I have a 30-06, what more or less does a new rifle in 300 win mag offer?


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datruth
December 23, 2007, 11:23 PM
I want to get into long range shooting , just paper punching, maybe hunting but Unlikly, I have a savage 110 in 30-06 but I see it will be more of a hunting rifle , I want to get another rifle and 300 win mag will be the best bet from what I have read in terms of the applications it has been used for so far, long range shooting mainly, LE/MIL sniping, competition .etc but I would like to know or see some set ups and hear how some of your 300 wins have treated you all so far. And let me say this, I thank all of those that have helped me with all the questions I have had previously, you have treated a serviceman with respect and dignity, and I really appreciate it as anybody would , I just glad to find a site where others love and respect firearms and shooting sports as much as I do.Thanks, Hooah :D my rifle is pictured in the last post http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=318658

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TimboKhan
December 23, 2007, 11:35 PM
You should send a PM to Zak Smith. He is pretty much the LR shooting expert of the high road, and though there are other guys that know what they are talking about, he is the one that I would pay first and most attention too.

browningguy
December 24, 2007, 12:18 AM
I'm not Zak Smith, but I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.

The difference between the '06 and the .300 Winny is all in our minds, a couple of hundred FPS and a lot more recoil and noise. I know as I currently have three 30-06's and one .300 Winny. To be honest the .300 really does have an advantage with 190 gr. and heavier bullets, the real long range stuff, but you really do pay for it in recoil.

For long range target shooting I would go with one of the following rounds:
.243 Win. (that's what I use)
.260 Rem.

They are low recoil, have high BC bullets available for paper punching, and are decent deer cartridges. In a bolt action with a fast twist barrel these will shoot 1000 yards with anything out there, although they are not the best for 600 yard deer hunting. Lots of other 6, 6.5 and 7mm cartridges are also up to the task, and maybe the 7mm Remington Mag is a pretty ideal middle ground.

Outlaws
December 24, 2007, 12:20 AM
You don't need a 300 WIN for long range shooting, what you need is a quality rifle and scope. There are a lot of rounds that will perform at 600-1000 yards, but the rifle should be the most important thing to consider financially.

6.5-284 is gaining in popularity for 1000 yard shooting. 6.5x55 is good, as is 308, 30-06, 300WIN, and correct me if I am wrong, but 6x47 a name.

http://www.6mmbr.com/1000ydpg02.html

W.E.G.
December 24, 2007, 12:36 AM
I have a 30-06, what more or less does a new rifle in 300 win mag offer?

a LOT more recoil

You really don't want to lay down on top of a .300 unless you have
a REALLY heavy barrel, and a REALLY heavy stock.


...which by the time you build it, and get the glass needed to shoot true "long range" (800 - 1000 yards), you will have spent a REALLY, REALLY lot of money.

Ask me how I know.

ROMAK IV
December 24, 2007, 12:51 AM
I disagree. Using the neavier bullets, a 300 WinMag is similiar in Friction coefficient to the 6.5mm cartridges, and a bit more resistant to crosswinds and such. Buying another Savage from a "package" will provide all the extras in a rifle to fully utilize the cartridge, without breaking the bank, like is likely to occur with other calibers. Out to about 1000 yards, other calibers aren't going to really provide an advantage, and 300 WinMag is usually cheaper and componants more availabe. I happeneed to find a used, but apparantly not fired Savage 112VSS, for a little over $400. With the design of the stock and the weight of the rifle, recoil isn't much of a factor. It came in Stainless steel, with the 28" Fluted barrel and the Savage Accutrigger. I haven't done any long range testing and I have shot with the cheaper grade of amunition, so not much to report.

