Which guns are good as an investment?


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no_problem
December 30, 2007, 01:30 PM
Which guns are good as investments?

Although I don't use the investment logic to justify buying guns, IMHO, These three guns are excellent as investments. These guns hold their value well over time and prices have actually increased. They are fairly scarce, there is a healthy market and demand for them, or, due to government firearms regulations or market dynamics, they are not easily substituted.

1. The M1A

2. The Spas 12: the Spas 12 is no longer imported, it is a sexy gun, and it has no real substitutes for now. It's rare, difficult to imitate, and non substitutable.

3. Action Arms Uzi

What are your thoughts on the best investment guns? Ones that retain their value and have little substitute value.

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kd7nqb
December 30, 2007, 01:39 PM
Anything that is likely to be banned is probably a good investment, (but you take the gamble on being able to sell it again)

Anything unique in one way or another.

NFA Items.

Dbl0Kevin
December 30, 2007, 01:41 PM
I would add CMP Garands in that list too. They're not going to be around much longer and have been going up in price for quite a while now.

Dustinthewind
December 30, 2007, 01:46 PM
Any quality fire arm is good investment. I have yet to see any of mine go down in value.

v35
December 30, 2007, 01:48 PM
Which guns aren't good investments? I couldn't buy any of mine for what I paid for them.

Sure there are junk guns, but they're not worth buying to begin with.

MachIVshooter
December 30, 2007, 01:51 PM
All mil surp stuff is an investment, though the returns are usually somewhat minimal. Take for example Yugo SKS's; 5 years ago, they could be had for $69. Average price now is around $200. I can't think of a single mil surp that hasn't increased in the last 3-5 years, some more than others.

I wouldn't consider anything current production an investment. The M1A you listed is not going to increase in value in the foreseeable future, and you'd actually take a 20% +/- hit to buy it new and resell it unfired.

The SPAS is not likely to yield much return, either. Their prices have held steady since the end of their importation, and they are viewed by most as not having any real advantage over lighter and more economical pumps or autos. IOW, they're not easy to sell at fair market price.

The Uzi copies are scarce for a reason. It's a good design, but there are many alternative 9mm carbines that are just as good or better for a lot less money.

Big45
December 30, 2007, 01:52 PM
Most guns. Ammo is a far better investment.

stevereno1
December 30, 2007, 03:47 PM
I have not seen colt revolvers go down in value, ever. Especially the python's, and anaconda's. M1a is a good idea, and depending on the November election, Semi auto rifles that accept mags of 20 or 30 rounds would also see a spike in value.

Gator
December 30, 2007, 04:44 PM
I take a contrary view here. While there are many guns that will increase in value, few are good investments. Putting the same amount of money into a mutual fund will provide a greater return. Plus, the likelihood of your mutual fund being declared illegal overnight is less...at least until the libs succeed in socializing all private wealth. :(

Neo-Luddite
December 30, 2007, 04:45 PM
CMP-Garands--when they are gone they WILL be gone. The quaility isn't being duplicated. Not often caught in anyone's AWB net owning to not having a box mag, with quality ammo cheap right now also, it is a great buy.

I wish I had bought a few CZ-52's also---they seem to have dried up.

AirplaneDoc
December 30, 2007, 05:13 PM
I have never owned a gun, that I lost money on, you just might have to some of them longer than others

LightningJoe
December 30, 2007, 06:27 PM
I doubt any guns would make good investments compared to more conventional vehicles like stocks. Unless civilization were to collapse. That's a bit far fetched, but not impossible.


Then, your stock certificates, currency, and even the deed on your house might become worthless. If, though, you had diligently sought out good deals on simple, functional, used firearms, you could have a large store of such trade goods which would hold their value and even increase in value in the event of a major, worldwide disturbance in the economy.


And, if civilization didn't collapse, you'd have a whole bunch of guns which you could either look at and chuckle or just sell at a small gain or worstcase a small loss.

rust collector
December 30, 2007, 06:31 PM
Seriously, the best investment guns are those too valuable to use in the field. Custom guns crafted long ago in a faraway land seem to be the most sought after. US military firearms have recently gotten quite a bit more valuable. Exchange rates have made foreign built guns more costly, but that pendulum swings both ways, too.

My guns have to earn their keep. If you want to buy guns for someone else to enjoy, find scarce specimens, keep them in the safe, and keep them well insured.

ClarkEMyers
December 30, 2007, 08:23 PM
Not likely but Garands will go down in price if reimporting foreign military aid is allowed. Compare prices on Garands in the United States and in Canada. The scarcity in the United States today is artificial for a rifle produced in truly vast numbers.

