The "Best Place on Earth" for gun owners?


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Matt304
December 27, 2007, 10:50 PM
Just a question of curiosity...

Where is the best place on Earth for a gun owner to live?

By that, I mean a place that allows accessibility to all types of firearms, full-auto, SBR, silenced, easy importations etc. This place would preferably have those firearms available at comparable prices to ours, if not better, and permit you to acquire any desirable model that you could also acquire easily in the US.

Does such a place exist in the world?

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Jimmie
December 27, 2007, 10:53 PM
Anywhere if you're a criminal. If you're law abiding, I think you'll be hard pressed to beat the US unless you start your own island nation.

neby98
December 27, 2007, 11:41 PM
Lawless parts of the world perhaps?

General Geoff
December 28, 2007, 12:07 AM
Private Island

Macpherson
December 28, 2007, 12:12 AM
The more corrupt or lawless parts of Africa or South America possibly. If you have the favor of whatever de facto government is in power you could get your hands on whatever that government has access to, and do with it as you please, although theoretically the same is true in America, it's just a matter of how deep your pockets are.

DoubleTapDrew
December 28, 2007, 12:46 AM
Sealand?
Anybody who doesn't abide by the law can get about anything they want if they've got the connections and cash.
The USA in the late 1700's was probably like that. I don't think you had to go through a ton of paperwork, ask permission from the gov't, and mortgage your house to buy a cannon, or any other arms that were available.

georgeduz
December 28, 2007, 12:56 AM
check out the swiss,you can even own a tank.

Limeyfellow
December 28, 2007, 12:59 AM
Pakistan is fairly good for gunrights too in the tribal regions.

cbsbyte
December 28, 2007, 01:50 AM
check out the swiss,you can even own a tank.

Ah no... the swiss have very strict gun laws. I don't understand why people believe it is some type of gun owners utopia. The laws are much stricter than in any place in the US. US gunowners would be calling for armed rebellion if they had to go through half of what Swiss gunowners have to do to get a license to own a gun outside of a military issue weapon. Granted once you get pass all the flaming hoops the Government makes you jump through, one can own almost any type of firearm as long as it was made in Swizterland. Also I am not sure about the tank, do you have a source of that information? Heck in the US you can own a tank, as long as the gun is deactivated. Actually In Canada a person can own live artilery, and tanks.

I would say the best place in the world would be in a country where it is easy to obtain illegal weapons without ramifications for pretty cheap. Maybe in the Middle east, Afganistan, countries in Africa. The choices might be limted to old Soviet made stuff but you could probably buy a T62 tank with a life time full of shells for about the same price as a down payment for a nice European car with options in the US.

Dan Forrester
December 28, 2007, 06:24 AM
You can own live artillery, tanks, grenade launchers or whatever you want in the USA for a reasonable price. The only exception to this is machineguns. For some odd reason our elected officials decided to price this class of weapons out of our hands.

Switzerland seems like a terrible place for gun ownership. France, New Zealand, and the Scandinavian countries seem like the best. I think Norway has the highest civilian firearm ownership in the world.

Dan

jrfoxx
December 28, 2007, 09:47 AM
Private Island
Yup, thats what I was thiking too.I beleive theres an old oil platform off the coast of England in international waters that is legally its own country.That would work for me.It was for sale not all that long ago, too.
Edit:here it is....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand

highorder
December 28, 2007, 09:58 AM
The more corrupt or lawless parts of Africa or South America possibly

that was my first thought. places that have arms bazaars like we have farmers markets.

frankie_the_yankee
December 28, 2007, 10:03 AM
France, New Zealand, and the Scandinavian countries seem like the best. I think Norway has the highest civilian firearm ownership in the world.

Can you compare and contrast the gun laws of these countries with those of the best areas of the USA? I'm thinking the laws on concealed carry, registration, owner licensing, etc. are much stricter in the countries you mentioned than almost anywhere here, and certainly more strict than a place like VT, AK or even TX.

