If someone killed your dog...?


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hankdatank1362
December 29, 2007, 01:26 PM
Now, before we get started, I know a dog is not a human and no matter how we feel about our beloved pets their lives do not carry the weight of a human life in court.

That said, imagine someone killed your dog right in front of you, probably with a firearm. Your dog did not attack them. Say, for instance, your dog had gotten loose a couple days ago and ate their flower garden, or growled at them or something of that sort. Let me reiterate: YOUR DOG DID NOT ATTACK ANYONE.

Would you construe that attack on your animal to mean that you might be the attacker's next victim? Would you use deadly force to protect yourself, even if he never pointed a weapon at you? Do you think that you could articulate your reason for shooting the attacker to a jury and be no billed / found innocent?

What difference would it make if you were walking the dog down the road or if the attack occured on your own property?

Once again, I know the law does not see an animal's life as being equal to a human's life, but if someone were to kill your dog in front of you, with no good reason (your dog did not attack them), could you legally interpret that as a threat on your life and respond as such?

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1911Tuner
December 29, 2007, 01:38 PM
There would be a day of reckoning, I'm afraid. If the shooter pulled a gun and shot my dog while I had it ona leash...there'd probably be a gunfight.

That said...I lost my Redtick girl about 2 months ago. Hyper and determined to get loose from the half-acre fenced enclosure that she shares with the others during the day...she got past me and lit out. She's done it before, and usually shows up about feeding time. That day was different.

There had been a dog pack...loose pets...that had been killing livestock in the area. Several goats...a few cows...did about 2,000 dollars worth of damage to a quarterhorse at the stables down the road...even killed and maimed several cats and other dogs. The day my girl disappeared, I heard a single rifle shot from the vicinity of the goats, about a half-mile away as the crow flies. Didn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Although she wouldn't have hurt any of'em...she would have run in for a romp, bein' the playful sort. The man wouldn't have waited to see if she was friend or foe...and I can't blame him.

I miss the ol dumbass, hardhead dog...

cassandrasdaddy
December 29, 2007, 01:40 PM
shoot em for it ? probably not i'm a hands on kinda guy.

hankdatank1362
December 29, 2007, 01:44 PM
I can understand that... seeing as how you weren't anywhere nearby.

I mean if you were within 20 yards or so of your dog.

BTW, thatks for the response Tuner. I know you're a big dog lover, so I really wanted to hear your input.

1911Tuner
December 29, 2007, 01:53 PM
I mean if you were within 20 yards or so of your dog.

Within 20 yards? On my property, there'd probably be a gunfight. If he shot my dog while I had him on a leash...there would definitely be a gunfight.

If my dog was on his property, and not being threatening...but had only done a little property damage? We'd have a problem, although he'd be within his rights. I'd expect a neighbor to be a stand-up guy and approach me for restitution instead of just killing my dog.

I've had stray dogs show up here, and they do "dog" things. Dogs are dogs.
Probably the best dog I've ever had...here with me now...just wandered up stray and starving. I caught her just before she turned my garbage can over. I fed her, and took her in...and she's been here ever since, and the only problem she has now is deciding who to sleep with...so she takes turns.
Siberian Husky, with a Red Wolf somewhere in the woodpile, according to three people who know of such things. An absolute sweetheart.

But...I know that not everybody is a hard-core dog lover like I am...but I still feel that shooting a man's dog over simple, high-spirited dog mischief isn't the move that a man should make...at least not before trying to work it out with me.

General Geoff
December 29, 2007, 01:58 PM
I don't think you understand. These boys killed my dog.

karrotx
December 29, 2007, 02:00 PM
If you kick my dog, I'll be breaking both your arms.

If you were to shoot my dog? I'm not sure, I'm really not sure.

I hope to never find out.

Gunfighter123
December 29, 2007, 02:03 PM
Well -- an eye for a eye !!! Or maybe two eyes for a eye ?? On my property --- I'd swear that after he shot my dog -- the gun was pointed at me right before I had to use deadly force -- end of story
GF123

Animal Mother
December 29, 2007, 02:07 PM
There would be a day of reckoning, I'm afraid.

+1

QFT

Just Jim
December 29, 2007, 02:09 PM
It really depends on the circumstances. There are ways a man could get himself shot if he hurt my dog Sam. Since my dog is on a leash, should a man draw his gun to kill my dog I will draw my gun and shoot to defend my life and property.

Should Sam go crazy and start biting people then I would kill Sam myself.

jj

1911Tuner
December 29, 2007, 02:11 PM
growled at them or something of that sort.

Dogs often growl or even snarl as a response to being scolded, or even caught doing something that they know they shouldn't be doing. I have two big male Collies that do it, even with me. It's easy to mistake a nervous dog for a threatening dog...especially if you don't know the dog, and most especially if you don't understand dog body language. Of course, a scared dog is a potentially dangerous dog...even one that's not aggressive or vicious under normal circumstances. It's best to leave him an exit. Make even the best dog nervous...corner him...and you could create a problem that you won't believe if he's as much as 40 pounds.

Most of the time, altercations between people and dogs are at least 50/50 events. All dogs will bite if you push the right buttons...and if you make him feel that the only way out of a corner is through you...well...He's ya Huckleberry.

Easy to spot the dog lovers on a thread like this. :cool:

I have 14 dogs here...and consider them all as "My Furry Children."

Silvanus
December 29, 2007, 02:12 PM
I can't carry a firearm here, but I don't think I would shoot the person. I don't want to go to prison. But I would beat the $h*t out of the killer.

Biker
December 29, 2007, 02:12 PM
I agreed to abide by certain rules when I signed up to hang at the THR.

I keep my word to the best of my ability.

If someone needlessly killed my dog, there would be consequences and reprocussions. That's all I can say.

Biker

GeezerwithGuns
December 29, 2007, 02:13 PM
Many years ago I had a confrontation with a rancher on an adjacent property who believed that my dog was chasing his livestock and creating havoc. I knew for sure that it was not my dog because she was with me on a hunting trip when the alleged act took place. Nevertheless, he said he would come on my place and "put a bullet" in my dog.

All I said to him, after providing my assurances that I was positive that my Lab was not guilty was: "I'm sure you love your horse just as much as I love my dog - don't you?"

