LEOs, guns and mindset, part 2


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badgerw
December 24, 2007, 09:41 AM
I was chatting with a friend last night who is a local cop. I'll call him "R".

For the first time in the three years we've known each other, the conversation rolled around to guns. "R" mentioned that he never carries a gun off duty. He said he'd, "rather be a good witness."

I told him I was a CHL carrier. He asked if I actually carried. I said I did. He asked if I was carrying now. I said, "Yes". "R" was astonished. I'd been standing six feet from him for an hour in his kitchen. My only cover garment was an untucked denim work shirt.

I offered to show him my carry guns. "R's" eyes got big when I cleared my G19 and handed it over. They bugged out when I cleared and handed over my 642 with the CT grips.

By the end of the evening, "R" wanted to know if we could shoot together. His annual qualification is coming up in March and he never shoots on his own.

I'll try to set something up with him soon.

Bill

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AManCalledE
December 24, 2007, 09:53 AM
For some reason, this scares me...

A cop that doesn't shoot on his own, except for qualifications...
How prevelent is this?

hoji
December 24, 2007, 10:01 AM
For some reason, this scares me...

A cop that doesn't shoot on his own, except for qualifications...
How prevelent is this?

It should scare you as this is the norm:eek: They are like a lot of people and think that just the sight of the bat belt full of toys and presence in uniform is enough, and it usually is.

If the criminal set just realized how little continuation of training that the AVERAGE LEO engages in, you would see a spike in LEOs getting their butt kicked and gear stolen from them.

armoredman
December 24, 2007, 10:03 AM
Quite.

RoadkingLarry
December 24, 2007, 11:06 AM
If the criminal set just realized how little continuation of training that the AVERAGE LEO engages in, you would see a spike in LEOs getting their butt kicked and gear stolen from them.

They'd just pass more gun control laws on law abiding folks to keep that from happening anymore...

Wolfgang2000
December 24, 2007, 11:45 AM
First not all cops are gun people. Then you have to take into account the local dept rules. I know of Dept's that don't allow "their" guns to be shot any where but at "their" range, with their rounds.

Also unlike TV, less than 5% of LEO's will actually use their firearms in the line of duty. Then there is the mind set or hypocrisy (you choice) of the public at large. If a LEO takes their job seriously, yo hear thing like "Barny Fife", and complaints about the "militarization of the police". BUT when a LEO treats their job like a 9 to 5 job, JUST LIKE YOU DO, then they are chastised, for not living the job 24/7.

Then God forbid they do get into an actual shooting, then you are guilty till proven innocent. They will go though great legal experience just to prove they were defending their live. I won't even go into the death threats and the civil ramifications.

All this from people that are either unqualified, to cowardly, or just can't be bothered to do the job themselves.

Bottom line, you reap what you sow.

jerkface11
December 24, 2007, 11:51 AM
And all they have to do is kick in ONE wrong door and shoot ONE 90 year old woman and the whole internet is in an uproar.

weisse52
December 24, 2007, 11:53 AM
I was in the Military Police (National Guard) in the late 70's (After Navy). A vast majority of the personal where city, county, and state LEO's. I was shocked when I learned that so few where "gun people".

As has already been mentioned, it is very common even today for some (lots maybe) to use a gun as a tool. Shoot with it to qualify, but other than that, leave them alone.

I have the utmost respect for LEO. BUT, I feel they are there to take a report and try to catch the bad guy (girl) after the fact. It is up to me to protect my family and myself.

TexasRifleman
December 24, 2007, 11:54 AM
A cop that doesn't shoot on his own, except for qualifications...
How prevelent is this?

From my experience the majority of LEOs are this way.
Given the tight budgets of departments, low pay of officers in general, and the fact that using the firearm is 1 percent of their jobs it shouldn't be surprising.

Stories like the OP tells are good opportunities to show LE that guns are not just tools of the bad guy.

I have the utmost respect for LEO. BUT, I feel they are there to take a report and try to catch the bad guy (girl) after the fact. It is up to me to protect my family and myself.

The Supreme Court has said as much too so LE shouldn't take statements like that as an offense.

Joe Demko
December 24, 2007, 12:06 PM
Does this thread have the possibility of actually going anywhere or is it just another "kopz r teh dum" circlej**k?

mikec
December 24, 2007, 12:33 PM
In other professions there is what is called "continuing education". Should a department pay their officers to keep their skills up? I'm not a cop, but in my line of work I have spent my own time and money for my own continuing education. I am better for it.

As for an officer not being willing to keep current with his/her firearms skills what other skills are they not practicing or keeping current?

Maybe we should ask those officers if they have a job or profession? I bet those who say it is their profession are the ones who are the better skilled and willing to do what is needed no matter what skill we are talking about. (Check with any job, there are some who have a job and others who treat it as there career/profession.) Not bashing cops as a whole just some who take the job for the check or for their ego.