And what about the laws relating to self defense?

The Deer Hunter
December 28, 2007, 10:47 AM
New Hampshire and Vermont are pretty good for around these parts. In NH no FID is needed to buy a long gun or whatever, not sure about CCW though. I'm pretty sure in VT you don't need either and you can open carry.

armoredman
December 28, 2007, 11:11 AM
Well, Alaska and Vermont are the most relaxed laws I know of, but Vermont doesn't allow suppressors. AZ allows anything on the National Registry, and allows it to be carried, on the non-weapon specific Shall-Issue CCW permit, as well. We have open carry with out permit, no registration, no licensing, no waiting period,(other than the 15 minute phone call for Brady, unless you have a CCW, then it's about 5 minutes for paperwork), no FOID, no purchase frequency restriction. We have Castle Doctrine, no civil liability for justified acts, (You shoot the bad guy, it's ruled justified, his momma CAN'T sue you.), optional firearms training in public school, (range time required to pass, but I don't know any school doing it yet.), no magazine capacity limit, no AWB, Anti-New Orleans Confiscation law is in place, what did I forget? You can own armored vehicles here, know a guy who has several, and yes, you can own live artillery, etc, if you jump through the hoops of GCA '68. In fact, several tank guns, including the German PAK 75mm, are listed nationally as C&R...
So, to recap, if you want to drive your restored Hetzer tank destroyer with live registered main gun, and registered MG42s, on your property, or authorized off road trails, while carrying your registered MAC-10 concealed, plus a pistol, hand ax and 3 throwing knives, (no listed limit on how many weapons, or type, you can carry concealed.), you may get asked for your paperwork, but IT'S LEGAL!!!!
Try THAT in New Jersey!

cbsbyte
December 28, 2007, 02:50 PM
Switzerland seems like a terrible place for gun ownership. France, New Zealand, and the Scandinavian countries seem like the best. I think Norway has the highest civilian firearm ownership in the world.


Your dreaming. None of those countries are great for gun ownership. While there might be a large % of gun owners in the country compared to other European nations, and oceanic nations the gun laws are very repressive. I would hate to live in one of those country's because of the very high taxes, and strict gun laws. Californians gun laws are less repressive than those countries. Next time do a search on gun laws around the world and you wil be suprised on how bad it is outside the USA.

For some odd reason our elected officials decided to price this class of weapons out of our hands.


You don't know a thing about the Federal laws pretaining civilian ownership of full auto guns do you? Our elected officals do not set the prices. In 1986 the machine gun registery was closed, meaning the prices for machine gun on list sky rocketed. It is supply and demand.

frankie_the_yankee
December 28, 2007, 03:11 PM
Dark Tranquility said:
The only exception to this is machineguns. For some odd reason our elected officials decided to price this class of weapons out of our hands.

csbyte responded:
You don't know a thing about the Federal laws pretaining civilian ownership of full auto guns do you? Our elected officals do not set the prices. In 1986 the machine gun registery was closed, meaning the prices for machine gun on list sky rocketed. It is supply and demand.

csbyte,

I think that's what Dark Tranquility was referring to.

But I fully agree with the points you made about the gun laws in the Scandinavian countries and other places.

I wouldn't read too much into this, but about the only places on Earth with better gun laws than the USA are what we would usually refer to as "hellholes". I wouldn't want to live, or even visit, any of them. (Doing a flyover as part of a wing of B-2's excepted of course.)

America is by far the best place on Earth to live, for gun owners and for everyone. No where else comes close.

joffe
December 28, 2007, 06:23 PM
The USA is the best place for gun owners. Latin American countries come a distant second. Norway and Finland have no better laws than other European countries, we just have more hunters. A bunch of Zumboes who will sell out anyone who has a black gun. Even the competition shooters will bend at the rate politicians push them.

If you somehow managed to get born in the USA or slip past the immigration nahtzees, don't even think about moving. There's no better place for gun owners.

