[Daniel T]

link (http://www.freep.com/news/locway/knife7_20030107.htm)

an excerpt:

A Detroit police officer with a knife cut off the finger of a 45-year-old woman he was trying to handcuff in a parking lot on 8 Mile.

The police, who were in plainclothes, said she was resisting arrest. The woman, Joni Gullas of Detroit, said Monday that she thought she was being carjacked.


Good lord.

[Daniel T]

Apparently, this same officer also killed a 79 year old disabled woman (http://www.freep.com/news/locway/cop8_20030108.htm) too.

[spacemanspiff]

He's a man of faith," Konczal said. "He's going to do what he needs to do to get the job done, and he feels for anybody who gets hurt. If there's anyone who feels bad about this woman being hurt, I'm sure it's A.J. He was getting the job done."
hurmph.

[Master Blaster]

January 8, 2003







BY JIM SCHAEFER AND BEN SCHMITT
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITERS




A Detroit police officer facing a possible charge for slicing off the finger of a motorist, shot and killed a 79-year-old disabled woman during a ruckus in her home in 1998, police officials said.

The department and prosecutors cleared Officer Anthony Johnson in the killing, and returned him to street patrol duties. Officials ruled the killing was justified because the woman -- who was deaf, had arthritis and suffered dementia -- had wielded a kitchen knife at Johnson and other officers who were trying to control a fight inside a Detroit home.

But Cora Bell Jones' family sued the officers and the city, collecting a $350,000 settlement in 2001.

On Tuesday, Detroit police asked the Wayne County prosecutor to seek a criminal charge against Johnson, saying he sliced off the finger of a woman during a tussle with her early Sunday.

Joni Gullas, 45, of Detroit lost her left ring finger at the first knuckle. She also suffered a deep cut to her left middle finger.

Johnson, a 9-year veteran of the 9th (Gratiot) Precinct, has been placed on desk duty and is under departmental investigation, Deputy Police Chief Gary Brown said.

A spokeswoman for the Wayne County prosecutor said no decision had been made on charging Johnson in the Sunday incident. Brown would not specify which charges might be applicable.

Johnson could not be reached for comment.

In the 1998 shooting, officers responded to a call of someone shooting at Jones' east-side home. They arrived and found her great-grandson inside the house with a pistol he said he had picked up in case the shooters came back, according to court records.

During the fracas, Jones -- limited also by poor vision and senility -- came at the officers with a knife, according to police.

David Robinson, a Southfield attorney who represented Jones' estate in the lawsuit, said Jones thought the officers were trying to hurt her great-grandson.

Robinson said Johnson and other officers could easily have disarmed Jones.

"Should he have been off the street? Good grief, this new lady will tell you he should have been off the street," Robinson said.

Around 2:30 a.m. Sunday, Johnson and two other officers were riding in an unmarked car on a special burglary patrol when they noticed Gullas' van in a parking lot about a block from the Huddle Lounge near 8 Mile and Gratiot, in northeast Detroit.

In an interview Monday, Gullas said she had just left the bar and was waiting in the van for others to come out so they could go together to breakfast when a car pulled up and someone shined a spotlight in her face.

A man approached, said he was a police officer and demanded her identification. Gullas said she could make out only a silhouette and asked the man for police identification because she thought he might be trying to steal her car.

After some heated give-and-take between that officer and Gullas over IDs, Johnson walked up to the two and demanded Gullas' license.

Johnson wrote in a police report that Gullas smelled of alcohol but refused to produce her license, saying she wasn't doing anything wrong.

She shifted the car into reverse and began to back up, he wrote. Gullas denies that she moved the car.

Johnson wrote that he reached inside to open the door and Gullas pinned his hand with her knee and began moving the car backward again. Johnson wrote that he hit her in the face, opened the door and pulled Gullas onto the pavement. He said she was pulling and pushing away from him violently.

He cuffed her right hand but couldn't get to her left hand, which she had tucked under her body. He pulled on her coat sleeve and she pulled her hand inside, he wrote. Gullas denied doing that and said the sleeves on the coat normally hang over her hands.

Concerned that she might be reaching for a weapon, Johnson pulled out a pocket knife and cut the sleeve off "to speed up" thecuffing process, he wrote.

The knife also cut Gullas' hand.

Brown said there is no policy that would cause an officer to use a knife to make an arrest and said he was concerned that plainclothes officers made what was essentially a traffic stop.

Officer David Malhalab of the 6th (Plymouth) Precinct said many officers carry knives as tools. His has a screwdriver tip for removing license plates. Other purposes include cutting off seatbelts, cutting string and opening packages.

"In my 25 years here I have never heard of an officer using a knife as a weapon," Malhalab said Tuesday. "This is an abberation and a tragic circumstance."

Since December 2000, the U.S. Justice Department has been investigating Detroit Police policies and procedures, including the use of force by officers. No final report has been issued, and city officials have pledged cooperation.

Johnson was a close friend of Detroit Officer Scott Stewart, who was shot and killed Aug. 11 after trying to break up an outdoor party that included illegal gambling on the city's east side. Johnson was one of five speakers at Stewart's funeral.

Officer Scott Konczal, who works with Johnson, cautioned against making quick judgments about what happened with Gullas.

"He's a man of faith," Konczal said. "He's going to do what he needs to do to get the job done, and he feels for anybody who gets hurt. If there's anyone who feels bad about this woman being hurt, I'm sure it's A.J. He was getting the job done."

[ojibweindian]

Is there any wonder why there is such doubt concerning police officers today? Yeah, it may be that 1% which is giving the rest of them a particularly bad reputation, but the actions of that 1% are highly visible.

Fellow officers need to purge the ranks and get rid of these abberations, and the public needs to insist on hiring decent, responsible, level-headed individuals as well as holding abberent officers personally responsible, legally and financially, for their actions.

[jimpeel]

This guy couldn't overcome a 79 year old disabled woman without going to the gun???????

Hell, I'm too light to fight and too thin to win but I sure as Hell know that I could take out a 79 year old disabled woman without having to shoot her.

[Ian]

I can't figure out which is worse: that the cop cut her finger off, or that during the "arrest", she thought she was being carjacked.:fire:

[ArmsAkimber]

Ian said:

I can't figure out which is worse: that the cop cut her finger off, or that during the "arrest", she thought she was being carjacked

Yeah. He didn't have his jackboots on, so judging by his conduct, she saw him as just a thug.