CountGlockula
December 24, 2007, 12:50 PM
It's an individual decision, which is unfortunate. We wish every cop is a gun nut.

Some cops are gun nuts and some aren't.

I work at a shooting range and there was a cadet that has been shooting there ever since she first stepped into the academy. She's full time now and her first week on the job, she had to pull out her Glock 7 times!!! She's also ranked #1 in her class in firearms.

But we do get a lot of LEO members.

I just think it's a personal decision. Remember, most of the kids that start out in the academy have only video game experience regarding firearms...so it's more of a gradual skill to learn the real thing rather than learning from Halo.

doc2rn
December 24, 2007, 01:14 PM
All this from people that are either unqualified, to cowardly, or just can't be bothered to do the job themselves.

I think you will find on here that some are
1) More qualified with their weapon systems
2) Have more backbone/ will run to the fight
3) Want to do it the right way the first time and be done with rapist, child molesters by putting the hard back in "Hard Time". No early release, three squares a day, and weight rooms. Let them live in tents behind wire in the desert and live just as well as the military.
4) Wish that everyone would take their 2A rights seriously
5) Be their brothers keeper so we would not need police

Wolfgang2000
December 24, 2007, 02:11 PM
Jerkface, You're right. It shouldn't happen, but it does. I've noticed it happens a lot more on the Internet than it ever does in real life. Might want to compare it to the amount of people that die form Doctors mistakes, you will see the percentage is minuscule.

Doc2m, I'm sure there are good people here. But there are police-phobias here also. The bottom line here is that citizens DON'T HAVE TO,
Run to the fire.
Be their brother keeper.
Qualify yearly.
Or use that backbone.

A couple of facts that are seldom discussed.

The laws, methods of operations, firearms and training, and hirings, are decisions made by the politicians that YOU THE PEOPLE have elected. Your problems start there.

Your police come from the society that they police. If you have a corrupt society, you will have a corrupt PD. No not all of them, but enough to give a Dept. a bad reputation.

I know I should ignore the police-phobias, but it does get real old after a while.

elrod
December 24, 2007, 02:37 PM
Wolfgang2000
If you have a corrupt society, you will have a corrupt PD.

Never thought of it like that, but you're right on! That would explain places like NO, and the things that go (went) on after the hurricane. Or the sordid state of affairs in Mexico. The next logical step is to recognize that the police are but an extension of the governing body.......but this isn't L&P...........:banghead:

CountGlockula
December 24, 2007, 02:42 PM
+1 on Wolfgang2000's comment!

TexasSkyhawk
December 24, 2007, 02:43 PM
For some reason, this scares me...

A cop that doesn't shoot on his own, except for qualifications...
How prevelent is this?

Damned prevelent.

Jeff

CombatArmsUSAF
December 24, 2007, 02:53 PM
Just as I believe the CCWer should practice on a regular basis, I think that LEOs should practice on a regular basis. Gripes about departmental funding and the like, are just excuses. Most ranges I have been to offer pretty decent LEO discounts on everything from guns, to range time, to ammo.

Bottom line - If you are carrying a firearm, whether for personal or professional purposes, it is your RESPONSIBILITY to ensure that you are capable of actually using it if needs be. The reason being, there will almost always be bystanders around. Nobody needs to get shot on accident.

Merry Christmas!!!!

Baba Louie
December 24, 2007, 03:22 PM
By the end of the evening, "R" wanted to know if we could shoot together. His annual qualification is coming up in March and he never shoots on his own.

I'll try to set something up with him soon.
EXCELLENT!!! Have fun shooting. Learn from him about reading body language to see things that JDLR (like a CCW standing next to you). The LEO's I know are amazing with their street sense of spotting something immediately that "just doesn't look right".

I find it amazing that some pick out negatives, perceived or real, from the OP when all I saw was a chance to go shooting with a good and trusted friend. I bet not all Cops can field strip their radios either. Tho' there's probably one or two in a crowd who can and do. :D

AKCOP
December 24, 2007, 04:55 PM
I worked with those that shot a bunch and some who had to pluck dander out from their holster. I also worked with a few who were a bit over the edge when it came to guns. I was fortunate to always work with others who liked to shoot. I worked for departments that qualified once a year and was fortunate to be in charge and require it four times a year, with one course with duty ammo and once at night. I also encouraged officer participation in CCW classes as instructors and shooting at public events. Our department sponsored bowling pin shoots and always had a few mixed teams with officers and private citizens.
When it came to hiring I never looked to avid shooters alone. I looked first to a person who had their head screwed on right. Figured I could always teach them to shoot but could not teach them commen sense. If they qualified when the time came but never shot another round I didn't have a problem with that either.

hoji
December 24, 2007, 05:34 PM
First not all cops are gun people. Then you have to take into account the local dept rules. I know of Dept's that don't allow "their" guns to be shot any where but at "their" range, with their rounds.