Mr_Pale_Horse
December 24, 2007, 12:53 AM
300 WinMag

More cost per gun, per shot, per reload
More recoil
More noise

siglite
December 24, 2007, 02:00 AM
I have a 300WM (tikka) that's a real tack hammer. I also have a 308 savage. Guess which one goes to the range with me, whether I'm shooting @100 or 500? The 308. This may sound wimpy, but I'm man enough to admit that the recoil on the 300WM (not to mention the cost) makes it unpleasant to spend the day shooting. I put 100 rounds through my savage yesterday. The last was as sweet as the first, though, it was about 4" low at 300yds, I blame fouling, because, it couldn't have been me. :D

I would NOT have put 100 rounds through that tikka yesterday. The recoil's just too annoying. If I had, I probably wouldn't have enjoyed it much.

skinewmexico
December 24, 2007, 02:30 AM
Of the top 20 finishers at the F Class nationals this year, I believe 15 were shooting some kind of 6.5. Only 1 shooter was using the 300. Times change. And a 6.5 does have better ballistics than the 300.

hamourkiller
December 24, 2007, 04:55 AM
The 30-06 is a great all round caliber, thus it does things at range but not as good as the 300WM.

The 300 WM is a great long range game rifle which works OK at close range.

I use the 30-06 for most of my general hunting, I use the 300 WM as a specific long range game rifle. Why compromise for known long range conditions?

Now as to killing power, using the same bullets loaded to top velocities in both rifles, the 300 WM will get to 250yds or so with the same velocity as the 30-06 at the muzzle. I have noticed that the 300WM blows much bigger holes even when the velocity has equalized. I suspect that the RPM's have greatly increased and the radial forces are pulling the expanding bullet apart more as it travels through the deer.

So I have my 30-06 set up with a 3x9 Leupold scope which works for a broad range of conditions.

My 300 is set up with a 4.5 x 14 Leupold scope which works as a long range deer rifle.

I hunt 90% of the time with the 30-06, but it sure feels good to have the scope and horses for longer shots when the situation calls for it.

rangerruck
December 24, 2007, 05:09 AM
for long range paper, most anything is better than 300winny; that said, firing a 300 with 180 grain or bigger bullets , will get down there real fast, and with a lot of energy, that is why it is preferred as a long range sniper. minimum standards for this seem to suggest a minimum weight 180 grain bullet leaving the muzzle at 3000fps or faster, equals long range performance.
However, if we are just talking target shoot, most any bullet rangeing from 6mm to 7mm, using heavy bullets, will get you downrange in a real straight line, without a lot of recoil, and good wind bucking ability, without pounding the shoulder as well. So I would look in this direction first; heck , even a nice 270 wsm will do real fine, or even handloading the old 6mm remmy, would be kinda cool.

Shawnee
December 24, 2007, 07:23 AM
Hi "Datruth"...

A law of Physics that can help you when you are considering calibers and bullets/loads for long range work is that the ability of a projectile to resist the nasty effects of wind is directly related to how quickly it loses its'velocity. The faster it is losing its' velocity - the more suceptible it will be to being buffeted around by the winds.
The mass, ballistic coefficient and sectional density of the bullet all figure into the equation but the rate of velocity loss can override a lot of any the "gain" from increasing bullet caliber and/or muzzle velocity.
That's one reason why some of the "smaller" calibers (.260, 6.5/.284, 7mm etc.) can outshine the bruisers like the 300 Winnie.
You can see this demonstrated clearly by using a ballisitic calculator that shows wind effect (the Hornady website has one).

HTH, and Good Luck :cool:

wheelgunslinger
December 24, 2007, 07:44 AM
Very good info here.
Very good thread.

Shawnee beat me to the velocity/wind thing.

I also prefer the 06 for availability of different ammo, and the ability to carry a lighter rifle in the backcountry when I'm hunting.
300 mag is a neat big boomer, but I'm unconvinced that it's so superior I should put down the 06

USSR
December 24, 2007, 09:39 AM
There are several of us F Class shooters who have used .30-06's in 1,000 yard competition. I had a 3rd place finish with mine in 2006. That being said, it is a reloading proposition only, as there are no suitable LR Match loads available commercially. My load consists of a 190SMK moving at slightly more than 2900fps, which is nearly what factory .300WM clocks at. It takes approximately 30MOA from a 100 yard zero to reach 1k.