:cuss:

I grew up off of 8 Mile, and lived in the vicinity of Detroit for many years. I worked at a store where the manager was a moonlighting Detroit cop. He liked to tell stories. His attitude, and the attitudes of his fellow cops, as he expressed it, were that "citizens" were their play things; to screw with as they pleased.

I hope the goon goes to jail.

:fire:

[4v50 Gary]

Ohmigawd! No jury in the world will be sympathetic to the officer. He's toast in a civil court.

[GinSlinger]

Fellow officers need to purge the ranks and get rid of these abberations...

I'm afraid that that won't happen. It seems to me that the "thin blue line" has closed ranks sooo tight that fellow officers would defend their brothers to the end, no matter what the violation. The 99% "in the good" do more to soil their reputations by defending some of these jack-o's than the 1% in the wrong. I was struck by an officer in a patrol car one day. The officer sped off and I had to call the police to report. The second officer showed up, and since I had no visible injuries he kinda half-orifice wrote up a report. Later, I requested a copy of the report which didn't exsist. The city attorney and a private attorney had little interest in my case since there was no report and no injuries. (BTW, I was crossing with a green light when the officer turned right and lightly tapped me with his bumper, no real harm, but the officer leaving certainly ticked me off!)

GinSlinger

[Tamara]

I... g.... wha...

:cuss: :fire: :cuss: :banghead: :fire: :cuss:

I'm dyin' to find out how this one gets spun so that we "understand the officer's actions"... :mad:

[Tamara]

Wait, no, let me guess: He was scared of 79 year-old women and/or fingers and in both cases thought they were on an attack run...

[2nd Amendment]

I hope you're wrong, Gin. They have to clean things up themselves. We can't do it for them and if they don't the only result I can see is complete chaos.

[2nd Amendment]

He thought it was the hand from the Adams Family, Tamara, and he meant to kill it but only got a finger. The elderly chick he mistook for Cousin It and he's got no use them danged long hairs, dontcha know.

[Morgan]

I think the shooting was justified - none of us were there. How's this - I'll put on welder's goggles and tie one hand behind my back, then you try to take away the knife when I charge you. Bring a few friends, if you like. Hope your health and life insurance are current.

As for the cut off finger, I don't know what to think. It sounds like the woman was resisting arrest, but I'd pull the coat off before whipping out my folder...

[Daniel T]

Morgan said:
I think the shooting was justified - none of us were there. How's this - I'll put on welder's goggles and tie one hand behind my back, then you try to take away the knife when I charge you. Bring a few friends, if you like. Hope your health and life insurance are current.

Great, another "none of us were there" comment. Tell ya what, the vast majority of us weren't in Communist Russia during Stalin's purges, but we can judge that situation just fine.

Go ahead, put on your goggles and hold one hand behind your back. Can you also age a few dozen years and get arthritis too, just to make the situation a little more accurate?

As far as the resisting arrest goes, from the article:

Gullas said she had just left the bar and was waiting for others to come out so they could go together to breakfast when a car pulled up and someone shined a spotlight in her face.

A man approached, said he was the police and demanded her identification. Gullas said she could make out only a silhouette and asked the man for police identification.

"I just thought I was getting hijacked right then and there," she said. After some heated give-and-take between the two over IDs, Johnson approached the window and demanded Gullas' license.

He wrote in his report that Gullas smelled of alcohol but refused to produce her license, saying she wasn't doing anything wrong.

She shifted the car into reverse and began to back up, he wrote. Gullas denies that she moved the car.

Johnson wrote that he reached inside to open the door, and Gullas pinned his hand with her knee and began moving the car backward again. Johnson wrote that he hit her in the face, opened the door and pulled her outside onto the pavement. He said she was pulling and pushing away from him violently.

So, it doesn't look like he ever supplied his police ID. What would you do in this situation? He was in an unmarked car and not wearing a uniform. "Oh, you're a police officer? Well, no one could ever lie about that, sure I'll comply with your every demand." Yeah, sure. Somehow I don't think so.

[2nd Amendment]

That was sarcasm, right Morgan? Morgan...?

[Morgan]

My, my... What aggression - lemme guess, you don't like cops, do ya?

As for your Communist Russia comment, let's stick with non-straw man arguments, shall we? I gave you a comparable situation, and you scoff. Hell, even if there's only a 50% chance of getting cut, would you go for it?

As an aside, I have wrestled a knife from an insane party, who wanted suicide by cop and out weighed me by about 100 lbs. I'd have been perfectly justified in using much greater force - and I was shaking like a leaf when it was all over. Would I do it again? I don't know - it depends on the situation, and you'd have to be there.

This cut finger bit, as I stated, is fishy. I hope the truth comes out, but one can't necessarily trust the media, and the department will try to help it's officer, so we may never know. Anyone know what type of history the officer or woman have?

2nd Amendment: Nope, I speak truthfully and honestly. I'm no statist, either. I just don't want to get cut/killed.

[DeltaElite]

How can the officers in an agency purge an officer like this, when the District Attorney won't indict?
The brass won't fire em, the courts won't indict them, civil service commissions protet them, so exactly what are the cops who work with them to do to purge them from the force?

I am as flustered as anyone, I see filth with badges, but know that nothing can be done, because of the threat of suing for wrongful dismissal until the filth goes over the edge.
Civil service protection ties the hands of the brass, assuming they acted at all and protects the filth from termination.


Rant over.:banghead:

[spacemanspiff]

the first and foremost problem, IMHO, is that the officer allegedly didnt provide satisfactory identification to the woman. plus it sounds as if he had an antagonistic attitude to begin with.

there, my monday moring QBing is complete.

[Daniel T]

I gave you a comparable situation, and you scoff. Hell, even if there's only a 50% chance of getting cut, would you go for it?

It wasn't a comparable situation. Unless you think a healthly, trained adult male with goggles and a hand behind his back is the same thing as a senile 79 year old deaf and blind woman with arthritis. And yes, I this case I would have risked a cut to avoid killing this woman. A person suffering from dementia or senility isn't always aware of what they're doing. I was highly pissed when local police shot and killed a retarded man wielding a pointy stick too.