Well, if you are going to walk around in public with a gun on your hip, you damned well should be{at least to the extent that your likelyhood of hitting innocent bystanders is at a minimum.}
I know secutity officers who make FAR less $$$ than the lowest paid LEO and they still find time to shoot once a month.

Also unlike TV, less than 5% of LEO's will actually use their firearms in the line of duty. Then there is the mind set or hypocrisy (you choice) of the public at large. If a LEO takes their job seriously, yo hear thing like "Barny Fife", and complaints about the "militarization of the police". BUT when a LEO treats their job like a 9 to 5 job, JUST LIKE YOU DO, then they are chastised, for not living the job 24/7.

I do not expect them to be jack booted half-wits but I do expect them to be as proficient with the tools of their trade as the guy I hire to fix my house is with his tools.
If your job requires you to carry a firearm, you need to be an expert with it .PERIOD.

Then God forbid they do get into an actual shooting, then you are guilty till proven innocent. They will go though great legal experience just to prove they were defending their live. I won't even go into the death threats and the civil ramifications.

JUST LIKE A CITIZEN WOULD IN THE SAME SITUATION:cuss:
Nuff said on that.
All this from people that are either unqualified, to cowardly, or just can't be bothered to do the job themselves.

Or made better decisions with what they wanted out of life.{Or for whatever reason, chose a life of not wrestling with crackheads, and being a social worker}

Bottom line, you reap what you sow

Yup

Mtnvalley
December 24, 2007, 06:00 PM
Sadly, it's the norm, at least around here.

Training budgets are thin; most officers (non-SRT) of one area agency only get one box of practice ammo a quarter, and either can't or won't buy much (if any) to practice with on their own. The quarterly qualification course of fire is what many regular shooters would consider easy, but some LEOs still struggle. (They shoot their qual at an indoor range I use, so I've seen them en masse a few times. Very few faces are familiar as range regulars.)

I've taken independent classes along with the sheriff dept.'s chief instructor. He has to pay for classes out of his own pocket, to gain skills to pass along to his LEOs. He teaches monthly CCW classes largely for the funds to support his own training. I've also taken classes with the head trainer for an area city dept.--has to pay for his own training as well, but he's single and loves to shoot anyway.

I guess it's an improvement for them over the way things used to be around here: a friend who was a deputy in the mid-80's tells me that they had to buy their own "everything"....gun, ammo, bat-belt, stick...everything, out of a barely livable wage. Now their gear (including BA) is issued instead of prescribed. Still, it's kinda sad.

Not quite as sad, but sad nonetheless: the fact that the general public equates "cop" with "firearms expert". Some are, but I daresay most aren't...at least around here.

hoji
December 24, 2007, 06:31 PM
Not quite as sad, but sad nonetheless: the fact that the general public equates "cop" with "firearms expert". Some are, but I daresay most aren't...at least around here.


I never said I equated LEO with firearms expert. what I said is:If your job requires you to carry a firearm, you need to be an expert with it .PERIOD.

I stand by it.

Wolfgang2000
December 24, 2007, 07:55 PM
I said what I had to say. Some people read and understood. Some didn't. I'll not argue with a police-aphobic. Simply because when a bucket is full, you will never be able to put another drop in it. No matter how hard you try.


I hope everybody has a Merry Christmas, and God Bless. :D:D

thexrayboy
December 24, 2007, 08:18 PM
LEO are people, just like all others in many respects. Many are in it only for the paycheck and will do only what is required to get and keep the job.
Others look at it as a career or profession and will undertake training and practice beyond what is required to keep the job.

This practice applies not only to the use of firearms but the knowledge of the law, tactics, social interactions and all other aspects of their jobs.

An officer who is too lazy or ambivalent to do more than the minimum on the range is likely to be too lazey to have even a vague understanding of the legal system beyond that which he is shown by his trainers.

An officer that will take the time to be extra proficient on the range at the expense of their own time and money is more likely to make the effort to be
more than minimally proficient in other areas.

Just like janitors, nurses and any other job. Some will try hard, others will just try to get by.

Zach S
December 24, 2007, 08:45 PM
All this from people that are either unqualified, to cowardly, or just can't be bothered to do the job themselves.
There's some of the "us vs them" attitude I've heard a few cops bitch about us civilians having.

worthirt_99
December 24, 2007, 08:54 PM
Just like janitors, nurses and any other job. Some will try hard, others will just try to get by.+1

Monsieur Genoux
December 25, 2007, 01:02 AM
Your police come from the society that they police. If you have a corrupt society, you will have a corrupt PD.

"The lights are growing dim, Otto. I know a career of corruption and heavy-handedness has led me to this sorry fate...and yet, I blame society. Society made me what I am."

CombatArmsUSAF
December 25, 2007, 02:18 AM
WOLFGANG - You need to chill out dude. Nobody was banging on our boys in blue.

Last time I checked the OP was discussing the inadequacies of training for our police officers.