Don

http://www.ussr.baka.com/Win06t1.jpg

datruth
December 24, 2007, 02:41 PM
I was thinking putting a rifle together like that , fluted or heavy barreled, tell me about your rifle set up:confused:

SageMonkey
December 24, 2007, 03:24 PM
In considering 300WM also remember that the cartridge is notorious for quickly eroding barrel throats, and I presume that you will be shooting it a lot.

Winger Ed.
December 24, 2007, 03:40 PM
Paper punching and hunting at longer ranges are really 2 different things.

For practical purposes:
The .30-06 shines as a hunting rifle out to about 300 yards.
(Sure some folks are more capable than that with it- but most aren't)
The .300 goes on out to about 500-ish as effectively as the .30-06 does inside 300.

That was the reasoning and marketing factor/pitch when it was developed.
The .300 can do anything the .30-06 does,,, but a few hundred yards farther away.

For target accuracy at long ranges;
there's a lot of cartridges that are more accurate, and less punishing to shoot.

.

USSR
December 24, 2007, 03:47 PM
USSR , what is your set up Im impressed

I was thinking putting a rifle together like that , fluted or heavy barreled, tell me about your rifle set up

datruth,

Winchester pushfeed Long Action
Fluted 26" Krieger MTU contour barrel (.930" at muzzle)
McMillan A2 stock with adjustable butt and cheek piece
Williams steel, one-piece bottom metal
Speed Lock firing pin and spring
Jewell trigger
Badger 20MOA picatinny base and rings
Leupold 6.5-20x50LR M1 Mildot scope

Jack Krieger did the smithing work of truing the action, chambering specifically for the 190SMK with a 1 1/2 degree leade, and pillar bedding it. I applied the Teflon/Moly finish myself.

Don

U.S.SFC_RET
December 25, 2007, 08:21 AM
Very interesting. It's always interesting to hear what shooter's can do with the 30.06. I like the 300 win but don't see a strong need for one.

The Annoyed Man
December 25, 2007, 10:20 AM
As all the rifles I own are chambered in .308 instead of .30-06, perhaps a .300 Win Mag would be a logical step up for me, bypassing the .30-06 entirely. But truth be told, I've no desire to own the magnum or shoot one, and the .30-06 is a much more friendly - and as USSR pointed out - a certainly capable round. If I were in your shoes, since you have already apparently started down the road of setting your .30-06 up as a long-range shooter by adding the Choate stock and bipod, I would do like USSR, and put the money you now intend to spend on another rifle, instead into developing a truly quality long range shooter like USSR's. If you want to buy a hunting rifle later, you can always get one for less invested than the road you have already embarked upon.

But that's just me.

And thanks for your service, BTW.

atblis
December 25, 2007, 10:27 AM
300 WinMag

More cost per gun, per shot, per reload
More recoil
More noise

You gotta pay if you want to play. 210 Berger VLD at 2850 fps. I think the 06 will get that up to about 2700 fps. Not too far off.

Heavier bullet that'll retain more velocity/energy. How much better....? The law of diminishing returns most certainly applies. Look at what 300 R.U.M. does with over 100 grains of powder.

Chances are 30-06 will cover most of your needs.

If I were hunting at extreme ranges, I'd give the 300W.M. or even 338W.M. a good look

There's always 30-06 Ackley Improved. That'd be amusing to play with.

Geno
December 25, 2007, 10:34 AM
My vote would be for a 6.5 X 284 Win. I believe that is what was used in creating "The One Mile Shot"...that's a video on ultra long-range shooting. I guess in the end, what matters most, is that you know the trajectory and drift. Shoot what you feel comfortable shooting, and that you shoot well.