This cut finger bit, as I stated, is fishy. I hope the truth comes out, but one can't necessarily trust the media, and the department will try to help it's officer, so we may never know. Anyone know what type of history the officer or woman have?

It wasn't a "cut finger". It was a cut off finger. What difference does it make if there was a history there or not? If there was, does that justify his cutting off one of her fingers?

[Daniel T]

My, my... What aggression - lemme guess, you don't like cops, do ya?

I don't like cops that kill and maim people for no reason.

[Morgan]

Demise:

First, the goggles are to mostly blind me - of course, you could just give me a spritz of pepper spray, if you prefer... I know it isn't a completely comparable situation, but if I were to tie both hands behind my back it wouldn't even be a situation. Don't forget that the demented are extremely unpredictable and can have amazing speed and strength. There's an extremely good chance you'd end up with more than a superficial cut. I'm glad you'd try for the disarm - perhaps you should look into becoming a cop, as you sound like you've got the makings of a good one.

As for the cut OFF finger, it doesn't really matter (from a legal or moral standpoint - I'm sure it matters greatly to the amputee) if it was a tiny cut or a severing of the arm at the shoulder. The question remains - was it justifiable use of force? If the officer truely believed the suspect to have a weapon and could get to it if she slipped from her coat sleeve, then perhaps it was (assuming he was trying to cuff her, not cut her). I hate to belabour the point, but if we weren't there, we may never really know.

The history of both the officer and the suspect could shed light, though it wouldn't prove anything. Does the officer have a history of using excessive force? Does the suspect have a history of resisting arrest?

[spacemanspiff]

Don't forget that the demented are extremely unpredictable and can have amazing speed and strength.

oh yeah, thats why we always hear of great-grandparents assaulting their family and friends and nurses and caretakers because of 'dementia'. they are such deadly threats because they can move with ninja-like speed and dexterity.

trained police are supposed to be able to disarm a suspect using hand-to-hand combat, are they not?

reminds me of some weird show i watched late last night, i think it was called 'the blotter', a satire about police calls in some small town. one of their 'top' threats was from 'low-speed chases'. it was in a "Cops" format, and narrated by the town sheriff. they had a low-speed chase that took 2 and a half hours to resolve. an old lady driving 5 mph and then needed to be 'negotiated' out of the vehicle when she finally came to a stop. their methods at getting suspects out of the vehicle included 'smoking them out', or tossing a lit firecracker towards the vehicle and firing warning shots into the air.
i was laughing myself hoarse as the officer waved his gun at the old lady and tried to get her to put her arms in the air, turn around, search her, and then shoot out her tires.
the next case was a drug bust, with the suspect fleeing on foot and into a neighbors yard where he picked up a "ugly arse baby" as a hostage and then the "ugly arse baby's" mother pulled a shotgun on him and another neighbor pulled a gun on both of them for being on her property.
it was hilarious.

[pax]

Under the same circumstances, if some strange man had walked up to my car, shined a light in my face, and started making demands of me ...

I think he'd be dead.

I think the officer should be thanking his lucky stars that he's only dealing with lawsuits and departmental actions if that, rather than being the star player at his own funeral.

pax

[Betty]

:eek:

I am so utterly speechless over this incident.

[Daniel T]

Morgan:

Well, I wouldn't attempt a disarm in every situation. You should adapt to circumstances. A fully capable person in the same situation with a knife would be far more dangerous than a crippled old lady.

Yeah, I know what the goggles would be for. My point is that it still wouldn't be an equal situation, but you seem to agree, so there's no point in harping on the issue.

If the officer truely believed the suspect to have a weapon and could get to it if she slipped from her coat sleeve, then perhaps it was (assuming he was trying to cuff her, not cut her). I hate to belabour the point, but if we weren't there, we may never really know.

Well, we can look at what the cop wrote in his report, which was that he used the knife "to speed up" the cuffing process. Doesn't sound like he thought she was armed. I'm curious though: what should happen when a suspect is being cuffed, but has a heavy coat on? Is it a normal procedure to destroy their clothes to cuff them?

Does the officer have a history of using excessive force?

You mean, besides killing the old woman? ;)

[Sergeant Bob]

Don't forget that the demented are extremely unpredictable and can have amazing speed and strength. There's an extremely good chance you'd end up with more than a superficial cut.
Headline.....79 Year Old, Senile, Arthritic, Deaf Granny goes on 3 Room Killing Spree!! :rolleyes:

[Trisha]

To demistify and deconstruct the stereotype of LEO's being "jackbooted thugs," over a decade ago, I began seeing LEO's as people - and to my surprise , they are.

Most are overwhelmingly good, some are not - and a few are nightmares living the worst to be found under the classification of "abuse of power."

As Susan is a medic with the local Rescue service and I'm an unpaid non-medical volunteer, it's now come full circle - and most of our friends and aquaintences are in emergency services.

Yep - I know this is digressing a bit, but I have to agree with Morgan:

Unless you were there as a sober, calm completely objective observer, likely as not you'll never know what went down.

Does the headline make my stomach turn over? You bet - but then I remember that, given the chance, the media portrays nearly everything a gun owner does or says in the worst possible light, yes?

spacemanspiff, a LEO rarely has as much unarmed combat training as any given 6-month student in martial arts. I know it's safer to say "It's their job," but if you think you could do a better job, go get your POST certification and show everyone how it's done, right?

Susan and I have great delight in obliging our Deputies with demonstrations of "how would you handle this..." at full-speed (on soft ground when possible), pulling back a little on the power so as not to break/dislocate anything. It gets even more fun when the rookie feels a little more confident with me (Susan has quite a reputation after all these years...)...

:D

pax, I agree with you, too: if I saw nothing to certify I was dealing with a LEO, the person would get both barrels of my Model 1 in the face.

To those of you who have knee-jerk reflexes against anybody with a badge: walk a couple miles in their shoes.

Trisha

[Morgan]

Headline.....79 Year Old, Senile, Arthritic, Deaf Granny goes on 3 Room Killing Spree!!

Now that would be pretty amazing, but a quick cut to someone attempting a disarm wouldn't. I probably wouldn't have handled the situation the same way, but a knife is never a laughing matter.

[Tamara]

To those of you who have knee-jerk reflexes against anybody with a badge...