Do I think that LEO's should have to pay and train on their own time? Heck no.

If their dept doesn't supply the funds and equipment? Yes they should!!

As I said earlier in the thread, If you carry a firearm, whether it be for personal or professional purposes, you have a responsibility to ensure that you are proficient with that tool.

All this from people that are either unqualified, to cowardly, or just can't be bothered to do the job themselves.

Comments like this are completely out of line. They serve no real purpose and add fuel to the fire. I am in the United States Military, so how does that make me unqualified or cowardly? I know that the comment wasn't made directly at me, but the context of it points towards all members who aren't LEOs.

TexasSkyhawk
December 25, 2007, 02:40 AM
First not all cops are gun people. Then you have to take into account the local dept rules. I know of Dept's that don't allow "their" guns to be shot any where but at "their" range, with their rounds.

Definitely a small minority of departments that prohibit their personnel from shooting their duty weapons anywhere but the department range.

Then there is the mind set or hypocrisy (you choice) of the public at large. If a LEO takes their job seriously, yo hear thing like "Barny Fife", and complaints about the "militarization of the police". BUT when a LEO treats their job like a 9 to 5 job, JUST LIKE YOU DO, then they are chastised, for not living the job 24/7.

Problem I have with the militarization of the police is that in most instances, it is not only not needed, but way detrimental to the overall image of law enforcement in general.

I live in a quiet suburb that has never had a hostage situation, never had a gunman running loose, where murders average maybe one every three to five years, etc.

Yet we have a freaking SWAT team.

They're not low-key about it at all. The SWAT youngsters make it a point to wear their tactical BDUs and tactical thigh-holsters and other military-style hardware any and every chance they get in public. Buzzcuts and tattoos and t-shirts with all the cute "gun show wannabe" slogans on them.

And in spite of all that, they're some of the worst shots I've ever seen.

That is where negative public perception comes in.

When is the last time you saw a group of firemen looking like that? And I'll submit to you that a firefighter's job is far more dangerous than a cop's job.

Is it no wonder that the public's overall perception of firemen is significantly higher than it is for policemen?

Then God forbid they do get into an actual shooting, then you are guilty till proven innocent. They will go though great legal experience just to prove they were defending their live. I won't even go into the death threats and the civil ramifications.

First, they are on administrative duty or leave. Second, if it's a clean or good shoot, that's the end of that. No civil ramifications or legal crapola--the department/municipality handles that.

If it's a bad shoot, then you have problems. As you damn well should.

All this from people that are either unqualified, to cowardly, or just can't be bothered to do the job themselves.

I carried a gun and a badge with an eagle on it for over a dozen years. And it was during that time that I formed the opinions regarding many cops that I have today.

What department/agency are you/were you with?

Jeff

Treo
December 25, 2007, 03:15 AM
I was thinking the whole time I was reading this thread I had to pay 100% of the cost of my gun, I have to pay 100% of the cost of my range fees & 100% of the cost of my amuntion. & I still manage to fire at least 50 rounds every week W/ my primary carry weapon I feel that if I'm going to carry a weapon I had damn well better be profiecent at its use, and I am 100 times less likely than a cop to ever have to actually use it. So tell me why this should be considered such an insurrmountable burden to a cop?
BTW 14 years in the military & now I work with youth offenders I'm not a coward just because I'm not a cop

Pevey
December 25, 2007, 06:13 AM
You have to remember that cops do lots of jobs. Some are very good at other parts of it besides slinging a sidearm. LE Officers use a computer more than a gun, some have researching skills, some have communication skills, ect. Just because someone doesn't sleep with his gun doesn't make him a bad cop or a bad person. He is probably very good at other stuff he does more of.

As for my flavor of feds, we qual quarterly. Shooting once a year for the other guy does seem weak but it's their department. Before Homeland Security we would get a couple of boxes of extra rounds to practice on our own time every quarter and the personal stocks built up quick. Now, if I tell my firearms instructor I need extra to practice, I can get a few hundred rounds but I have to ask for it. I would say about 10 to 25% of the people here like to go out on their own to shoot and would be considered a gun nut.

Most in my business didn't sign on to shoot. Knowing how is just part of it like it or not. Some of the other parts are just as fun.

CombatArmsUSAF
December 25, 2007, 06:29 AM
PEVEY- I agree with you completely. Some are very good at other things, and I commend them for that. But their lives and the lives of innocent bystanders don't depend on their "research" skills.

I don't think anyone here sees it as a requirement for our LEO's to be all out gun nuts, but I think I speak for the whole of the forum and society when I say that they should at least be proficient

Pevey
December 25, 2007, 07:37 AM
Thanks for seeing a few of the things I was trying to point out. As for the proficiency, that's why we qualify. Four hours a quarter. Used to be eight but don't get me started on that. The instructors look for problems like looking over the sight, jerking the trigger, flinching, ect.. and work hard to improve the scores. Our course has gotten a little easier but it's still timed with turning targets, left and right one handed shooting, ect. There are no gimme's, the boss shoots with the troops and everyone can count the holes.