Luckily, the situation did not escalate. The rancher shortly moved his stock somewhere else (the land was rented) and that was the last I heard of it. 35 years ago, I was young and pretty hot-headed. Don't know what I'd have done, but there certainly would be retaliation of some kind.

average_shooter
December 29, 2007, 02:14 PM
How about this; if I'm out with my dog, or not, and someone pulls a gun not in self defense or on a shooting range, I'd probably draw and move to the nearest cover and be there with 1911Tuner as far as "there'd probably be a gunfight."

shadowalker
December 29, 2007, 02:20 PM
It kind of depends on the situation, having someone enter your property and shoot your dog for no reason is different than coming home and finding him shot.

If a person entered my property without being provoked, and shot my dog I'd view him as an unpredictable and immediate deadly threat.

eliphalet
December 29, 2007, 02:23 PM
No to all questions without a much deeper explanation I do believe, and surely some of the responses are written in haste and not reality or we have some people that seriously need to rethink the value of human life on this board.

tasco 74
December 29, 2007, 02:26 PM
i like dogs and all animals but having said that it depends on the situation... i was casting bullets in my garage one evening a couple of yeasrs ago when i heard a sound and sensed something was with me.. i turned an looked toward the door a there stood two of biggest d^nm dogs i'd ever seen.. they were growling at me and i was cornered unarmed.. picked up a fence post and made my move so they decided on a different target... my neighbors little puppy that tied to a pole in their yard so she got mauled.. i was pi$$ed!! told my wife get my revolver and call the sherriff... when he showed up just a few minutes later i was in my garage door with my model 27 in hand... i told him about it and said if they come back here i'm takin em out! he asked did they scare me? i replied he!! yes they scared me! he go ahead and take em out then.... they didn't come back but after some research i found out where they came from.. i went to the door of the owners house and this chic came to the door so i told her what had happened and if they came back i'm takin em out.. she got all indignant and said you can't kill my dogs.. i said yes i can... after a couple exchanges of the same phrase she said are you threatening me? i said nope. she said your threatening me! i said calmly no i'm not i'm just trying to tell ya what's going to happen.. they come back my house they'll be laying in a pile... about that time her black boyfriend came around the corner and said if you have problems with my dogs you call the cops... i said i've done that now i'm telling you... and i walked off the porch and i never saw those bull mastiffs running loose again... we have a leash law in this town so dogs aren't supposed to run loose... these dogs were a menace to me and other animals.. like i said i like dogs and feel sorry for them when they are tied up in back of a place and no one pays much attention to them...

average_shooter
December 29, 2007, 02:27 PM
Sorry, but I value my personal human life over that of someone threatening me with deadly force. If I am "reasonably in immediate fear of death or great bodily harm," with no escape, where "no lesser force will do" to resolve the situation, then I'm legally (and as far as I see it, morally) justified to defend myself.

dogrunner
December 29, 2007, 02:28 PM
IF someone shot one of my dogs in front of me and IF that someone had a firearm and did not lower it, or IF that someone turned to face me in a ready position I would without hesitation DROP that person.

Otherwise, I would damned sure obtain sufficient ID to pursue a civil and criminal action against that person.

TCB in TN
December 29, 2007, 02:29 PM
After having grown up on a farm, I know the damage that unrestrained dogs can cause. I have had quite a lot of property damage caused by dogs, and honestly in my opinion that by itself is not enough to cause me to shoot someone else's dog. A loss of livestock is a different story, I usually attempt to catch the dog and determine who's it is. I have always given the individual the chance to make it right, and to make sure it never happens again. I have also been attacked by 1 dog, which did NOT survive the encounter.

Now if the shoe was on the other foot then I would hope to be given the same consideration, but if someone came into my yard, and shot my dog, then there would certainly be, as Biker said, consequences and reprocussions.

Were I out walking my dog on a leash and he/she was shot with me holding it, well I would likely consider that an attack on my person and would defend myself.

kwelz
December 29, 2007, 02:32 PM
Not a dog owner but if anyone harmed one of my cats then it would get ugly.

cambeul41
December 29, 2007, 02:33 PM
some people ... seriously need to rethink the value of human life on this board.

Uh, which human life? Oh! The ones on this board. Gotcha!

NGIB
December 29, 2007, 02:35 PM
My dog is as much a part of my family as my wife and kids. I'm afraid I'd be none to happy and there would certainly be consequences for the shooter. What these would be I'm unclear; however, suffice to say they would not be having a good day...

Clipper
December 29, 2007, 02:35 PM
Chest-beaters make my backside sore...Anyone who would kill a person over a dog deserves what he gets, which will likely be a long stretch in the graybar hotel. There are other ways to deal with someone who kills a leashed dog that don't involve me with jail time. That said, I love my dog too, but as to loose dogs, I have a leash law that has no wiggle room, which I agree with, too. She gets loose, not only am I responsible for anything she does, but I have no recourse if she doesn't come back from a foray, innocent or otherwise, across someone else's property. This is as it should be. If I don't care enough about my dog to have it under control at all times, I don't deserve to have it. The only exceptions to the leash law here is while hunting, and even then, if a hunting dog runs off, it's in danger. I have no sympathy for loose dogs or their owners after losing stock to loose pets.

And public parks are no place to run loose dogs either. There are lots of prople who don't care for dogs, and I can respect that. It's usually illegal anyway. I don't care how harmless you think your mutt is, it runs at me in anything I consider a threatening manner (and yes, I know the difference), and it comes within 10 feet of me, it's gone, and believe me, I'm gonna be PO'd enough to be ready and waiting for anything the owner tries to run on me...

Ragnar Danneskjold
December 29, 2007, 02:37 PM
Pulling a gun in my presence is going to cause me to pull mine. Firing a gun in my presence is going to cause me to fire mine at the shooter. (not at a range or by an LEO of course)

OP, are you asking if I witnessed the killing right then, would I draw and fire right then as well? Or are you asking if the dog killing happened in the past(anywhere from 5 minutes- beyond), would I still feel my life is threatened and use my weapon?

FLORIDA KEVIN
December 29, 2007, 02:40 PM
my dog is a better person than i am ! and I care more for her than for most people ! i am afraid it would end in a temp insanity plea! As far as shooting probably not ! i want to have the satisfaction of hearing the bones break !Kevin

there is a big difference between someone shooting a dog that is engaged in chasing or attacking other people or animals,and shooting a dog for tresspassing ! I live in a city where there are leash laws also and my Jack Russel is only off the leash in our home ,backyard or at a dogpark ! while she is not usually aggresive she will chase anything that runs ! She even jumped off a seawall after a school of fish that swam by "her yard " i would hope i never have to find out what would happen but a 16 lb dog is a lot less of a threat than a 100 lb dog ! i f she were shot attacking a person that would be different ! But if someone killed or injured her maliciously !! It would not be pretty !