The Deer Hunter
December 25, 2007, 01:06 PM
http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-equipment/

I don't long range shoot but I have seen other members that do recommend reading everything on that site. I plan on doing some sort or LR shooting in the future and I have read it a couple times. I

akodo
December 25, 2007, 04:08 PM
300 winmag vs 30-06

300 winmag delivers more game killing power for elk sized animals to give you a kill range of about +100 yards, but we are still talking about 500 yards or less.

What it has for it in target shooting? Umm, not much. Slightly flatter trajectory, but then that really isn't relevant, and slightly farther total true max distance, but then that's only really relevant for hitting sides of barns at 2-3 km.

what it has against it for target shooting? Faster barrel wear, fewer shots per dollar.

It seems to me that long range target shooting is about, in the following order, A. The shooter, B. The time spent, and C. The rifle/accessories.

I don't think chambering is relevant, except in how it impacts the above factors. 300 winmag will mean fewer shots per same amount of money, fewer shots before barrel must be replaced, and fewer shots before user fatigue sets in.

CB900F
December 25, 2007, 06:36 PM
Datruth;

Just a few years ago I was at the same decision point you're at now. My parameters were different, but the same caliber choices were under consideration. I was looking for a hunting rifle that would give me enough more than the .30-06 I'd been hunting with for decades to justify the cost. I took a look at the practical differences between the ought-6 & the .300 magnum anything & passed on the .300's.

I wound up buying a .338 Winchester magnum. Now, I'm not into 1000 yard competition, but neither will I pass up a viable long shot. As a point of reference to that statement, the folks who think the .30-06 is a 300 yard gun simply haven't studied the cartridge & done the range time IMHO. The old ought-6 is perfectly capable of taking big game animals at ranges that significantly extend beyond 300 yards, if the shooter has done his homework.

I'll also note that most of the F class people who are taking home the wins are using guns firing something in the 6 to 7mm range. I do believe that the 6mm and 6.5mm/284's are the current cartridges in vogue.

The load I've worked up for my .338 is a 225 grain bullet exiting the muzzle at right on 2900 fps. I find it to be perfectly managable as far as recoil is concerned. During load development, I did try loads that exceeded that one & found that the recoil factor went up steeply. Therefore, I can tell you from some experience, that although the .338 Lapua is ballistically interesting, it's gonna let you know when you turn it loose.

900F

RockyMtnTactical
December 25, 2007, 06:44 PM
I would rather go with a 7mm STW over a 300 win mag. Shoots flatter and outperforms .300 win mag past 250 yards in terms of ballistics.

alsaqr
December 25, 2007, 07:10 PM
Took a doe the other evening at a range of 412 yards with my Remington 700 in .30-06. She bang flopped. The handload is an above recommended quantity of IMR 3031, a Winchester LR primer and the Sierra 150 grain BTSP. The scope is the excellent Leupold FXIII 6X42.

Got two .300 Winchester Magnums, a Mathieu (left hand sold by Weatherby in the 1950s) and a new Ruger 77. Both are accurate, especially the Mathieu with it's 28 inch Buhmiller barrel. Unless i there is a pressing need to shoot at something over 500 yards away they just stay in the safe gathering dust. The Ruger is sometimes used for long range coyote zapping.

target1911
December 25, 2007, 07:59 PM
I have a friend with a 300WM with muzzle brake and the same stock as the OP but its a Winchester rifle. Many of you are talking about the recoil.......Put a good muzzle brake on it. I have put 20-30 rnds at a time thru his with no problem. The recoil is about the same as a 223. Just make sure you get a fairly large MB.

rangerruck
December 25, 2007, 11:38 PM
Now that ussr mentions it, hanloading a 30.06 with some 190 or 200's maybe, would make a .06 be a real nice all around long range, paper puncher, game crusher, without the shoulder burn of the winmag. That is fabulous, USSR, really, I had never though of that!!!