I can only answer for where I work but everyone here is proficient. When you spend as much time shooting at the academy as we do, it doesn't take much to stay sharp when you get home.

I agree some officers may not meet that standard but I would like to think they are the exception and not the rule. With the thousands of departments in the US, how would you go about checking everyone? You gotta have a little faith or the world is a cold and dark place.

U.S.SFC_RET
December 25, 2007, 08:55 AM
I have nothing but honor and respect for the LEO. Regardless the makeup. They represent the thin blue line between civilization and anarchy in many of our societies, some more than others. Low Pay and long, long hours. It takes a special calling. You have the vermin amongst them but they are few. Stop and thank one or two every once in a while for the thankless job that they do. Pressed from the top and hated by the public they entangle, it's a very stressful life and like a odometer is catches up. They need your thanks and recognition. Buy their lunch every once in a blue moon and pay them back for the service that they provide. God bless them.

Mousegun
December 25, 2007, 09:00 AM
Before retirement and moving to America, I lived in PR of New Jersey. I actually belonged to a wonderful pistol club and did a lot of shooting while there. This was actually a police range that I had a large part in the maintenance thereof.

I honored and respected the police I was involved with but I knew I had a lot of maintenance work to do after qualification sessions. There was a lot of stuff shot up that wasn't supposed to be.

I told a LEO friend that I couldn't understand why more time wasn't spent practicing one of the main things that could keep him alive and save other lives. I told him in my profession, safety equipment like gloves, face masks, proper clothing etc. kept me from harm and his vest, combat skills and firearm ability were among the things that kept him going and the only way to achieve proficiency was to practice, practice, practice.

Generally the response was to the tune of we don't really expect to ever need exceptional skills with a firearm. This sounded so much like responses I get from antis that say, "what are the chances it would ever happen to me"?

Even if expenses come from their own pocket, the job itself puts them in harms way more often than most other jobs ever do. How about a higher degree of responsibility to themselves, their family, and the public for which they serve. A few trips to the range on their own would be a positive event for everyone. My expenses come from my own pocket also and I get there two or three times a month (in PRNJ it was every week -- ironic huh?) because I feel the responsibility of carrying a weapon falls on me and my skills that have to be kept sharp.

This in no way diminishes my respect for the police, but I sometimes cringe when antis flog the term, "trained professionals" and demand that only they should be allowed to carry or even have firearms. I always say that a professional is someone who gets PAID doing a job it is not a word that means expert. That went for my profession also and in order to be proficient in it, I had to constantly keep up to date.

buck00
December 25, 2007, 09:55 AM
First not all cops are gun people.

Bingo. One common perspective I find is people assume anyone who is an LEO or in the military has a deep knowledge of firearms and shooting.

This isn't true. To most of us, firearms are a hobby, passion, or obsession. To LEOs and military they are simply a tool (not the main focus). I remember watching Dallas Swat once, where they raided a drug house. They found an AK clone rifle, and the officer holds it up and sneers "this is an SKS assault rifle... the most feared weapon on the streets!" And I couldn't believe how ignorant this guy was, but then I realized just because he is SWAT/LEO doesn't mean he knows much about guns. :rolleyes:

Aguila Blanca
December 25, 2007, 09:55 AM
I shoot at a small indoor range. Two people work there, the owner and one part-time helper. Both are always armed. They have a few rental guns there, and a few other firearms on consignment by a friend who has an FFL.

I also do transfers through a gun shop near home. It's owned by two former LEOs (one retired, the other stopped LEOing and became a building contractor before he made it to 20 years). Neither one carries, in the shop or anywhere. Neither one seems to shoot much. The retired LEO says he never shot a handgun except for his annual requalification, and since he retired he has never fired a handgun. He's into shotguns, and he takes one deer per season.

A bad guy would have easy picking in their shop, and could come away with some very nice (and useful) hardware.

Just shows to go ya -- many LEOs are not "gun guys."

Wolfgang2000
December 25, 2007, 11:30 AM
I'm glad that my comments have provoked a good discussion. Just some points to clear up.

I never said that LEO's shouldn't be proficient with their weapons. I was pointing out that some Dept's make it really hard. It's a lot more than you think, and it getting worst every year.

AS far as my comments about some people qualifications, It's directed to those Internet commandos that won't go next door to tell the neighbors to turn down the music, but they are going direct police operations. :scrutiny:
To the rest of you, don't sweat the small stuff.

Militarization of the Police.

This is the most overblown false fear I hear on the Internet. First ALL police Dept's. are and have always been para-military organizations. If you are talking about special units such as, SWAT, SRT, HRT, TAC, etc., I'm afraid they are a necessity these days, in MOST cities.