Just Jim
December 29, 2007, 02:41 PM
No to all questions without a much deeper explanation I do believe, and surely some of the responses are written in haste and not reality or we have some people that seriously need to rethink the value of human life on this board.

I am certian that I posted "it depends on the circumstances". The person who needs to determin the value of human life is the one who threatens me or my property.

jj

wheelgunslinger
December 29, 2007, 02:42 PM
I'm a big fan of sight hounds. You know, like whippets, greyhounds, Irish Wolfhounds, etc.

They see something they want to chase and they run after it. Most times you can't stop them.

However, if they were running someone's livestock, deer, or someone's expensive big stupid horse/pony, I'd accept that they had to kill my dog. It's my job to keep my pets on my own turf and keep them from bothering other people.

However, without a good reason or immediate threat, I'd be pretty sour about someone killing my dog.
But, I'd wait for my day in court before I started slinging lead.

People are generally pretty stupid and someone who would come to your home and kill your dog without any solid proof probably has plenty in their life I could find out and drag into the daylight. Compared to the trouble a dog caused them, dragging their personal issues into daylight would be pretty big. And, they would likely consider what they did to my dog one of their bigger mistakes in life before I was done with them in court. Or in the press (I'm a journalist), with their wife/lover, at their job, or in their private affairs.

Bullets? No need to be in a hurry to shoot someone. I never hit someone where it doesn't hurt, if I need to hit someone.

DropOut
December 29, 2007, 02:44 PM
How about turning the other cheek?

I love my animals and have had the misfortune of having to put some down - but as far as I see it a dog is a dog and is nowhere near equivalent to fragile human life. Granted, whoever would do such a thing is a total jerk, but my philosophy of dealing with things is pretty much biblical. Basically pray for him and hope God changes him.

I don't want to sound like I'm preaching at anybody, but that's how I would like to think I'd deal with the situation.

mekender
December 29, 2007, 02:49 PM
a person drawing and firing at a pet in my presence immediately shows me that they do not care about the normal social stigmas against killing pets... therefore i would have to assume that they were also willing to break other stigmas, like the ones against robbery, assault, and murder... so they would be an immediate, clear and present threat against my own life at that point

SomeKid
December 29, 2007, 02:51 PM
Anyone who would kill a person over a dog deserves what he gets, which will likely be a long stretch in the graybar hotel.

Maybe. But if the deceased was the trouble maker, and the defendant was the one whose dog had been maliciously killed? They would sleep at home that night if I were on the jury.

SteyrAUG
December 29, 2007, 02:52 PM
Let's just say I value the lives of my dogs over a lot of humans.

Human life is not automatically of value.

SteyrAUG
December 29, 2007, 02:53 PM
Anyone who would kill a person over a dog deserves what he gets, which will likely be a long stretch in the graybar hotel.

Anyone who would kill my dogs without justification deserves what I do to them.

There is a real easy way to not get shot by me, don't kill my dogs.

Isn't that simple enough?

lysander
December 29, 2007, 03:12 PM
Clipper,

And public parks are no place to run loose dogs either. There are lots of prople who don't care for dogs, and I can respect that. It's usually illegal anyway. I don't care how harmless you think your mutt is, it runs at me in anything I consider a threatening manner (and yes, I know the difference), and it comes within 10 feet of me, it's gone, and believe me, I'm gonna be PO'd enough to be ready and waiting for anything the owner tries to run on me...

The course of action I think you are suggesting as a possibility above (along with other facts) got Harold Fish 10 years.

Moving on,

To my understanding the OP's original hypothetical makes the presence of the dog irrelevant. Per the OP, we have a person on or near your property who has drawn a gun and opened fire, killing your dog. Would it be unreasonable for you to assume that the shooter might go after you next? Is a dog worth killing another person over? Would you have the time to debate these questions? Probably not.

It would appear that the legal question coming out of this hypothetical would be something akin to whether or not the actions of the shooter created an objectively reasonable fear of imminent deadly harm in the mind of the CCW holder. YMMV...I am not a lawyer.

That being said, I love my dog unconditionally...but I realize that she is 65 pounds of muscle and teeth...and though she is a galoot of the highest order...not everyone who meets her for the first time knows her like I do.

In short, control your animals if you care about them...don't put yourself in situations where your crazed neighbor is killing your dog on your front lawn.

Finally, given some of the other discussions that have appeared on THR recently about how your internet banter might be used against you in a court of law by aggressive prosecutors...I simply cannot understand why people continue to post emotional and/or pseudo-tough comments about how they would respond to such a scenario.

All life is valuable....human, dog or miscreant.

average_shooter
December 29, 2007, 03:18 PM
I think a see some misinterpretations here.

I took the original question to be what would I do if I were next to my dog, doing nothing illegal, when someone walks up, pulls a gun, and shoots my dog. Someone walks up to me and pulls a gun, I'll gladly return the gesture.

Strays and situations where the owner is not immediately present are obviously different.

Noxx
December 29, 2007, 03:19 PM
Well most of you know how I feel about my pups already, caught em snugglin' on their ma just the other morning...

http://www.noxxshouse.com/pics/pups2.jpg

As you can see, they're family to me, all I really say is +1 to a lot of what's been said before.

Quaamik
December 29, 2007, 03:20 PM
It has nothing what so ever to do with the fact it's a dog.

If I'm walking my dog and someone pulls a gun out and points it in my general direction ..... I'm not waiting to find out whether he wants to shoot me or the dog. It's a lethal threat to me and the response will be that expected to a lethal threat.

If the dog is off leash and on my property, then the dog is in my fenced backyard. The one my child plays in. The one where the dog happens to act as an early warning system for intruders. In short, the perpetrator is on my property activly engaged in disabeling my familys protection with a lethal weapon. The response would be appropriate for a lethal attack on my family.

If the dog is off leash and off my property, when I was within sight and (obviously) activly engaged in retreving said dog, I'd retreat if possible and the person didn't seem a threat to others (including me), call 911, likely sue the person, and be really sad.