That said I suspect most of us have had the experience of finding a bargain - I bought one target gun from a friend in desperate need of immediate funds and told him at the time it was worth more and that I would turn it for more - he said he'd rather wholesale it to me and let me make the retail than do the same thing with a dealer. Not an investment.

In today's world of wildy high prices for deluxe 1911's we don't see Swenson or Giles or Bob Chow guns commanding high prices - the guns being made today are the best ever but it's the fashion that makes the price.

Although not the M1A but any legal M14 (and I'd like an M15!) would be something to consider as an investment!

sublimaze41
December 30, 2007, 08:26 PM
All guns are good investments and can save you money, just ask my wife:D

Shieldbreaker
December 30, 2007, 09:07 PM
I the ma DE is a good one....Paid less then a grand for it.
Never been fired.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j274/shldbrkr/Picture021.jpg
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j274/shldbrkr/Picture027.jpg
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j274/shldbrkr/Picture019.jpg

CWL
December 30, 2007, 09:37 PM
Probably guns that still require a great amount of hand-finishing as opposed to polymer or stamped guns.

SAA revolvers will probably continue to increase in value.

CleverNickname
December 30, 2007, 09:49 PM
Buy guns because you like shooting them or collecting them, not because you think you'll make money off of them. You might, but odds are much better that you'd make more money off of an index fund.

If someone did decide to buy a firearm merely as an investment, I'd suggest older firearms with some historical value. For example, not just any old CMP M1 Garand, but JFK's CMP M1 Garand (which was sold not too long ago for mid 5 figures IIRC).

Dienekes
December 30, 2007, 09:53 PM
Count me among those who cock an eyebrow about "investment" guns. Beyond those few actually used on a regular basis (CCW or a hunter's M70 or 870) they are very discretionary things. You don't need many, and the very fancy, collectable or otherwise high dollar guns will appreciate in good times, but can also go begging for buyers when things get tough. Witness the current "crisis" in home mortgages. Nobody "needs" a fancy double shotgun or an engraved gun. If bills need paying no one goes shopping for them, either.

I am inclined to think that "working guns" are more likely to hold or gain in value because average people do percieve a need for them and will obtain them even in tough times--and they remain cost-effective in the buyer's eyes. Think, again, of the lowly Model 870 shotgun. Even a Ruger P-series pistol.

If my wife were to have to dispose of my guns tomorrow, she would get about 70% of their retail value, if that.

Stuff is worth exactly what a willing buyer will give a willing seller. No more, no less.

So let's get busy wearing the blue off what we have now.

I LIKE IT!
December 30, 2007, 09:59 PM
Lifes too short my friend...enjoy them don't worry about $elling them.

That being said...

NFA stuff if you have the dough, though it's more like you investing yourself for them.

Preban guns tagged by import ban.

WW1 & 2 guns.

Oh and the soon to be banned AGAIN and for good Evil Black Rifles.:fire:

antsi
December 30, 2007, 10:13 PM
I doubt any guns would make good investments compared to more conventional vehicles like stocks.

I think you are right here.

Simply saying "the market price for this gun has increased since I bought it" does not make it a good investment. In order for it to be a good investment, you have to say "the market price for this gun has increased more than any of the other investment options I had at the time."

Barring massive social disruption as LightnigJoe mentioned, it is unlikely that guns will outperform other kinds of investments on a consistent basis.

RPCVYemen
December 30, 2007, 10:28 PM
Although I don't use the investment logic to justify buying guns, IMHO, These three guns are excellent as investments. These guns hold their value well over time and prices have actually increased. They are fairly scarce, there is a healthy market and demand for them, or, due to government firearms regulations or market dynamics, they are not easily substituted.

Study other investments, and get a clear understanding of exponential growth - it's not very intuitive (at least to me). This is particularly true for investments that you hold for a long time.

The other aspect to understand is the element of risk. Individual weapons are a very risky investment - you should expect a high rate of return (to be compensated for the risk). There are all the standard risks you would expect with any collectible, plus some addition political/legal risk.

Also, don't be confused by dumb luck. I bought a K31 two years ago for $129, and I see that they are selling for $200 now from the same source. As that a wise investment, or dumb luck? Dumb luck?

Mike

jmr40
December 30, 2007, 10:47 PM
Guns are not a good investment, this is true. But there are worse things to spend money on. All of mine are "working guns", and most were bought used and can be sold for the same or more than I paid. The money I have in the bank is increasing in value faster than my guns, but I can't take the money out and play with it any time I want. Other than our homes There are few things that can be used for 20-30 years and be worth more than we paid.