geronimo13
December 26, 2007, 03:37 AM
I just choose a savage package gun in 7mm rem mag as a lot of posts I read said it outperformed the 300 win mag and seemed ballisticly 1/2 way between the .308 and the .338 lupua. But if I already had a 30-06 I wouldn't have bought it. Save your money and spend it on the much cheaper surplus ammo for the 06 and practice at long range punching paper. Practice makes perfect. The 06 is a very versatile cartrige when looking at range of bullet weights, muzzle velocity etc. The long range crowd used to be all 30-06 at 1000yards. Get a loading setup and work for more accurate bullets, maybe get sims barrel deresonator.

Zak Smith
December 31, 2007, 12:19 AM
While I wouldn't necessarily choose .30-06 for LR shooting, it's a cheap affair to get some good high-BC bullets at shoot them, get the most out of the rifle that you can-- instead of building up a whole new rifle. Look at the 190gr SMK, 190gr Berger, and 210gr Berger, and shoot the one that is most accurate in your rifle.

I have a rule of thumb for long-range ballistics, based on the observation that wind drift is what causes LR misses 90%+ of the time: increase case capacity to enable shooting higher-BC bullets, not increase velocity. A difference of a couple hundred FPS shooting the same BC bullet has relatively minor effects in wind drift-- but stepping up the BC has a dramatic effect decreasing wind drift.

For example, a 6.5-284 has about 100-150 fps on a 260REM, but shooting the 140-gr-class bullets, it has within 5" drift @ 1200 yards-- that's virtually no difference, but the 6.5-284 burns more powder and has about half the barrel life. Not a good trade-off!

1200 meters
March 28, 2008, 12:51 PM
I too have been thinking of going for greater range. Thinking of a 338 Lapua. But I have been working on longer range 30-06 bullets and have found a good load with 240gr Sierra hpbts out to 1300 meters and using IMR 4065 there isn't much recoil. you should be able to increase this but may burn out the barrel faster. The 338 will certianly reach to 1600 meters but I'll never be on a range that long. 1300 is a wood line where I shoot. Plus the recoil on the 338 is substancial. Blitz

Zak Smith
March 28, 2008, 01:17 PM
I have a 338LM.. but does it pay off ballistically?

_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 250 500 750 1000 1250 1500 1750 2000 | YARDS
338LM 300SMK 0.77* 2750 > 0.00 0.24 0.51 0.80 1.12 1.48 1.87 2.30 2.76 | wind (mil)
338 250 0.675 3000 > 0.00 0.25 0.52 0.82 1.15 1.52 1.93 2.39 2.88 | wind (mil)
300WM 210 VLD 0.640 2870 > 0.00 0.28 0.59 0.93 1.31 1.74 2.22 2.75 3.30 | wind (mil)
260 0.620 2830 > 0.00 0.29 0.62 0.98 1.39 1.85 2.37 2.93 3.51 | wind (mil)
65-284 0.640 3000 > 0.00 0.26 0.55 0.87 1.23 1.63 2.08 2.57 3.11 | wind (mil)
7RM 180 VLD 0.698 2850 > 0.00 0.26 0.54 0.85 1.19 1.57 2.00 2.46 2.96 | wind (mil)
7RM 168 VLD 0.648 3000 > 0.00 0.26 0.54 0.86 1.21 1.60 2.04 2.53 3.05 | wind (mil)

338LM 300SMK 0.77* 2750 > -0.00 0.71 2.51 4.65 7.13 9.98 13.30 17.18 21.72 | drop (mil)
338 250 0.675 3000 > -0.00 0.55 2.08 3.93 6.10 8.66 11.67 15.26 19.54 | drop (mil)
300WM 210 VLD 0.640 2870 > -0.00 0.64 2.35 4.43 6.91 9.85 13.39 17.63 22.73 | drop (mil)
260 0.620 2830 > -0.00 0.67 2.45 4.63 7.23 10.35 14.13 18.69 24.18 | drop (mil)
65-284 0.640 3000 > -0.00 0.55 2.10 3.99 6.23 8.89 12.07 15.88 20.48 | drop (mil)
7RM 180 VLD 0.698 2850 > -0.00 0.64 2.35 4.39 6.79 9.59 12.90 16.80 21.43 | drop (mil)
7RM 168 VLD 0.648 3000 > -0.00 0.55 2.10 3.98 6.20 8.83 11.97 15.73 20.25 | drop (mil)

