1911 Ccw


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HM2PAC
December 28, 2007, 07:49 PM
How do you CCW a 1911?

Cocked-and-Locked or hammer down?

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Black Majik
December 28, 2007, 07:50 PM
Cocked and locked is the ONLY way to go.

longtooth
December 28, 2007, 07:52 PM
Agree 100%. JMB intended it.

dasmi
December 28, 2007, 08:01 PM
If I carried a 1911, it would be cocked and locked. Dropping a 1911 hammer on a loaded chamber is a very, very bad idea.

Mad Magyar
December 28, 2007, 08:09 PM
Cocked-and-Locked

This way.....:)

hexidismal
December 28, 2007, 08:24 PM
C&L of course. Hammer down doesn't do you much good when you need to draw and fire fast. Also, more than half of every AD/ND I've ever heard about with 1911s has come from a slip of the two hand decock on a loaded chamber.

In fact theres a C&L 1911 on my hip right now, just as there is most of the time I'm dressed.

lurch37
December 28, 2007, 08:56 PM
Condition 1

Dobe
December 28, 2007, 09:36 PM
Is there any other way to carry?

Schmidlin
December 28, 2007, 09:40 PM
Just want to ask a guestion, is it only becuase its got a hand safty or becuase thats just how you like to carry? Would you carry any other gun this way or only because of the 1911 design?

I only ask cause im curious as ive never heard of this

DMK
December 28, 2007, 09:43 PM
Just want to ask a guestion, is it only becuase its got a hand safty or becuase thats just how you like to carry? Would you carry any other gun this way or only because of the 1911 design?The 1911 is a single action only (SAO) handgun. If the hammer is down, you can't pull the trigger. You would need to cock the hammer with your thumb before you can bring the gun into action. That's very awkward to do, especially under stress. I doubt I could do it quickly enough.

I do carry other guns with the hammer down, those that have double action triggers. But not 1911s.

You only have two carry options with a 1911:

1) Live round in chamber, hammer cocked, safety on. (Disengage grip safety by squeezing grip, thumb safety off, pull trigger to fire)

2) Chamber empty, hammer down, safety off. (Disengage grip safety by squeezing grip, cycle slide with off hand, pull trigger to fire)

Safety First
December 28, 2007, 09:44 PM
cocked and locked is the only way to carry a 1911...JMB designed it that way...but if you feel better having to rack the slide to put one in the snout when you need it to defend yourself...well then,rack the slide to chamber the round:neener:

Schmidlin
December 28, 2007, 09:45 PM
The 1911 is a single action only handgun. If the hammer is down, you can't pull the trigger.

I do carry other guns, those that have double action triggers, with the hammer down. But not 1911s.


I completely forgot all about that. Thanks for teh reminder, and man you guys are quick

Rexster
December 28, 2007, 10:20 PM
For CCW, cocked and locked, a.k.a. Condition One. If the hammer is down, and the chamber empty, a.k.a. Condition Three, deployment is much slower, and requires two hands to accomplish in a hurry, unless one has mastered one of the more arcane alternative techniques, which are still slower than Condition One. The other carry method, Condition Two, hammer down over a loaded chamber, requires a moment of peril as the trigger is momentarily pulled to release the hammer, which is hopefully controlled by a thumb, and then guiding the hammer gently downward to its rest position. This is increasingly seen as being so unsafe that it is no longer worth it. If one wants to use Condition Two, IMHO, get something like a SIG P220, which has a decocking mechanism that safely lowers the hammer, with no need to touch the trigger, yet allows thumb-cocking. I find my SIG P229 to actually be fairly easy to thumb-cock, compared to a 1911, and seem to remember the same being true of the P220 I owned in the early 90's. Of course, the normal way to make a standard SIG go bang in a hurry is to fire the first shot in DA mode.

weisse52
December 28, 2007, 11:26 PM
Cocked and Locked. It is the only safe way to carry.

