[Climb14er]

I am taking a 'serious' look at the Kel-Tec P-11 as another CCW pistol but from what I've been reading, you've got to 'fluff and buff' the new pistol to get it to be totally reliable and a smooth shooter.

I don't know about you but I really don't like to buy a new pistol and have to 'finish' the work that should have been done at the factory.

Is this a fair conclusion or is the Kel-tec a 'runner' right out of the box?

[KillitnGrillit]

I just bought a new p-11 hardcrome last week and put 120 rounds thru it so far and it funtioned flawlessly. I believe in putting rounds thru my pistols in order to break it in.

[pistolwhipped]

I've owned the much talked about , troublesome P40 for three years.
This weapon has been a shooter out of the box. Never done a thing to it. Never had a problem. Ya just never know.

[DDGator]

My P-32, P-3AT, and P-40 have been flawless -- never a malfunction. Dont believe the line that the guns need work from the box. If it does need work, Kel-Tec will do it and ship it back post haste.

Good guns. Good company.

[9x19]

Mine have not needed any work to be reliable.

I have done some things to them, just for fun and to smooth the trigger pull just a bit, but that was after they had been thoroghly tested for function.

Good luck

[Tropical Z]

My P32 has been 100% out of the box using Geco fmj's.I'd bet new P11's will be just as good.

[firestar]

If you want a good gun that will work straight from the box, the Kel-Tec is NOT it! Get a .38 snubbie if you don't want to have to send you brand new gun back to the factory.

Kel-Tec pistols seem to have about a 25% chance of needing work or having to go back to the factory. The quality is low and parts will break. Kel-Tec is one of those companies that people will defend with extreme emotion even though they are clearly not up to the standards that a serious defensive pistol should have.

If someone I cared about carried a Kel-Tec for self defense, I would buy them a decent gun. I just can't sit by while someone is carrying a gun that is such a known problem. If you don't have another carry gun, pass on kel-Tec. You may get lucky and get a good one but if you are the 1 in 4 that gets a dog, you will be sorry. Save your money and get a good gun or look around a bit more. There are much better made guns out there for about the same amount of cash.

Kel-Tec does NOT have a very good track record so to be safe, get a gun that has paid it's dues and earned it's rep as a good gun. Bersa, Makarov, S&W snub nose and the CZ-83, all have great reps because they have earned it.

[9x19]

:rolleyes:

And they say the fans are emotional... Some people seem to have bad luck with lots of different pistol brands... perhaps its just bad kahrma?

:neener:

[DDGator]

Here comes the KT bashing.... I knew it was coming.

I would be curious to know where the 25% have to go back to the factory stat comes from -- there is no support for that. I guess I am luck to have stopped for now a 3 perfect guns since that fourth one would sure have to go back...

Go to ktog.org and see what the consensus is. I dont think anyone defends with "extreme emotion" and gun that is a piece of crap. People defend guns they use and depend on. However, people do mercilessly attack guns they don't like... Who do you believe?

All manufacturers have bad guns go out the door. Its a fact of life. Buy you gun from a good dealer and the dealer should take care of you. If you buy a KT and the dealer won't help you, KT will. Do you know any other companies where the head gunsmith is active on a discussion forum and will participate in discussions? Know any other companies who will give you a tour if you show up at their door? Know any other companies who will give you a hard chrome upgrade for your slide by return mail for $20 including shipping?

Don't let people scare you off from a KT with the occasional horror story. Glocks, Colts, Kimbers, S&W and H&K guns have their problems too.

Finally, the Bersa Thunder, Mak and CZ-83 are all great guns -- but they don't take the place in size/firepower of a Kel-Tec.

[yzguy]

love my P-11 and P-32...

I have done mods to them, but only because I wanted to, and because they are so easy to work on anyone can do it. Well that and the fact that doing the mods does not void the lifetime warrantee (even if you screw up and dammage a part, many times they will replace it).