I know some small towns don't NEED a special unit. But since 9/11 the Feds have been shoveling big buck at Dept's. to get these teams up and running.

Is there a need? If you do a search you will see the 3 entry teams (5 to 7 people) have been wiped out since 2001.

There is a lot more to it. Such as training requirement for accreditation and such. To be honest I don't feel like typing it all out. The quick version is, the more lawyers and bureaucrats get involved, the worst it gets.

weisse52
December 25, 2007, 12:14 PM
Wolfgang2000


I'm glad that my comments have provoked a good discussion. Just some points to clear up.


OK, then clear this one up.


All this from people that are either unqualified, to cowardly, or just can't be bothered to do the job themselves.


Comments like this do NOTHING but inflame.

AS far as my comments about some people qualifications, It's directed to those Internet commandos that won't go next door to tell the neighbors to turn down the music, but they are going direct police operations.
To the rest of you, don't sweat the small stuff.

Looks more like damage control. I "feel" your first comments reflect your feels on the vast majority of people in general. I respect LEO. I respect the military.

I will admit that on the Internet we are all 6' 4, 220 pounds and nerves of steel. Deadly with both handguns and longguns as well.

I agree with a lot of what you say, but this does help keep the "us vs them" thing going strong.

Merry Christmas to all!

CombatArmsUSAF
December 25, 2007, 12:29 PM
WOLFGANG - I feel your pain. My Dad is the training officer for the dept back home. Just 2 months ago I was at home checking out the department's range and doing a little shooting of my own. The have a big time ventilation problem and with just me and my dad in there shooting it got really bad. They are trying to get OSHA to come in and inspect the environmental conditions, so OSHA will shut it down.Because then it will be easier to get funding for the necessary equipment to make the range shooter friendly.

Luckily, the Chief and the Mayor are "police friendly" and don't skimp on training dollars. So when they do get a functional range up and running the guys will be able to train like they should.

ArfinGreebly
December 25, 2007, 01:34 PM
"The lights are growing dim, Otto. I know a career of corruption and heavy-handedness has led me to this sorry fate...and yet, I blame society. Society made me what I am."
"You're going to be all right man."

. . .

"Maybe not."

It ain't Shakespeare, but it do have a point.

hoji
December 25, 2007, 01:46 PM
Quote:
"The lights are growing dim, Otto. I know a career of corruption and heavy-handedness has led me to this sorry fate...and yet, I blame society. Society made me what I am."

"You're going to be all right man."

. . .

"Maybe not."

It ain't Shakespeare, but it do have a point.

Never would have guessed you for a Repo Man fan.

Quote: But what about our relationship? F#@k that.

The Deer Hunter
December 25, 2007, 01:49 PM
How prevelent is this?

From what I hear most of the local boys only shoot before qualification each year.

inkhead
December 25, 2007, 09:30 PM
I'd say in middle america cops are more likely to be military or "gun people". In large cities cops are many times just people.

The only thing that really bothers me lately about this is "fear". Police aren't getting enough training. You have cops tasering the hell out of suspects rather than interacting or tackling an apparently unarmed person. It seems in most cases it's somebody who doesn't has been properly trained. You don't have to carry to be trained, but you should feel comfortable enough to. And I think there are a generation of LEOs that aren't familiar enough with their weapons.

sig226
December 25, 2007, 09:48 PM
Bill, your answer depends on where you are and the mindset of the departments there. I was hanging around with a friend of mine who is on a tac team one evening this summer. We watched a sheriff's patrol boat driving up a canal and the conversation turned to an officer killed in Dade County that day. They thought the killer might be heading north, through our county. "Anybody packing?" my friend asked.

Police officers have a lot to do besides shooting guns. Many cops will never draw their sidearm in anger in a long career. Of the ones who do, most of these won't fire it. They have tons of other stuff to do. They have to learn the laws and procedures. They have to be good drivers. They have to know what to do in case of fires, accidents, and deaths. They have to be able to communicate what they saw so that their testimony will be valid in court. They have to know evidence and custody procedures. They have to know what to do in the event of a declared emergency.

Some agencies emphasize firearms skills on top of all of this, but it costs money to provide ammunition and other needed supplies, and the guys want to get paid for something they are forced to do for their job. Some bosses don't emphasize shooting because most of what their officers do does not involve shooting people.

And it is a job. At the end of the day, most cops want nothing to do with police work. Some carry guns off duty because they can, others carry nothing more than a badge because when their shift ends, they want peace and quiet. How many of us want to go home, go out with our families, and then have to go to work?

Wolfgang2000
December 26, 2007, 01:47 AM
Weisse52, A lot is said about LEO's here and on other forum are meant to inflame. Nobody seems to care, except the LEO's. Yet I read a lot for Internet commandos on how LEO's "should" handle something. But nobody cares if that makes the LEO feel like the THEY are making it a them or us thing.