TAB
December 28, 2007, 11:54 PM
1911 cocked and locked is actually alot safer then say a glock. Think about it.

If the trigger gets depressed on a glock it will go bang. On a 1911, you need to remove the safety, depress the grip safety and then pull the trigger for it to go bang.

The Lone Haranguer
December 29, 2007, 12:09 AM
OK, who is the one "hammer down" responder? Show yourself. :D

Condition One ("cocked and locked") is the only way to carry this design safely (a relative term when talking about something dangerous) yet instantly ready for action.

Ala Dan
December 29, 2007, 12:29 AM
Cocked-Locked, And Ready To Rock~! ;)

chieftain
December 29, 2007, 12:30 AM
If it ain't cocked and locked, you are just transporting it, not carrying it.

Go figure.

Fred

Big Boomer
December 29, 2007, 02:41 AM
cocked, locked, and ready to rock :evil:

Captain Bligh
December 29, 2007, 11:32 AM
Cocked and locked, the way John Moses Browning intended it.

DMK
December 29, 2007, 06:20 PM
OK, who is the one "hammer down" responder? Show yourself.Obviously either someone who does not own a 1911, or someone who owns a Para Ord.

Geno
December 29, 2007, 06:31 PM
Actually, I have read that JMB intended the 1911 to not have a manual safety, see the model 1910. The military insisted on the safety, and JMB complied. Wish I could locate a 1910. :(

Cannonball888
December 29, 2007, 06:34 PM
You forgot the half-cock option

TAB
December 29, 2007, 06:50 PM
Still to get to half cock... the hammer must fall. sooner or later the gun will go bang when doing that.

not to mention that you can't apply the safety.

1911Tuner
December 29, 2007, 06:56 PM
Wish I could locate a 1910.

Happy huntin'. There were only about 8 of'em built, and all but two...IIRC...had the thumb safety retrofitted.

Meanwhile...Will a picture do?

Whoops! Almost forgot...

1910 Colt Photograph courtesy of Charles Clawson.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e243/1911Tuner/1910.gif

HM2PAC
December 29, 2007, 07:02 PM
OK, who is the one "hammer down" responder? Show yourself.

Actually it's me. My job dictates that I can't carry on my person. Therefore I "carry" in a Dillon bag. Empty chamber and hammer down. I just don't feel comfortable with C&L when I don't have the little monster on my hip.

When I wear it, definitely C&L.

1911Tuner
December 29, 2007, 07:12 PM
C&L...JMB intended it.

FWIW...It's doubtful if Browning intended anything of the sort. He designed what he was asked for, and he didn't do it alone. The pistol was designed to carry and operate in any way that the owner chose to carry and operate it.

The hammer had checkering to aid in thumb-cocking. The original wide spurred hammers were an aid in the overhand/pinch method of decocking.
It also had a rebounding firing pin that didn't reach the primer with the hammer fully down against the firing pin stop. This suggests that there was a choice intended rather than a "right" or "wrong" method.

The hammer can be decocked on a hot chamber safely if it's correctly done, despite the number of experienced people who have fuzzy green conniptions if somebody even hints at it. It was accomplished for decades by literally tens of thousands of people. If it were that dangerous, the number of fatalities would be a matter of record by now. Yes. It's risky. So is driving to work and using a chain saw. One must exercise care and patience when engaging in activities with potentially lethal consequences.

The slide would return to battery via slingshot OR by tripping the slidestop...which is why it protruded and had checkering on it. There is no right or wrong way. There is the way that you want to do it. Browning gave us an option.

The gun was designed to allow complete disassembly by using its parts as takedown tools...but that doesn't mean that we can't use a punch and a screwdriver to do the same. Options again.

The pistol was designed to allow a cocked and locked state of readiness...no more and no less. To state flatly that it was designed and intended to BE carried in a constant state of readiness, and no other way...is a pretty fair stretch.

The practice of carrying continually in Condition One is a fairly recent one. The pistol was designed about 60 years before constant C&L carry came into vogue. Some did carry the big Colts like that all the time...but most didn't.

texagun
December 29, 2007, 08:10 PM
Tuner hit it right on the head as usual. I was reading the manual that came with my WWI Repro. It is a reproduction of the Description of the Automatic Pistol, Caliber .45 Model of 1911, published in 1917 by the Chief of Ordnance of the War Department.
It states in Important Points, in bold print, "Do not carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and safety lock on, except in an emergency." It further states under Method of Operation, "If it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use and for firing with the least possible delay the maximum number of shots...." (it then goes on to describe in detail how to carry the weapon cocked and locked, adding,) "The slide and hammer being thus positvely locked, the pistol may be carried safely at full cock, and it is only necessary to press down the safety lock (which is located within easy reach of the thumb) when raising the pistol to the firing position."

OhioPaints
December 29, 2007, 08:39 PM
There is a third option not in the poll: no round in the chamber, needing to rack the slide on the draw.

At one gun store, that's the way the owner carried and he had been carrying that way for many years.

I agree (don't yell at me!), it's a very poor way of carrying. I carry cocked and locked....or I carry a Sig P220.

Ken

1911Tuner
December 29, 2007, 08:57 PM
There is a third option not in the poll: no round in the chamber, needing to rack the slide on the draw.

I've carried in all three conditions over the course of my life...though 99.9% of the time, I carry in Condition 1. Circumstances and need dictate the condition. Kinda like John Wayne noted in his last movie, "The Shootist":

"If your gut tells ya to load 6...Load 6."

I may carry the pistol in C-3 while I'm knockin' around the house or the property. Some days I do, and some days I rack the slide and engage the safety. If I go to town, I go in C-1. If I go to Southmont or Cotton Grove...I carry it the way my gut tells me to.

If I'm doin' a cookout, with kids and dogs and inebriated adults all around...it's in C-3. No. I don't drink. Armed or not.

Quaamik
December 29, 2007, 10:07 PM
Cocked & locked.

If I'm in a position that I don't want a cocked & locked 1911, then I carry something else. I can't find a way to cock a 1911 in a hurry that's safe, reliable and wides up witht he weapon in my control and pointed at the attacker.

In my personal opinion, condition 3 the same as carrying an unloaded gun as far as self defense is concerned.

1911Tuner
December 29, 2007, 10:25 PM
In my personal opinion, condition 3 the same as carrying an unloaded gun as far as self defense is concerned.

A point that the Israeli Defense League may argue with you over. They seem to do pretty well with it. Of course...they rarely wait until things go very far before they draw...but they do seem to have mastered the art of getting a C-3 pistol into the game quickly.

The Lone Haranguer
December 29, 2007, 10:46 PM
In my personal opinion, condition 3 the same as carrying an unloaded gun as far as self defense is concerned.
But you can still use it as a bludgeon or throwing object. :evil:

My beef with C2 carry is not so much the lowering of the hammer onto a live round, but trying to cock it on the draw. It is possible to do it with the support hand thumb, but I've found it next to impossible with the shooting hand thumb. Add fear and stress into the equation, and you can take the "next to" out.

A point that the Israeli Defense League may argue with you over. They seem to do pretty well with it.
Perhaps, but (with all due respect to them) their needs are not the same as ours.

I read an article in Handguns magazine c. the mid 1990s concerning the Israeli carry. Unfortunately, I've forgotten a lot of it. :( One thing I do remember is that one reason was commonality of training with an assortment of different handguns. No matter the location of thumb safeties, slide stops and other controls, a chamber-empty/hand-rack carry would always work the same.

chieftain
December 30, 2007, 02:22 AM
My beef with C2 carry is not so much the lowering of the hammer onto a live round, but trying to cock it on the draw. It is possible to do it with the support hand thumb, but I've found it next to impossible with the shooting hand thumb. Add fear and stress into the equation, and you can take the "next to" out.


