mm jacketed hollow point projectiles that are giving me FITS trying to find a crimp that will hold! I can crimp them to the point of VERY visible distortion yet the projectiles will still easily rotate in the brass. It's as if the jackets/lead is so much softer than the brass that no matter how much you crimp, the bullets remain loose in the shell. I'm about to buy some clear lacquer and thin it down and apply it just to keep the powder in them dry!

Any advise or do I just trash them?

[teombe]

sounds like either a bad resizing die adjustment and/or way too much bell in the case mouth when you expand.

Whatever it is, unless you're using cut-rate crap for bullets, then it ain't got nothing to do with the crimp.

[herohog]

I'm using barely enough flare to start the projectile. The dies are RCBS and I've used the RCBS taper crimp die to the point it buckles the brass, a Lee taper crimp die to the point of buckled brass and even used a Lee "Factory Crimp" die from a real light crimp to a huge crimp and 2 out of 3 I could spin the projectile in the brass with ease.

This is actually 9mm WinMag but the projectiles are the same and the case mouth dimensions are the same. I guess I can use the 9x18 die and see if that will size down the brass more than the 9x29 RCBS WinMag dies but I doubt that will help as the brass comes out of the RCBS dies at the same dimension as the brand-new Starline Primed brass! HellIfIKnow :confused:

[Steve Koski]

What kind of dies and brass are you using? Got to be a mis-match.

[armoredman]

Something doesn't add up. What's the actual diameter of the projectiles, via your calipers? Are the brass cases resized prior to this, or just decapped, and if not resized, were they fired in a firearm with a very generous chamber? Is this copper, aluminum or brass jacketed?

[Galil5.56]

Have you checked the actual diameter of the flaring plug before the flare? Two to three thousandths seems about right under bullet diameter. Even extreme taper crimping will do little more than swage the lead slug to a very small diameter, and the case wall will spring back giving no tension.

Bullet pull from friction caused by a good case to bullet fit is what we want. About all a taper crimp die should do is bring the flared portion of the case back to where it was, or a bit more before flaring.

[RecoilRob]

I'm guessing overcrimping swaging the bullet down as Galil mentioned.

Without crimping, is the bullet tight in the case and can you see the base swelling out the case a bit? If so, you are sizing, expanding and seating properly. All that is left is to gently bump the mouth to remove any remaining flare. If no flare is present, don't do any more to them. Load and shoot.

[ReloaderFred]

Measure the diameter of your plug, as noted by Galil.556. If it's too large, chuck it in a drill press and polish it. Since it's hardened, you won't be able to file it by regular means, but there are ways to reduce the diameter a couple of thousandths. This is done with crocus cloth and then give it a final polish with Flitz Metal Polish or J-B Bore cleaner held against it with a cloth while spinning.

Your bullet should actually be held in place by neck tension, and it sounds like the case is being expanded back out too much by the expander plug, so polishing may be the answer.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Chief-7700]

Can't tell you how many 9mm and .45ACP that I have loaded with Dillon dies and never a problem.
Chief

[CZ57]

It definitely sounds like the expander plug. Especially since you're using 147 gr. JHPs. If it measures more than .353" diameter follow Fred's instructions. If you have a drill press or access to one, or a milling machine, even better.;)

[Chief-7700]

Since the program it not letting edit my post, I woud say have reloaded around 8K of 9mm an close to 10K of .45ACP with Dillon dies. granted they cost a bit more. Something breaks call them and the new part is in the mail---No Charge
Chief

[Bullet]

Your sizing die should resize your case enough that bullet shouldn’t rotate in the brass but some brass is to thin and won’t put enough case tension on the bullet.

I use these dies to increase case tension –

http://egw-guns.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=40&osCsid=253f940ee83d2ff14495b0eba77272ee

Taper crimping is only used to remove the flare from belling the case.
I believe the idea is that you can over taper crimp and reduce case tension (especially with lead bullets) If you taper crimp to much the bullet will be reduced in diameter along with the case, but the case will spring back some and the bullet won’t causing less case tension on the bullet.

Reducing case diameter before seating a bullet will determine the amount of neck or case tension along with the brass thickness. When sizing the case neck for semi-auto rifles using bushing dies you measure the loaded round at the neck and then use a bushing .002 or .003 less in diameter than the loaded round (some use bushings even smaller) to ensure proper neck tension with NO crimp.

While the EGW die only reduces the case diameter a fixed amount, it is reducing the case diameter more than most normal sizing dies hence the better case tension.

Your problem could be that the brass is to thin. Are you using Remington brass?