The fact remains the reality trumps opinion every time. The problem is getting getting some people to face reality. The fact remains the there are people that are either unqualified, afraid, or just can't be bothered with shouldering the responsibility for public service. OK that is fine, their choice. But how or earth could they logically try to tell someone else how to do that job?

It always amused me at the people that that won't go tell the neighbor to turn down the music, will freely tell others what THEY should sacrifice, or how brave THEY should be. :scrutiny:

I'm sorry if you found my statement "inflaming". The fact remains that the reason MOST people don't put on the badge falls into one of those 3 categories. Not flaming, just facts. So if the shoe fits, wear it. If it doesn't, pass it on.

During my life's experiences I've noticed that there are some erroneous assumptions a lot of people make.
If they can field strip a firearm, they are a gunsmith.
If they have a point and shoot camera, they are a photographer.
If they passed the CCW class they now know what it's like to a professional LEO.

This is my opinion. I fully understand that opinions are like arm pits. Everybody has a couple and they usually stink. :D:D

worthirt_99
December 26, 2007, 03:33 AM
It always amused me at the people that that won't go tell the neighbor to turn down the music, will freely tell others what THEY should sacrifice, or how brave THEY should be. Hey, that sounds like my Ex-Wife!

I love the work that LEOs do, yes some are gun people, some aren't. I might be totally wrong here, but gun profiecent they may not have to be due to the area/department funding and so forth. Example, in one area a LEO may never have to use his sidearm, but does he use a tazer or an asp alot? To me he should be more profiecent on the use of those then on the use of his gun. Should he know how to use a gun, yes, as a just in case. That is what the qualification is for, no matter what the time length. What what I have seen, even the military operates that way. If your job (mine for example) does not require handeling a gun, then we get the minimum training on it. Are we profiecent, probaly not, can we use it if nessary? That is what we qualify for.

Dr. Dickie
December 26, 2007, 08:01 AM
Weisse52, A lot is said about LEO's here and on other forum are meant to inflame. Nobody seems to care, except the LEO's. Yet I read a lot for Internet commandos on how LEO's "should" handle something. But nobody cares if that makes the LEO feel like the THEY are making it a them or us thing.

The fact remains the reality trumps opinion every time. The problem is getting getting some people to face reality. The fact remains the there are people that are either unqualified, afraid, or just can't be bothered with shouldering the responsibility for public service. OK that is fine, their choice. But how or earth could they logically try to tell someone else how to do that job?

It always amused me at the people that that won't go tell the neighbor to turn down the music, will freely tell others what THEY should sacrifice, or how brave THEY should be.

One thing that I think should be made clearer and is often unarticulated, is the difference between LEO's and department policy.
I have nothing but respect for most LEO's--there are always a-holes in any business, and generally EVERY business gets judged by the a-holes (that is human nature).
I have a major problem with changes in police department polices over the years (the addition of SWAT to even small towns and the use of SWAT for just about any raid).
However, I think the biggest problem that most people have is not the enforcement of rules, or the officers that enforce the rule (though that may be how it is worded in the statements made) but the shear number and types of rules we are being forced to live under.
A police state is not when there is a ridged and heavy handed enforcement of the rules.
A police state is when EVERYTHING in your life is regulated and there is a rigid and heavy handed enforcement of the rules.
Since (as far as I can see) must gun folks are very pro-enforcement of the rules, and are sticklers for rules, the slow creep of the Fed, State, and local government into our lives is frightening. Think! What in your life is not touched by Federal regulations?
So, while I would agree with you that too often you see cop bashing, if you read what those people are writing, very often you will see that they are really bashing the excessive rules from faceless bureaucracies that are trying to control our lives. In frustration, they lash out at the "face" that enforces those rules, rather than the rules themselves.
Truly, I believe, if we had a set of honest and appropriate laws (instead of the massive micro-life controlling set we currently have), you would find that "gun people"would be the police's most valuable and vocal ally.

The fact remains the there are people that are either unqualified, afraid, or just can't be bothered with shouldering the responsibility for public service.
It always amused me at the people that that won't go tell the neighbor to turn down the music, will freely tell others what THEY should sacrifice, or how brave THEY should be.

If I was to judge you by those statement alone, I would say you might want to consider a different line of work. Sure there are some people like that. There are also LEOs that are first class pr$%ks. So what? Most are not.
If you think most of us are scared, cowering, sheep that need a big bad LEO to come to our rescue, then you need to step back for a moment. The public has been trained and conditioned to let the police handle it, and they were trained and conditioned BY THE POLICE to do that.
With the society we live it, and all those damn rules I just mentioned, not letting the police handle it is a good way to get yourself arrested. So, we let the police handle it (as the law says we should) and you look down on us a sheep, cowards, unworthy of your great stature in society as our hero in shining armor.:what: Pretty neat scenario: Arrest us if we do it ourselves, dismiss us as unworthy if we do what we are supposed to do. IF I WAS TO JUDGE you by those statements. From reading what you have written, I think that would be un-fair. I don't think you really think that way. But it sure looks like people bashing to me:D