If the dog was off leash and off property, and I was not within sight, I'd be sad and bury it. While I know that my dog is lovable and wouldn't hurt anyone not attacking my family, I cannot expect someone else to know that.

lysander
December 29, 2007, 03:23 PM
Noxx,

Given the yellow eyes..those two are obviously in league with some vile evil force. :D I would be careful around them. ;)

Pigspitter
December 29, 2007, 03:24 PM
I'm not sure what I would do if someone shot my dog. However, there are some mornings where I would thank them if they shot my cat. JK

M2 Carbine
December 29, 2007, 03:27 PM
If someone killed your dog...?

If my pet gives someone a good reason to kill them, I wouldn't say a word.

But if someone killed one of my pets without justification?
Pay back would be hell.

Noxx
December 29, 2007, 03:32 PM
Noxx,

Given the yellow eyes..those two are obviously in league with some vile evil force. I would be careful around them.

Sadly the "red-eye" setting on the camera doesn't do much for alleviating the flash reflection with animals. If they're in league with anyone it's Milk-Bone

Vern Humphrey
December 29, 2007, 03:35 PM
We had a case like that here in Stone County, Arkansas. There was a couple calling themselves "Dewberry." They were the neighbors from Hell. They stole, quarreled with neighbors, shot near people to intimidate them, and so on. They kept big dogs and did nothing to control them.

A neighbor, a retired doctor, kept sheep (actually, they belonged to his daughter.) The dogs killed sheep -- a total of 62 of them.

Law enforcement would do nothing about it -- to complaints about shooting, they would say, "If we didn't see him do it, there's nothing we can do." To complaints about sheep killing, they would say, "That's a civil matter." And of course the Dewberrys, who had no property, were judgement-proof.

One day Dewberry's dogs were after Graves' daughter's sheep. Graves drove down the county road to a spot where he could get a clear shot at the dogs -- perfectly legal to shoot attacking dogs -- and opened fire.

Dewberry came out with his harridan of a wife behind him, egging him on, and fired at Graves with a .44 Magnum. Graves returned the favor with a .30-30. The bullet passed through Dewberry, killing him, and hit Dewberry's wife, crippling her.

Investigation turned up the fact that both "Dewberrys" were federal fugitives -- something that would have come to light if the very first complaints against them had been taken serously.

Graves has never been charged and never will be -- although he is out some serious legal expenses.

1911Tuner
December 29, 2007, 03:38 PM
those two are obviously in league with some vile evil force. I would be careful around them.

I agree! I can tell that them are a couple of vicious hombres right there. Yessir. A pair of killers if I ever did see any. :D

I can sympathize with Biker. He's become smitten. Kelie accuses me of havin' two blue-eyed blond girlfriends.

And...Since the thread has drifted a mite...and before we get told to get it back on track...here they are. Diamond and Roxy the Wolf lady in the order of appearance.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e243/1911Tuner/BoredDinah-1.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e243/1911Tuner/Roxy1.jpg

Okay! Back on topic!

Killing a human being in retaliation for killing a dog without a perceived threat toward the owner will very likely get you a long stretch in the pen...but men have died for less. Let's take a breath before we presume that there would be no consequences for killing somebody's dog unless it's in self-defense.

Ragnar Danneskjold
December 29, 2007, 03:45 PM
I agree with Quaamik. I'll fire at someone who I honestly think is a threat to me or other humans. And watching someone discharge a firearm in public is a good reason to think they are a threat. BUT I will not do any sort of revenge killing over an animal. To me, it's entirely about the discharge of a firearm in public in my presence, and has really nothing to do with it being about a dog.

I use my weapon to protect people. Not dogs, and not for revenge.

Hoppy590
December 29, 2007, 03:47 PM
im gunna have to say shooting a dog in a public place is going to constitute irrational hostility in my eyes, and should i be standing there and you draw a gun i will assume you hold the same irrational hostility towards people.

1911Tuner
December 29, 2007, 03:51 PM
Another point worth mention is that...although the courts view a dog as a dog...property if you will, and will hear a civil case based on that...many people consider their dogs not as mere animals or property...but as bona-fide members of the family, much like their children, and conversations that center around somebody killing our dogs can evoke much the same emotional response as the of mention harming our kids.

hexidismal
December 29, 2007, 03:51 PM
What's with all the dog shooting threads on THR lately ?

stevereno1
December 29, 2007, 03:52 PM
I am not going to leave my family alone, and go to prison over ANY dog. Not for Lassie, or even scooby doo. I would draw my weapon and order them to drop their weapon. If they refused or started to point their weapon at me, then it's no longer about a dog.

phaed
December 29, 2007, 03:58 PM
depends on the circumstances. i.e. location, if dog was on a leash, what the dog was doing, etc.

anything on my property, and i'd be in fear of my own life from the attacker. on the other guy's property, he'd have the right, regardless. in neutral territory, on a leash, i'd be in fear of my own life from the guy with a gun. in neutral territory, no leash, it would depend on the dog's training and actions.

dogs are great, but they are also stupid. it's our job to protect them and not let them get into situations that could endanger them.

Ragnar Danneskjold
December 29, 2007, 03:58 PM
Good point Steven. All of you who say that you're ready to shed human blood over a dog, I hope you don't have families. Do you honestly think your wife or kids are going to be A OK with you spending years away from them in prison because of this? It's pretty much you choosing your dog over your family. You think it's OK to leave them without a dad or husband just for revenge? How would you like your wife to explain to your son why he didn't have a dad from age 7-17 because you would rather act on your emotional connection to an animal than stay with your kids and be their dad?

innerpiece
December 29, 2007, 03:59 PM
i think im on the same page as the majority here..

I live out in the woods..
so if someone was to enter my property and shoot my dog, the only way I could precieve that act, is as an intentional threat. there would be NO accident about it if they were shot by an intruder, so I would react accordingly and eliminate the threat.

ip.

RLsnow
December 29, 2007, 03:59 PM
while i dont have a gun i wouldnt be very happy, and if someone killed my dog outside here on the lawn...i dont know what i would do, there would be yelling and quite possibly some violence...

im sure it would prove a sad experience for all parties involved...

Tom Nichols
December 29, 2007, 04:11 PM
Get real guys, a gunfight?

I'd be pissed off as any of you if someone shot my dog. I also own over 40 weapons and am a fairly good shot.

BUT... you'd get in a gunfight and take the chance of ending up in jail for years, away from your family, loved ones, business, personal freedoms... and any other dogs you might own?

