[Kalindras]

Alrighty, then. I've decided (and more importantly, my finances are finally such that I can act on it) to start easing my way back into precision shooting. Nothing organised, mind you. I'm not looking to compete in benchrest or anything extreme. But I am looking to build up a rifle that will let me work my shooting skills up to where I can, with certainty and droll repetitiveness, reach out and touch targets out to 1000 yards. I figure I'll start small, and improve my equipment as my skills improve to warrant it.

You could say, I'll be rewarding myself with equipment upgrades as I find that I have achieved certain milestones. To wit:

I'm starting off with a Savage 10FP. I figure my first concerns are scope, trigger, and stock, in no particular order. I've already spoken to a 'smith who's willing to work with me on the trigger, and I'm looking around at stocks. The last thing that I'm wrestling with the glass. I've perused an array of websites, and come to rest on a few criteria--whether they are realistic or not will be the perview of this discussion, I expect. They are:

1. Variable, to at least 20x, preferably 24x. I'm shooting at ranges from 50 yards to 1000 (and willing to lose field at extremely close, say under 200 yards)
2. Mil-dot reticle (I'm using this to help me learning the windage and ranging)
3. And here's the really tough bit...I'm hoping for $200 or less. I already know that the Leupold Vari-X scopes are fine specimens...I also don't have a money tree to work from. I'm hoping to keep the entire package for this rifle under $750!! :uhoh:

So, am I smoking crack? Or is this do-able? Any suggestions? If I'm being unrealistic, where do I need to check myself?

Thanks in advance for your time and thoughts, folks!!

Kal

[Peetmoss]

Am I understanding you correctly you want a gun capable of relitivly accurate 1000yrd shots with a mil dot scope for $750 dollars? If so I would have to say yes you are smoking crack big time.

If you want a decent rifle that can shoot good groups at reasonable ranges to start 750 is enough. A savage is a pretty accurate gun. And for the money you can't beat it. Out of the box it is agurably one of the most capable rifles around. But your box stock savage isn't a 1000yrd gun. Niether is the Remington or any other for that matter.

As for the scope the 200 dollar range maybe multiply that by 5 to 10 and you will have a nice mil dot scope of 20x magnification.

Sorry for sounding miserable but what I am trying to say is just get the Savage in a heavy barrel config in the caliber of your choice. The buy a sharpshooter trigger for it if you get one of the new models with the new trigger this might not be needed I havn't tried one yet. Maybe something like this http://www.savagearms.com/centerfire/varmint/10fp.htm You should be able to find it for maybe 450 or so then take whatever money you can scrape together and buy the best scope you can afford.

[HankL]

Kalindras, You say that you want to "ease yourself back into precision shooting." I would like to ask you what type of precision shooting you were doing before? Your answer would be helpful for me to make any suggestions as to your question.

Best Regards

[Kalindras]

Okay...well, first up, let me clear up any illusions that may be forming. First up, my prior experience in precision shooting was eight years ago, and consisted of my friend Angie (a marksman for the local sheriff's department) going out to his farm, where he had set up a home-grown range out to 1500 yards (which he could hit, almost magically it seemed, from anywhere). He would hand me his rifle, and spot for me. Most of the time, he would make all of the necessary calculations and such for me, and I just learned to press the trigger. Toward the end of my learning from him, I had acquired a Savage 110, and was learning to do all of that for myself. Then our lives went in different directions, and I didn't have much of a chance to keep up with shooting or Angie. Still haven't caught up with Angie, but I've finally gotten to a point where I can shoot again.

I make no pretense of being a highly-trained sniper. Heck, I'm no rifleman--right now I barely qualify as a man with a rifle! :p However, I freely admit to having a real taste for being able to sit down on a range, look through my scope at a target I can barely see unaided, and put a bullet through it, right where I want to. Thus, I would like to ease back into that shooting style, and figure this is a good way to start, without sinking three or four thousand dollars into all the gear, up front.