[clange]

I did the F&B before i shot it but thats not really recommended. Clean it, lube it, and shoot it. If you dont have problems, great, dont do anything to it. If you have any feeding issues the F&B could fix it. Any serious stuff send it to KT. I sent mine in with FTF and FTE problems (bought used, who knows what was wrong with it) and to get a hard chrome upgrade and had it back in 5 days (although they arent usually this fast i've heard). The only thing that was original was the magazine i assume (and frame obviously). Since i've had 2 FTE in about 130 rounds, but the second was when it was quite dirty. Its much better then it was, at the very least. Considering its virtually new, i'm going to run some more rounds through it and break it in before i decide if its really fixed or not.

Damn .32 is expensive locally, i need to get some s&b online or something.

[KeysBear]

P-11 and P-40 owner. No complaints. No company could function if 1/4 of their guns had problems, so don't take that comment seriously. The P-11 is light, compact, economical, and reliable. Start out with 115 grain ammo (very few are happy with 147 grain) and use a firm grip to prevent limp wristing. Great choice for concealed carry. Don't let the fluff and buff scare you off - you dont' have to do it, and many don't. Out of the box it shoots just fine, but I'd recommend cleaning it first, then add a little gun oil or light grease on the slide rails. I've got over 2000 rounds through my P-11 so far, and 400 through my P-40. I carry mine in a Don Hume pocket holster. Best regards, Keys :cool:

[Felonious Monk]

When I got into handguns a couple of years ago (post 9/11, to be exact), I was looking for a good VALUE. I could not afford a Valtro, Ed Brown, H&K etc...
I wanted a gun I could CCW, would consistently go BANG when I pulled the trigger, decent capacity, could double as HD if needed, and had really good warranty support if something went wrong.

I looked seriously at the Taurus PT111 and PT145, but that was about the time the frame cracking was happening with the .45. I also heard that some folks (not all) had had nightmare experiences with Taurus Cust. Svc.

I looked at some other candidates, and came across the Kel-Tec Owner's Group.
I found that the P11 was SMALLER, LIGHTER and had the same capacity as the PT111 (and potential for MORE with S&W hi-cap mags).
People on the board occasionally had problems, but nothing epidemic; when they did encounter trouble, almost every one was given STELLAR treatment by Kel-Tec.

I asked questions for a while, and when a long-time member was selling a parkerized P11 with night sights, I bought it.
It's been perfect, and so I've bought 2 P32's since. Also perfect.

Oh GOSH, Firestar! I'd better stop NOW! That's my 3 good ones!!! :scrutiny: :rolleyes:

[newman32]

I just did the usual cleaining before going to the range w/ my P11 for the first time. I will say that is fairly gunked up out of the box. BUT, after 500 rounds of various ammo brands - no problems.

[Blackhawk]

My P-11 was perfect out of the box, but I did the F&B on it for grins. Later, I came up with trigger modifications to shorten and lighten the pull. For its size, weight, capacity, and tune, it's about as perfect a CCW as I can imagine. I don't consider it a pocket pistol however. Its two little brothers, P-32 and P-3AT fit that bill.

I don't have a P-3AT yet, but my P-32 was also perfect out of the box except for needing cleaning. I don't consider that a gig though. I clean every new or new-to-me gun I get, and that's never been considered a wasted effort.

I have friends who also have P-11s that were perfect out of the box and who never bothered cleaning them until after a few shooting sessions, and only then because they started carrying them.