RPCVYemen
December 30, 2007, 10:57 PM
Guns are not a good investment, this is true. But there are worse things to spend money on.

Agreed, agreed.

But I think it's critical to keep the toy/investment aspects clear in our heads.

To pick non-gun objects that people often confuse the toy/investment aspects, think of beach houses and sports cars.

Some people make money by investing in beach houses and sports cars.

Some people derive a lot of enjoyment from beach houses and sports cars.

Most people who tell themselves a beach house or sports car is an investment - when it is in fact a toy - end up pretty unhappy.

Mike

davepool
December 30, 2007, 10:59 PM
Any Limited Editions ...maybe.. I bought a Springfield Armory "Iwo Jima" M1 Garand (#1433 of 1945) didn't consider it an investment, but maybe some day another gun nut like me will think it's worth more than i paid for it. I don't really plan on selling, more of a gift to my first grandson when he turns 18

silverlance
December 30, 2007, 11:02 PM
guns are a great investment - if you have tons of secure room.

i can absolutely guarantee you , and i will put 100 bucks on that, that your run of the mill matching numbers VG+ condition romanian AK parts kit going for $99 right now is going to be pushing $200 within 18 months.

our company used to sell FAL parts kits for $149, IMBEL. now you see them on gunbroker for $300. that's 9 months later.

someone mentioned yugo sks rifles. well, the outlook for the 7.62x39 is good. remember, with guns, ammo is key. lets say that you buy 200 excellent-unissued m59/66 rifles. get them in their crates, too. you pay $150 for each because you are buying in bulk. you store them in a big steel container in a cool dry environment. since these are long guns, you put ALL of them on a single 4473.

two years later. you sell each for $300. that's a modest price ... who knows what the political environment will be then?

200x150 = 30,000$ and right now the dollar is at a low point!

now.. how many stocks, bonds, funds etc... can do 100% in 24 months?

and best of all... you can arm an army against the mutant zombies.

1 old 0311
December 30, 2007, 11:03 PM
Yugo underfolders are the best buy going now. You will NEVER loose money on one.

22-rimfire
December 30, 2007, 11:58 PM
I believe there is a place for guns in a growing net worth. Place for precious metals too. Guns, like art, are risky investments. If you invest in guns, you aren't trying to pick up 15-20% in 10 years. You need at least 200% or more in that amount of time. So, what guns have increased in value that much in ten years? Guns hold their value, but are generally poor investments. Some will surprise you though.

The best way to make money with guns is like silverlance suggested. Buy in bulk at a cheap price. If you can hold them for two years and turn them for double you money, you are way ahead of the game. Then you do it again and again and pretty soon you're a full time gun speculator and you need a FFL. :)

By the way, I have lost money on guns. Generally speaking, I'm not too interested in making $15 on a gun other than to say that I didn't loose money. Chances are you paid more than that in sales tax.

Soybomb
December 31, 2007, 03:27 AM
These three guns are excellent as investments. These guns hold their value well over time and prices have actually increased.
If you're defining an investing as something that holds its value or maybe increase a little, you're not talking about much of an investment.

Just to give you something to think about if you tuck $1000 in an index fund today that averages a 10% annual return (which is relatively easy) you'll have something like $4400 in 15 years. I wouldn't gamble on a gun value increase of $3400 in those 15 years.

Guns are fun toys and they don't really depreciateas much as cars or electronics, but for the most part they are not investments. If you're sacrificing contributions to your retirement fund to buy garands, you've got problems.

GD
December 31, 2007, 12:13 PM
The only good investment is one where you buy low and then sell high. Generally, firearms only follow the rate of inflation. If you bought a Yugo SKS about 17 years ago, you would have paid $1500 for a rifle that is now worth $200. If you bought a Soviet Mosin for $70 in 1990, it would now be worth about the same - which means a loss due to inflation. I do look at my firearms as investments only because I try to buy at a greatly reduced price. Pawn shops, garage sales, and occasionally a gunshow will provide the low price I am looking for. Some bargains I have found - a $325 Garand, a $320 SVT40, a $90 Finn M28/30, a $95 Finn M28, and a $180 unaltered M1917 Eddystone. Last winter I saw a guy pick up an unaltered Krag for $30 at a gunshow. These are investments that would bring an immediate huge growth rate. You buy a modern firearm for a fair retail price, I doubt you would see a return in the near future that would be worth your efforts to sell it. If you are planning for a social upheaval that would increase your earnings greatly, you would have what I would call a risky investment.