Vitamin G
December 28, 2007, 07:39 PM
Central Africa. Full auto rifles for $20.

CountGlockula
December 28, 2007, 07:47 PM
Mogadishu, Sierra Leon, Mozambique, Sudan, Zimbabwae, East Tamor, Congo, etc.; pretty much places with tribal warfare and kids weilding AKs.

ConstitutionCowboy
December 28, 2007, 07:55 PM
Anywhere if you're a criminal. If you're law abiding, I think you'll be hard pressed to beat the US unless you start your own island nation.(Bold emphasis added.)

Good point about the criminals, Jimmie. Sometimes I think they either know or care more about freedom than the law abiding.

Woody

"I swear to protect the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, but I am not trigger-happy. I am merely prepared and determined in its defense. It's a comfortable place to be. I don't suffer doubt." B.E.Wood

frankie_the_yankee
December 28, 2007, 08:05 PM
Good point about the criminals, Jimmie. Sometimes I think they either know or care more about freedom than the law abiding.

Freedom? Or anarchy? (Or maybe sociopathy.)

Neo-Luddite
December 28, 2007, 08:18 PM
Iraq; they allow them up to .30 cal. The Coalition permits them more freedom as an occupation force than most U.S. citizens can exercise with wallet open and hat in hand begging for a cleo sign off. Of course under the 'old' regime of S. H. those loyal to him could have had anything they wanted that had been handed them via military aid from the UK, China, USA, or USSR at different times.

ConstitutionCowboy
December 28, 2007, 08:34 PM
Freedom? Or anarchy? (Or maybe sociopathy.)

I think you nailed it with sociopathy. There is no freedom without law - the law being the Constitution, of course!

So, I'd have to go with the United States. If our Congress and Supreme Court were to abide the Constitution, we'd live in the best place on Earth, under the least obtrusive government, with the best opportunity for success, and possess the freedom to protect it.

Presently, we are not in a condition to be the best we can be. Place the blame upon ourselves for it is a result of who we placed in power.

Woody

"I pledge allegiance to the rights that made and keep me free. I will preserve and defend those rights for all who live in this Union, founded on the belief and principles that those rights are inalienable and essential to the pursuit and preservation of life, liberty, and happiness." B.E.Wood

leadman
December 28, 2007, 10:02 PM
Arizona: U.S.A's freedom's center.Thanks armoredman for telling on us!!!:eek:
Now more will move here.

scout26
December 28, 2007, 11:30 PM
Antarctica ???

tabsr
December 29, 2007, 12:40 AM
The EU is requiring a new registration law and gun restrictions for all members effective January 2008. The next step is for compliance of all UN member nations.

armoredman
December 29, 2007, 12:43 AM
Then the dirty UNdies can get out.
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/UN-1.jpg

LAK
December 29, 2007, 01:00 AM
Your own private vessel (or island if you have the wallet) in international waters.

LAK
December 29, 2007, 01:02 AM
oops; an echo

nwilliams
December 29, 2007, 01:20 AM
+1 on Arizona

To add to what armoredman said AZ also recognizes any States concealed weapons permit, so if you have a permit from anywhere in the US you can conceal legally in AZ!

Of course I'm bias because I love this State. Although I love New Mexico also and they are a pretty good State for gun ownership. One advantage NM has over AZ is when it comes to vehicles in your car. AZ is pretty strict when it comes to guns in vehicles if you don't have an CCL. NM on the other hand has extended domain law, so cars are considered an extension of your home, so you can have a gun anywhere in your vehicle permit or not. For that reason its hard to say that Arizona is better when it comes to gun laws than NM.