You can support your gunfight with the Constitution, laws on the books, property rights, self-defense, right is right, and blah blah blah, but the fact is, in today's world where OJ gets off and an old bag gets $8,000,000 for spilling hot coffee in her lap, you'll end up in the slam and become an ass-sandwich for some tattooed ape named Sergio. Or you might end up luckier and be shot dead by the other dude who is moronic and crazy enough to have shot your dog for no reason in the first place. Or maybe you'd live in a wheelchair for the rest of your life drooling on yourself and taking meals through a tube. Then your family is essentially dead as they spend every penny they'll ever have taking care of you.

Personally, I'd stand down and then catch him in a dark alley and give him a one-way ticket to hell courtesy of something a little less obvious.

But a gunfight?

If so, I know of a lottery that pays out $10,000,000, and tickets cost $20,000,000. How many do ya want? :)

innerpiece
December 29, 2007, 04:29 PM
yes tom, I would use whatever force needed to eliminate a deadly threat, that took the time and premeditation to trek my long driveway, and commit a brutal act of violence in my yard, near my children..

call me crazy, but if somone had the intent to do that, Im not too willing to offer them much opportunity to commit the next act.

mabey we arent all in the same living situation, mabey we arent all cut from the same cloth..

shure Im scared of prison time, but Im more scared of NOT taking action to protect my family from somone with harmfull intent, shootin in the proximity of the ones I love..

my .02

ip.

hankdatank1362
December 29, 2007, 04:34 PM
I figured this thread would invoke some serious responses.


I was curious, because I had to take my dog to the vet today. It had some fairly serious health problems. I really couldn't afford to, but I did it anyway. It was then that I realize just how much my dog means to me.


Anyway, to any questions I saw that might have been directed at me, I originally meant if you saw someone shoot your dog right there in front of you, on your land or leashed in the street, how you would respond. If it's on someone else's property, then obviously the scenario changes. If the your dog was attacking them, then obviously the scenario changes again. If the shooting occured 30 seconds ago, then obviously the scenario changes as yopu are not in fear of imminent death or great bodily harm.


But... and most importantly, do you think the use of deadly force would be justifiable in a situation like I've described? Do you think that you would be sleeping in your bed that night, or pulling some time?

(I agree on the "payback in a dark alley sometime in the future," but that's not THR and that's not really what I'm getting at.)

mossberg
December 29, 2007, 04:36 PM
My shih tzu weighs five pounds, and i can't see anyone ever hurting her. She lives in the house, and everyone likes her. Not very threatening looking.

cleardiddion
December 29, 2007, 04:43 PM
Like what mossberg said, my carin terrier is mostly an indoor dog who makes an occasional foray outside. The only real way that someone could shoot my dog would be to do it in my home and as we all know that wouldn't go so well.

Tom Nichols
December 29, 2007, 04:44 PM
Fine for you IP, and in those circumstances you’d probably be justified.

BUT the original post involves a neighbor who shoots your dog in your yard for no good reason – nothing more.

Nothing about the woods, living in isolation, a long driveway, or kids in the yard.

I guess to make a point we could also assume this guy went on national TV to broadcast his premeditated intentions, escaped from death row, hijacked a plane, flew to your house and shot your dog as children played with it. BUT the post doesn’t mention any of that.

You can read anything you want into the original post but as it now reads I’ll stick with my way.

Hoppy590
December 29, 2007, 04:48 PM
soo many of you miss the point. it isnt that the dog is shot. its a question if some one shooting your dog produces reasonable threat to you.

i mean take the dog out of it, and theres a man standing there with a gun. who just shot the ground next to you. is that reasonable threat?

i certainly say so.

Gunnerpalace
December 29, 2007, 04:53 PM
taurusowner, is right Iam walking my pet and somebody pulls that's an alarm right there, that being said my pets are indoor ones that live in the basement, so if a ner-do-well goes down there and kills them he has already committed enough felonies for me to (Castle Doctrine State) defend myself should it come to that or waylay him with my stock and wait for the cops (I don't like the idea of spending time in a jail).

1911Tuner
December 29, 2007, 04:57 PM
BUT the original post involves a neighbor who shoots your dog in your yard for no good reason – nothing more.

And Hoppy beat me to the draw with:

soo many of you miss the point. it isnt that the dog is shot. its a question if some one shooting your dog produces reasonable threat to you.


Taking the dog out of the equation leaves a man in a charged mental/emotional state standing there with a gun...on my property. He's just met the three criteria for a justifiable lethal response. All it takes from that point is a twitch, other than to let the gun drop to the ground.

Put the dog back in. A man walks onto my property...or approaches me anywhere and opens up on the dog, I...as a reasonable man...may assume that I'm to be his next target of opportunity. If I wait to see what his intentions are, I may wait a split second too long...and my family gets to bury me and our dog on the same day.

And, yes. If someone came onto my property with a gun with the verbal intention of shooting said dog...I would defend the dog. Once the situation becomes defused...if it could be done without firing a shot...and we can determine why he came to kill my dog...we can decide what to do about it.

But, walk up to me...on or off my property, and start shooting a dog or a cat or a mouse...you can expect me to react accordingly.

Walter W.
December 29, 2007, 05:08 PM
If there was some breed like a bullmastiff or a rottweiler (not a lazy fat poodle), not on a leash, it set itself up like it's going to jump on me and was growling and the owner wouldn't do anything about it and restrain their dog, I would shoot the dog with pepperspray. If the human started something, possibly spray the owner as well. I would inform the owner to leash their dog and that I will kill their dog if it happens again. I would also let them know that I will shoot them too if they get in the way after it prepares to attack me. If you live somewhere there are leash laws and the owner is responsible it would probably never come to that.

Certain dogs can be very aggressive and rip your face off. I do think that if a dog owner is going to have a breed that is capable of some serious damage to someone and doesn't properly restrain it, they should be locked up and have their dog taken away. Heres a report about domesticated pitbulls killing their owner
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/12/national/main694926.shtml

Let's say someones dog is being aggressive and threatening towards you, a grown man/woman with a handgun, and they don't do anything to restrain their dog? What if you do nothing and the owner continues to let it roam freely and it comes up on a young child? It will most likely kill that child because they are so tiny. Who cares what a dog owner thinks about a dog when it is endangering the lives of other humans? The people could be crack dealers, hobos, tutes, an 80 year old grandma, or some children that the owner is putting in danger. You don't know where the dog may go off to next.