"Anybody"? Nah, only those who run around cutting folks fingers off and zapping septuagenarians...

[spacemanspiff]

spacemanspiff, a LEO rarely has as much unarmed combat training as any given 6-month student in martial arts. I know it's safer to say "It's their job," but if you think you could do a better job, go get your POST certification and show everyone how it's done, right?

well that was my question. i have no idea how much hand-to-hand training they recieve. nor do i know how much practice they have with threat assessment.
nor do i have any ill feelings towards LEO, as they are human and do make mistakes. but we are human too, are we not? and are we as gunowners not encouraged and even expected to be a cut above the rest? what if it was you or me who had to fend off an attack from a elderly knife weilding assailant? if we shot them would we not be crucified for killing what we thought was a threat on our life, but was actually just grandma suffering the effects of old age?

LEO get a bad rap and suffer the consequences of the few who are not fit for the job. if only they could all have been trained by the likes of Lawdog or any other LEO who posts on these forums.

[Pendragon]

It is 100% inappropriate to draw a knife while trying to arrest someone.

You might as well arrest people with a gun to their head and your finger in the trigger. Its the same thing.

This cop is an idiot - he had no business trying to use a deadly weapon to "speed up" an arrest on an unarmed person who already has one hand cuffed.

He should have used a chemical agent or a pain hold.

This is the definition of excessive force and criminal negligence.

She should get 7 figures, he should do time.

[spacemanspiff]

this is the kind of tactic i'd begrudgingly expect from a mall ninja, not a Law Enforcement Officer.

[Phyphor]

"if only they could all have been trained by the likes of Lawdog or any other LEO who posts on these forums."

I wouldn't wish that mall ninja on Lawdog, or any of the other LEOs on this board. Besides, can you just imagine the stories he'd tell about training that guy? No doubt there'd be many 'sighs' popping up. :banghead: :cuss: :fire: :what:

[Mike Irwin]

Well, at least he didn't shoot her dog. That's all I can say...

[DeltaElite]

Well, at least he didn't shoot her dog. That's all I can say...

LMAO, yah then they would be in real trouble. :p

[2nd Amendment]

OK, I am not going to elaborate on this so just do not ask. Has anyone ever seen a persons finger chopped off? It's not like cutting a steak. It isn't like slicing off a chunk of cheese.

To lop off someones finger, even with a sharp knife, you have to WANT to do it. And be willing to work at it. And get messy...especially when the victim isn't just standing there saying "cut me, Baby".

The cop chopped off her finger. There is no accident here. There's a considered decision to inflict permanent damage on a weaker individual. For those saying "You weren't there" you're correct. You weren't.

I have been.

I hope they fry the bastard.

[Mike Irwin]

"Has anyone ever seen a persons finger chopped off?"

Individual finger? No.

Hand? Yes.

Arm? At the elbow? Yes.

Head? Yes.

[2nd Amendment]

Head?

I don't even wanna know.

[Mike Irwin]

2nd Amendment,

In order:

Auto accident (always listen to your Mother when she says keep your hands inside the car!)

Manure auger (but that was more ripping than chopping...)

Auto accident (Is Ms. Mansfield in the house?)

[sm]

Granted I wasn't there, however I have dealt with senile dementia in a clinical setting--yeah things can get wierd, but not to the point of shooting. Two people can remove scissors and a third can give a shot. (meds)

I've been in the main OR, takes a bit to remove a limb, even a finger. Just how MUCH force and pressure does "removal of a sleeve" require...dunno, seen a bunch of stuff in surgery, just ain't adding up in my mind.

[Ed Brunner]

Did the article say the finger was severed at the first joint. I, too find it hard to see that as an accident. If I read the article correctly, she asked repeatedly for ID and didn't get it. This was Detroit , right? I am not surprised that she thought he was a carjacker.

Re the 79 yr old senile and arthritic grandmother armed with a kitchen knife. No, I was not there and there is a lot that I don't know about it. I just picture myself in a similar situation and wonder how I would feel explaining that I had no other option but to SHOOT her. I am not a ninja, but chances are I could have kept her from cutting me. For one thing I could probably run faster than she could.

[BrianW]

FWIW, I've severed the first knuckle joint of many, many bear toes as part of the skinning process, it takes a sharp knife and lots of practice to do it with any speed. A skilled skinner takes perhaps 30 seconds/knuckle, a true expert maybe 15 seconds. I imagine that "slicing" through a human knuckle with a single stroke is nigh on impossible (though I don't know for sure) and would think that it would take a heck of a chop to hack through the bone/cartilage.

Another "food for thought" bitesized nugget: my mom is an RN at a nursing home, caring for the elderly including the snile and "demented". She's been doing it for decades, and has been involved in a few set-tos with confused patients. Ma is 64, about 5'1" tall and weighs in at almost 100 lbs in a winter coat and heavy boots. On one occasion an old man knocked her across a room into a table; she had to get 5 or 6 stitches in her forehead. After she put the old guy to bed by herself.

[Tamara]

What I can't get over is the fact that, after already costing the department one wrongful death lawsuit, this knucklehead was not only allowed to continue to roam about without adult supervision, but moved from uniformed patrol to plainclothes, where he promptly lops some lady's finger off.

My psychic powers tell me that somebody in the Detroit PD besides Officer Guillotine is gonna be filling out unemployment forms before all is said and done...

[Miss Demeanors]

http://www.familyfriendsfirearms.com/vB/images/smilies/omg.gif :mad: What a horrible thing! I find it very hard to believe it was an accident.

[Powderman]

Excuse me, I know I don't have a lot of time on the job here--but what was that idiot doing pulling out a knife?

How did he develop PC to even stop this woman?

Did he absolutely, positively, have to draw down on an old woman?

Something really stinks here--and it ain't fish.

Oh, yeah--cutting off someone's sleeve to cuff? Never heard of that one. What do they teach at those high grade eastern poleese academies?

[Justin Moore]

What I can't get over is the fact that, after already costing the department one wrongful death lawsuit, this knucklehead was not only allowed to continue to roam about without adult supervision, but moved from uniformed patrol to plainclothes, where he promptly lops some lady's finger off.

I guess all that Federal training is paying off ;)

[sm]

My guess is Nepotism

[Tamara]

Okay, spin this one for us. How was there a legitimate, or even accidental, reason to cut this woman's finger off?

