Typical self defense shooting distances ?

[FMJMIKE]

What are the typical self defense shooting distances a civilian will be contronted with ?

[Double Naught Spy]

Depends on circumstances, but usually contact to just a few yards. Few folks are robbed, raped, carjacked, or otherwise assaulted at greater distances unless the intent of the bad guy is to out and out kill the intended victim...versus robbing them which may or may not mean attempting to harm them. Basically, the types of the crimes make it necessary for the bad guys to be in close proximity to the intended victim and so those tend to be conflict distances. Sometimes the distances open up as the parties attempt to separate, often while shooting or attempting to shoot.

Of course some civilian gun battles are the result of conflict and not goal-oriented crime such as robbery. If not at contact distances, they they are probably from several yards distance or more, such as when one party goes to retrieve a weapon and re-engages the fight.

In home invasion situations, shootings are usually from contact to across-the-room distances. The confines of most abodes limits the greatest possible/reasonable distance at which parties can fight because of walls and such.

Cop shooting distances tend to be greater because of their line of work. Shootings are either at contact distances (occurring during scuffles) or at 1+ car lengths and further.

[skinewmexico]

I've always heard from 0 to 3 yards. Definitely less than 7.

[cbn620]

I too have heard the 0-5 kind of number. I have heard 15 yards is the maximum with plenty of forgiveness for obscure or unlikely situations.

[Lurper]

Since there is no central database of civilian shootings, no one can claim what the "typical" distance is. Those who cite figures are pulling them from the UCR which deals with LE shootings or they are pulling them from somewhere where the sun don't shine.

[FMJMIKE]

So...........It seems a weapon that is effective at close ranges is preferable for civilians.

[NGIB]

I've read that 0-3 yards is considered about the norm. I routinely practice at 7, 10, and 15 yards to stay sharp at varied distances...

[Double Naught Spy]

Since there is no central database of civilian shootings, no one can claim what the "typical" distance is. Those who cite figures are pulling them from the UCR which deals with LE shootings or they are pulling them from somewhere where the sun don't shine.

Apparently Lurper does not understand the difference between quantitative and qualitative data. While there may be no central database, a brief survey of police records, news footage (especially from security cameras), etc. will reveal very few self defense shootings at long range by civilians.

So...........It seems a weapon that is effective at close ranges is preferable for civilians.

Generally speaking, although I don't know that there is a central database for this information and so I am pulling it, apparently, from where the sun doesn't shine, but weapons that are effective at longer ranges, as would be used by civilians, would also be effective at close ranges, but the opposite is not necessarily true.

[Gerald in Ga]

Close, closer, and get the hell off me!!!

[Lurper]

Apparently Lurper does not understand the difference between quantitative and qualitative data. While there may be no central database, a brief survey of police records, news footage (especially from security cameras), etc. will reveal very few self defense shootings at long range by civilians.
Since there is no place to examine a large enough sample of shootings, everything is supposition. I have interviewed many people and read several hundred reports from several jurisdictions and have come across SD shootings as far away 40 yards. While it may be a safe assumption that sd shootings take place at close range because of their nature, the specifics could be much more different than you think.

[TallPine]

As a general rule, if the "bad guy" is not pretty close (like maybe 0-10 yds), then it isn't self defense.

As with any rule, there are exceptions.

[MGD 45]

I think common sense plays a part here guys......I'd venture to say that SD shooting involving civilans are going to be atleast similar to those involving LEO's. Something like 95% or more are under 15 yards, with most being 7 yards or less....

Not too many criminals assault their victims from far away, because it's too easy for the victims to take cover, run, react......so up close & personal it is.:neener:

[TexasSkyhawk]

Since there is no place to examine a large enough sample of shootings, everything is supposition. I have interviewed many people and read several hundred reports from several jurisdictions and have come across SD shootings as far away 40 yards. While it may be a safe assumption that sd shootings take place at close range because of their nature, the specifics could be much more different than you think.

Original question was about typical self-defense shooting distances.

As far as "no place to examine a large enough sample of shootings, everything is supposition," I would respectfully submit that you could study and do compilations of the last twenty years of The Armed Citizen columns in the NRA's publications and come up with some reliable data.