I don't know what problem KT bashers have that causes them to make things up about them, but the psychiatrists probably have a name for it -- "P-11ess Envy", maybe. :D

[KeysBear]

A couple of more things. A Makarov was mentioned as an alternative, as is often the case when talking about economically priced pistols. A Makarov is a fine pistol, and I own one, but I'm assuming that we're talking about concealed carry pistols of similar size. I know a lot of people carry a Makarov, but it is not pocket sized. I've been carrying my P-11 in my pocket holster for over ten months now, and it goes just about everywhere with me, even in light walking shorts which are necessary for this hot weather climate I live in. I've taken my P-11 completely apart, and there is nothing cheap about it - it's just built to be light, not cheap. I sit at my desk with it in my pocket all day long and I never even realize that it's there. That's what I wanted for concealed carry in a 9mm. If it were any heavier I might leave it at home sometimes, and that wouldn't protect me much, now would it? Best regards, Keys :cool:

[concerned citizen]

I have owned two P-11's a P32 and currently a P3AT.

Folks like to tinker with them, I have never had to. Mine have all worked out of the box. All I have done is detail strip,clean and lube before first range trip. ( I do this with every new to me gun though..)

[Dave R]

My understanding is...the whole purpose of the Fluff & Buff is to smooth those parts that rub against each other as the pistol cycles. Which is exactly what happens when you shoot a few hundred rounds through it.

The one exception to that may be polishing the feed ramp. Not sure that smooths with lots of feeding...

Anyway, my point is that the F&B is an alternative to doing a normal break in. Just reduces the chance of misfeeds in those first rounds. At the cost of creating some "artificial wear".

[sm]

NO

[Lastryghts]

It's funny firestarter always comes around and starts bashing KT with all of these outragious claims, but has no support to back them up. What can you show us that backs up your statement that one in four has to be returned? Do you sit outside their factory? Are you their Fed Ex man? If one in four is such a dog it needs work well where are these 32,500 guns? Thats a lot of guns. Maybe there under the rug? I understand that people have problems with firearms(Some more than others) but why do you have such a chip on your shoulder against KT? Most people would post their opinion and be done, but to bash the company with such dedication. Why?

[coldshot03/04]

My P32 fired straight out of the box. No problems I have about 75- 100 rds through mine so far. No F&B for me.

But I recently made my first 2 visits to an indoor gun range. The owner there loans his P32 out for new buyers that are interested in the P32. He said that his P32 has around 1000rds through it. NO Problems!!!!!
I feel so much better after talking to him.:D

firestar aka kahrma:neener: Likes Llamas (Bersa)!!!!!!!!!LMAO!!!!!!!

[alamo]

Dave R has it right. At the price these pistols sell for, low $200s in a lot of places, they don't do the fit & finish you'd expect when buying a more expensive pistol. Having said that, most these days work fine out of the box. I just like to tinker with them, helped me learn about how pistols work.
Going to get a P-3AT soon, will do a F&B on it first vs. shooting a few hundred rounds to break it in.

[jon1481]

I've had a p-11 that was absolutley reliable out of the box. No f&b, didn't send it to Jack, no mods. except painting the sights. I sold it to help finance a colt lwt commander. Oh, I didn't like the shape of the trigger--that's all I could fault. Jon

[firestar]

This poor guy was asking a serious question about the quality of Kel-Tecs and I am afraid I was the only one that gave him an honest answer.

Flyer, why don't you tell him how many trigger axis you have broke on your P-32s? I think that is a quality control problem that could get you killed!

Do enough research and you will find that there are MANY MANY unsatisfied Kel-Tec customers out there. KT customer service is good and every one that ownes a Kel-Tec seems to get a chance to find out just how good first hand.:D

I would not feel right if someone I cared for was using a Kel-Tec to defend themselves. I would get them a better gun asap!

[huaco]

I have a few hundred rounds through mine without any problems. I thought about doing the F&B but when I looked at the parts closely there was nothing that looked like it needed improvement. A bit of Remington DriLube under the trigger transfer bar made the trigger a lot smoother and learning to squeeze the trigger continuously instead of staging it made a lot of difference in accuracy. It's my blah gun that is usually near me because it's so simple and I'm sure it will work.

[9x19]

...and I am afraid I was the only one that gave him an honest answer.

Indeed?