So far, every cop I've talked about this with said "He was cutting her sleeve off!?!?!?".

[Joe Demko]

Frankly, I don't see what you cop-bashers are all so up set about. The officer did nothing wrong. 79 years old? Disabled? Demented? Feh. B-- had a knife, call the coroner. The other woman? Resisted arrest. Seemed like she was armed. B-- is lucky all she lost was a finger. The most important thing is that the officer got to go home safely to his family at the end of the shift.

[riverdog]

I keep hearing this stuff about the most important thing is for the officer to go home after his shift, but there are some things he needs to do before he earns that right, such as not bullying citizens who are otherwise minding their own business. Shooting a 79 year old lady in her home was questionable but perhaps can be stretched to be within the scope of his duties. Cutting off a finger because a citizen happened to fight back against a mugger/car-jacker? Inadverdently cut off her finger with a folding knife? That earns you the right to go to your cell, not home.

I'm not a cop basher, I just want a higher standard.

[2nd Amendment]

OK, now that was sarcasm. :D

Mike - OK, accidents I've seen. Worst was a biker who had his left leg torn off in the middle of his thigh. I tried to do a tourniquet till the cops arrived. Not much left to tie off though.

But no, the finger thing I should have been more specific about, I guess. It wasn't an accident. And it wasn't quick. The more I think about it the more I can't imagine how this clown in question here could have even managed it.

[cratz2]

Papers! Let me see your papers!

I think that it's about time for the law enforcement that is afraid to do their sworn duties to quit. When were the police officially given the right to use agressive and possibly fatal force against someone that may be armed or may be resisting arrest?

[ojibweindian]

One does not "accidentally" cut off a person's finger. It takes a little work. I've seen my share of "nasty" stuff while a corpsman in the Navy, in case one needs to know my "credentials".

[Shootin' Buddy]

"BADGES? WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING BADGES!!!"

[Morgan]

When were the police officially given the right to use agressive and possibly fatal force against someone that may be armed or may be resisting arrest?

You're kidding, right? Police are required to deal with people who might be armed or resist arrest. What're we supposed to do, sit down and discuss the matter over a cup of tea?

Back on topic, it looks like the administration is going to hang this guy out for the woman giving him the finger, and rightly so.

[pax]

Two things depress me about this story.

I'm depressed and distressed to realize that the bad cop is not going to pay for this at all. He might, at the most, get fired, because it sounds as though his department is hanging him out to dry. But he won't go to jail for assault, which is what should happen. Instead, the taxpayers will probably have to pay the woman a hefty bunch of money. And that's it.

But the thing that depresses me most about this story is the thing that disgusted me most about the incident with the roadblock in Arizona and the incident with the dog-shooting in Tenessee and the incident with the bars in Virginia, the same thing that disgusts me whenever I read about American citizens being held without trial, without bail, and without access to a lawyer, the same thing that disgusts me when I read about the shenanigans that Jim March is uncovering in the California CCW wars or about some new and outrageous use of ZT policies in the schools.

I'm disgusted every time these things come up, not so much at the individual evidence of police brutality or politicians trampling on the Constitution or bureaucrats spitting on human rights -- though those are disgusting enough. No, the very most disgusting thing about this incident and about most of the others is that no one is surprised by it.

People who still believe in human rights might be unhappy, angry, or even infuriated to hear about things like this happening in America.

But not surprised.

Never surprised.

Isn't that depressing?

pax

If someone is so fearful that, that they're going to start using their weapons to protect their rights, makes me very nervous that these people have these weapons at all! --Rep. Henry Waxman

[cratz2]

You're kidding, right? Police are required to deal with people who might be armed or resist arrest. What're we supposed to do, sit down and discuss the matter over a cup of tea?

I am SO not kidding.

Let's see here... you leave a wallet on your car, I'm gonna kill your dog because it might go for my throat. You resist arrest, I'm gonna cut off your finger because you might have some little gun hidden up your sleeve.

Risks, man. You get paid to take risks. These people are innocent until proven guilty in a court regardless of what danger you think you might be in. You don't get paid to cut off innocent people's fingers and kill innocent people's dogs. That's what they do in China and that's what they did in Nazi Germany.

Is it a tough job? Yes. Are 99% of us glad there are people willing to do this job? Absolutely! Does it give any LEO the right to cut off a finger of any person for any reason? No way! No way any person, LEO or not, will say that the right thing to do was to cut off her finger to expedite hand-cuffing her. Would it really have taken that much longer to take her coat off? Like I said on the dog thread, decisions get made and mistakes get made. You cut off someones finger because you didn't want to take their coat off and you aren't allowed to be a cop anymore. :rolleyes:

[cratz2]

Edited after removing cranium from rectum. :D

[2nd Amendment]

Edited upon Cratz' recovery from Cranial-Rectitis. :neener:

[Joe Demko]

My dear cratz2,

Unbunch your panties. I seem not to have slathered the sarcasm on thickly enough for you to detect it.

[Morgan]

Sarcasm, a wonderful form of humor.

Cratz, I think we're talking different stuff here. I'm saying that, in appropriate circumstances with a non-compliant suspect, force up to and including lethal force is legally and morally okay. Cutting off someone's finger who is passively resisting is not.

It can be a violent world, and violence can be a necessary tool.

[Cal4D4]

"Soldiers kill with simple will, I've seen them fall fast and steady"
Corrosion of Conformity

[DeltaElite]

Golgo,
I must admit I missed the sarcasm also, you see I still have to work with some people who think that way. :mad:
Sighhhhhhhhhhhh
I was afraid you were one of them, since you mimicked their argument so well. ;)

[cratz2]

Golgo,
I must admit I missed the sarcasm also, you see I still have to work with some people who think that way.

I think that's my problem as well. :rolleyes: With the internet, it's sometimes hard to detect what is scarcasm and what is serious, esp when you're already fired up.

So, no hard feelings Golgo, consider my panties officially unbunched.

[Betty]

Edited after removing cranium from rectum.

Good - you edited before I did.

:scrutiny:

[sm]

Again you bring up a good point.
Dehumanization perhaps?
The "me me" thinking?
Yeah its sad, depressing...
I can't even get my own sibs to get concerned about mom's phone beening busy for 6 hours, no pc, no internet. I call sibs and state I'm driving over to check. No concern did she fall, get home invaded...nah just a yeah ok we're gonna watch a movie-bye.