If you simply look at those situations, which chances are good they're pretty indicative, typical self-defense shooting distances are less than twenty-five feet, with most being well under even that.

Jeff

[Lurper]

. . . respectfully submit that you could study and do compilations of the last twenty years of The Armed Citizen columns in the NRA's publications and come up with some reliable data.
The only problem with that is that the data like range, number of rounds fired, light, cover, etc. are not provided in the "Armed Citizen". In the vast majority of the cases, no shots are fired.

[Librarian]

Actually, the Armed Citizen (http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/Default.aspx) isn't too bad a source for indications.

I had it search for the word 'shoot' and it returned 240 results.

I just scanned the first 10 pages of results. I decided to classify incidents where a defensive shot was taken as

Contact to close - actual struggle, across a counter, inside a vehicle
Room-length (whatever that is) for indoors but not so close as the preceding
Long - generally outside; one actually said "30 feet".


I think there were 19 "close" (~30%), 43 "room" (~63%) and 6 "long" (~8%) - with rounding errors - on those 10 pages.

Obviously AC isn't a database, and my classifications may be wrong, and more search through the stories might change the numbers, but it seems that about twice as many DGU happen at something like 'room length' as happen 'up close'. 'Long distance' seems to be uncommon.

----

Ran through another 10 pages worth: total of 147 DGU shootings,
46 "close" (~31%), 90 "room" (~61%), 11 "long" (~7%).

I definitely have a bias to classify a thing as 'room' rather than 'close'.

[strambo]

Good work Librarian, that jibes with the LE data and common sense. So, you got roughly 93% at room distance and under (let's say 7yds and under) and 7% at 7 yds +. One could do a lot worse than to plan their training around your numbers. ~30% practice at 3 yards and under, ~60-65% at 3-7 yds and the balance at 10-25yds.

[FMJMIKE]

Excellent research.........thanks.

[Shaner]

What are the typical self defense shooting distances a civilian will be contronted with ?

If by typical are you basically asking a general consensus or reliable stats that give a certain range?

If you're asking the former, I'd only be able to give you a hypothesis based on what scenarios would take place for a victim to safely fire in self defense. As far as I'm concerned, I absolutely will NOT fire my weapon until I get that cold, sinking feeling that death is imminent.
I, myself, won't be firing back at a would be BG across the street from my house. I still have cover and means of retreat/exit. I think this is one key item here is means of exit/retreat.
The general distance where you think your life is on the line and there's no other option but to shoot to stop the intruder is going to be very vague. My "educated" guess on the most common distance is between contact and 10 feet.

Although the Armed Citizen may provide some stories of self defense, I don't think it's really a good indicator.
1. Of all the postings so far, everybody is making their own judgment on what actual distances are based on approximate adjectives.
2. There are rare times that actual distances are posted there.
3. Almost all of the exerpts are from local newspapers on incidents that just happened. It's not a police report. And facts of the case aren't rendered.

Of course, this is my $.02 and it probably isn't worth that...

[Double Naught Spy]

As a general rule, if the "bad guy" is not pretty close (like maybe 0-10 yds), then it isn't self defense.

As with any rule, there are exceptions.

Distance does not determine whether a shooting is self defense or not. It is silly to suggest self defense is tied to distance and to call it a general rule, especially if the opposition has a firearm. If you are in fear for your life and the bad guy has the intent, ability, and opportunity to do you harm (or perceived), then it is self defense.

[TallPine]

Distance does not determine whether a shooting is self defense or not.

Not by itself, but it would be one factor. In real world situations, there would have to exceptional conditions for it to be "self defense" at longer distances - usually either the attack hasn't started yet, or the BG is already running away from you.

[W.E.G.]

Gunfights only happen at the distance from the saloon to the barber shop in movies.

[GEM]

Happy New Year!

With all these questions about typicality, the issue is whether one prepares for the average or for some cut off in the extremes.

Do you carry a snubby because it is a 'close range' weapon for the typical mugging (although you can shoot them farther)? Do you plan to be in a mall, terrorist or Texas Tower attack so that you need your scoped AR-15 or 338 Lapua something or other?

