SA & DA autoloaders don't exist.


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spiroxlii
December 29, 2007, 10:27 PM
I was at the gun shop yesterday to buy some ammo and I lingered long enough over the handgun case to get noticed by somebody who works there. He asked if I was interested, and I pointed to one handgun I didn't recognize and asked if I could see it. While he's opening the case, I told him that all my handguns were revolvers and that I didn't have much experience with autoloaders. Then I asked him if he knew if the one he was pulling out of the case was DAO.

He gave me the "I'm an expert, and your question amuses me" smile and proceeded to tell me that "Well... it's a semi-auto, not a revolver. I don't really see how you could call it single action or double action."

I left politely with my ammo. It's not like I'll never shop there again. I certainly will. It's just that my determination to do all my own research instead of trusting the gun shop guys has been reinforced. I'm not saying the guy is an idiot, but "guns" is a very broad subject. Maybe he's an expert in something other than handguns.

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possum
December 29, 2007, 10:49 PM
yeah if you need help, or questions answered here and other forums are the places to go, the local gun shop clerks and such are a little out there, and there are countless stories about bad clerks. i was once told that shooting jacketed rds through my guns was illegal. so good thing i bought the lead rds. i was dumb fouded.

spiroxlii
December 29, 2007, 10:57 PM
Shooting jacketed rounds is illegal? What do you folks who live up North do in the winter to keep your bullets warm, then?

Do they at least allow sweatshirted rounds? :p

boalex207
December 29, 2007, 11:10 PM
I've run into a few gun store clerks, God bless 'em, who were delivering pizzas and washing cars for a living the week before. :what:

highorder
December 29, 2007, 11:26 PM
I walked into a Dicks sporting goods looking for a one piece cleaning rod (Dewey, Tipton, Kleenbore, etc) the other day and only saw segmented rods.

I asked the clerk if they had anything else. his reply? "no one makes a rod that long, they dont fit in the cleaning kits."

Tom Servo
December 30, 2007, 12:39 AM
To be honest, that may or not be an "a or b" question. Although Glocks/XDs/M&P's may theoretically be DAO, some disagree.

After all, double-action or single-action imply the presence of a hammer for some, myself included. Alot of newfangled guns are operated by an internal striker.

What's more, 6lbs is not a double-action trigger in my book.

Then again, he might have just been making a light joke with the semantics. Or, he might have just dealt with 20 people in a row who don't know jack about guns and ask the most inane questions.

Bear in mind, this week is hell for many gun dealers. Your regulars are out of town, and you're besieged with people who just now a) got money, and b) thought that shooting may be a good idea without any training. The training wheels are on in force the week after Christmas.

There are some shops that have truly dreadful service, bordering on hostile, but this might not be one of them. I wouldn't write them off based on what might have been a misunderstanding.

Crimp
December 30, 2007, 11:33 AM
You guys have all the fun! ;) I've never run into one of these gun-shop ninjas, even at Dick's and Cabella's. The closest I've come is one guy in a hock shop that guessed the red tips on Hornady ammo meant they were tracers...


BTW:

To be honest, that may or not be an "a or b" question. Although Glocks/XDs/M&P's may theoretically be DAO, some disagree.

Eric, the XD doesn't fit in your list. When the slide is racked on an XD, the striker is fully cocked and it is considered a single-action handgun.

steelyblue
December 30, 2007, 11:41 AM
I recently went into a pawn shop that had some dinged up heritage 22 revolvers for $400. They had some scratched up glocks for $800 and a cz75b for $650. If there getting that much for that kind of trash, I wish I could hack into their clientel and sell time shares on the Arizona beach front.

Tom Servo
December 30, 2007, 11:46 AM
Eric, the XD doesn't fit in your list. When the slide is racked on an XD, the striker is fully cocked and it is considered a single-action handgun.
Yeah, but to revolver and 1911 guys, it doesn't feel like a single-action trigger :) Don't get me wrong...I like the idea, but my point was that the system doesn't technically fall under the "DA vs. SA" purview.

Navy87Guy
December 30, 2007, 11:55 AM
Yeah, but to revolver and 1911 guys, it doesn't feel like a single-action trigger Don't get me wrong...I like the idea, but my point was that the system doesn't technically fall under the "DA vs. SA" purview.

I have to disagree -- technically it is a very straight forward answer. Does the pulling of the trigger do anything other than release the hammer/striker? If no, then it's SA. If yes, then it's DA. End of discussion.

What you're arguing is the "feel" - which has no bearing on the classification of the action. A boogered-up 1911 trigger can have a single action pull that's heavier than a tuned Glock -- which is technically a double action. The subjective feel of the action doesn't change the technical operation of the handgun - and that's where people start confusing the issue.

I agree that striker-fired weapons have confused things, but it's still pretty easy if you just stick with the technical definition -- then talk about perceptions/feelings as a separate subject.

Jim

default
December 30, 2007, 12:35 PM
Does the pulling of the trigger do anything other than release the hammer/striker? If no, then it's SA. If yes, then it's DA.