Tamara, in this case no reason to cut finger off.

terrible car wreck, some other really weird circumstance maybe lose a limb to save a life. Seen where seat belts cut away from accidents, clothing might get cut...no ...not in a situation as this lady involved in.

[Powderman]

This might just be inexperience talking, but..............

So far, in my limited tenure in Law Enforcement, I have yet to see or think of ANY arrest scenario where a knife has to be used. For seat belts, yes--my primary reason for carrying a Spyderco Endura. As a utility tool, yes.

As a means to effect a lawful detention or arrest? Not no, but HELL no.

"To get her coat out of the way?"

Yeah, right. :fire: :cuss:

[Tamara]

Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out which Police Academy movie this cuffing technique came from. Or maybe it was a Tarantino flick... :scrutiny:

[Lone_Gunman]

I wonder which super-tactical Spyderco or Cold Steel knife he did this brilliant piece of police work with.

[Coronach]

Sigh. MSIE just ate my last attempt to post.

Lets try this again.

1. The knife:

He was...trying to handcuff her...with a knife out?

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over?

Oh...he was trying to cut off her sleeves?

Uhm...

Alright, thats not gonna fly.

Absent some pretty unusual circumstances (as in, I can't even imagine what those might be), this is not a good reason to have your knife out during handcuffing.

2. The stop:

You need to have marked units for stops, absent exigent circumstances.

3. The shooting:

I'm getting a little annoyed with posters objecting to the position that we cannot state whether a shooting was justified or not unless you were A. there or B. have all the facts that would be presented during an investigation or hearing. If you take a moment and flip the script, you can see how silly these objections are.

For instance, lets say you as a private citizen CCW holder get involved in a shooting. The news media does its usual hack job of reporting, and the attorney for the guy you capped is, of course, loudly proclaiming his version of events to all and sundry. Lets say you log onto an internet discussion forum and witness a bunch of people who were not there Monday-morning QBing your actions. Just how far afield is the discussion gonna stray from the actual facts of the case?

A. Far.
B. Really far.
C. Really darned far.
D. So far you can't see it from here.
E. So far the USS Enterprise would have to go on a 5-year mission to get there.

I'll take E, thanks.

Now, getting back to the shooting (the facts of which are not exactly well-reported)...

Can an elderly woman with dementia and a knife be a threat worthy of lethal force?

Absolutely yes.

Can an elderly woman with dementia and a knife be a threat that upon which only a fool would use lethal force?

Again, yes.

And none of us here know, based upon the facts reported of the case, which it was...though I will freely admit that the same officer's later misadventure with a bladed weapon and handcuffing makes me more likely to lean toward the latter than I normally would.

Oh, and this:trained police are supposed to be able to disarm a suspect using hand-to-hand combat, are they not?No, we're not. At least not in the manner you imply.

Back on task...bottom line? Sounds like a dufus.

Mike

[Tamara]

The only relevant fact on his previous shooting is that, when presented with all the facts that you and I don't have, 12 good men and true (plus one judge) decided that the DPD owed the next of kin a sizeable chunk of change. Not only was the officer allowed to continue to roam the streets without adult supervision after this, he was moved to plainclothes instead of to the meter maid unit. The results of that brilliant personnel decision kinda speak for themselves... ;)

[Coronach]

Well, I won't argue your latter point, in light of my agreement with it. ;)

Your former point, though...was it a settlement or a jury decision? I'm not exactly willing to go to bat for this clown, but settlements mean nothing. Up until recently, our PD settled every case in which it was sued. Were officers wrong in some of them? Of course. But ALL?

Still, we are in agreement, more or less. Dufus, by the looks of it.

Mike

[Blackhawk]

Geoffrey Fieger is representing the woman. The City of Detroit is going to compensate her handsomely for her fingertip.... :fire:

[Edward429451]

Interesting how this forum seems to always have all the facts.

Also interesting how police behavior is becoming more predictable. Any idiot can see a pattern developing.

I see the sunset is reddish orange tonight, but thats no reason to think its going to be warm tomorrow...:rolleyes:

[Coronach]

Edward...finger outside the triggerguard. ;) :D

And I disagree. I think that events like this get media play, the same way that shooting sprees at schools do. Does this mean that shootings at schools are more prevalent now than they were before?

Mike

[cratz2]

And that's a strange tripletap, too.

4:39, 4:47 and 4:49 post times.

:confused:

[Coronach]

Now I do it too...I've been having weird connection issues all afternoon.

Mike

[LawDog]

:scrutiny:

He did what with a knife?

During an arrest?

Are y'all pulling my leg?

LawDog

[Lonnie Jaycox]

Lawyers may be able to answer this: I think it is legally significant for the idiot--er officer invovled that the knife used was NOT issued by the department (as they clearly stated), my guess is there is some provision about personal weapons being a no no in the rules. He is going to give his house and most all of his other possessions to this woman. The city is going to be sued also, but he going to get it as a person.

[Byron Quick]

He DESERVES to give his house and all of his possessions to his victim. He also deserves to spend several years in a state penitentiary in the general population as an example to his peers.

[Tamara]

Nah, most all cops carry knives. Spydiecos, Benchmades, what-have-you.

As you may have gathered from the responses of the various TFL LEOs, however, this Detroit officer may be kinda unique in what he thinks it is supposed to be used for. :eek:

[DeltaElite]

Let's see......
I have used my Spyderco to cut fingerprint tape, packing tape, rope from a hanging victim, rope from a robbery victims and a few other items.
I don't recall any body parts. ;)
I have not seen the need to cut the clothes off of someone I am trying to arrest.

I'm just not seeing it happening. Nope, wouldn't be prudent.

[LawDog]

*snort*

One of my back-up weapons is a five-inch push dagger from Cold Steel, Defender 1, I think.

Anyhoo, I was shucking my arsenal into a lock-box prior to entering the jail, and a veteran officer sees the blade, turns to his rookie partner and says, "A lot of officers carry those kinds of knives because you can grab a suspect with the same hand you're holding the knife in."

After shooting coffee out my nose, I quietly took the veteran aside and kind of hinted that he might not ought to pull the rookies leg like that.