Such decisions. However, I think the issue is whether one decides based on the average or some cut off in the tail of the estimated distribution of events.

[MostlyGenius]

Good work on the armed citizen evaluation. Librarian.

I think this is a question of methodology. If you have an aggressor at 50', but don't take any action and he closes to 10' before you shot him did you have a successful 10' gunfight or a screwed up 50' gunfight? When does the fight start? When you think their might be a fight or at the first trigger press?

I don't know that there is any way to get really useful metrics about encounter distances.

[Jeff22]

FMJMIKE: Are you looking to design a practice program for yourself, or advising somebody else?

[Librarian]

I think this is a question of methodology. If you have an aggressor at 50', but don't take any action and he closes to 10' before you shot him did you have a successful 10' gunfight or a screwed up 50' gunfight?
I end to go with successful 10' ...

When does the fight start? When you think their might be a fight or at the first trigger press?
Here I think it's when you identify the threat, 'reasonable man' standard. A guy with a knife at 50' isn't much of a threat - he can become one quickly, but somebody on the other side of the street from me, waving a knife and screaming in my direction, cannot be shot without more obvious danger (IMHO). A guy with a rifle, taking aim, is different.

I don't know that there is any way to get really useful metrics about encounter distances.
Well, not much more is worth the effort for me to do; sounds like a nice Master's thesis for a Criminology student. The easy data sources just don't have a lot of data verification and vocabulary standardization.

But part of that thesis ought to be why the distance makes a difference.

As I have thought about it, I think I sorted my results into three categories because it seems to me to break down by how much time one has to aim (and, on seeing the incident reports, I couldn't justify any more precision). I'd call them "no time to aim", "time for a sight picture" and "do I really want to take this shot?" distances. Using myself as my standard, I don't think there would be much difference in how I approached the actual task of shooting when the target is at 18 feet or 27 feet or 36 feet.

Time to aim is going to have differences based on a number of factors besides distance, e.g. weapon, movement, light/dark, other people, home/out, etc.

Other people, of course, may have different training and experience that would make those variations in distance more significant. Just being younger than I am, or having better vision, may extend your shooting abilities beyond mine (which, honestly, wouldn't be much of a stretch :) )

[FMJMIKE]

FMJMIKE: Are you looking to design a practice program for yourself, or advising somebody else?

Jeff22......... I just want to be prepared for a situation that I might most likely face. So.......If the attacker is going to be under 20 feet away I need a weapon that is very effective for close ranges. Seems like a low recoiling, high capacity weapon would be handy. Ideas ???

[MostlyGenius]

Librarian: Your scenario makes my point. At 50' the guy with the knife is a problem, but he is not a shooting problem yet. Realistically there are probably a number of non-shooting solutions available at 50' but if we screw those up we get a gunfight at 10'. Even at 50' you should probably get your gun into your hand, and find something to stand behind (or break contact and leave.)

The reason distance makes a different is time. A 1 second draw stroke is going to give the attacker 14 feet of linear movement. So we need to get that draw stroke done well before 14 feet. If we believe that we are going to need more than one shot to solve the problem then every quarter second split time will give him another 3.5 feet of movement.

How many close quarter gun fights started out as long distance problems and were mismanaged to contact distance.

[TallPine]

I'd call them "no time to aim", "time for a sight picture" and "do I really want to take this shot?" distances.

Those sound like pretty good distance classifications to me :)

[Double Naught Spy]

The reason distance makes a different is time. A 1 second draw stroke is going to give the attacker 14 feet of linear movement. So we need to get that draw stroke done well before 14 feet. If we believe that we are going to need more than one shot to solve the problem then every quarter second split time will give him another 3.5 feet of movement.


Realistically, nobody has a 1 second cold draw stroke from concealment except maybe when the hand starts out on the gun (as with some pocket carry options). I certainly would not want to base my defense parameters on such a quick draw when in reality I am not likely to attain it. Two seconds is probably more realistic for most folks. Sure, many of us can do it quicker than that, especially after warming up, adjusting our clothing, holster, etc., but such options usually are not available in real life.

Something else to keep in mind, FMJMike is that while there may be typical gun fight distances, as historical data of unrelated situations to your own, the data are mutually exclusive to your situation. In other words, historical precedent can't be viewed as deterministic of what you will encounter. It is sort of like the oft queried statement of "Is five shots enough?" and the answer is, "Yes, except when it isn't." The problem is, based on the historical insight, you have no way to know if your incident will by typical or atypical. If atypical and you base all your training on what is typical, then you may end up typically screwed.

Ken Hackathorn had a good suggestion. He idea was that folks should spend about 90% of the training time at 10 yards and less and the other 10% at greater distances, certainly out as far as 50 yards, and to be sure to regularly shoot all 100%. You don't want to do your 10% long distance training as complete shooting sessions 1 or 4 times a year, but try to do some with each shooting session.

[ZeSpectre]

All of my experience comes from LE work in a city environment.
Contact distance to about 15ft and to be blunt contact to 1 ft was the most common by far!

I definitely practice at distance 15-20 yards to keep my trigger work honed but I also do (when I can) CQ drills (a lot of dry fire but some live fire as well).

[revjen45]

I recall an article some time back that said for LAPD the "average" firearms engagement occurred at <20 ft in light too dim to see the sights. Sorry, cant cite- the dog ate it. I know that involved cops, but it's probably not too far off for "civilians." It's likely safe to say that a 10X scope isn't required for self defense outside of a major urban riot.

[MostlyGenius]

Double Naught Spy:

My point was not about hard and fast times for draw speed, my point was about distance covered. If the threat is closing you are going to end up with a lot of contact distance gunfights unless you are really fast or manage the situation well enough to get started early.

[ARTJR338WM]

This is all so much hypothisising. My hope is if I ever have to draw my weapon I will see the impending threat far enough away, (but exactly how far is that?) so once i draw my weapon the threat will still far enough away I can use the weapon to diswade his intentions.

The reason i desided to take advantage of my states CC laws is simple. One of my favorite places to take my oldest son fishing is located in a nice quite out of the way place not known for ANY type of criminal activity. Then two things happened that changed all that.

<>Incident #1-I was fishing with my oldest son of five, when i heard what sounded like two men arguing noisly headed our way. We were on a large point in heavy vegitation, so i could not see them untill thay were less than twenty feet away from me. When i sttod up I could tell thay were both extreamly starteled to see me, I also instantly noticed thay had a BIIIIG bag of reefer (sorry cant spell the clinincle name for pot) and were arguing over it for some reason. Thay both did a about face and ran away. That left me concerned primarly because no#1 I had one of the loves of my life with me, and second I was totally cought off gaurd by the possability of that type of person being at the lake i was at, and being on a point i had no were to go if I had to flee with my son.

<>Incident#2 Different lake same general area with in a 10 mile radious. I was getting out of my truck to go fishing again with my five year old son, when I noticed the "no parking this side of lot" sighn was shot up:cuss:. As i was looking at it in disgust a IN DOC cop pulled up and said hellow. We talked and i commented on the shot up sign. He replied thats nothing did you read in the paper what happend here last week? I replied no, I had been working 60 to 70hrs a week for the last five months so I have had little time for anyhting.

He went on to inform me that some drug types had brought four men to this park that had been tied up previously, nelt them down and shot them all in the head:what::what:. One servived but was left for dead, and after the shooters left made his way to a local establishment and got help. Now keep in mind this is in a city in Indiana not known for any type of vilont crime, let alone gangland exicutions. I would never even think of taking my son to place that was the hange out of dangerous criminals, but i guess today it can and does happen anywhere. When I got home after talking to the DOC cop I asked my wife why the :cuss: didnt she tell me about the above killings? She replied I did not know you fished there:banghead:

So now when i go fishing or anywhere out of the way with my son(s) I bring my 3"XD40 with. Nice to know I am no longer at the mercy of stranagers.

[littlegator]

I've always heard from 0 to 3 yards.

You should see how well I can shoot the target at 0 yards - I can put em all within 5 inches like nobody's business. Can someone say, cloverleaf? :p

[Matthew Temkin]

0-12 feet will take care of most situations.