[KeysBear]

Firestar,
You have a right to your opinion, and a right to share it here. You're always welcome to come back to KTOG if you can ever get your password to work again. Must have been bad kahrma or something. Anyway, let's move on and get back to positive gun talk. Best regards, Keys :cool:

[firestar]

I'm not going to let you guys stop me from voiceing my opinion. You have your opinion and others have their's. If we can't speak our mind on what guns we feel are total crap, then we might as well be writing for a gun rag.

IMHO, Kel-Tecs are total crap! They are cheaply made and many of them don't work. There is no shortage of complaints about them on this and other forums so I don't think I am the only one to have problems.

Every time someone asks my opinion about Kel-Tecs, I am going to give them the truth. Why would I want someone to get screwed on a gun purchase? The more bad guns that are sold, the more people will be turned off shooting. Every Kel-Tec that is sold means a good gun sits on the shelf and that is wrong. It is fine if you want to fiddle with your guns but many new shooters don't want to compleatly take their gun apart and "Fluff & Buff" it.:rolleyes: These jam-o-matics and break-o-matics are going to get someone killed! That is no joke and I don't think it is funny. What if wife or daughter had to use a Kel-Tec to defend themself? I bet you would feel a little differently or at least I hope you would.

[coldshot03/04]

My KT Works 100% straight out of the box. :D :neener: :D

Bersa:barf:

[boing]

IMHO, Kel-Tecs are total crap!

It's emotional statements such as this that hurt your credibility. If that's been your experience, then you're entitled to that opinion, of course. But you'll just have to make room for the (many) people who have had great experiences with Kel-Tec.

I think it's fair to say that Kel-Tec has had more than it's fair share of warranty returns, as compared to other manufacturers. It's also unfair to ignore the fact that Kel-Tec has improved it's QC greatly of late, and reduced the incidence of warranty returns. I base this on casual observation of boards like this, and gun shop chatter.

My late model P11 ran 100%, out of the box, and still does.

PS- No-one here has cornered the market on "truth".

[ddflorida]

Uh, Excuse me.....

I've never posted here before, but I guess an unsolicited opinion is now warranted.

My Kel-Tec P-11 has over 3,400 rounds through it and it still goes BANG every time I want it to, and it even hits what I'm aiming at!!! Greatest little gun I could have ever bought! Best conceal weapon for the money, for sure. Service by the factory is unmatched by any other manufacturer (and not just gun manufacturers).

Maybe Firestar just needs to go shooting his gun (practice makes perfect, you know) instead of what he seems most intent to shoot off. :D

[ColonelJim]

I guess I'll jump in here too. I've had my P-11 (s/n 125,xxx) since Nov '02. Had an FTE at round 50, FTE at round 600, FTF round 100(?) all with Winchester White box ammo out of 1200 rounds. 100 rounds of Gold Dot JHP, no problems with that ammo at all. I'm pretty happy with those results. Have a S&W 3960 which I really like too, but I've had more problems with it than the P-11.

[SSGMike]

The truth is, I have a late-model P11 (SN 132XXX) that I have run 300 rounds through now, with only one Fail-To-Feed (round 20 or so) that I attributed to limpwristing. All I've done is fieldstrip, clean and lube it. I'm sold.

[mod12]

i love my p11. no problems whatsoever. i do wish firestar would adopt me tho, i'd like a new kimber

[DDGator]

What if wife or daughter had to use a Kel-Tec to defend themself? I bet you would feel a little differently or at least I hope you would.


Have you been paying attention? Wife or daughter? Many people on this thread absolutely do rely on a KT for defense every day -- myself included.

What motivation do you think we have to carry such a "junk" gun? What kind of conspiracy could this be? Are we all paid KT employees? Or -- are we all just too stupid to realize the guns are junk and don't work?

[ddflorida]

Well said, DD. I trust my KT P-11 explicitly. My life and the lives of my family (or maybe even yours) may depend on it someday.