Well put, Navy87Guy. That's how I see it, and is why I also consider GLOCKs, etc., to ultimately be DA pistols, although I prefer to use the term "quasi-DAO" in detailed discussions to distinguish them from traditional DA pistols like most SIGs, etc.

Having said that, if the gunshop employee that spiroxlii encountered truly doesn't think the terms "double action" or "single action" can be applied to pistols like, on the one hand, a 1911, or on the other, a Beretta 92D, then he simply does not know what he is talking about. Either that, or he is a lofty revolver zealot who doesn't consider autoloaders to be "real guns", or that the distinction between SA and DA revolvers is more important or interesting than it is on autos and phrased his response in a way that made him look more ignorant than he really is.

JP from Phoenix
December 30, 2007, 12:47 PM
I recently went into a pawn shop that had some dinged up heritage 22 revolvers for $400. They had some scratched up glocks for $800 and a cz75b for $650. If there getting that much for that kind of trash, I wish I could hack into their clientel and sell time shares on the Arizona beach front.

Alot of pawn shops try to rip people off big time. I went into one trying to pull the same stuff trying to hawk off used guns as new ones at prices i could get the same item at a real gun shop for like 100 bucks less

The Lone Haranguer
December 30, 2007, 12:49 PM
He gave me the "I'm an expert, and your question amuses me" smile and proceeded to tell me that "Well... it's a semi-auto, not a revolver. I don't really see how you could call it single action or double action."

OK, some autoloader actions do blur the line, but he seems to be speaking in absolute terms. Sounds like he needs more training. He needs to lose the "'tude" more than learning the technical aspects. :rolleyes:

I recently went into a pawn shop that had some dinged up heritage 22 revolvers for $400. They had some scratched up glocks for $800 and a cz75b for $650. If there getting that much for that kind of trash...
They're not necessarily getting it. How long have those guns been in the case? ;)

weisse52
December 30, 2007, 12:56 PM
I recently went into a pawn shop that had some dinged up heritage 22 revolvers for $400. They had some scratched up glocks for $800 and a cz75b for $650. If there getting that much for that kind of trash, I wish I could hack into their clientel and sell time shares on the Arizona beach front.

I love to cruise the local pawn shops for deals. Sometimes you run into a shop like that. They are preying on people who either do not know better, or cannot go somewhere else. Most pawn shops offer liberal "layaway" plans that allow people to purchase items. In some cases they (sometimes) use all of this to really rip people off. But, some are really pretty good if you know what you are looking at. Pawn shops are really good to haggle over price. I have bought guns at half of what they where asking.

dsk
December 30, 2007, 01:14 PM
My most recent gunshop clerk story was from earlier this year when I tried to special-order a new stainless Colt Series 70. When I inquired his response was "Colt Series 70? What is that, a handgun?".

:scrutiny:

There's a new generation out there that has only ever heard of Glocks, AK's and AR's. Nothing else exists as far as they know.

Phydeaux642
December 30, 2007, 04:10 PM
I feel fortunate. The local pawn shop that I have been dealing with have guys behind the counter who are very easy to get along with and don't have an attitude. Plus, they have the best prices in town.:)

________________

"Phydeaux, bad dog....no biscuit!"

MachIVshooter
December 30, 2007, 04:56 PM
Would you go to a car salesman for auto repair or driving lessons?

Same logic applies to gunshop clerks/salespeople. Just because they handle the merchandise transactions doesn't mean they can offer expert (or even helpful) advice.

NG VI
December 30, 2007, 05:26 PM
jacketed rounds illegal? i've also heard some ridiculous things before, knew this one guy who called JHPs 'copkillers', spent five minutes trying to get his fingerprints off a gun of mine he held, didn't understand why it offended me, and was convinced his stainless sigma .40 was a far better gun than my USP 40, because of the stainless. i don't speak to that guy anymore

Aguila Blanca
December 30, 2007, 05:38 PM
I'm not saying the guy is an idiot, but "guns" is a very broad subject. Maybe he's an expert in something other than handguns.
I'll say it for you:

"The guy is an idiot."

Aguila Blanca
December 30, 2007, 05:45 PM
I've run into a few gun store clerks, God bless 'em, who were delivering pizzas and washing cars for a living the week before.
Sometimes, it works out that water seeks its own level.

Several years ago I had a nasty run-in with a computer repair facility that totally botched a repair on my notebook computer. After waiting a couple of MONTHS, I finally got it back only to find that the problem had not been fixed. Took it back, and the manager (or owner, not sure which) basically called me an idiot and told me I "obviously" didn't know how to use it. Well, I admit that I didn't know how to fix it, but I know how to browse the Internet well enough to know that when I logged onto the browser and everything froze after two or three mouse clicks, something was wrong.

To make a long story short, not long after I stopped payment on my check and wrote the place a nasty letter, they were out of business. Two weeks ago I happened to stop into an Advanced Auto Parts store in a nearby town. And who do you suppose was stocking shelves in the Advanced Auto store? Right ... Mr. Personality himself.

Looks like the Peter Principle works -- the guy found his level of incompetence.

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