H2O MAN
December 31, 2007, 12:25 PM
Just to give you something to think about if you tuck $1000 in an index fund today that
averages a 10% annual return (which is relatively easy) you'll have something like $4400
in 15 years. I wouldn't gamble on a gun value increase of $3400 in those 15 years.

Yeah, but I spent less than $1000 on two ChiCom M14s about 18 months ago and they are
worth more than double what I paid for them. Imagine what they will be worth in 15 years.

tblt
December 31, 2007, 12:27 PM
Any name brand gun in good shape

Deanimator
December 31, 2007, 12:30 PM
Pre-lock S&W revolvers, especially pinned and recessed, blued ones. Prices are getting ridiculous.

doc2rn
December 31, 2007, 12:42 PM
If you want a to collect weapon systems that is your right, but for me mine are made to be used. Sure some will go up in value others down, but you are missing a great deal by just looking at them as property. I use mine to create memories I can look back on and smile. I would rather buy a rifle and go on a Safari in Africa, but hey thats just me.

outofbattery
December 31, 2007, 12:46 PM
Whether you look at them as an investment or as simply something that you would like to own now that would be much more expensive to obtain later,very few guns are bad buys.
I never thought that the Bulgarian SLR I bought new for $329 would be selling for $800 or that I would wish I had bought several more FAL's and CETME's for $250-300.I doubt you'll ever manage to lose $ on mil-surps,but they most likely won't increase in value as rapidly as some firearms.A couple of the guns I very much wish that I had bought when I had the chance were a brand new SP89 for $825 and one of the last Steyr AUG's for a then what seemed incredible $1200.Oh well!

redneck2
December 31, 2007, 12:51 PM
Just to give you something to think about if you tuck $1000 in an index fund today that averages a 10% annual return (which is relatively easy) you'll have something like $4400 in 15 years. I wouldn't gamble on a gun value increase of $3400 in those 15 years.
Guns as a true investment are typically a poor idea. I subscribe to a newsletter that has investment portfolios consisting of well known mutual funds and other mixed securities. They're running about 20-25% per year return. A model portfolio that started in 1988 is up about 2,200%.

The thing to remember about long term investment is compounding. For example, if you have a $1,000 investment that doubles every 5 years and you hold it for 20 years, it's then worth $16,000. I'm starting a college fund for my grand-daughter. We can invest $20 a week for 5 years and have college mostly or totally paid for when she's ready to go.

22-rimfire
December 31, 2007, 01:00 PM
I don't really want to throw politics into this discussion, but if the Democrats win the presidential election in 2008, I expect there is a good chance you will see a new "assault weapons" bill that is passed. That is very short term and more than likely existing firearms will not be affected. (Not always the case though.) So, military styled firearms are a reasonable short termed investment in guns. But you DO have to sell them if you want the return!

I buy firearms because I shoot them and like them. Some have appreciated in value significantly. I knew when I bought them they were good ones to buy, but I pay attention.

Pre-lock Smiths aren't a bad hedge against inflation, but as true investments, I doubt you'll see much appreciation beyond inflation as new gun prices rise. So, again, you need to like them to buy and store them. To make money on them, you have to keep your eyes open, buy and then sell and pocket your profit. Then do it again.

CTPistol
December 31, 2007, 01:17 PM
Guns as investments??? :uhoh:

However, not often will you LOSE money - which is great considering its a hobby and passion for many of us. Where you will lose money is on "tool" type guns like Glocks, XDs, etc. but most other real guns - safe.

Try breaking even with other hobbies like planes, boats, cars, electronics, etc..

aint gonna happen very often.

RPCVYemen
December 31, 2007, 01:44 PM
Pre-lock S&W revolvers, especially pinned and recessed, blued ones. Prices are getting ridiculous.

One thing to keep in mind is that there are nuances that are worth a lot to a very few people. That still make it a valuable investment, but things like "pre-lock" may be very, very, very important to a very small group of people.

That makes me nervous about long term investment potential. We have a generation of folks who are growing up on polymer auto's. Don't get me wrong - I love my Blackhawk. But when I have it at the range, the guy who show the most interest are over 50 - like me. :)

The problem I see in the future is that the small group of people who are willing to pay top bucks for special nuances in revolver (or even 1911) may well be aging rapidly.

So a very high price today may not tell you much. Maybe it will. But you wan to pick something that will have a high price in 10 or 20 years. That's a far more difficult task.

For example, I am quite happy shooting my K31. It's closed to doubled in value in a couple of years. I have no clue what it will be worth in 20 years. I think at lot of "collectibles" have a pretty high spike for a couple of years, and then start losing value rapidly. Want to buy a $10,000 collection of Beanie Babies?