We who love freedom, are fighting back at the excessive regulations we are being forced to live under. We SHOULD make it a whole lot clearer that it is not the folks who are out there trying to enforce the rules, but the rules themselves we are fighting back against. But with the way things are set today, frustration runs high. Try to see that often the vitriolic words are not meant at the individual LEO, but the enforcement of unjust, un-American rules that are being imposed upon us.
NOTE: I am not suggesting, nor implying that LEOs should only enforce the rules they feel are right or wrong. The job is enforce the rules, that is what you do. We need to change (lessen) the rules. But try to see that most times it is the rules, not the individuals that people are venting about.
At least that is how I see things.
Stay safe Wolfgang2000, just the fact that you are here on the THR means that you are one of 'the good guys":neener:

At least that is how I see things.
I am growing more and more uneasy by the growing rift between LE and us who are very "by the rules" kinda people. I truly hope that that rift does not get to wide.

Wynder
December 26, 2007, 08:36 AM
I suppose we all need to take a look at the other side as well, as a 'trained professional' a LEO also needs to have a fairly extensive understanding of the law. So, I guess the question, I would pose is... would you rather see a police officer have an in-depth understanding of the law, the Constitution and your rights or be a good shot?

Granted, both would be optimal, but considering an officer might need to draw his service weapon only a few times a year, but deals with Fourth Amendment issues a few times a week, I think it might put this conversation into a different perspective.

That being said, from a bulk of the stories that are publicized in the media, it doesn't always sound like their free time is spent mastering the scholarly aspects of the job, either.

PawPaw
December 26, 2007, 09:41 AM
Good morning, everyone. This is my first post on THR.

Quote from Dr. Dickie: We who love freedom, are fighting back at the excessive regulations we are being forced to live under. We SHOULD make it a whole lot clearer that it is not the folks who are out there trying to enforce the rules, but the rules themselves we are fighting back against. But with the way things are set today, frustration runs high. Try to see that often the vitriolic words are not meant at the individual LEO, but the enforcement of unjust, un-American rules that are being imposed upon us.
NOTE: I am not suggesting, nor implying that LEOs should only enforce the rules they feel are right or wrong. The job is enforce the rules, that is what you do. We need to change (lessen) the rules. But try to see that most times it is the rules, not the individuals that people are venting about.
At least that is how I see things.

Well said, sir. As a 27 year police veteran I understand your frustration completely. I feel it too. There are a whole lot of laws out there to enforce, and many times they are not enforced in a manner that makes much sense. I'm of the considered opinion that the citizens of the US had most of the laws they needed when the Republic was formed. Yet we pay legislators to write more laws. War on Terror, War on Drugs, War on Poverty, we're always at war against something, and the legislators pass laws to support those wars. Its complete and utter nonsense, most of the time.

We'd be a whole lot better off if we'd convene a Congress with the stated goal of repealing a whole bunch of laws that are already on the books. If you don't like the laws you live under, don't blame the police. Blame your legislature. Write letters. Raise hell. Go to Town meetings. March in the streets if necessary. Be a citizen.

Oh, and to address the common idea of the thread. Unfortunately, most LEO's aren't gun people. It's a tool just like a hammer is to a carpenter. In any town you have carpenters who are good with hand tools and others who aren't so good with hand tools. Some carpenters would rather use hand tools, some wouldn't. Some carpenters do woodworking in their time off, some don't. Some carpenters are fine, upstanding individuals. Some aren't.

Making generalizations about LEOs is like making generalizations about building contractors.

weisse52
December 26, 2007, 09:51 AM
After reading some of the last posts I sit down and wrote a "War and Peace" epic in response. Then when I finally get back my connections had dropped and I had to log back in. When I did I read the response by PawPaw and decided to make one more statement instead.

Making generalizations about LEOs is like making generalizations about building contractors.


The same is true for non LEO as well. We all make decisions about our life for a variety of reasons that cannot be defined under someone's "3 simple reasons" approach.

And a Happy New Year!

Deanimator
December 26, 2007, 10:20 AM
So, I guess the question, I would pose is... would you rather see a police officer have an in-depth understanding of the law, the Constitution and your rights or be a good shot?
Unfortunately, in all too many cases, the police are neither good shots nor well versed (or respecting of) in the law.

Recent history in Chicago for example shows them not knowing (or caring) about the 4th and 5th Amendments and negligently (or maliciously) using their firearms. And it's cost the taxpayers an astonishing amount of money. I saw the total for the past few years the other day and it was breathtaking. Just two weeks ago, the family of an unarmed man shot by police won a $12 million judgement against the city.

In addition to money costs, such behavior compromises criminal cases. A number of prosecutions were thrown out after police lied about a probable cause event in front of a bar, then performed warrantless searches inside the bar. And all of that will lead to further lawsuits.

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