[rg1]

Does your expander die offer any resistance at all when expanding. If the plug enters the brass and it feels like it's not doing anything then your sizing die isn't squeezing your brass enough. The expander plug should feel tight and that it is actually expanding. If the plug feels tight when expanding then it could be the diameter of the plug is too large. I've had problems before on some .38special brass that the case walls were too thin for my die. The expander plug went in with no resistance at all. The problem was only solved with a die that squeezed the thin brass enough to hold the bullet tightly. I wouldn't shoot any of the loads at all with the loose bullets. Could be dangerous if a bullet is pushed much deeper into the case before firing.

[mscott]

Is your sizing/decapping die set to toutch the shell plate? It needs to be as low as you can get it. The already mentioned undersize dies EGW sells are also a good thing to have. Once your sizing die is set up properly move to the expander plug. Load a couple without expanding the neck and see what happens. If you are already using crimp and factory crimp die, your problem is obviously in the first 2 dies. Once you get it figured out back your crimp die off a little. If you are buckling cases it is way too tight.

[Galil5.56]

Just to give a visual, here are two 9mm rounds using .358" sized cast bullets loaded using a Dillon expander which was .352" as I recall.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/Abucaster/IMG_7628.jpg

Notice a lot case tension, and these rounds chamber just fine in my pistols using .358" as the chosen diameter. Taper crimp is just enough to remove belling, and has no influence on bullet pull, and does not swage the bullet.

Not that you would normally see this level of bulging using .355" bullets in 9mm, but the 147's do seat deep, and the case tapers internally very fast toward the bottom, so perhaps you might see similar? I have never loaded anything over 130 grains in 9mm, so can't say from actual experience about actual bulging you might see. I do not know your level of reloading experience, but if just starting out I would suggest starting out with some 115or 124 FMJ bullets and a nice bulky propellant like Unique.

[Walkalong]

I believe the guys have it right herohog. Expander is too big. The undersize die won't help much if that is the problem, although it could make a bit of difference. Need to fix the real problem though.

Millions of 9MM rounds have been successfully reloaded with dies from every manufacturer. I have polished down a few expanders myself. If you call the die manufacturer they will be glad to help you out as well.

Sizer die could be a tad big. Will the expander go in a sized case with nor resistance? If so, it is most likely the sizer. I have had some problems with thin .45 Remington brass, but never 9MM.

If the sizer sizes the brass down enough that the expander is actually expanding it back out, there is the problem, the expander, like everyone has said.

And like someone already said. Neck tension holds the bullet. Crimping just smooths the auto case and helps out a little. No amount of crimp can make up for bad neck tension.

[herohog]

Issue resolved: It was the RCBS 9x29 Sizing die! It simply doesn't size the neck down enough! I put in a cheap old 9x18 Lee sizer/decapper and it did the trick! :neener: Yeah, it isn't a full length resize so if I want that, it is now a 2 die process but I can live with that. When I 1st started loading for this gun, I was loading new brass and it was already the right diameter. Now that I am reloading some of that once-fired brass, I noticed the issue.

BTW: The expander dies were all the exact same diameter and I am only using enough flare to start the projectile.

Thanks for all the ideas and suggestions!

[ReloaderFred]

At least you figured it out. I'm sure RCBS will make the die good. They replaced a Rockchucker press that I wore out, no questions asked.

Fred

[herohog]

The dies I inherited from a friend. They were bought 12 - 15 years ago so I doubt I can expect much from RCBS on this! :p

[ReloaderFred]

It doesn't matter to them. Just send it back to them with an empty case and tell them what you need. They'll take care of it.

Fred

[Dumpster Baby]

I quit fighting loose 9mm bullets setting back into the case years ago by using a cannelure tool to put a shallow groove in the case for the base of the bullets to rest on.

http://corbins.com/hct-1.htm

[ftierson]

Glad to hear that you 'solved' the problem.

And, since many have mentioned the tens of thousands of rounds of 9x19mmP and .45ACP that they've loaded with their Dillon dies with no problems, I thought that I'd mention that I've loaded tens of thousands of rounds with my Lee Carbide die sets with no problems either...

:)

Forrest

[armoredman]

Ditto on RCBS standing behind thier product - call and ask.

[herohog]

This is my only set of non-Lee dies. I can't complain about the Lee products I have owned.

[Luggernut]

herohog- I had the same problem with a .45ACP Hornady die. It was making me insain. I thought it might have been the powder thru expander die as well.. it wasn't. Glad you got it squared away!