Of course I'm sure there are other countries that have less restrictive gun laws than the US, but all the ones I can think of are places that I wouldn't care to live.

sailortoo
December 29, 2007, 01:50 AM
Thank you nwilliams, for standing up for NM. We are a bit new on CCW, but every two years we have an opportunity to correct some of the initial short comings. 2009 will see another effort to get even better! :)
sailortoo
Semper Paratus (also)

armoredman
December 29, 2007, 01:56 AM
Actually, AZ allows handguns in a vehicle if in a case, holster, or scabbard designed for firearms. So, if you have a handgun stuffed in a soft case, it's legal, carried as "luggage". Also, a recent chage allows carry in the map pocket of your car door. Getting better all the time!
F. Subsection A, paragraph 1 of this section shall not apply to a weapon or weapons carried in a belt holster which holster is wholly or partially visible, or carried in a scabbard or case designed for carrying weapons which scabbard or case is wholly or partially visible or carried in luggage. Subsection A, paragraph 2 of this section shall not apply to a weapon or weapons carried in a case, holster, scabbard, pack or luggage that is carried within a means of transportation or within a storage compartment, map pocket, trunk or glove compartment of a means of transportation.
There ya go -http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/13/03102.htm&Title=13&DocType=ARS

EricTheBarbarian
December 29, 2007, 03:35 AM
the US about 1920.

Andrewsky
December 29, 2007, 12:13 PM
The Phillippines have good gun laws. I don't think full autos are allowed to be sold there but IIRC it is legal to convert semis to full auto.

In Panama after passing an instant drug test (you literally urinate in a cup in the bathroom of the gun shop) you can buy anything but a full auto. There is no such thing as an SBR or SBS in Panama, because there are no restrictions on barrel length. If you own it, you can carry it. However, open carry will draw police attention and isn't recommended.

By the way, in "Sealand" no one may bear arms unless they are part of the "guard."

Bellevance
December 29, 2007, 12:38 PM
Vermont and Alaska.

Titan6
December 29, 2007, 02:29 PM
Iraq; we allow them up to .30 cal.

We allow them is kind of a poor interpretation of Iraqi law unless you are an Iraqi government official. Iraqi's are allowed full autos with no restrictions but only allowed to carry one magazine at a time. Finland is not bad, France isn't either but the parts of the US are much better (see above)

Dan Forrester
December 29, 2007, 03:44 PM
By that, I mean a place that allows accessibility to all types of firearms, full-auto, SBR, silenced, easy importations etc.

Can you compare and contrast the gun laws of these countries with those of the best areas of the USA? I'm thinking the laws on concealed carry, registration, owner licensing, etc. are much stricter in the countries you mentioned than almost anywhere here, and certainly more strict than a place like VT, AK or even TX.

And what about the laws relating to self defense?

His definition has nothing to do with concealed carry, registration, owner licensing or self defense. In the countries I listed full autos, SBRs, silencers, and importation requirements are either non existent or much more relaxed.

Your dreaming. None of those countries are great for gun ownership. While there might be a large % of gun owners in the country compared to other European nations, and oceanic nations the gun laws are very repressive. I would hate to live in one of those country's because of the very high taxes, and strict gun laws. Californians gun laws are less repressive than those countries. Next time do a search on gun laws around the world and you wil be suprised on how bad it is outside the USA.

I have done a search. Thatís how I came to that conclusion. Iím not saying its better, just that itís different. Easier access to class 3 toys in exchange for our CCW rights. An interesting thought.

You don't know a thing about the Federal laws pretaining civilian ownership of full auto guns do you? Our elected officals do not set the prices. In 1986 the machine gun registery was closed, meaning the prices for machine gun on list sky rocketed. It is supply and demand.

Yes I know quite a bit. I have one machine gun, half a dozen suppressors, and a grenade launcher already paid in full and waiting on my form 4 to come back in the mail.

You just said its supply and demand. Close the registry and prices skyrocket. Who closed the registry? So who caused prices to skyrocket? Now look at what I said again.

For some odd reason our elected officials decided to price this class of weapons out of our hands.

Iím pretty sure I remember reading on here a couple months ago that Africa has the lowest firearm ownership rate in the world.