[Lastryghts]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What if wife or daughter had to use a Kel-Tec to defend themself? I bet you would feel a little differently or at least I hope you would.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


My girlfriend would grab my KT befor the glock, beretta, ect if anyone was ever stupid enough to break in. It's what she feels most comfortable with.

[Walt Sherrill]

This poor guy was asking a serious question about the quality of Kel-Tecs and I am afraid I was the only one that gave him an honest answer.

And the rest of the responses aren't honest? Come on, guy... Just because people disagree with you, that's no reason to call them dishonest.

The P-11 had some teething problems in the first years of production, but that seems to be long behind them.

I carried a P-11 for several years, and moved on to another small gun -- a Star Firestar Plus -- which I find easier to shoot well. I sometimes regret trading the P-11 away. It was always reliable and always accurate (when I did my part); I just found it hard to do my part, sometimes. The problem with the Firestar Plus -- getting parts if it ever breaks. (Little things like firing pins can be a problem.)

I never had a problem with the P-11 in thousands of rounds shot.

Would I get another? Yeah.

Would I buy a Sub-2000. I traded for one, and found that it didn't stoke my fire. Very reliable and very accurate, and absolutely trouble free.

Will I get one of the new .380s. Yeah, probably will.

[Redleg6]

Much as I enjoy Flyer's prose (and firearms expertise), the original question asked was (to paraphrase): "does a new owner have to 'fluff and buff' a new Kel-Tec P-11 to get it to be totally reliable and a smooth shooter or is the Kel-Tec a 'runner' right out of the box?"

The overwhelming consensus of replies from P-11 owners (and a handful of P-32 shooters as well) here has been "the Kel-Tec of today (and last year and the probably year before that) is not only a 'runner', but a pretty darn fair decathlete. Like Felonious Monk, I looked long and hard for the right (affordable) concealed carrier pistol after many years of M1911 use...I REALLY wanted a .45, and I really thought that the Taurus P145 would be the answer...I just couldn't get past the cracking frames--not the production problem itself, but the company's response (or lack thereof). When I gave up on finding a .45 for that role and started looking at 9mm's, I found the KT P-11 standing by itself in the marketplace...a combination of
small, light, inexpensive (not cheap), high mag capacity that put it (on paper) in a unique niche among autos designed from the ground up as a CCW piece.

I was also impressed by word-of-mouth feedback on the way the company stands behind its products and treats its customers. Everything I read or heard also said that Kel-Tec was well past any initial production hiccups (which unlike Taurus they never denied and quickly went to prodigious ends to fix) and that they were worth taking a chance on...heck, the P-11 retail price was ONE THIRD what my next best candidate was selling for. So I took the plunge, but the day I did I went off to my local friendly hardware store and bought all the supplies for a full scale Fluff and Buff.

Bottom Line: I now own twin P-11's with consecutive SN's in the 120,XXX range. The F & B supplies are still on my closet shelf. Straight from the box, just cleaned and lubed them, as I would do with any new firearm. The results: absolute, unqualified, no taurine by-product, flawless (e.g. Perfect) performance--100% functioning on a diet of 100% hollow points, 147 grain and 115's...Win White box and Remington/UMC cheap stuff....these things weren't s'posed to eat JHP's without at least a polish job, but I have yet to fire an FMJ round in the several thousand I've put through it and I have never had a problem. Go figger. My other autos are a vintage Government M1911 and an original High Standard Military B...the Kel-Tecs are AT LEAST as reliable...probably more so, if I had ever had enough problems with any of them to stat keeping statistics.

Can a new owner buy a P-11 with confidence?...you bet. Be confident you are getting an innovative design concept, now well executed in the production process, backed by a company with perhaps the finest customer service orientation in the business, that is an exceptional dollar value, and is marvelously well-suited to its intended purpose of concealable, reliable, high-volume close-in firepower.

[Felonious Monk]

Firestarter wrote: If someone I cared about carried a Kel-Tec for self defense, I would buy them a decent gun. I just can't sit by while someone is carrying a gun that is such a known problem. I feel a close affinity for you, Firestar. In fact, I genuinely care about your well-being, and hope the feelings are mutual. Right now, the P-11 is all I can afford to carry.

Will you buy me a better gun? I'd be happy with even a Makarov or a Bersa Thunder if I knew it came from you.

Hugs, big fella ;)
Tickle me Fel-Mo

chortle....giggle.....Chuckle.....SNORT......BWAAAAAAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!! :D :evil: :cool:

[coldshot03/04]

WOW, I have got to go study the history of firearms after all of this.:)
;)

Ps Put 25 more rds through my P32 this morning It still goes bang.:p

[9x19]

...I was the only one that gave him an honest answer.
The rest of the posters are liars?

I'm not going to let you guys stop me from voiceing my opinion.
Who has tried?

There is no shortage of complaints about them...
Except in this thread?

I wonder... did firestar once have a job as information minister for a recently deposed dictator in the middle east?

:neener:

[Felonious Monk]

LOL!
Yeah--that's it! Baghdad Bob!!!

"The minarets are NOT BURNING! It is a computer-generated HOAX by the great Satan, America!"

"Pay no attention to the little man behind the curtain--I am the Mighty OZ!"

"Kel-Tec sucks, dude".


ROTFLMAO!

[KeysBear]

Bagdad Bob?

That is the funniest connection I can possibly think of. Way to go 9X19! You have made my day, and added some humor to this, well, whatever this thread is all about. Oh yeah, back on topic - you don't have to F&B a Kel-Tec P-11 out of the box to have a very sweet carry pistol. Yep, I shot mine five minutes after I picked it up at the dealer. My only complaint that day was the length of the trigger pull, but I got used to it.

Enjoy the weekend guys. You too Firestar. It's all just good natured gun ribbing talk. (I know what you're thinking, yeah I'm the Easter Bunny too). I'm outta here. Regards, Keys :cool:

[firestar]

Lets try and keep this civil. I have never attacked any of you guys, I attacked a gun that I honestly feel is a bad choice for staking your life on. I don't hate KT or any of you guys but a newbie asking questions should get the bad with the good. I asked questions before I bought my P-32 but because I wanted one so bad, I looked past the complaints and only saw the good.

I had enough problems with my P-32 that I would never be able to recomend them to anyone. I think the trigger axis is a design flaw and the reports of it breaking are proof of this. Without a trigger, you don't even have one shot so reliablilty is not even a question at that point. Mine broke AND had reliability problems. Kel-Tec will fix your gun as many times as you are willing to send it back to them. I wish I had the good luck that many of you claim to have had but from my experience with my P-32 and my friends P-40 and a few other Kel-Tecs that I have known people to have, I wouldn't call them a reliable gun. I only know one person that has never had a probelm with there P-32 and he doesn't shoot it enough to really put it through it's paces. He is a cop and I doubt he has fired more than 100 rounds in two years through his P-32.

I am not bashing KT because I have any motive. I am just telling it like it is. My opinion and experience should count as much as the next guy's. I didn't buy a P-32 because I wanted an excuse to complain about something. I wanted to like it but after 400-500 rounds with various problems, I gave up. If a carry gun is not reliable, there is no point in having it. A gun that breaks in your pocket like mine apparently did is a scary thought and if you carry a P-32, you should think about it and not just sweep it under the rug. The P-32 has major reliablity and design problems based on feedback online and from my personal experience. How can I recomend a gun like that?

BTW, I don't even own a Kimber. I don't know how that rumor got started.