I will spam thee not, the next day he comes into the office and shows me a Cold Steel catalog with an article in it saying that officers could grab a suspect while holding a push knife between the fingers.

I about spit. Are they nuts?!

Folks, a sharp instrument has no place in a handcuffing officers hands during the handcuffing phase of an arrest - no more than a pistol belongs in the same officers hands.

Some peoples kids, I swear.

LawDog

[Sergeant Bob]

Geoffrey Fieger is representing the woman. The City of Detroit is going to compensate her handsomely for her fingertip....
Heck, he wouldn't even have to do anything. They'd pay just to get him out of their courtroom.

[Powderman]

Whoa. If there have been double and triple tap responses, the last one was a Bill drill!!:neener:

I'm still trying to figure out just what doofus had his knife out for anyway.

I can't think of any scenario where you would draw a knife to arrest someone.

I also can't think of any scenario where you would have to cut someone's clothing to apply restraints.

I won't even try to guess--but it sounds like some of the same "big-city" policing techniques that I saw while growing up in the City of Chicago. And I do mean "in".

[Coronach]

Also, kinda by definition, if you're handcuffing him, he's not handcuffed yet. Do I really want to put a bladed weapon down by his hands?

I mean, forget the possibility of him getting cut. I'm worried about ME getting cut.

Like I said before...absent some bizarre circumstances, this one ain't gonna fly.

Mike

[griz]

Disclaimer: I have never handcuffed a single person.

What I don't understand is this, you believe this person is armed, you have both of your hands engaged in the struggle, and you are going to LET GO with one hand to get a knife? Lacking verisimilitude me thinks.

The story did say there were other officers there. It will be intereting to hear what they say about the officer ID and the "struggle".

[TheeBadOne]

http://www.huntchat.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25227

From another board


Always good to hear both sides, right?

Well, funny as it may be, I also know the cop that was ON THIS CALL. Here is his take on it, word for word:

"I was working along side Officer Anthony Johnson (AJ) on the night of this now infamous "finger" incident. Here is what TV and the papers do not tell you:

AJ had the woman's right hand cuffed. She was prone on the ground but refused to give Johnson her left hand. She retracted her left hand into her long coat sleeve and placed her arm underneath her body. She ignored several orders to surrender her left hand for handcuffing.

Johnson grabbed the end of the coat sleeve and used it to pull her arm from underneath her. He then made a decision to cut off the end of the sleeve, hoping to speed up the cuffing process. In doing so, he cut her fingers accidentally. The portion of her ring finger that was severed was about ¼ inch in length (It was the pad of her fingertip, about half way down the nail). From what I could tell, the bone in her finger was not cut. The laceration on her middle finger was slight.

It was an accident, and yes, it was a mistake. There were better options to get this woman cuffed. Although it takes several minutes to tell the story, the entire incident was over in seconds. As soon as we realized what happened, I uncuffed her and applied a pressure bandage. I recovered the piece of flesh and placed it in a plastic bag, later turning it over to the responding EMS.

No one feels worse about this than AJ. We made no effort to hide the truth in our reports (a common strategy for officers who face irrational and political witch-hunts from an Internal Affairs Bureau that cares no more for the truth than do criminals).

The woman was intoxicated (.15 BAC) and will be charged with OUIL. As with most incidents where citizens end up injured through police action, this debacle started when a hostile drunk refused to submit to lawful arrest.

AJ admitted to what he did and is very sorry. This was an unfortunate accident that has been exaggerated to a ridiculous degree. Anthony Johnson is a treasure to the Detroit Police Department. He is probably the best cop I have ever seen. He is well respected and highly talented. He is a natural leader, a devoutly religious man, and is known for his high degree of character. AJ works at Detroit’s harsh 9th Precinct and leads the Special Ops squad, which is tasked with proactive operations against street robberies and B&Es.

As far as this past incident where AJ was forced to shoot to death a “decrepit, feeble, old lady,” this is another example where the media presents only one side of the story. This woman, although elderly, somehow was quite mobile when she lunged at another officer with a knife. It was a crowded house with many people fighting and screaming. The uniformed officer in her sights was in no position to retreat, and he credits AJ for saving his life.

The shooting incident WAS investigated fully. AJ was cleared, and not because of lack of evidence or a police conspiracy! He was cleared because he did nothing wrong. The family was paid a $350K settlement. It is the policy of the City of Detroit to pass out money to avoid litigation. AJ has a sterling discipline record. He is not known for excessive force as the media has implied. Given that AJ has worked nearly ten years on Detroit’s worst streets—and has done high-felony police work with extreme effectiveness, his lack of disciplinary history is a testament to his professionalism and integrity.

What people see on television and in the papers is so far removed from reality, it is hard to believe that anyone calls it news. I call it “info-tainment,” and it is designed not to inform, but to simply sell advertising. Nor can we believe criminals who refuse to stand accountable and admit that they may have contributed to their own misfortune."

[Daniel T]

Well, that makes it all ok then. I mean, she was drunk, so it's her fault that she got her finger cut off. The guy is obviously a hero for shooting the old woman. "She's coming right for us!"

[Edward429451]

this debacle started when a hostile drunk refused to submit to lawful arrest

Would that be 'hostile pre-cop' or 'hostile post-cop'?

[Joe Demko]

Clearly, Tony Johnson is not only blameless in both episodes, but should be decorated for service above and beyond the call of duty. The city would be well advised to consider promoting him to Chief of Police, if not Commissioner. I hope that you cop-bashers feel properly chastened now that the truth about this hero has finally been revealed.

[griz]

TheeBadOne

What does this officer say about whether or not AJ IDed himself?

[TheeBadOne]

Griz, didn't say, but I'd assumed the officer was in uniform.

[Greg L]

Around 2:30 a.m. Sunday, Johnson and two other officers were riding in an unmarked car on a special burglary patrol

They weren't in a marked squad car. With a spotlight in her eyes the woman said all she could see was an outline of someone coming at her. The article didn't say if they were in uniform or not.

If I was standing around and a regular car pulled up, shined a bright light in my face and then was advanced upon menacingly, I would be fighting back too.

Greg

[Greg L]

Also from the first page of the thread:
The police, who were in plainclothes, said she was resisting arrest. The woman, Joni Gullas of Detroit, said Monday that she thought she was being carjacked.