Now, the $750 price tag is set with this, and my level of experience, in mind. In all of my VAST ( :rolleyes: ) experience, and from all of the wisdom I've tried to garner from TFL and other sources, a rifleman can shoot just fine with a less-expensive weapon--but a high-priced rifle won't make you a good shot. I'd rather start small, and put the extra cash into range time and ammo!! :D

So, while I KNOW I'm aiming high (pun apologised for) in my hopes for this rifle, I guess I'm trying to give the impression that I'd like to put together a rifle that will outshoot me for a good while.

Also, I've seen too many times that someone will ask for advice, without any sort of concrete idea of money, and get answers ranging from, "Well, I've got a Wal-mart Tasco, and I can get two-inch groups every time from it," to, "Well, I swear by my handmade, custom-spec'ed U.S. Optics." So, without trying to offend anyone, I was trying to give a price range to aim for. If there's no such animal, then there you are. If such is the case, I'd be really greatful if someone could point towards a choice that at least heads in the right direction. ;)

So, I hope this clears up some of my previous tangents. I'm really not as big a twit as I come across...most of the time, at least!! :evil:

Kal

[CWL]

Don't know if you've already bought that Savage or not.

My suggestion is to spend all your money on rifle with iron sights rather than optics. Perhaps a used M1A or Garand. They both have the ability to hit out to 1000 yards (eventually) and are good rifles that you can slowly upgrade all the parts on from sights to triggers to barrels and stocks, free-float, etc.

[Art Eatman]

No reason a wooden stock won't serve, if you do your own bedding and free-float the forearm and all that. You can replace it with something like a synthetic from McMillan, et al, later on...First off, I'd say getting the trigger righteous would be my beginning step.

While I agree that more is better, in scopes, you can make do with some relatively cheap scope while your billfold gets healthier. I guess my choice would be a function of warranty, so if it lies down and dies is doesn't cost anything to replace.

For the short run, if you're shooting at known distances, the mil-dots are less necessary. The main thing there, IMO, is learning the trajectory of your load.

Purely as an example, I picked up a Bushmaster Match Target. It had a $100 Tasco 6x24 already installed. I found that it shot to within 1/2" for one shot at 6X and then a second shot at 24X. Stock trigger, I could put five shots into 1/2MOA at 100 yards. The scope has survived about 500 rounds, so it's not totally fragile trash. My view is that if the warranty is good, the scope is usable...

I don't pretend this is the best way, but it gets you back to shooting.

Art

[HankL]

Kal, I see where you are wanting to go and I wish you the best of luck.
Don't forget to include a base and set of rings in your budget.
Ebay or one of the other on line auctions could be a consideration while shopping for your optics. Do your reasearch first because many of the variable power Mil Dot scopes must be used at a given power setting to range.

Let us know how your project comes along.

[cratz2]

I think stretching your budget a bit may help. Savage 110FP in 7mm Rem or 300 Win Mag runs $399 or $409 here, with the old triggers. Along with a Tasco Super Sniper scope for under $300. Of course, your budget is pretty much gone right there. No rings, no bases, no trigger work.

If I were set on getting a purpose-built 1,000 yard gun together on a budget, this is surely how I would start. Start looking now for the scope. There's one here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31714&item=1988291775) on eBay. Once you get some serious practice in and want to get a better scope, and you assuredly WILL, you should be able to sell it for a decent price.

I'd be more comfortable getting the basics out of the way. Get the gun, get the scope, do something about the trigger. Practice until you're at 4" every time at 300 yards and move on out.

As a side note about the Savage triggers, I've owned about 7 Savage rifles and I've been able to get perfectly good triggers out of two of them. One I never got around to working on, and I put a Sharpshooter trigger on one.

[cheygriz]

Kalindras,

$750 is not reasonable, but $1250-$1500 will do it.