Seems a lot of folks did it for years with the Colt and other brands of single action pistols for years. Look at all those folks with DA/SA pistols, most of them cock the pistol first.

No, cocking a handgun to get it into action has a long and successful history, in fact.

Perhaps, but (with all due respect to them) their needs are not the same as ours.

Huh? Using a personal weapon like the handgun is different for them? I don't think so. They use a handgun because it will be with them when they need it. Otherwise only a fool would not be using a shoulder weapon in a firefight. Right?

The primary reason handguns still exist is that they are convenient.

Go figure.

Fred

AZ_Rebel
December 30, 2007, 02:57 AM
You forgot the half-cock option

Half-Cock is NOT an option for carrying a 1911.

1911Tuner
December 30, 2007, 07:36 AM
Half-Cock is NOT an option for carrying a 1911.

Agree 101%. The half-cock notch is not, and was never intended to be a carry safety. its only purpose is to arrest the hammer should the hooks fail...or if the hammer should follow the slide during a slidelock reload...or if the hammer should get loose during thumb cocking. It's a backup to the system, and nothing more.

PakWaan
December 30, 2007, 12:27 PM
One of the main advantages of carrying a 1911 is the awesome SA trigger, being able to get the gun on target and fire a round quickly and accurately while your adrenaline is pumping and your hands are shaking. This is a lot easier to do with a 5 lb SA trigger than it is with a 10 pound DA trigger and a long trigger pull.

With the pistol cocked and locked, it's not going to fire unless you disengage the safety. It's also not going to fire unless you depress the grip safety. There is nothing unsafe about this method of carry. Personally, I feel a lot safer with my 1911 C&L than I do with a round chambered in my Glock with nothing but the trigger 'safety'.

People who are uncomfortable with "cocked and locked" would probably be better off with a DAO pistol. My DA guns are now safe queens and my 1911 is on my hip.

1911Tuner
December 30, 2007, 12:47 PM
People who are uncomfortable with "cocked and locked" would probably be better off with a DAO pistol.

No one has really argued that carrying a 1911-pattern pistol in Condiction One is unsafe. Only that there are other options should the owner decide that he or she wants to carry it in a lesser state of readiness. The main one being that it's somehow unholy to decock the piece on a hot chamber.

PakWaan
December 30, 2007, 01:27 PM
But my point was that carrying it in a lesser state of readiness by definition makes you less ready to confront a threat when needed. The odds are that the average (non-LEO) person will probably only need a gun in a life-threatening situation once in a lifetime, if ever - and then you will need it immediately. I would rather carry a DA pistol with a round in the chamber than have to rack the slide on my 1911 - it's going to be arguably faster, and it only requires one hand. Take away C&L and you negate one of the biggest advantages of carrying a 1911.

I purchased my first 1911 only a few weeks ago, and was at first uncomfortable with the idea of C&L also. It only took a little education and a week of carrying it to realize that my fears were unfounded.

1911Tuner
December 30, 2007, 01:35 PM
But my point was that carrying it in a lesser state of readiness by definition makes you less ready to confront a threat when needed.

I understand, PakWan...and I carry in C-1 almost all the time. Almost.

As I sit here enjoying this rural rainy Sunday by the fire with turbocoffee in my cup, and surrounded by about 10 dogs...I have an old Springfield 1911A1 in the leather...in Condition 3. Should I...God forbid...run outta coffee and have to make a trip to the grocery store...it'll be in Condition 1, where it'll remain for the rest of the day. Tomorrow morning, it'll go in the leather in C-3...unless and until I leave. While I'm here, I'll depend on about 600 pounds of collective dog...and the 12 gauge coach gun hangin' over the bedroom door.

PakWaan
December 30, 2007, 01:39 PM
Exactly - and if you had the 600 pounds of dog with you when you went out, the gun could probably safely stay in Condition 3 ;)

By the way, off topic, if you haven't tried roasting your own coffee, you are really missing a treat. Home roasters are pretty cheap, and the green beans cost less than half of what pre-roasted beans cost. You haven't experienced coffee until you've had beans that were roasted yesterday! Check out http://www.roasting.org for everything you need to know about roasting at home.

OhioPaints
December 30, 2007, 01:55 PM
it'll be in Condition 1, where it'll remain for the rest of the day. Tomorrow morning, it'll go in the leather in C-3...

FWIW, unchambering and rechambering a round multiple times can cause setback and high pressure. One ammo manufacturer recommends that rounds be rechambered a maximum of 2 or 3 times. This is a more critical issue with higher pressure rounds like 40SW, but still could be a safety issue.

I rarely unchamber a round, but when I do, it goes back to a lower position in the magazine.

Ken

1911Tuner
December 30, 2007, 02:30 PM
Exactly - and if you had the 600 pounds of dog with you when you went out, the gun could probably safely stay in Condition 3

Nope. It'd be in C-1.

FWIW, unchambering and rechambering a round multiple times can cause setback and high pressure.

Not in any of my pistols, bruddah. I can chamber the same round every day for a month and get less than .003 inch of setback. If the 1911 is feeding correctly, it won't do that.

By the way, off topic, if you haven't tried roasting your own coffee, you are really missing a treat.

I've got 14 dogs here, total...of all sizes and descriptions. I cast my own bullets and I shoot a LOT. I've got two teenagers in the house. I wish I had time to roast my own coffee. :rolleyes:

Normally, I dump in enough to make the spoon stand up in the cup and slam it down. :D

chieftain
December 30, 2007, 02:46 PM
Tuner,

Interesting.

I carry my Colt in C3 in the house, C1 when I venture out. And next to the bed is a legally short barreled double with dog ears.

I haven't replaced my 75lb Chocolate Lab, I had got at the pound.

On occasion I carry a Browning Hipower instead. Same rules apply.

Used to have a nice little house in New Bern, down in the Piedmont.

Interesting.

Go figure.

Fred

1911Tuner
December 30, 2007, 04:16 PM
Interesting.

Indeed. Ain't nothin' like bucolic livin' with a pack of dogs and a fire and an a double shotgun...with exposed hammers on my end too, I might add...

:cool:

I've also got a High Power that does yeoman service occasionally.

You...wouldn't happen to have a Sharps Cavalry Carbine...wouldja?

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e243/1911Tuner/McNelly.jpg

Bob M.
December 30, 2007, 04:22 PM
Cocked, Locked, Ready To Rock, Doc!!!! :)

Grizzly Adams
December 31, 2007, 12:18 AM
Hate to be an oddball, but I have to admit that I carry in condition 2.

But before I'm burned at the stake let me say that although I carry a 1911 or facsimile, I shoot SA revolvers as much or more then I do semis so cocking for the first shot just comes natural for me.

MaddSkillz
December 31, 2007, 01:36 AM
Don't many 1911's have a trigger safety mechanism in place that in order for the gun to fire the trigger must be pulled? If the hammer were to drop for some reason with a live round in the chamber it would not fire. Why then would it be a bad thing to carry cocked and locked?

chieftain
December 31, 2007, 02:05 AM
You...wouldn't happen to have a Sharps Cavalry Carbine...wouldja?

beautiful. Nope, got me there. I sure would love to have one to play with though.

In fact I think I might go have a cup of coffee and consider whether I am jealous or not.

Yea, I am jealous. You win. Digging in my safe for a kool rifle to one up the ole' tuner with. Nah nuthin' that kool. Sigh.

Tuner you win.

Happy New Years to you and your loved ones, Sir.

Fred

AZ_Rebel
December 31, 2007, 03:13 AM
Not going to light that fire....:) but...

Hate to be an oddball, but I have to admit that I carry in condition 2.

One of the big problems that some of us have with Condition 2 are the mechanics of getting to that position. You have to go from a pistol in Condition Zero - Pull the trigger while holding the hammer - Lower the hammer under control until it rests against the firing pin stop. All in all a procedure that is fraught with danger. It is a Negligent Discharge in waiting.

Add to that the procedure of having to cock that small hammer in order to fire the piece - not at all like cocking the hammer on a SA revolver which lends itself to the procedure by design.

What makes you prefer an (inherently dangerous) Condition 2 over a (demonstrably safer) Condition 1? You must have your reason(s).

1911Tuner
December 31, 2007, 08:39 AM
Let's recap for the benefit of the late comers...

Don't many 1911's have a trigger safety mechanism in place that in order for the gun to fire the trigger must be pulled? If the hammer were to drop for some reason with a live round in the chamber it would not fire. Why then would it be a bad thing to carry cocked and locked?


Madd...Yes. It's called the half-cock, and there's nothing at all wrong with carrying the pistol cocked and locked. Most of us do.

What makes you prefer an (inherently dangerous) Condition 2 over a (demonstrably safer) Condition 1? You must have your reason(s).

AZ...Condition 2 isn't any more unsafe than Condition 1. It's getting it there that's risky...but doable with practice.

Hate to be an oddball, but I have to admit that I carry in condition 2.

I do it mysell on occasion. Not often...but occasionally. I haven't done it in several years, though. The conditions that I carried in that mode haven't been present in a long time.

Yea, I am jealous. You win. Digging in my safe for a kool rifle to one up the ole' tuner with.

heh...Just wait'll my next one comes in. Can't decide on .50-90 or .45-120
:D

chieftain
December 31, 2007, 09:25 AM
heh...Just wait'll my next one comes in. Can't decide on .50-90 or .45-120

OWWWW!

Gives power rating a whole new meaning.

Good luck

Fred

Glockman17366
December 31, 2007, 09:42 AM
If I carried a 1911, it would be cocked and locked. Dropping a 1911 hammer on a loaded chamber is a very, very bad idea.

Even decocking a 1911 (on a loaded chamber) is a bad idea. Had my only ND doing this.
And, there's no good reason to do this...

Autolycus
December 31, 2007, 11:48 AM
When I had a 1911, I carried it cocked and locked around the house.

AZ_Rebel
December 31, 2007, 02:00 PM
Condition 2 isn't any more unsafe than Condition 1. It's getting it there that's risky...

That's the point I make in #50 and you are, of course, right that Condition 2 is safe but the "gettin' there" is risky.

...but doable with practice.

That kind of reminds me of Evel Knievel's position about jumping cars, busses and canyons on a motorcycle... doable with practise. BUT... even ole Evel (R.I.P.) missed one once in a while and had to pay the piper.

We had this same discussion at Gunsite with a student who was the Chief Firearms Training Officer of a Major Metropolitan City. While demonstrating his "technique" of lowering the hammer he put a bullet through his brand new leather jacket that was draped over a chair in front of him. Col. Cooper had a private chat with him about that!

Tuner - We agree that it's a procedure that is risky - we disagree about the acceptability of the risk. The beauty of a civilized discussion on THR!:D

1911Tuner
December 31, 2007, 02:35 PM
While demonstrating his "technique" of lowering the hammer he put a bullet through his brand new leather jacket that was draped over a chair in front of him.

See Rule 2. The one about never allowing the muzzle to cover anything that you don't want to see destroyed. The man got careless. Simple as that.

A modicum of care must be exercised when operating potentially dangerous machinery...ranging from a chain saw to a hand grenade to a LAW rocket to a pickup truck. Lowering the hammer on a hot chamber requires no less care and focused attention. A suitable bullet stop is also a plus. If you cock the hammer on a double-action revolver, and discover that you either can't take the shot or the opportunity has passed...Then what? You can't swing the cylinder out until the hammer is down, and you can't decock the piece without pulling the trigger and controlling the hammer. Do you leave it cocked until such time that you can fire it...or do you fire it into the ground...or do you carefully lower the hammer while paying close attention to the muzzle's direction?

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