Plain clothes, unmarked car, I would be thinking carjack too.

Greg

[Daniel T]

I hope that you cop-bashers feel properly chastened now that the truth about this hero has finally been revealed.

Oh, I do. Badguys beware, Officer AJ is coming for your fingers.

[Tamara]

Plain clothes, unmarked car, I would be thinking carjack too.

Plainclothes, unmarked car, Detroit... Yup.

Did you know that in Georgia it is a law that any vehicle doing traffic enforcement must have the name of the operating agency clearly marked in letters of a contrasting color no less than six inches high along both sides and the decklid? Makes plenty of sense to me.

[Joe Demko]

Have any of you considered the legitimate needs of law enforcement in your blind opposition to authority? All perps are routinely fingerprinted. This perp refused to submit to the officer's lawful authority. He was simply making sure it would be possible to fingerprint her despite her criminal resistance to his commands.

[ArmsAkimber]

So the officer didn't say anything about the uniform status of "AJ," or whether he was in a marked cruiser?

So much for the other side of the story. :scrutiny: According to the Detroit News, "AJ" was on undercover duty at the time. Now, I'm no expert on law enforcement, but I have the impression that undercover means something besides blue uniform, fancy hat, cruiser with "POLICE" in big bold letters, etc.

Cover-ups take many forms. One can attempt to hide information. One can also disseminate mis-information. One can also tell the truth, shade it with innuendo, dismiss really bad things as trivial (not THAT much of the finger was lopped off), and omit relevant information.

Apparently, the thin blue line is really sharp; sharp enough to cut a finger on (or off, for that matter).

I think this scenario has already been commented on by another member, but I want to float a hypothetical question to those who are inclined to side with "AJ." If Joni was a licensed CCW holder, and was armed, waiting in her car, and was approach by a man in plainclothes, claiming to be a cop, who than began grappling with her, and she ended up sending AJ to the big precinct house in the sky, having every reason to believe she was being car-jacked, how many would be calling for reserved judgment until all sides of the story are heard? :confused:

[2nd Amendment]

Golgo, ya know, you lay on sarcasm with a trowel. :D

[Daniel T]

I think this scenario has already been commented on by another member, but I want to float a hypothetical question to those who are inclined to side with "AJ." If Joni was a licensed CCW holder, and was armed, waiting in her car, and was approach by a man in plainclothes, claiming to be a cop, who than began grappling with her, and she ended up sending AJ to the big precinct house in the sky, having every reason to believe she was being car-jacked, how many would be calling for reserved judgment until all sides of the story are heard?

I have to say that if she was as drunk as the police have indicated, and was CCW, licensed or not, and shot someone, she'd be a murderer. It's good for everyone involved that she wasn't.

[TheeBadOne]

I have to say that if she was as drunk as the police have indicated, and was CCW, licensed or not, and shot someone, she'd be a murderer. It's good for everyone involved that she wasn't.

Demise, haven't you learned a thing on here yet? You never talk about the persons actions or responsibilities and if you do a hypothitical it's open ended on the persons part but a dead end on the cops part....

[ArmsAkimber]

I have to say that if she was as drunk as the police have indicated, and was CCW, licensed or not, and shot someone, she'd be a murderer. It's good for everyone involved that she wasn't.

So, AJ performed a breath test and was able to quantifiably determine she was "drunk," ( is that 0.1, no wait, it's 0.08....and dropping) before he dragged her out of the car and began lopping off a body part?

I really didn't expect an answer to my question...:rolleyes:


Regarding the drunkness issue: Does having a BAC above whatever arbitrary number government decides means "drunk" mean you are no longer permitted to defend yourself? If I am sitting in my living room, enjoying my second glass of Chardonnay while watching "Farscape," and a thug (jackbooted or otherwise; not clearly identifiable as law enforcement) kicks in my door, am I no longer permitted to defend myself with my Combat Commander because my BAC is above 0?

If so, color me a criminal, but I'll draw a bead, regardless.

[Daniel T]

ArmsAkimber:

Regarding the drunkness issue: Does having a BAC above whatever arbitrary number government decides means "drunk" mean you are no longer permitted to defend yourself? If I am sitting in my living room, enjoying my second glass of Chardonnay while watching "Farscape," and a thug (jackbooted or otherwise; not clearly identifiable as law enforcement) kicks in my door, am I no longer permitted to defend myself with my Combat Commander because my BAC is above 0?

What does that have to do with Carrying a Concealed Weapon? If the state you live in requires that you not be intoxicated when you are CCW, and you get drunk and shoot someone with said weapon, then you are guilty of a crime. Just like running over someone with a car, except the law won't be as nice to you about it.

If you're drunk in your home and shoot someone, be prepared to aggressively defend your actions, because hard questions about your ability to make reasonable decisions while drunk will be forthcoming.

[ArmsAkimber]

What does that have to do with Carrying a Concealed Weapon? If the state you live in requires that you not be intoxicated when you are CCW, and you get drunk and shoot someone with said weapon, then you are guilty of a crime. Just like running over someone with a car, except the law won't be as nice to you about it.

I don't think CCW is relevant, and I didn't mention intoxication in my original question, as I'll address below. But the issue of self-defense "under the influence" interests me...

I haven't seen an answer to whether the law forbids me to defend myself if my BAC is north of zero, whether that defense take the form of a gun or a car.

Also, notice how my question concerning defending myself with a firearm after two glasses of Chard becomes "you get drunk and shoot someone." What is drunk, and why was someone shot? Not relevant?

As I said, my proposed hypothetical question did not mention that the woman was drunk. So, I'll ask the question again, stipulating sobriety on the part of the lady:

If Joni was a licensed CCW holder, and was armed, and sober, waiting in her car, and was approach by a man in plainclothes, claiming to be a cop, who than began grappling with her, and she ended up sending AJ to the big precinct house in the sky, having every reason to believe she was being car-jacked, how many would be calling for reserved judgment until all sides of the story are heard? :confused: :confused:

If the scenario played out as I describe, I suspect there is a contigent here who would just cluck there tongues and say "too bad" if the thug was just a two-bit criminal, but would want the woman's blood if the thug turned out to be a plainclothes cop who failed to credibly ID himself. :uhoh: