[Redlg155]

Fellow Shooters,

The gun show is coming up in Tallahassee on the 8th of August so I'm narrowing down my choices. So far it looks like I'm going to get a Kimber 4" model, most likely the Pro Carry series. I might even be tempted by the smaller 3" barreled carry models but low velocities from the short 3" barrels don't make me quite comfortable.

Now my concern is the durability of an alloy frame. Anyone have any idea how many rounds an alloy framed .45 will last under full powered 230gr and lighter +P loads?

I'm buying an handgun to be carried a lot and shot a lot, so I need the best of both worlds.

Good Shooting
Red

[Climb14er]

If you want to carry AND shoot a lot, go to the steel version.

If you want comfort to carry and shoot on occasion to practice w/o the +P, then get the alloy.

Lots of rounds (under 10 or so thousand) in an alloy frame is ok but it doesn't hold up like steel.

+P, I wouldn't go near an alloy frame.

[Drifting Fate]

I read once that Skeeter Skelton put 60,000 rounds through one of the original Commanders (alloy frame as opposed to the steel framed Combat Commander) when they came out.

Figure it was mil-spec hard ball, so not as fast. But, modern alloy should be a whole lot better than the 1950's aluminum that they had then.

Absolutely no ill effects were reported.

The alloy is going to "kick" more than a steel frame, but other than that I wouldn't worry about it myself.

Besides, just how many +P .45 rounds can you afford to shoot? It's usually all premium stuff and gets pricey fast.

As an aside - I would vote for the 4" barrel.

[Sean Smith]

Some things to consider about alumunum:

1. You can make an aluminum part as strong as a steel part in terms of yield strength, but you have to make it bigger to do it. Your ability to do this with a 1911 frame is limited, so it follows that the aluminum frame will be substantially weaker than a steel frame.

2. Yield vs. ultimate strength... this is where aluminum starts to seriously lag behind steel. Aluminum's yield strength is very close to its ultimate strength, while steel's ultimate strength is much higher. Put another way, if you overload a steel part, there is a wide range of applied force where it will simply deform instead of outright breaking. The aluminum part, by contrast, will be very rigid, but the point where it violently fails is only slightly higher than the point where it starts to yield. It should be clear why this is a Bad Thing.

3. Fatigue strength. This is the ability of a part to stand up to repeated loadings below where the part would yield, which is of course what happens when you shoot a gun. The fatigue strength of steel is MUCH higher than the fatigue strength of aluminum. This is why you hear of aircraft parts made of aluminum spontaneously crapping out due to "metal fatigue." By the way, Titanium has even better fatigue strength (depending on the alloy) than steel does, which is why those titanium magnum revolvers are plausible from a durability point of view.

So an aluminum frame MIGHT last for a very long time. But it is alot more prone to a spectacular failure than a steel frame, either from ultimate failure or fatigue over high round counts. Does it matter? Probably not, since most people don't shoot enough rounds to find out.

[10-Ring]

If this gun is going to be a shooter, I'd go steel. Alot of owner's manuals state that shooting +p or +P+ rounds will shorten the life the gun's frame. It only makes sense that something taking that much pounding would break easier.

[45auto]

Kimber is not bashful in their ads on aluminum frames.

I have read 20,000 rounds with no wear.

In their newest ads promoting their new line of 'tactical' type handguns, they say their aluminum is the same strength as steel.

So, I would call them and take them up on their statements and ask what is the warranty on the frames.

If you don't get the answer you want, I'd call Colt and Springfield, both of whom have lifetime warranties, and ask them what happens if the frame cracks.

It would be interesting to know.

[dsk]

I read once that Skeeter Skelton put 60,000 rounds through one of the original Commanders (alloy frame as opposed to the steel framed Combat Commander) when they came out.

Absolutely no ill effects were reported.

Actually Skeeter ran 10,000 rounds through the Commander. By the end of the test the slide had cracked from the firing pin hole down to below the extractor tunnel (it was one of the early ones with the lightened slide). The frame itself was still fine. However, many other owners have reported cracking around the frame rail/dust cover junction after many thousands of rounds, although it never impaired performance.

The bottom line is always the same. If you can afford that much ammo you can afford a new pistol if it does indeed break!

[Lone_Gunman]

Lets just say you "only" can put 10,000 round through an alloy frame.

That is about 200 boxes of ammo. Lets say you shoot dirt cheap ammo, like maybe S&B, which you can by for $7 per box.

It will take a mininum of $1400 of ammo to break your $700 (or so) gun.


Just keeping things in perspective.

Personally I trade guns often enough that I doubt I will ever hit 10,000 rounds with anything I own

[Jim Watson]

The Skeeter Skelton endurance test I remember, he fired 10,000 rounds TOTAL through a Commander and a Gold Cup, 5,000 each.
AS I RECALL, the Commander cracked the frame on both sides of the dustcover at the rail ends sometime between 4500 and 5000. (The Gold Cup kicked loose the rear sight from its cheap roll pin.) But remember, Elmer Keith said the life of a .45ACP barrel was 5000 rounds, too. Are the guns that much better these days?

Chuck Taylor says 30,000 rounds through a Commander and still running.

As said, Kimber advertises 20,000 rounds, not to failure but with no measurable changes to their aluminum frames.

Go for it. The price of a new frame or a whole new gun will be a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of ammo to wear it out.