Wikipedia has a good read on micronations for you private island guys. I canít ever remember seeing a truly private island for sale. And yes I have been looking for years to find one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronation

Dan

The Viking
December 29, 2007, 06:09 PM
France, New Zealand, and the Scandinavian countries seem like the best. I think Norway has the highest civilian firearm ownership in the world.

France has some silly regulations, like restrictions on military calibers, CCW only in theory, and probably some more. Scandinavia? All licenses for pistols are restricted to 5 years here in Sweden if they were issued after 2000. Gotta apply again after that. Also restrictions on how many you can own. Pepperspray, Tasers, teargas and other less than lethals are subject to impossible to get licenses. Also, EBR's are so restricted its silly, can't use them for hunting.
Face it, the US has the best gun laws in general, unless you start counting all those uncivilised places that are barely fit to call countries.

frankie_the_yankee
December 29, 2007, 07:19 PM
What I can't figure out about this thread is why anyone in their right mind would care whether some 3rd world hellhole/pesthole might happen to have easier access to more kinds of guns than we have here.

Among the civilized countries of the world, the USA has easily the best gun laws, with places like Isreal and Switzerland pretty close behind. Some might say Isreal has better laws, but it's debatable. And besides, Isreal is a quasi-war zone, with wide regions subject to rocket attacks and other wanton violence.

Here in Smithville, I can buy, own, and carry pretty much whatever I might want or need for sport or self defense. And if I ever have to use a gun to protect myself or my family, I have the benefit of some of the best laws in the country as regards the protection of life and property.

And Smithville has the advantage of never having been subjected to a rocket attack as far as anyone knows.

Does it make any sense to assert that it may be "better" in Somalia because I could ride around in a pickup with a "ma deuce" mounted in the bed?

Has anyone ever tried to buy cortisone cream in Somalia? :D

cbsbyte
December 29, 2007, 09:16 PM
Among the civilized countries of the world, the USA has easily the best gun laws, with places like Isreal and Switzerland pretty close behind. Some might say Isreal has better laws, but it's debatable. And besides, Isreal is a quasi-war zone, with wide regions subject to rocket attacks and other wanton violence.



Israel has terrible gun laws. That topic has been covered to death on this site. Israel laws are some of the worst in the world. Nothing like the US. Switzerland is also not that great, espescially with the requirements to own a firearm. If you actually read the laws you will see who bad they are compared to most US laws.

Some Israel gun laws.
1) must be 21.
2) must live in Israel for 3 consecuetive years.
3) Personal use only
4) a. Part-time reservist (volunteer) for 3 years- may own 1 handgun
b. Such a reservist (volunteer) is a member of a gun club- may own 1rifle
c. Professional, licensed public transportation driver, transportinga minimum of 5 passengers- may own 1 handgun
d. Licensed animal control officer- may own 2 hunting rifles, *not*full automatic weapons, or semi-automatic weapons with a limitedcapacity magazine.
e. Full-time dealer of jewelry or large sums of cash or valuables-may own 1 handgun

Not too great now is it.


I have done a search. That’s how I came to that conclusion. I’m not saying its better, just that it’s different. Easier access to class 3 toys in exchange for our CCW rights. An interesting thought.


Well have you read the actual laws, and requirements to own firearms in the countries you listed? Because if you did you withdraw what you stated. None of the countries are that great. While I agree they are different in many ways to the US. In Finland there are many gun owners but most of them only own hunting rifles. Very few people own handguns. In Switzerland every time a citizen wants to buy a gun they need to get a license, and the same for ammo. CCW is only legal if it pretains to a person job.

The gun culture in the rest of the world is different compared to the US. While in the US people own guns for hunting and self protection. In Europe it is mostly for hunting and sport shooting. In many countries self defense with a firearm is illegal, or at least frowned upon. In many countries firearms where not owned by common citizens but only the elites. The need for firearms was different than in the US. Where people had to learn to fend for themselves. In Europe most countries had large standing militaries, and police forces so guns where always heavily restricted for use by civilians.

Bellevance
December 29, 2007, 10:40 PM
Face it, the US has the best gun laws in general, unless you start counting all those uncivilised places that are barely fit to call countries.