So a group of people who grew up on polymer semi-auto's may have little/no interest in revolvers, and may care less about pre-lock/post-lock issues.

i can absolutely guarantee you , and i will put 100 bucks on that, that your run of the mill matching numbers VG+ condition romanian AK parts kit going for $99 right now is going to be pushing $200 within 18 months.


When people "guarantee" a rate of return, I am highly skeptical. If you could guarantee 100% return in 18 months, then every Fortune 500 company in the world would be beating a path to your front door. Smart people with billions in capital work very hard to make 7% - 10% average returns over any long period of time.

now.. how many stocks, bonds, funds etc... can do 100% in 24 months?

I think that you need to read up on risk. There are individual penny stock that do that all the time. Picking them in advance is the hard part. :) If/when you read up on risk, it will become clear that almost always, huge returns are related to huge risk. That penny stock may go up 100% in a day - but it may disappear tomorrow. A Fortune 500 company is unlikely to go up 100% in a day, but will likely not disappear tomorrow.

It's the picking in advance that's the hard part. A number of companies have had periods where they have gone up well over 100% in 24 months.

EMC Aug 06 - Nov 07 Something like 9$ -> $25 270%
Apple July 06 - Nov 07 Something like $50 -> $200 400%

So the answer to the question "How many stocks can do 100% in 24 months?" is "Lots and lots of them can do that. Just not the ones I pick!" :)

Mike

harmonic
December 31, 2007, 01:54 PM
I've been buy/selling/trading guns for about 35 years. Whenever you start talking about guns as investments, you're necessarily comparing them (the guns) to other types of investments.

If you were to calculate the money you "invest" in a gun vs, say, investments in blue chip stocks, plus figure in inflation, opportunity cost, etc, the conclusion is that guns are never a solid investment. It's just what we tell our wives whenever we decide to buy another gun.

putteral
December 31, 2007, 01:58 PM
Exactly! At least that is what I tell my wife.

Eagle103
December 31, 2007, 02:58 PM
That makes me nervous about long term investment potential. We have a generation of folks who are growing up on polymer auto's. Don't get me wrong - I love my Blackhawk. But when I have it at the range, the guy who show the most interest are over 50 - like me.

The problem I see in the future is that the small group of people who are willing to pay top bucks for special nuances in revolver (or even 1911) may well be aging rapidly.

I believe that's a good point. You see the same thing with collector automobiles. As people age and become empty nesters they look for cars and other items from their youth. I think that's a big part of the reason for the runup in values of the muscle cars from the late 60's and early 70's right now while the value many of the older vehicles has begun to flatten out and even decline as the interest in them goes down.

redneck2
December 31, 2007, 08:04 PM
Two of the latest examples I can think of are Belgian Browning shotguns and Winchester 97's. 10-15 years ago a really nice Browning would bring $1,200-1,500. A few years ago I had a chance to get a NIB, never unwrapped one for $650 and passed. For a while (when SASS was the craze) 97's were bringing $600-700. Now they're maybe $350-450 range.

If you want to have something that you can use and maybe make a little on or at least break even, guns are the ticket. To buy one and never fire it to maintain value makes little sense to me unless pride of ownership is your thing.

tblt
December 31, 2007, 08:06 PM
The ones you can keep young thugs from steeling.

no_problem
January 1, 2008, 12:22 AM
<<now.. how many stocks, bonds, funds etc... can do 100% in 24 months? >>

Google? I bought 100 shares at IPO+ for 90 bucks a share. 12 months later it's breaking though to 550. But I sold mine at 150, thinking it was too good to be true...That's another story!

I don't buy guns for investment purposes. The Colt Sporter I bought when I graduated Boot Camp was $490 in 1984, today, an AR can be had for about $600. Twenty years later!

I buy my guns cause I like 'em, and I never ever intend to sell them.

That said, I have seen the three guns listed go up in value quite a bit.

ironvic
January 1, 2008, 12:36 AM
Any good, pre-lock S&W revolver.

Oohrah
January 1, 2008, 12:57 AM
Fifty years of collecting increased values from three to 1000 times the value
Example a $14.50 03A4 unfired $3500? Colt Python new in the box @ $125,
now? Any Winchester in very good to excellent? Ammo will be the next
value of the future! Many I know who played stocks, pretty much lost their
A$$es and had no where the fun I had with firearms and watch their value
go one way UP:neener:

Deamon
January 1, 2008, 01:00 AM
Saiga-12?

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