[gallo]

On the street, you'd be hard pressed to justify shooting at more than 7 yards away. Inside your house, it would be hard to find a distance of more than 7 yards to shoot clearly. I suppose it depends on your floor plans, but 0 to 5 yards seems a logical distance.

[Hardtarget]

If you and the BG can see each other...and he is shooting at you...AND you cannot put real cover between you and the BG...then you are in a self defense situation. I don't care how far away he is.

Remember...a hit , even from pure bad luck, can kill. Thats why we should practice, at least some, at much longer ranges than "the norm".

I'm not good at distance and never claimed to be. I just shoot some at distance,(sometimes 200 yds), just to see how things are when the target is very small. Its fun to do when you and a buddy can spot for eachother and the competition makes you concentrate better.

Mark.

[sm]

My personal experiences as a civilian where firearms were produced with/without shots fired include:

-Rule of Threes: 3 seconds, 3 shots, 3 yards
-Contact
-Bad Breath
-Further out.
-Others

Incoming runs from .22 rimfire, 00 buck, 12 ga slugs, to .45-70...
and whatever else.
Firearms runs from derringers, to revolvers, to semi auto handguns, single shot shot shots to repeaters, and rifles, of all platforms.

One shot fired from one gun, to who knows how many guns and how many rounds fired all total.
One time the Police said the brass left where I was in the midst of a crossfire..."helluva lot and we ain't counted it all yet"

There is much truth to hearing the "thwack" then the shot on incoming.

FWIW, yes, one can miss with "all them pellets" from a shotgun from ~ 7 yds.
Granted I was moving and scooting and wearing out pavement and shoe leather, but yeah, *thankfully* some folks can't run a shotgun and one can miss with all them pellets.

I do recommend one take prudent steps to not find any of this out for themselves.

Footwear choices are real important equipment considerations...


Use Enough Run!

[Jim Keenan]

There is simply not enough data on civilian (non-police) shootings to provide information. In spite of all the talk here about self-defense, where a bad guy with a long record is shot by a family man with a spotless reputation, it usually doesn't happen that way.

The usual civilian shooting gets headlines like "Man slain in argument outside bar" or "Alleged drug dealer killed in shootout over territory." Distance? 0-6 feet, not 50 yards or even 7 yards.

Jim

[Rexster]

I work for a big-city PD, and there has to be some reason we only "qual" out to to 15 yards. It used to be 25, but somewhere along the way, it was reduced. OTOH, the last murder scene I worked involved a bad guy, who had been in a dispute at a burger joint, driving a short distance away, getting out of his truck, standing on his hind legs, and nailing one of the other party from over 70 yards, with a weapon firing .40 S&W cartridges. I don't recall the number of empty cases, but I remember thinking the shooter must have emptied a magazine. Edited to add: Most civilian shootings seem to happen at conversational distances.

[12many]

So it seems to me that being able to access or have the defense weapon fast and being able to load/ready/fire/aim the defense weapon fast is more important than being able to shoot 2" groups at 15 yards. Yes?

Also, advance warning of a break in or maintaining distance from a potential attacher seems important too.

I probably focus too much on just trying to shoot accurate from longer distances, which is fun, but not as necessary in real life encounter.

[jsconnelly]

This is as good a place as any for my first post. I've been lurking in here and the reloading section for a while.

If you want "typical" distances, I think you have to evaluate "typical" situations you may find yourself in. For example, I usually practice from 0'-21'. My feeling is that based on my life style, where I live, where I work and shop, etc., bad stuff would likely happen within those distances. Any further than that I think I'd try and retreat first. I also know my limitations with the snubby I carry almost all the time. I'm not likely to shoot the crazy guy with a rifle atop the water tower with the 38. ;) One of the reasons I chose that weapon is because of the likely range from which I may have trouble find me.

Here is an interesting article on the "21 foot rule":

http://www.ar15.com/content/swat/200403-21_FT_Rule.pdf

[Sir Aardvark]

IIRC, my CCW instructor said...

statistically, most shootings occur at an average range of 7 feet, and about 80% of the time are in a low-light situation.