338LM 300SMK 0.77* 2750 > 2750 2515 2292 2080 1880 1691 1518 1365 1238 | velocity (fps)
338 250 0.675 3000 > 3000 2719 2454 2206 1973 1755 1557 1383 1239 | velocity (fps)
300WM 210 VLD 0.640 2870 > 2870 2582 2312 2059 1824 1607 1418 1260 1137 | velocity (fps)
260 0.620 2830 > 2830 2535 2260 2003 1765 1549 1362 1211 1100 | velocity (fps)
65-284 0.640 3000 > 3000 2704 2426 2166 1924 1698 1497 1323 1186 | velocity (fps)
7RM 180 VLD 0.698 2850 > 2850 2586 2337 2104 1885 1680 1497 1336 1206 | velocity (fps)
7RM 168 VLD 0.648 3000 > 3000 2708 2433 2176 1935 1712 1511 1337 1198 | velocity (fps)


The main advantage of the 338LM over high BC bullets in 6.5, 7mm, or .30 caliber is the terminal momentum.

USSR
March 28, 2008, 01:49 PM
...I have been working on longer range 30-06 bullets and have found a good load with 240gr Sierra hpbts out to 1300 meters and using IMR 4065...

1200 meters,

Once you move up to 190 grain or heavier bullets in the '06, you've got to use a slower powder if you want to get any velocity out of your load. Alliant's Reloader 22 is THE powder for this application.

Don

ArmedBear
March 28, 2008, 04:57 PM
Some food for thought...

The .300 goes on out to about 500-ish as effectively as the .30-06 does inside 300.

This is an example of some common beliefs about the .300 WinMag. If you look at energy and velocity, it's more like "the .300 goes on to 500 or a bit more, as effectively as the .30-06 does out to 400. But factory .30-06 with low-drag bullets will still bring down a deer at 500+ yards -- a good deal farther away than many real hunting situations will allow with sufficient accuracy. The .300 WinMag will work better with the heaviest bullets in .30 caliber than the .30-06 will, so for bigger game, it's got an edge."

But you're not shooting game anyway.

Next thought...

.45-70 Black Powder Cartridge competitors hit bullseyes at 1000 yards, in wind, with iron sights, using heavy bullets going 1300 fps at the muzzle. Granted, only the top shooters can do this reliably, but it does suggest that one can do a fair amount of long-range shooting with a well-chosen .30-06 load, and THEN decide what his next caliber will be.

The .300 WinMag is a round that was sold to the public as a way to extend one's hunting range on larger game by retaining energy farther out. Whether or not it really fulfills its marketing promises is subject to debate, but what is not debatable is that, for paper punching, you don't care about energy like you might when you're after an elk.

So, if I were you, I'd mess around with the .30-06 right now, and look around for a rifle you like in a caliber (several mentioned above) that is tailored for long-distance target shooting, not big game hunting.

As others have said, a lot of what you get from a .300 WM is recoil, expense, and noise. That might be worth it if you can bag that elusive elk in the mountains, but for paper, I'd consider something else.

ShunZu
March 28, 2008, 05:30 PM
.243 Win. (that's what I use)


+1

I have a .300 Win Sendero, and it is a tackdriver... but it sees more action in my novel than at the range. .243, if you roll your own, can also be a whole lot cheaper to shoot. Unless you're filthy rich, more shooting + more practice = better groups.

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