Problem loading Rainier bullets in 45acp brass


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seektruth
December 29, 2007, 04:05 PM
I'm loading 45acp on a Hornady LNL, using Lee dies. The bullets are Rainier 230gr round nose plated. Half of what I run ends up shaving the bullet or crushing the case. It seems pretty simple, not enough flare on the case mouth, right? Well I started out trying to use a powder through expander in my CAPD. Seeing what was happening, I put the Lee expander die into the rotation. I've adjusted it to get as much flare as I can (its touching the shell plate with ram up). Still had the problem, so I took a look at the seater die. It looked like it was trying to crimp while seating when adjusted per Lee instructions, so I adjusted it out another turn and tried it. Still had the problem. Adjusted the seater die out yet another turn, and sure enough...I still have the problem.

Something does not seem right here. The bullets measure .451 consistently. I'm flaring as much as I can (I think). Brass is assorted, Rem, Win, Fed, CCI. Problem seems to occur with any of the brass. What could it be? Any ideas? How far out should I be running the seater die if I'm crimping using a separate die?

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GP100man
December 29, 2007, 04:37 PM
try running a case into the seater with no bullet ,it may be catching on the sides???
case mouths too thick???
burr in the die ?? new???
i use my lee charge thru & auto disc powder measure & have loaded thousands of rainers bullets, no problems!!!!


GP100man

seektruth
December 29, 2007, 04:44 PM
Cases run into the seater fine without a bullet. I've also looked for burrs in all the dies and found none. However, it is worth mentioning that these are indeed all new dies, and I'm just setting up to load 45acp for the first time. I've been loading .223 and 9mm without issue for the most part.

With plated bullets, how much should the case be flared after being resized?

jenrob
December 29, 2007, 04:54 PM
I take a case that has been flared and put it under the seater die. Then run the seater die down til I feel the die touch the mouth and the turn it down aprox 1/4-1/2 turn just enough to take enough of the flare out that it will go into the FCD.

Chief-7700
December 29, 2007, 04:55 PM
Sounds like your not belling the case mouth, bell it so the bullet will not fall off.
Since I use a different press and dies. I had the same problem with some lead being shaved off in the tapered crimp die. Problem was not belling the case mouth.
Chief

jenrob
December 29, 2007, 05:01 PM
With plated bullets, how much should the case be flared after being resized?
just enough to set the bullet without shaving it. It's kinda trial and error. I have to flare a little more on my prog. press than on my single stage.

seektruth
December 29, 2007, 05:15 PM
Folks, thanks for the quick replies. The problem is definitely not enough flare. Even with the expander die (not the PTX in the CAPD) I was getting 1.5 thousandths flare with the die adjusted to touch the shell plate with the ram up. I went ahead and turned the die in another quarter turn, and sure enough I now get .003" flare and the bullets seem to go in fine. This is enough flare that the bullet will sit square in the case mouth without falling out.

So, in summary, it looks like the PTX just isn't going to work. And my expander die is requiring a lot more adjustment in than I thought it would.

buenhec
December 29, 2007, 06:23 PM
I had the same problem. It drove me nuts. It turns out there was a bullet stuck way in the die causing the bullet to seat incorrectly catching the lip of the brass and shaving/crushing.

jenrob
December 29, 2007, 08:09 PM
The powder thru expanders work there just PIA to set-up I have 2 PTX for 45 one for lead bullets one for jacket bullets 1 for 40S&W 1 for 357 and 1 for 38spc. I have 7 quick change powder dies all adjusted to what I load plus an extra for loading oddballs that way I don't have to mess with it again. Once you get it setup don't mess with it. Granted the regular expander dies are easier to set up but that is an extra station you have to use up. I have my expanders set with LNL die bushing adjusted for my singlt stage for load developement. don't give up on the PTX a lot of people in other threads and other formshave pulled the hair out trying to set them up, but once you get it set up it gets easier to set the next one up

meinbruder
December 29, 2007, 09:22 PM
I had the same problem trying to load plated slugs from West Coast Bullets. The bullets were either shaved with the plating piled up in wrinkles ahead of the case, or the case was crushed. I flared the cases until they barely fit into the seating die, adjusted the seating die to apply no crimp, and tried chamfering the case mouth severely. Nothing would give me a shoot able cartridge. After spending four or five hours trying to adjust the dies to the plated slugs, I gave up. I asked questions on a couple of forums, the suggestions indicated that some of the responders didnít read my original post and just gave pat answers to the problem, I gave a lot of detail at the time. No, not on this board.

I was going to trash the slugs and chalk it up to experience when a friend of mine asked for them. He managed to load them but the cases were bulged and they wouldnít chamber in his pistol, to bad he didnít test fire a few before loading the balance of the box. He spent as much time pulling nearly four hundred of them to retrieve the brass as he spent loading them.

My advice; Oregon Trail Laser Cast lead. Iíve loaded thousands of lead slugs with the same dies and press, from a variety of manufacturers without issue but the OTLC slugs are hands down the best. Thanks for posting a similar problem with the Rainer product, at least I know not to bother with them.

Da Bianhua
}:)>

Chief-7700
December 29, 2007, 09:38 PM
Hate to say this "That is why I reload on a Dillon Xl-650"
Station 1 Resize and remove spent primer
Station 2 New primer installed case mouth flared, powder dumped into case
Station 3 Low or high powder check
Station 4 Bullet seating
Station 5 Taper crimp applied
Chief

meinbruder
December 29, 2007, 10:54 PM
Hi Chief

My RCBS Piggyback II would need to have a sixth station to apply the taper crimp, so I do it manually with a Lee hand press and factory crimp dies. I know, it doesnít mesh with a progressive loader but I canít upgrade to the Dillon unit just now. I ran a box of my friendís bullets through the Lee crimp die and they chambered and functioned just fine in my 1911. A target check revealed a litter of empty ďbullet bottomsĒ in front of me on the ground and not a lot of good hits on the target. The plating was separating and being pulled off the lead core at the muzzle. So much for plated bullets. YMMV.

Da Bianhua
}:)>

evan price
December 29, 2007, 11:25 PM
Odd. I load Rainier 230-grain plated round nose bullets in my Pro-1000 for my Sig P220 and Glock 21. I know I am on my second thousand of them, with no troubles. I once had one do as described, catch on a flared case and wrinkle/tear the plating, turned out the individual slug was out-of-round and slightly ovoid in shape.
As far as stripping the jackets, if you over-crimp them you cut the plating metal. Then they will strip off even at lower velocities.

I would have to say I am a satisfied Rainier bullet user. If only they were cheaper.

If you decide to ditch the Rainiers I owuld be interested in buying them from you for a discount since they are obviously defective :D

jenrob
December 30, 2007, 01:06 AM
Hate to say this "That is why I reload on a Dillon Xl-650"
Station 1 Resize and remove spent primer
Station 2 New primer installed case mouth flared, powder dumped into case
Station 3 Low or high powder check
Station 4 Bullet seating
Station 5 Taper crimp applied
Chief

He's loading on a Hornady and it can be set up the same as the dillon. my stations are identical to yours and I don't have a Dillon. Heck I would'nt mind having one but don't have the need for 2 prog. presses

Luggernut
December 30, 2007, 04:53 PM
This thread is confusing me. I can get tons of flare with the PTE or a separate die. I expand mine just enough so I can just see the flare- nothing more. The Rainiers don't have much taper at all compared to the Berrys I've used so a slight flare is definitely needed.. but nothing extreme. I do seating separate from crimp.... you should try this. With the LNL here is my set up:

1) Sizer/deprimer
1.5) Primer
2) Powder/Expander
3) Powder Cop
4) Seating
5) Taper crimp (just enough to remove flare)

I haven't loaded much Rainier .45 yet but what I did worked just fine with no changes compared to my Berrys .45s.

1911NM
January 4, 2008, 03:18 PM
Berrys supposedly have a thicker electroplating of copper than Rainier. I have hear lots of issues with an over crimp on Rainier's separating the copper, but no issues with Berrys. Loading my .45 with the Berrys 200gr plated SWC, and W231 working up a major power factor load. I don't use the powder thru expander die on my LNL-AP, and the 5th station is a Hornady TCD. I just watch my cases well and check often to avoid double charge or squibs. More to the point, I guess, I ran my expander down just to where the bullet would set solidly in the case, not on it.

Steve in PA
January 4, 2008, 04:54 PM
No problem loading Rainier using RCBS dies here. I've loaded thousands of 230gr just for my P220, and thousands more for my 9mm's.

Bailey Boat
January 4, 2008, 05:16 PM
I just checked out the Berry's and they are listed at .452, aren't Ranier's .451 ?????

Walkalong
January 4, 2008, 06:12 PM
For those who are saying the Raniers are the problem I have loaded 1000's of Raniers with no trouble at all. They work fine if everything is adjusted right.

Berry's, Ranier, West Coast or X-Treme plated bullets all run around .451/.4515/.452

They all work just fine. seektruth figured it out. The flare. You need enough flare to seat the bullet by hand about 1/32 or so into the case so it will go in smooth when seated.

bigcim
January 11, 2008, 02:28 AM
I had this problem as well lee dies on a lyman turret. one out of 20 would shave. adjusted my expanding die so far down it would get stuck and still didnt fix it

BsChoy
January 11, 2008, 12:29 PM
I had this prob with my powder through die....I reload mixed brass so i chalk it up to thinner brass not flaring the same amount as thicker brass and needing a little more...If there is anymore resistance than a reasonable amount when seating I stop and put that case to the side and flare it again at the end of the session.

drworry
January 12, 2008, 10:42 PM
Hi all

I am trying to use the ranier 200 g RN for my SA-XD .45. I'm using 231, and have worked up to 5.3 grains, and I'm still getting stovepipes and failures to fully cycle the slide. My OAL is about .123, and I'm crimping to .453. I'm using mixed brass at this point. I'm also on a dillon SD.

I expected to get better reults at this powder charge, so i have tried changing depth and crimp to little success.

Data from the winchester sight states 5.5 is the top, but many other reloading guides go much higher. As you know, rainier suggests lead loads.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

jeepmor
January 13, 2008, 02:48 AM
I'm not certain, but if you're seating and crimping in one step, this is notoriously tricky to setup w/o getting the plating scrunching issue you're discussing. I had this issue on some 10mm loads, I ended up crimping and seating in separate steps and the issue went away. On my 45 loads with Xtreme bullets, I never had an issue, go figure.

I simply could not get a decent crimp and seat simultaneously without peeling some plating once in a while on the 10mm plinkers, so I did it in two steps. Bell didn't really change that much in my case, but it was visited.

I like the hardcast lead for this reason and can provide a +1 for Oregon Laser Cast hardcast, great bullets. But being lead is as much as plated bullets now, why buy lead and deal with the smoke when I can buy plated plinkers and still see my target after a couple shots.

1911NM
January 13, 2008, 01:09 PM
DrWorry, that's a pretty tight crimp. I am setting at .469 taper for my 1911 with 5.5g w231 under a Berrys plated SWC, and that cycles the 18lb spring in my Kimber just dandy. Actually a little hot for what I was looking for. I may drop to 5.3g. Further question for the more experienced here. With a relatively fast powder, and too tight a crimp wouldn't one build more pressure, or would the pressure drop off occur earlier and result in cycling probs?

drworry
January 13, 2008, 06:37 PM
Interestingly, I took the same set up and substituted 200 g LSWC (same crimp, depth, powder charge) and the slide cycled just fine. I suspect that the lead just seals better than the electroplated and so more pressure develops.

I will go ahead and try 5.6 g of 231 with both the rainier 200 g and the 200 g berrys and see what happens. I'll bet that they resemble more jacketed than lead.

The recoil spring for the xd is about 18#, I think, bu it feels stiffer than any other I have had.

Thanks for the input.

drworry
January 15, 2008, 10:46 PM
Finally got it - 5.6 g of 231 did the trick with both berry's and rainier 200 g- maybe after a few thousand rounds i can use less powder.....

thanks all!

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