Of all the world's reasonably civilized countries and their territories, the country with the most flexible and lenient laws for the private ownership of firearms is the USA. Among these United States, a handful (like Vermont and Alaska) are much less restrictive than most others.

There's no place better than right here, and I for one have no doubt that it will stay that way.

Neo-Luddite
December 29, 2007, 11:45 PM
Titan 6: I'll grant you it was a politically loaded hi-handed statment on my part and a poor choice of pronoun. I didn't know about the magazine restriction. Happy New Year!
-Mike

Birukun
December 30, 2007, 01:55 AM
I was thinking Japan would be great, as a gunowner.....

One gun to rule them all!


OK, sarcasm off, going back to my corner.

rugerman07
December 30, 2007, 09:03 AM
Kennesaw, Georgia!:)

Autolycus
December 30, 2007, 09:06 AM
I would say it varies on what aspect your looking at. CCW, full auto, silencers, etc.

Thin Black Line
December 30, 2007, 10:06 AM
Of course I'm sure there are other countries that have less restrictive gun laws than the US, but all the ones I can think of are places that I wouldn't care to live.

Because of daily black-outs, lack of clean water, fresh sewage flowing down
the street, and the occassional suicide bomber? What about the potential
for exciting night-life? Oh darn, there's that curfew again....

Titan6
December 30, 2007, 11:33 AM
The easiest answer to this question is to look at the government. Is the government intrusive in all parts of their citizens lives or does not give a hoot at all about them except as subjects? There you will find bad gun laws. The worse the place is, the worse the laws. The writers of the constitution knew what they were doing...

Autolycus
December 30, 2007, 07:42 PM
I like the definition Titan6 has just stated. Look at the government.

Hk91-762mm
December 30, 2007, 08:12 PM
I have a friend in norway-he ownes several full autos inc a sig 551.
Im in NYstinking state -I want to move to NH as VT is a hi Tax state

Nebor
December 30, 2007, 08:35 PM
The Isle of Man, and Northern Ireland allow for civilian ownership of full automatic weapons (with a license) and CCW. Also, on the Isle of Man, there are no traffic laws outside of the city. :)

frankie_the_yankee
December 30, 2007, 08:36 PM
I like the definition Titan6 has just stated. Look at the government.

I don't.

Many 3rd world hellholes/pestholes have less intrusive governments than a place like Japan, for instance.

And having been to both Japan and a few 3rd world pestholes, trust me when I tell you that it's no contest.

Keep in mind that in order to be an "owner" of guns or anything else, you first have to be alive.

Gunnerpalace
December 30, 2007, 09:40 PM
Isle of Man

Funny story about that whole deal, England passed all those nanny laws and Isle Of Man pretty much told them to go to a very hot place, we respect peoples freedoms. :D

Northern Ireland :uhoh: Not sure if I want to live there!

joffe
December 30, 2007, 10:22 PM
I have a friend in norway-he ownes several full autos inc a sig 551.
I can tell you right now that if he has one, he got it a long time ago. Nowadays even buying a 'military style' semi-auto is subject to many loopholes, and the barrel can't be shorter than 18". Full-auto is completely off-limits.

Those who have these have a 'collector license'. Not only are these licenses no longer as permissive, they are also close to impossible to get. You need to be a member of an 'approved collector society', and surprise, there's only one of those. In order to become a member, you need to be personally known to other members, you need recommendations, etc - in general they are very protective of their special rights.

che_70b
January 1, 2008, 02:43 AM
Ky is very good.
As far as other countries I have wondered about some of the former soviet block countries. I do not anthing about their laws in this regard but have wondred if they might have a better view toward an armed populace in the light of years of subgegation from the soviets.

woodybrighton
January 1, 2008, 08:51 AM
NI's a fine place just avoid some of the estates
sealand stated getting any sort of weapons and it would find itself closed permantly:rolleyes:
norway's fairly sensible

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