Get yourself a nice Remington Sendero in .300 or .30-.338 Magnun, and a decent scope. A Leupold or Nikon 6.5-20 with targt knobs will do nicely. Of course a Hensoldt, Schmidt & Bender, Zeiss, etc would be better, but they're pricey.

If you're really interested in long range, a .300 WinMag or a .30-.338 will be far superior to a .308 or .30-06.

And unless you're an experienced gunsmith/stockmaker, I would advise you to avoid wooden stocks like the plague! (Sorry, Art, but I must respectfuly disagree with you on this one.)

[craigz]

As everyone else has said, you're going to need to spend more on a good scope for that distance. Make sure you get something with target knobs and 1/4 MOA adjustments. Also, you'll probably find that 24X or even 20X is too much. The mirage will mess you up badly at that power. Stick with 10X or 16X at the most. If you buy a Leupold (and you probably should), you can save a little money by not getting a mildot reticle. Later, when you have the bucks, you can send it to Premier Reticles and have one installed.

I would say save up and go for the Leupold 3.5-10X40 M1, about $650 if you shop around.

[Art Eatman]

cheygriz, I'm not advocating staying with the wood stock. I'm saying use whatcha got and upgrade as you can afford. Bedding and suchlike is mostly labor, and labor's free to a halfway competent do-it-yourselfer.

That's why I said do the trigger first. (Or buy...) Then get what scope you can afford. That gets you shooting.

I've been trading off my labor and time for cost-savings, for what seems like forty forevers. Cars, guns, home repairs...When somebody says, "Budget...," I automatically think "Start small, and work up..."

:), Art

[redneck2]

kinda doing the same thing

Got a Remington Sendero 700 in 7 Mag. Already has the heavy barrel and HS Precision stock. 162 grain A-Max's are supposed to be very accurate and very high BC. I'm getting a Burris 8x32 scope. I'll have about $1,000 in the whole thing.

[Gewehr98]

Seen several of them at 1000 yard matches. Big belted magnums definitely have the oomph to reach at that range, but they're not totally necessary. Witness the Palma Matches, with the "lowly" .308 Winchester. And the 6.5-06 or 6.5-284. Competed against a 700 VLS in .260 Remington one year in a 500-1000 yard match. The guy did very well.

Don't go cheap on the optics. You'll regret that faster than almost anything else in your long-range shooting system.

[Steve Smith]

Expect to put money into reloading abd a few barrels.

[cratz2]

Yes, the 308 will do what you are wanting to do and if 'only' going out to 600 yards, will probably kill paper as well as any factory caliber. For a dedicated 1,000 yard gun, I'd personally go with 7mm Rem Mag. Recoil isn't too bad with a heavy barrel, has much more knockdown power if you decide to shoot at something more resilient than paper and will remain supersonic with the heaviest bullets. Also, 25-06 is available in the 110FP if you want a bit less recoil and/or noise than with the 7mm Mag.

Another rifle that is starting to get wider distribution are the Howas. They've made models for Weatherby, Smith & Wesson and others - well-proved track record but not as popular as the Savages. You can find information on them at www.legacysports.com and can search for 'Howa' at TFL. I have an Ultralight in 243 that is more accurate than me - best I can generally hold to is 2 MOA or maybe just under 1.5 MOA if I'm having a good day. They have very good triggers out of the box. If you get a laminated stock Varminter, it has a very well floated barrel and a nice rigid stock unlike the Savage synthetic stocks. I've seen the stainless varminter for $599 and it lists for $771. The blued model is more than $100 less. Might be something to consider. The heavy barrel models only come in 223, 22-250 and 308 so might make your decision easier. Not sure what the twist rage is on the 308 either.

Reloading is something you should almost budget in to your plans. Even if it's a very basic setup. And cerrtainly don't expect Winchester white box to be accurate enough for 1,000 range shooting.

[redneck]

The rifle is the platform for everything else. If its not accurate it won't matter if you have the hubbel telescope to sight it with.
And even though shooting with iron sights is a whole different ball game than with a scope, it still teaches the most important disciplines of shooting: breathing, trigger control etc.
So I say get the rifle, and fix it up now, trigger, bedding etc. Keep it in your budget, but make it shoot as good as possible.
Down the line when you have some more cash, and your getting good results for as far out as you can with iron sights, buy the scope.

[HankL]

Impact guns has a Savage Mod 10FP with pillar bedded stock for $397.00 HERE (http://www.impactguns.com/store/index.html) Their gunsmith will do a trigger job on the rifle for $79.00.

S.W.F.A. Has a BSA Mil-Dot scope HERE (www.swfa.com/riflescopes/bsa/index.html) for $89.95.

This would leave you some left over for rings and bases. Look around at Brownells (www.brownells.com) .

HTH Have fun.

[cratz2]

And certainly not recommending them per se but I had a 4-16x BSA Illuminated MilDot scope on my 308 Savage 12FVSS and it worked just fine for me for about 180 rounds. It's plenty bright for daytime shooting, as good as Tasco, Bushnell (non Elite) or Simmons.

On the topic of budget higher power scope, the Simmons 44Mag 6.5-20x44 worked for me just great for about 3 years of several different rifles. Mirage is always going to be a problem at 20x at 1,000 yards but in the 'brand new for under $200' range, it ain't too bad a scope.

[hps1]

Don't sell the non magnum calibers too short for long range shooting.

The 180 gr. matchkings can be easily driven to 2700 fps in 30-06, leaving velocity of 1300 fps+ and energy of 700 fp+ @ 1000 yds.
I like the 190's for long range paper punching and they are still supersonic (nearly 200 fps to spare). The 7 mag. w/175 gr. bullet beats the '06 180's by only about 140 fps and 90 fp energy @ 1000.

Even the 308 will stay supersonic @ 1000 w/180's but just barely .

As redneck mentioned, you could start out with iron sights to reinforce your marksmanship basics and add the scope later as your pocket book recovers.

By all means, plan on reloading, as Cratz2 pointed out. Not only will you be able to craft more accurate ammo for your chosen rifle, you can afford to shoot a lot more, which is the single most important factor in becoming proficient w/your rifle. Enjoy!

Regards,
hps

[Gewehr98]

I was just gonna ask cratz2 what he was smoking when he posted that the .308 is good only to 600 yards.

Methinks it's another case of dreaded Magnumitis creeping in, fueled by the glossy gunrags and purveyors of the .300 RUM, .300 WSM, Lazzeroni, and so forth.

Keeping the bullet supersonic has and will continue to be done, as witnessed by the folks shooting the .30-06 and .308 Winchester during the Wimbledon Cup and Palma Matches. Palma runs a 155gr .308, no less, per the rules. I do the same with my 700PSS in .308. It's not my first gun of choice for 1000 yard shots, that being left to my 6.5-06. But on competition day, the 700PSS is in the truck, waiting to step in should something happen to choice #1.

M1 Garands and M14's were fired in competitions way out there for years before the big belted magnums blasted their way onto the scene. Now the guys with the black rifles of .223 bore are showing remarkable results at 1000 yards. Granted, they aren't gonna bowl over a Cape Buffalo at that range, but short of a military sniper, who is gonna take that shot, anyway?

[bogie]

Okay... Option 1 would be to start with a Remington 700 from Wally World - $350ish, but you may be able to find one used.

Send it off to a precision gunsmith (look at the listing at www.benchrest.com), and tell 'em to true the action ($200). A "shot out' benchrest barrel will run you about $225 with a fresh chamber, and will probably shoot better than anything you'll get from a factory.

Option 2 - I sent a Savage 110 action (paid $200 for it) to Paul Dorsey, and he trued it up, checked it out, and tuned the trigger. $150 I think. Picked up a benchrest barrel for $75, and sent it and the action to Billy Stevens, and for another $150 or so, he rechambered it and screwed it in remington-style. The stock cost around $250 or so (I dismember...).

[cratz2]

I was just gonna ask cratz2 what he was smoking when he posted that the .308 is good only to 600 yards.


Oh no no no no... Now you're mis-quoting me. :cuss: I said it was 'as well as any factory caliber.' As in if shooting at paper out to 600 yards, in 99% of conditions, there are only a very few reasons to have anything other than 308 considering its virutes (wide availability, low priced ammo if needed in a pinch) Certainly not that is was 'good only to 600 yards'

At the same time, I think if building a dedicated, purpose-built 1,000 yard target rifle, better caliber choices exist than the .308. That's all I said, nothing more, nothing less. ;)

[cheygriz]

There's no question that a .308 can be used at 1,000 yards. The .45-70 and the .30-40 Krag were used in 1,200 Meter competition with good results.

However, for someone fairly new to the game, who has little experience doping out wind drift, mirage etc., a magnum will usually be a bit easier to hit with.

IMHO, the Royal Marine Snipers use the nearly ideal long range caliber, the .338 Lapua. Trouble is, they're pricey.

Handloading is almost a necessity! if you have to look for bargains for the rifle, you won't be able to afford the tons of match grade ammo needed for practice and competition.

Art,

No flame intended, my friend! I agree that wood stock guns can be made to shoot as well as modern guns if you tinker with them a bit. I've probably rebedded at least a dozen for myself, and twice that many for friends. Cetainly not something that I enjoy, but often it's necessary.

[Art Eatman]

Aw, no flame taken. I just didn't make it clear that if you have something that already has a wooden stock and you're on a budget, other purchases have priority...

If the price differential is low between a rifle with a wooden stock and one with synthetic, the only question then is the quality of the synthetic: They ain't all equal.

The synthetic stock on my 700ADL .308 is garbage. The forearm has a truly severe case of flexitis. (One of these days, when I get a round tuit...:) )

Art

[Steve Smith]

One thing to keep in mind:

While there are better long range cartridges than the .308, most if not all come with the price of a faster barrel wear. Barrel wear will show itself first at longest distances, of course. You must decide what you can accept more of...better accuracy (actually better wind resistance) at longer distance, or longer barrel life.

[Zorro]

Day 0ne, you will not be shooting at 1000 yards.

Let your rifle evolve as you are able to make use of new improvements.

As for Calibers, 7MM Remington or .300 Winchester magnums are as hard as you want to go.

A Non-Mag 6.5 MM Caliber might work better though!

[bogie]

Consider the 6.5/284.

And a LONG barrel.

For that matter, check out Shooter's Corner (under "complete rifles" at benchrest.com), and see what sorta used stuff they've got.

[Gewehr98]

But I have seen guys tenderize themselves to a pulp at 1000 yard matches with monster belted magnums, over the course of 80-100 rounds. One guy I shot against had a 7mmSTW on a Sako action. To keep the recoil down, he left the stainless steel barrel a complete 1.25" in diameter, all the way to the muzzle at 28". I think there were lighter crew-served weapons than his Sako. :D

Give me a 6.5-06, 6.5-284, or 6.5 Gibbs.

[Kalindras]

Sheesh, go away from the forum for a few days, and when I come back, I find all manner of controversy's been stirred up...

:what:

Yow!

In case anyone's wondering where I pulled that (seemingly ludicrous) figure of $750, it was after perusing GunBroker, and seeing this combo:

Savage .308 (http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=6995214)

And I got to thinking, as I was already looking to build a similar rifle, if it might be possible to pick up different parts (or better parts) for a similar cost. While I don't imagine that this rifle is the be-all or end-all of precision shooting, I expect it would be just fine to start out and learn with. Thus, my questions.

I appreciate everyone's responses and advice, both on the forum, and in private email!! It's been enormously helpful in pointing me down the road that I seem to be wanting to trod.

:D

Kal