[HSMITH]

The ALLOY frames are fine. I have one left, a Para P14 that has 19K rounds through it and the only measureable error or wear in anything is the slide stop hole is elongated by .0003". Was it like that to begine with? I really don't know, I did not even have access to the tools to find out when I bought it. I have had several alloy frames over the years and never had one single problem with at least 100K rounds combined through them. Keep in mind here boys and girls that the Beretta 92 is an alloy frame also, it has a superb track record and is used in massive numbers. You just do not hear of alloy frames breaking from anyone that actually had one or has even seen one in person. It is always "I heard" or "my buddy knows a guy" crap.

You will REALLY like an alloy frame on a carry gun, the difference in weight is huge when you pack it all day every day.

[Ky Larry]

Sounds like a good excuse to buy an alloy frame pistol and a steel frame one and find out for yourself. How many of us will ever shoot 100,000 rounds thru the same weapon? Some, but not many. I've never seen a cracked frame on any gun. Has anyone actually seen one with their own eyes? I haven't.

[Jim Watson]

I have.
It was steel; a '70 Colt GM.
It was - or is - the owner's only .45 and he was still shooting and carrying it the last time I saw him. Squares the dust cover up in a vise when it splays enough to drag in the holster.

[dsk]

You know something, folks never seem to care about the life expectacy of their car, their computer, or their cookware. If it wears out, goody! Time to upgrade!

However with guns it seems totally different. Everybody seems so worried about how long their gun is going to last. I strongly suspect the underlying mentality is that there's gonna be a gun ban by the time they need a new gun, and that this one might be the last one they'll be able to get.

Anyone else agree?

[Redlg155]

Hmmm..alloy is starting to make some good sense here.

That is a lot of rounds downrange before I have to worry about things. Strange that alloy concerns me but I never give it a second though about polymer pistols. Go figure.

I guess I'll have to save my pennies and see how things pan out for me.

Good Shooting
Red

[Drifting Fate]

RE: Skeeter's Test. (one of these days I'll figure out how to quote lines in a reply.)

Interesting, and that's what I get for relaying something I read in a gun magazine. I never found Skeeter's original test, and only had the article I read referencing it to go on.

Thanks for the straight dope, guys. :)

[Dave T]

I'm going to be a decenting voice here but my experience is not a rosey as what you are hearing. I have cracked three alloy Commander frames. The first at 2500 rounds, the second at about 5000 rounds and the last one at around 7000 rounds. Most of the shooting with all three guns was my handload duplicate of Ball ammunition. That last one probably went longer as by then I was using Shock Buffs.

An engineer friend explained that aluminum work hardens from the pounding and get brittle. Not much can be done, although the shok buff washers help. The same engineer cracked the aluminum frame on his light weight Para Ord at around 7000 rounds.

The reasons guns like the SIG and Beretta hold up better is they were designed from the start to have an alloy frame. The Colt/Browning design was originally for steel. The alloy versions is an after thought. The 1911 frame was not designed to be made in aluminum and absorbe the pounding of prolong firing.

As for polymer, I have a Glock 21 that I bought used and put something over 10,000 rounds through before I quit counting. It shows no fatigue or failure. Again, it was designed in polymer, not steel.

If you like the idea of a 1911 and want light weight and duribility, try either the STI/SVI guns or Wilson's KZ-45s. I've gone the KZ route and am very pleased.

[Kenneth Lew]

You know something, folks never seem to care about the life expectacy of their car, their computer, or their cookware. If it wears out, goody! Time to upgrade!

However with guns it seems totally different. Everybody seems so worried about how long their gun is going to last. I strongly suspect the underlying mentality is that there's gonna be a gun ban by the time they need a new gun, and that this one might be the last one they'll be able to get.

Anyone else agree?

Yes, me as I just buy more guns and stock up on spare parts.:scrutiny:

[JoeHatley]

I've only had one alloy framed 1911, and it didn't work out real well. The frame was part of a "Frankenpistol" I picked up cheap at a gun show.

A few hundered rounds later the frame broke. The areas around the cross pin that holds in the mainspring housing seperated from the rest of the frame.

I aluma-welded up the frame and religated it to a dedicated Ciener top end. Works great for .22's, but sure didn't hold up to .45's.

Joe

[Sean Smith]

As a side note, comparisons with SigSauers and Berettas aren't really relevant. Those guns were designed from the ground up with aluminum frames, and were designed to have the required strength when made of aluminum. On the other hand, the 1911 was designed for a steel frame, and its dimensions assume the gun is made of steel for adequate strength.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with getting an alloy-framed 1911. Certainly, most people don't shoot their guns enough to find out how durable they are in the long-term anyway. But if you really plan on shooting the living crap out of the gun, you are PROBABLY better off with steel (or titanium).

[MJRW]

500 rounds. I'll take it off your hands for you at roud 499 for 100$.

[BluesBear]

In 1980 I bought a used Colt Commander Lightweight. I have so far put well over 15,000 rounds through it. The frame is holding up fine.

What I have done to help take care of it is that I use a Wilson Shock-Buff and change it every 250-300 rounds or so. I also change the recoil spring every 800-1000 rounds.

But then again I also do this to my 1991-A1 steel frame pistol also.

[Fatelvis]

I just aquire a Blued, Pre-80s, LW Commander in great shape, and was concerned about the alloy frame durability also. Is it safe to say the older alloy frames are as durable as Kimber`s "20,000 round" frames? It is just a mental thing with me, but I hate the feeling that every round I put through the gun, its life is getting shorter! :uhoh:

[dairycreek]

An alloy frame from a reputable company e.g. Kimber, S & W, etc. will, with reasonable care and maintenance, provide many thousands of rounds of good performance. Don't worry, enjoy;)