So don't have your dangerous dog going around terrifying people and it won't get shot. If someone shoots it, shoot them until they drop.

lysander
December 29, 2007, 05:08 PM
But... and most importantly, do you think the use of deadly force would be justifiable in a situation like I've described? Do you think that you would be sleeping in your bed that night, or pulling some time?

I don't think anyone can answer your question with certainty. I'm inclined to believe that it would not be objectively unreasonable for someone to be in fear of imminent deadly harm if they were standing in their front yard and a stranger walked up and shot their dog in front of them.

But I'm not a prosecutor, I'm not a judge, I'm not a legal scholar...and I won't be on your jury panel.

The trick is that you won't justify the shooting because your dog was killed...but rather because YOU felt that YOU were facing imminent deadly harm, because someone just drew down and killed your dog in front of you.

On a side note...and at risk of my politics peeking out...

an old bag gets $8,000,000 for spilling hot coffee in her lap

The "old bag" was awarded $200K in compensatory damages (reduced to $160K because the jury found her 20% at fault) and $2.7 million in punitive damages...because McDonald's acted recklessly, callously and willfully (in the judge's words). The punitive damages were reduced by the judge to $480K. In the end...the "old bag" settled out of court for what is surmised to be far less than the $640K her judgment called for. Just remember...tort reform isn't about reform, as reform implies a) that something needs fixing and b) the solution being offered is a progressive one... tort reform is about restricting the legal remedies available to individuals vis-a-vis institutional interests. (i.e. corporations and insurance carriers)

Back to the topic at hand:

As with all things...the potential response of the law enforcement system to the OP's hypothetical would be determined by the politics and law of the jurisdiction, the facts of the incident and ultimately, if it went to trial, the perceptions and biases of the jury panel.

average_shooter
December 29, 2007, 05:21 PM
Certain dogs can be very aggressive and rip your face off. I do think that if a dog owner is going to have a breed that is capable of some serious damage to someone and doesn't properly restrain it, they should be locked up and have their dog taken away.

I'd just like to say that I highly doubt that breed has as much to do with aggression as upraising and how others act around the dog. Our family dog averages 65 pounds lately, topped out at 75 when he was younger and more active. Never been fat, it was 75 pounds of boxer/lab mix.

One time we took him to the vet on a busy day and he was checked out by an interning vet. She was a pretty small lady as I recall and openly said "I don't like big dogs" when she saw our dog. That appointment did not go well at all. The vet was nervous, it got the technicians nervous, it got me nervous, and it got the dog nervous enough to take a snip at the vet when she touched him unexpectedly.

At each visit the vets fill out charts and info cards that get put in the file. This intern put "DANGEROUS" all over his cards that day. The next time we went in we saw the regular vet, an old guy who started his vet career making house calls for horses and cows. He looked at the cards with all the red lettering, looked at the dog, and broke out laughing. I never saw that intern there again.

Our dog has spent many many hours at the vet this past year battling cancer. Yes, he is enough like family that we are treating his cancer. All the doctors and techs at the vet love him, he's one of the sweetest and gentlest dogs they've had.

brentn
December 29, 2007, 05:28 PM
If we were allowed to carry up here, and I was in my yard enjoying the sun and my nieghbor came into my yard, screaming waving a gun stammering about my dog. I would defenitly pull my weapon out and tell him to drop it, even if I knew that he was only after my dog. You don't come onto my property waiving a gun around, regardless of who the victim is going to be, my stereo because its too loud, or my dog.

If my dog was killed because my neighbor is crazy, and I wasn't home and came back finding my dog shot in the head, I would be pretty damn devistated... He's so innocent and doesn't stir up any trouble, just want's some love and some ass kills him... First I'd call the cops, and then I'd press charges, but I would not involve any of my firearms into the incident.

Third case scenario is the same as above, but the police can't do anything about it. The next day I would defenitly go over to his door (knowing 100% that it was him of course) ring the door bell and probably go in fists swinging. I would be charged with assault most likely, but I'd have to do something...

brentn
December 29, 2007, 05:31 PM
Heh.. I was just thinking. If the cops couldn't do anything about scenario 3, it would be even BETTER to make a giant sign saying that "my neighbor killed my dog with a ____ gun" I would show the cutest picture of my dog, and I would show a picture of the dogs dead body, and a picture of my neighbor! Right on my fence right on the corner of the intersection. Media would love it, I would love it, and everyone that walks by would hate my nieghbor. I'm sure they would do things to him in which I wouldn't have to lift a finger.

MikeS63301
December 29, 2007, 05:33 PM
I've had two dogs killed in past years. The first was poisoned by a guy who was a problem in the area where I lived at the time. I had a "come to Jesus meeting" with him about a month after it happened and he moved about 3 days later. The guy just left.

The second was shot by a neighbor (at my cousin's rural property) while he was just wandering around in the guy's front yard. The sheriff wouldn't do anything about it because my dog was out of the run and running loose. But at no time was shooting the guy ever on my mind. My cousin returned the favor a couple years later.

If someone were to pull a gun while I was walking my dog, I would interpret that as an attack on me and act accordingly.

Deanimator
December 29, 2007, 05:36 PM
I believe in one law for all.

If somebody's dog presented a credible, immediate threat to me, I'd shoot it.

I can't read the minds of people, much less non-human animals. I can only go by reasonable interpretation of the conditions on the ground.

To hold somebody else to a different standard when faced with the same situation is both dishonest and hypocritical.

I demand that others keep their animals under control. I can hardly exempt myself from that requirement. I can hardly demand a different result if I do.

Treo
December 29, 2007, 05:37 PM
In the situation given here, the guy starts shooting W/in 20 yards of me, he's already killed my dog & I don't know who he is or why? I don't think it would be optional. I think the circumstance would dictate that I return fire. / tweaking the given situation to fit me my dogs never leave my property ( excepting vet visits) if someone shot my dog on my property, I still don't see that I have a choice, imminent danger, defcon 0 return fire.

Roswell 1847
December 29, 2007, 05:37 PM
Well I've given it some thought and my two best Bearhounds were/are so scary that I can see why someone would shoot them out of blind fear.

One had been shot in the shoulder by a small caliber pistol according to the vet, I'd found him lying on his side with the shoulder pressed to the ground one morning. According to the X-rays the bullet had bounced of the upper foreleg bone. The Vet was amazed by the size of that Dogs bones. He said they were three times thicker and more than a dozen times stronger than the bone structure of any dog he'd ever seen.
That is the Dog that ate a Cow's spinal column in two sittings chewing the vertabrae like popcorn. He was half Pitbull and Half Plot, the Plot is raised to track down predators and is the most agressive of all hunting dogs. I'd seen him toss a full grown German Shepard like a rag doll while standing on another to hold it down while a third crawled away unable to use its hind legs.

The dog I have now, The other died of old age, is just as big and perhaps heavier. He's a wuss compared to the other but he looks like the prehistoric "Dire Wolf" and could kill a man with one bite if he was so inclined.

If a stranger came on my property and shot one of my dogs I'd assume he did so because he came there with evil intent towards me or mine and wanted to eliminate the guard dog first. In that case I would shoot to kill.

SteyrAUG
December 29, 2007, 05:48 PM
All of you who say that you're ready to shed human blood over a dog, I hope you don't have families. Do you honestly think your wife or kids are going to be A OK with you spending years away from them in prison because of this?

Anyone who would shoot my dog without justification is presenting a viable threat to me and will be shot accordingly. And in Florida you are perfectly within your rights to use deadly force in such a situation. You won't be arrested or prosecuted.

Macpherson
December 29, 2007, 06:40 PM
I'm not a dog person, but if a stranger points a gun at any of my pets (or property), I would consider myself to be in danger and would respond accordingly. I would not shoot someone over property but I have no way of knowing where his shots are going to go and would certainly not wait to find out, if he's shooting near me, I'm considering the shots to AT me and will return fire.

GD
December 29, 2007, 06:58 PM
My neighbor shot my $450 Malamute. My dog deserved it. The dog killed two of his sheep and was attempting to kill a third one.

average_shooter
December 29, 2007, 07:02 PM
I think some people here are confusing what you would do if your dog was on someone else's property or attacking someone (or you were being attacked by a dog), versus what would you do if you were walking your dog and you were attacked by another person...

Pindem
December 29, 2007, 07:29 PM
I don't normally respond to threads, just read and read. For some reason I thought I would add a little.
I have 3 little dogs, the heaviest weighs 15 pound, the other two are under 8 pounds each. The smallest one is my service animal.
I can absolutely say that without a doubt, if someone shot my little one while I was near it, I would shoot to kill that person. (she only leaves my side to go into the securely fenced back yard to go potty).
She would either be on a 6 foot leash or in the carrier I wear on my chest. Someone shoots that close to me I can only assume they missed me.
Also a dog/animal can sometimes be more than just a pet. It can actually be a lifesaver/helpmate.
Ok, there are my thoughts. I hope I put them so they can be easily understood. :)

Pindem

cassandrasdaddy
December 29, 2007, 07:41 PM
if someone shot one of mine in my yard and it was someone that knew me they would definitly shoot me first and i include my family and friends. had a drunk friend shoot one of mine once stupid gun play i came very near killing him but didn't and today am glad i didn't

M2 Carbine
December 29, 2007, 07:46 PM
I originally meant if you saw someone shoot your dog right there in front of you, on your land

That's a no brainier.

Trespasser with a gun and shoots my dog.
I would shoot them.............several times.

Officers'Wife
December 29, 2007, 07:50 PM
My reaction would depend on which dog was killed and the circumstances. If the 'outdoor' animal was 'running at large' as defined by the statute there wouldn't be much I could do save admit responsibility and pay the fine.

However, if it were the 'indoor' dog... Since Moody (the dog) is usually within five feet of my two year old at any one time I could only pray the killer had given his soul to Jesus because his body would be threatening my kid. Not a situation I answer with calm reflection.

Selena

jaholder1971
December 29, 2007, 07:58 PM
This whole thread is an emotional trap and too vague to actually be worth offering comment.

fearless leader
December 29, 2007, 08:01 PM
In Florida, I would have them prosicuted for cruelty to animals, a 3rd degree felony if the dog dies.

Officers'Wife
December 29, 2007, 08:05 PM
Hi Drop out,

How about turning the other cheek?

One of the few times my priest talked to my Uncle Lee he mentioned that Jesus said we should turn the other cheek. He had no answer when my uncle asked if Jesus ever said we had to be a fool about it. My Uncle then went on to point out the killings that King David committed, and God Himself said David was a man after His own heart.

Selena

Geno
December 29, 2007, 08:30 PM
Now I know that you all loved Ol' Yeller and all, but we have to remember it's society's warp-minded who would judge us. Allow me to share a real-life example.

Years back I was a high school principal in a small town here in Michigan. There was an ex-con who called himself "Doc Blue". He supposedly earned a law degree while in prison. :scrutiny: Well, ol' Doc Blue had been recently released from Jackson Prison. His crime, you all ask? Glad to share.

Ol' Doc Blue went to prison for shooting and killing the man who shot his dog.

Doc2005 (No relation to Doc blue...besides, he's since passed on to a hopefully better place).

RH822
December 29, 2007, 09:15 PM
This whole thread is an emotional trap and too vague to actually be worth offering comment.

Uuuuh...:confused:...but you DID offer a comment.:neener:


My dog is just my hairiest kid and I would protect him the same as one of my not so hairy kids.

RH

Mtnvalley
December 29, 2007, 09:52 PM
Chest-beaters make my backside sore...
...it runs at me in anything I consider a threatening manner (and yes, I know the difference), and it comes within 10 feet of me, it's gone, and believe me, I'm gonna be PO'd enough to be ready and waiting for anything the owner tries to run on me...

Edited to take the High Road, and let the above quotes from the same post speak for themselves.

Surefire
December 29, 2007, 10:14 PM
Let the law deal with the situation.

Its illegal to protect an animal from a human attack, since an animal is just soul-less property according to the law.

I don't agree with this, but its the law. You don't want a felony on your record.

missouri dave
December 29, 2007, 10:25 PM
My ankle biters are no danger to anyone and they are like my children to me. I also am the most vindictive person I know. While I'm not stupid enough to do it in front of witnesses if anyone did hurt them they would most definately suffer dire consequences.

Grizzly Adams
December 29, 2007, 10:25 PM
Anyone who would kill a person over a dog deserves what he gets, which will likely be a long stretch in the graybar hotel.

Depends on where you live. In Alabama you are justified in using deadly force in protecting your property, and dogs are legally considered property. Although to me opinion they are family! Sorry you live in Michigan!!

The OP's clarification was that the dog was under your control on a leash or on your property and an individual came up and shot your dog.

I have three large dogs (75 -100 lbs.) and they stay inside a five foot chain link fence around my house, except when they are out with me on my farm. They do not leave my side, but if they were to leave my property and attacked someone I would shoot them myself. Or if they left the property and someone felt threaten and shot them them I would have to accept it.

On the other hand if someone came onto my property and they approached that individual and he/she pulled a gun then it would be a question as to who would shot who. And as I stated above not only is it justifiable in Alabama but its justifiable in my mind because those dogs are like children to me.

I don't care how harmless you think your mutt is, it runs at me in anything I consider a threatening manner (and yes, I know the difference), and it comes within 10 feet of me, it's gone, and believe me, I'm gonna be PO'd enough to be ready and waiting for anything the owner tries to run on me.

I hope you are referring to public property. If so, I totally agree with you! But like I said, if anyone comes on my property and pulls a gun......

Doc2005

Things have changed a lot since Ole Doc Blues' time. A lot of states now allow you to protect your property!

Grizzly Adams
December 29, 2007, 10:35 PM
Surefire, that may be true where you live!

xjetpilot
December 29, 2007, 10:43 PM
By Biker:

I agreed to abide by certain rules when I signed up to hang at the THR.
I keep my word to the best of my ability. If someone needlessly killed my dog, there would be consequences and repercussions. That's all I can say.

Biker

Well said & I fully agree. :fire:

cassandrasdaddy
December 29, 2007, 10:49 PM
franklin wva 1978 one guy shot his neighbors dog "outa meaness" dog was lose on owners property. next afternoon dog owner put 3 in the 10 ring in front of 20 people. jury refused to indict

Stephen21B
December 29, 2007, 10:54 PM
If someone shot my Dog while she was on a leash the would definately be a gunfight no doubt in my mind.

RoadkingLarry
December 29, 2007, 11:01 PM
If I remember right it was a dog shooting and a retaliatory return of fire that opened the ball at Ruby Ridge and got most of Randy Weaver's family murdered by federal "agents".

In Oklahoma you can kill a dog if it is in the ACT of killing or harassing livestock. Livestock has a pretty broad definition and for sure includes rabbits and chickens, ask me how I know that for certain:).
You can't up and kill strays for busting up your trash, digging up the petunias or taking a dump in your roses. That falls under cruelty to animals and can get you locked up for longer than killing people in some cases.

All that being said, if a person were to walk up and in my presence open fire on an animal on my property all hell is gonna break loose and right now.

zxcvbob
December 29, 2007, 11:40 PM
Anyone who would shoot my dog without justification is presenting a viable threat to me and will be shot accordingly. And in Florida you are perfectly within your rights to use deadly force in such a situation. You won't be arrested or prosecuted.

Let's spin things out of control :evil: What if it's a cop? Enters your fenced yard without a warrant nor "probable cause", then shoots and kills your dog when the dog barks viciously at him?

There was a thread here a couple of weeks ago started with a news article where that's exactly what happened. The cop was cutting across the yard to get to a different house.

The Deer Hunter
December 29, 2007, 11:55 PM
Would you construe that attack on your animal to mean that you might be the attacker's next victim?

Well, yeah. If someone came out of the blue, on my property with a gun and killed my dog in front of me and I was armed you sure as heck should bet I would shoot him.

Treo
December 29, 2007, 11:55 PM
I hope I would have the presence of mind not to return fire on a cop ( I might beat the cop but I wouldn't beat the rap. or the SWAT team ) However if you remember in our given situation the dog is under my immediate controll & not a threat, which indicates to me that the cop recklessly endangered my life ( especially given that my local cops miss 85% their shots ) I bet I ciould find one of those ambulance chaser lawyers that could get me a couple mil outta that P.S. No joke a year or so ago two buffalo escaped from a packing house here in Co Springs CSPD responded 2 of the city's funniest (sic) opened fire W/ AR -15s from something like 30 feet away and only hit the buffalo 15 times or so
I'm talking about a target the size of a VW bug & they couldn't hit it

silverlance
December 30, 2007, 12:18 AM
Well, I reckon I know a little bit about this sort of thing. About a year and a half ago my I was walking my dog on my own block, on a leash. Had my glasses off because I wanted to get a bit of sun on my face. Didn't see the 1/2 Rott 1/2 Pit Mix laying on a neighbor's front lawn. Off leash, owner nowhere in sight. What happened? well, the dog jumped up without warning, bit my dog savagely down his spine, and ripped him out off my hands, giving me a rope burn that exposed my four left fingers down to the edge of connective tissue (a 3rd degree burn, left four holes in my hands where flesh used to be).

My dog tried to fight back but got tangled up in his leash. The owner came out and beat his dog off by kicking it. Old armenian guy. I paid $2000 in ER bills (insurance paid 1900$), 1300$ in vet bills. Thank god, I had bought pet insurance and so only paid $150 of that.

I posted the story up here then, and if I find the thread I'll post it here.

The guy absolutely refused to pay, claiming that my dog was responsible for provoking his dog (my dog is 60lbs; his is nearly 160). He said that he was too old and had no money anyway. Lives in an $800K house that belongs to his daughter.

I have a lawyer friend. Did a little checking up. Turns out I could sue him, and win for sure (I had 3 witnesses). But win what? the guy had no money that was under his name. And I couldn't name the daughter as a defendant. So 18 months later, still no money.

I wanted sooooo badly to go over there one night and shoot his dog. or, as one guy suggested, put cut up springs in ground beef and throw it over the fence. But the truth is, it wasn't the dog's fault. it was the owner's. The dog's nature was to fight, and my dog's too.

So, I let it go. But I learned two things:

1. always be alert, ESPECIALLY if you are walking your dog as he will find trouble if it is around.

2. buy pet insurance!! i cannot stress this enough. anyone with a dog needs to get this. it costs currently i think $11 a month and has paid for itself many times over. let me know if anyone wants information.

oh, and the story? well, as I speak I am working on a flyer that I will post all over the neighborhood. it will show his house, his name, his dog's name and description. and it will show pictures of how badly mauled my dog got, and tell everyone to avoid him because he lets his dog bite and refuses to pay for it.

Larry Ashcraft
December 30, 2007, 12:23 AM
Folks,

Threads about shooting dogs are off-topic. The fact that a gun may have been be used to shoot a dog does not make the topic gun related.

I'm sorry I let this one go on so long.

We just can't seem to discuss this matter civilly, so we just won't discuss it.

The next dog shooting thread gets deleted immediately.

Closed.

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