[Safety First]

Firestar, I have just a few thoughts on the previous messages I have read regarding Kel-tec and your opinion of them. First of all,IMHO you should be free to voice your displeasure about any gun, just as I should or any other member here. So I have no reason to take a swipe at you or give you a hard time about your opinion. However, if you are just guessing about the one in four kel-tec guns being a poc, just say so or tell us where you got those stats. The other thought that ran thru my mind, is why not take one more chance on what soooo many people seem to think is a great little pocket gun? I know you had a bad experience but maybe the next time you will get one of those good out of the box guns. You may be missing a good opportunity to own a really good pocket gun, after all there do seem to be a lot of kel-tec owners who feel the gun is utterly reliable. Now that said, I will probably buy one of the P-3at's in next few months ( if not the next few weeks) myself. I have to admit I am a little apprehensive but I feel there are so many happy owners that I will join the list..time will tell..Again Firestar,just trying to find the positive middle ground. Best regards...

[9x19]

...I was the only one that gave him an honest answer.

None of my four Kel-Tecs have never given me a moment's trouble... yet you classified my post as a lie.

I have never attacked any of you guys...

...I was the only one that gave him an honest answer.

Challenging the veracity of a host of people is not attacking?

My opinion and experience should count as much as the next guy's.

"Count as much", yes, but you seem to want ONLY your opinion to be taken as as truth... see:

...I was the only one that gave him an honest answer.

[Blackhawk]

firestar wrote:Every time someone asks my opinion about Kel-Tecs, I am going to give them the truth. Don't you see how foolish that statement is? Why not just give them your OPINION since that's what they asked for?

Too often, people think that their opinion IS the truth, but it very seldom is.

You apparently had ONE P-32 that suffered a broken trigger axis. It appears that your experience is unusual. Was it the first machine you ever had that suffered a broken part?

You can speak the truth about YOUR P-32, a Kel-Tec, but that's where it ends. The sooner you realize that your opinion is only as credible as your PERSONAL experience backing it up, the sooner you will yourself become credible and people who know you will seek you out to hear your opinion about all kinds of things. However, you'll also know enough to not make up things to "support" cock-eyed biases you have or that ohers may impart to you or isolated circumstances may cause you to guess about.

As for this thread, the original poster asked about NIB P-11s? If you don't have any personal experience with a NIB P-11, your opinion is irrelevant, isn't it? :D

[matsaleh]

I want a P-11. Anyone who thinks theirs is junk can send it to me for thorough testing. I'll provide you with a report in four or five years, and if it's no good, I will dispose of it for you safely.

[firestar]

Whatever. Clearly there are no problems with Kel-Tec guns and I am just making them all up. :rolleyes:

Flyer has broken 3-4 trigger axis on his P-32 and others have broken their trigger axis as well. The FTE jams are so common that Kel-Tec knows just what you are talking about before you finish your sentance. There are real problems with the P-32 but I am not going to take it on myself.

I didn't just have one or two problems with my P-32, I had many problems and the gun seemed like it was just self destructing the more I tried to shoot it. One of my shooting buddies was considering buying a P-11 but after seeing all the problems I had with my P-32, he changed his mind. I never told him anything abad, he saw it for his own eyes when I would try to shoot my gun and it would jam or malfunction in some way. Broken trigger axis, FTE jams that made the gun return to the factory where they replaced the top half of the gun rather than fix it, slide stop not holding the slide back on the last round once in a while, trigger not engaging the sear properly for some reason, etc, etc.

Maybe if you get a bad one you REALLY get a bad one. For some reason I am the only one on this thread that is giving the bad news about Kel-Tec but if you do a search here or at KTOG, you will find a treasure trove of horror stories about Kel-Tec guns.

The 25% thing seems to be the average when someone does a online poll about Kel-Tec reliability. If you don't believe me, start up a poll and see how many people come out of the woodwork and tell you about their POS Kel-Tec.

I don't think Kel-Tec is the worst gun ever made but it is not even close to being up there with the good ones. I am not going to argue with you fanatical Kel-Tec fans anymore because by defination, Kel-Tec fans really aren't worth arguing with. It makes about as much sense as claiming that the GEO Metro is the best car ever made. Kel-Tec=Geo Metro :neener: