Makarov IJ70-17AH


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Cron
December 31, 2007, 08:16 PM
I MAY have a line on one of these NIB in .380. (1994) What's the word on reliability? Decent accuracy? Any comments welcome.

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DENALI
December 31, 2007, 08:43 PM
There a Russian copy of the PP and there very well done considering. I doubt very much that the pistol in question is new but don't let that slow you down. Most of the Russian one's I've seen seem to have been copper washed or such so of course there not finely finished. There very accurate and reliable and usually at under $225.00 a great buy. The very best ones come from either Russia or the old East Germany with some of the bulgarian Mak's being good buy's also........I own 6 of these pistols and have nothing but praise for them.............................

Pilot
December 31, 2007, 09:40 PM
Its not a Russian copy of a PP. Its a MUCH better pistol. They are very reliable, very accurate and a great buy. I'd rather have a Bulgie Mak in 9x18, but the .380 commercial Russian Maks are great too. I have one and its a real shooter.

DENALI
December 31, 2007, 10:02 PM
Actually the proper caliber of these pistol's is 9x18 and many of the .380's were re-barreled to the more common of the two cartridges to improve sale's. P.S. I agree with pilot they are superior to the pistol they are based upon...................................

North Bender
December 31, 2007, 10:34 PM
Denali, your comment about Russian Makarovs being copper washed and not finely finished completely throws me. I have never heard or seen any such thing.

And I don't know that they are superior to the pistol they are based on? The main difference bewtween the IJ70 and the military Makarov are the adjustable sights, which some complain about. They snag clothing and may drift out of alignment. Lots of folks switch these sights over to permanent mounts.

Cron, these pistols are accurate, unbelievably reliable, simple to strip and clean, and even though I'm more of a fan of the 9x18 version you'll find a wider variety of .380 ammo available. Currently a NIB IJ70 can fetch close to, or over, $300 on auction sites.

DENALI
December 31, 2007, 10:51 PM
I didn't say they were copper washed I said they appeared that way and as to finely finished they certainly aren't by anyone's standard ! Further they are not based on the military Maks they are the military Maks. They were based upon the PP, and much like the CZ-82 they are considered in some circle's to be superior to it.................

Cron
December 31, 2007, 11:35 PM
Thanks for the info. I wasn't expecting such positive reports.

North Bender
January 1, 2008, 12:02 AM
An IJ70 is simply not a military Makarov. There's over $200 difference in the value of an IJ70 and a Russian military Makarov.

There have been complaints about the finish being thin on some IJ70s.

They are so dissimilar to a PP that I won't begin to list the differences.

DENALI
January 1, 2008, 12:25 AM
Different yes, but based on the PP they are. As to IJ70's ect.. back when first imported to the best of my knowledge they were all surplus military and at the gun show I attended yesterday could be had for $140.00 including the neat little Ruskie holster. As much as I like the little pistol's I'd never ever consider paying $300.00 for one and I don't care what the importers are tacking on to try justifing that kind of price.............

HisSoldier
January 1, 2008, 12:41 AM
I'm pretty sure my IJ70 was made for commercial sale and was originally chambered in .380. The internal design has some innovations. I personally much prefer the PPK/S for many reasons, notably the SA trigger. The SA trigger on my Mak has a terribly long takeup. The Mak, is heavy and large for a .380 and even the 9MM Makarov round. These are just my opinions, and if anyone doesn't agree that's fine, I'm not an expert. I got mine free so it doesn't owe me anything.

DENALI
January 1, 2008, 01:23 AM
I'm finding myself in agreement with much of what HisSoldier has to say. Regardless the Mak is a great little pistol, keeping in mind that the pistol(s) in question are circa 1994 and to my mind are not new manufacture but surplus as virtually all were back then. Regardless of current chambering the Russians back then only produced them in the strange 9x18 version and the .380's were just re-barreled for the western market's..and they are an enlarged unlicensed copy of the Walther model PP..........................

North Bender
January 1, 2008, 01:25 AM
Some say they are based on PPs, some say they aren't. Not worth arguing about.

I will buy any IJ70, or any Makarov in good condition, for $140. That is a complete steal.

Importers aren't tacking any price boost; they haven't been imported for years. The current going rate for a NIB IJ70 can easily be checked on auction sites. It may not be what you will pay, but it is what they are going for.

They were made in .380 for export, not re-chambered military versions. Hence the differences in finish, adjustable sights, and different marking.

DENALI
January 1, 2008, 02:55 AM
I've checked a few places like GunsAmerica and have seen what you're talking about ($595.00 for an IMEZ manufactured Mak) but they will never get that kind of money. The whole greatness of the Maks was the sub-$200.00 price tags.and good level of quality for the price. Now apparently because of dwindling supplys the price has become inflated far beyond there value.........................

Pilot
January 1, 2008, 07:38 AM
My IJ70 was manufactured in .380. Its one of the Satin Nickel models imported by B-West in 1994. Its a great shooter and very accurate. I don't mind the adjustable sights, and you can replace them with fixed if you want. I don't carry it, but I do carry a fixed sight Bulgie Mak occasionally.

ACORN
January 1, 2008, 09:44 AM
The Hi-Cap Maks were not for military use. AFAIK the only connection with the Walther PP is the outward appearance. Check the mags to see if they are 10 or 12 rounders. The Russian made 12 round mags can fetch big money alone. I've heard of guys paying $75 for them! Look around on www.makarov.com, and www.gunboards.com. Makarov.com is all about Maks, and the Gunboards site has a forum and classified section devoted to Maks. If you can get it for around $200-$250 I'd get it. Maks have developed a cult following an are climbing in price. The military models seem to fetch a premium, but being the commercial models are out of production as of late they'll go up also. Maks are great little gun! The only down side I've heard is the adjustable sights are prone to break. Watch if you decide to buy it that the mags are original mags and not Pro-Mags. While I've never used them I've read less thn good about the Pro-Mags.

Apple a Day
January 1, 2008, 10:01 AM
Gee, I'd love to see one of those "copper washed" Makarovs :rolleyes: Now THAT would be a pimp gun.
Com-bloc countried often use mild steel cases that are copper washed, zinc coated, polymer coated, or have a laquer coat. The gun isn't copper washed.
I have the same gun chambered for 9x18mm. They're heavy for their size. The sights did tend to snag when I carred it concealed. For a fun/range gun it's insanely accurate. The finish on the commercial frame doesn't hold that well against sweat if you carry it concealed in hot weather. Mine showed a litle hint of rust when I'd carry it for a while and then cleaned it after a range session but only on the side that faced me when I carried. If you're looking for a CCW piece I prefer the Bulgarian version which has a smooth, blued finish.
$140 bucks for one is a steal. I've fired thousands of rounds through mine and I've had one failure to feed (the lip of the cartridge case was bent) and I had one bad magazine that wouldn't lock the slide back when it was empty, again, not the gun's fault. Amazingly reliable and accurate, simple to clean and maintain. I'm glad I have two.

briang2ad
January 1, 2008, 01:21 PM
I see Maks sitting at shows now for $250-350 every show - no one is buying them. 2 years ago you got a Bulgie at a show for $150-170. They just don't appeal to me at over $200. I got a Russian for less, and Gunkoted it - nice gun. Very accurate and reliable. But, the ammo is at least as much as a 9mm. For $300-350 you can find a VERY goos 9mm, maybe even a compact, and shoot it for less. But, they are excellent firearms. I did have the fixed replacement sight from Mak.com, but it doesn't stay tight. The original sight is actually a LITTLE better than the Bulgie fixed sight for older eyes, and it is fully adjustable - just doesn't look as good. But, it does stay to POI - amazing, because it doesn't look like it will! I goofed and passed one up two years ago for $125 - tried to get OTD for $100. It was well worn, but I could have gunkoted it - now you cannot touch a Mak for $125!

knockonit
January 1, 2008, 01:49 PM
Yep, I used to buy them for 99 bucks at J & G, I presently have multiple units in bulgies, russian etc, my daughters (4) all have one a keep it handy, they are by far one of the easiest, and most user friendly and accurate units to use.
I keep one in my brief case and typically one in my truck,
I tried the feg;s and well they suck, I do keep one of them in my pontoon boat for unauthorized boarders (ha)
you cant go wrong, either in 9x18 or .380,
good luck with choice.
rj

Pilot
January 1, 2008, 02:51 PM
I bought the five I have all for between $100 and $150 but that was several years ago. My favorite is an East German Mak. I carry a Bulgie that came with black grips and have kept another unissued Bulgie with red star grips NIB. The Satin Nickel Commercial Russian .380 is as good or better quality as all of them except for the E.G. Interestingly, the nickel Mak came with nickled baseplates for the mags instead of the traditional black. Nice touch by the Ruskies! I'd like to round out my collection with a Russian military Mak and Chinese Mak.

AH-1
January 1, 2008, 02:52 PM
:neener:might want to listen to north bender he has forgot more about maks than most people know.the commerical maks with adj. sights were made for export here to get the u.s. dollar period.
one more thing you might want to look at before you buy is the CZ82's.they are in 9mm mak and a great buy and one very accurate pistol.oops they are not a pp copy before that gets started:D
pete

esq_stu
January 1, 2008, 02:55 PM
I have an IJ70 in .380. It is reliable and reasonably accurate. I do not like the adjustable rear sight, and replaced it with a fixed sight.

Texastbird
January 1, 2008, 03:18 PM
Cron if you get this gun, Pearce grips makes a nice wrap around rubber grip which makes it much nicer to hang onto. I have the IJ70 and its a nice little pistol for what I paid for it some years ago.

dewidmt
January 1, 2008, 03:41 PM
I owned a B-West Mak NIB that I purchased in 1995. Great pistol! Accurate, never had a FTE,FTF, anything go wrong. I used it for a carry pistol for about 3 years and then sold it off. Never should have sold it, but you will learn that about all your guns. Mine was manufactured as a .380. You could use the same mags as the 9x18 and you could also put a 9X18 barrel on it if you wanted to convert.

DENALI
January 1, 2008, 04:43 PM
Hi there! Well he sure didn't know that they are based on the Walther model PP. Also submitted for your further perusal, the word "appears".

North Bender
January 1, 2008, 05:25 PM
Perhaps because they aren't based on the PP?

DENALI
January 1, 2008, 05:30 PM
Military Small Arms of the twentieth century, Vol 7 would be a good place to start reading followed by Jane's small arms review. P.S. Northbender Happy new Year!

North Bender
January 3, 2008, 01:28 AM
Denali - as I wrote earlier:

"Some say they are based on PPs, some say they aren't. Not worth arguing about."

However, if the 1911 is based on the Colt SAA because the SAA came earlier and shoots a center-fire bullet, and the M16 is based on the M14 ... you Win!!

At what point do you say a pistol with 27 moving parts is based on a pistol with over 50 moving parts with loaded springs that needs a mechanics manual to dissasamble? What does "based on" mean? My .22 has a wood stock that may be "based on" a .58-caliber Springfield.

Well honestly Denali, no harm - I think you take the conversation in the same vein.

But I do take exception to you saying the Mak is not worth more than $200.

DENALI
January 3, 2008, 01:41 AM
We shall agree to disagree..........................:)

North Bender
January 3, 2008, 01:53 AM
... :) !

Nietzsche
January 3, 2008, 02:08 AM
Hey North

I own a Hicap IJ70-18AH. It shoots no differently than other IJ70's I have owned or borrowed to fire. The grip is obviously wider than a standard model, but actually fit my hand better than the standard. Finish is usually substandard to a Bulgarian or Russian military or East German. Wear is quite common, particularly around the muzzle. If you find one without wear, this should be considered a bonus.

I use Pro Mag magazines, which aren't recommended by most purists, but they have never failed me yet and can be had for much lower costs than original high cap magazines, which, as someone mentioned already, can run up to $75 per mag for the 12 rounders. One issue with Pro Mag magazines is that you are basically limited to either full metal jacket ammo, or 95gr hollow point ammo. 115 grain ammo always jams in a Promag from my experience.

As to the costs, it depends. For someone contemplating a fresh start with a Makarov, I'd probably direct them to get another gun...although being chambered in .380 makes this more appealing in many ways than 9x18, and less appealing in other ways. Ammo availability is almost guaranteed considering all the .380 in the US, but it is a weaker round. New parts are no longer being made for Makarovs anywhere in the world if I understand correctly and eventually this will translate into higher parts prices. 9x18 ammo is rising, and in these economically uncertain times will probably continue to rise, especially so given that many of the ammo offerings have to wing or swim their way all the way from Russia or eastern European surplus warehouses. For you though North I'd say go ahead and get it. You're a Mak guy and probably have enough parts, ammo and accessories to cover any problem or shooting issue that arises for a few years. For someone just starting out, I believe there would be better economic choices out there.

I think that I would agree with some others who've said that Makarovs are a bit overvalued if in 9x18. For a .380 I'd say that you've got a nicely valued firearm in a package you are familiar with. Probably worth having.

Pilot
January 3, 2008, 09:24 AM
I don't know if Maks or Mak parts are still being made anywhere in the world. That is a good question. I know both the Bulgarians and Russians were making commercial Maks in the 90's before the import ban. Maks are not prone to breakage, so I wouldn't be too concerned about parts availibility, but I agree, it could be an issue down the road. I have five Maks and I really only shoot two, so I'm not too worried. You can also reload for 9x18 as new boxer primed brass and bullets are being made.

ACORN
January 3, 2008, 01:19 PM
To the OP, the nice thing is that even though it's a hi-cap you can also use the original single stack mags in them. They just rattle a bit.
If I found one in nice shape and I had ther money, I'd buy it.

ACORN
January 3, 2008, 01:52 PM
Numrich has parts listed. http://www.e-gunparts.com/products.asp?chrMasterModel=2410zPISTOL&MC=

Pilot
January 3, 2008, 02:15 PM
To the OP, the nice thing is that even though it's a hi-cap you can also use the original single stack mags in them. They just rattle a bit.

I think there is a part you can buy through Makarov.com that allows rattle free use of the single stack mags in the hi cap Maks. A friend of mine has a hi cap Mak, but just uses the original mags.

jon_in_wv
January 4, 2008, 10:39 AM
The Makarovs are an incredibly reliable weapon. They are also accurate and really nice shooters. There is much stouter ammo available in 9x18 than the .380. Ammo is still available and easy to find. Several manufacturers are even loading new loadings for it. In either caliber is is well worth 200-300 dollars. I cant' think of another comparable firearm in that price range so I question why someone would way they are "over" valued. They are more expensive than they used to e but they are still quite reasonable.

DENALI
January 4, 2008, 02:32 PM
Peace friend, When they first came in country I was buying them for as little as 120,00 and that was the little Ruskie military job! I'm sure they've gone up in price as there availability has gone down. So with that said I can say that to my MIND they will never be worth more than that amount of money. P.S. Did I mention I own six of them!

jon_in_wv
January 4, 2008, 04:42 PM
HA HA. I'm not trying to be hostilie towards you Denali. I missed the boat when it came to the really cheap ones. I bought my Bulgarian for about 200 bucks. I haven't seen anything else out there for that price that impresses me nearly as much as that Bulgy. I also missed the boat on the Star BMs. I won two of them and I paid about 220 for each. They were also going for about 130 a few years back. I would really like to send my Bulgy out for a refinish and some modern sights. Its a really cool shooter.

ACORN
January 4, 2008, 05:24 PM
Yup, IIRC Russians were $89 and EGs were $99.
The thing is, the value is what the market, will pay, not in what one individual will pay. I won't pay $1200 for a Python but somebody else will.
The question should be, if you were going to sell yours, what would you want for it?. The $100 you paid? I'd bet NOT!

alamo
January 4, 2008, 09:06 PM
I bought an N.I.B. IZH-70 .380 Baikal Mak a few months ago for $125. And I do mean absolutely N.I.B. I stopped by a small gunshop and there were two of them on consignment. Some fella was weeding out his collection who obviously hadn't kept up with Makarov prices.

When it comes to advice on Makarovs, I would always listen to North Bender.

jon_in_wv
January 5, 2008, 03:15 AM
You suck. Congrats on the good deal. I paid 199 for mine and I wouldn't quite describe it as nice as yours.

note: When I bought mine it was still caked in cosmoline. I bought a box of ammo and took it to the indoor range at the store where I bought it. It fired perfectly and didn't jam even once. I also fire a 25 group offhand I could cover up with my palm. I really think the design of the MAK is pure genius. It has something like 35 parts while the Glock or 1911 have around 52. While its not a powerhouse it is a really good weapon for its intended purpose and I personally think it is a winner as a CCW piece with JHPs in either 9x18 or .380.

North Bender
January 5, 2008, 03:40 AM
Hello Nietzsche my old friend, and thanks for the compliment Alamo!

I'll only dispute the value of a $200 - $300 9x18 Makarov in comparison to another pistol. Nietzsche or Denali (my other old friend), for the sake of argument only, what pistol did you have in mind in that price range that compares? I have to say that the ease of disassembly of a Makarov is a huge reason for this old Vet to appreciate the gun. Man I love a gun that I can thouroughly understand. So if you have a pistol to compare to, I'd like to see it strip down as straight forward as a Makarov. And be as notably reliable.

To go a bit off topic: Unlike the other 9x18 pistols, e.g. the P 64 and PA-63, this country is awash in Makarov parts. I've seen benches at gun shows full of Mak parts. The PA-63 does use a lot of PP parts, but that knowledge of substitution is probably not for beginners.

I posted earlier that a .380 may turn out in the long run to be more versatile because of the ammo. But 9x18 could be considered to be .380 in +P and that's my preference right now.

North Bender
January 5, 2008, 03:54 AM
Well, I'll add: if Russia, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and to a lesser extent Italy (Poland, Slovakia (Ps Grand) and Serbia (Prvi Partisan) are also sometime suppliers of 9x18) decide not to export cheaper 9x18 ammo and we get stuck with the price of American 9x18 we're screwed. The caliber is certainly not worth paying over $20 a box for. If you buy the pistol in 9x18 you're pretty much commited to internet sales if you want to shoot a lot.

jon_in_wv
January 5, 2008, 04:03 AM
I bought an extra .380 barrel for my Mak. If getting 9x18 ever becomes a problem I'll just switch barrels.

denfoote
January 5, 2008, 04:25 AM
http://usera.imagecave.com/denfoote/IJ70-17A.jpg

Here's my IJ70-17A.
I bought it new in the early nineties for $89. :neener:
I just keeps on going bang, what can I say!!
Some have berated the adjustible sights, but I set mine some 17 years ago and they have not moved!! :D

North Bender
January 5, 2008, 05:01 AM
$89 - now That trancends whether Makarovs are a good deal or not!

(I'll give you $90 for it)

Pilot
January 5, 2008, 11:15 AM
If you buy the pistol in 9x18 you're pretty much commited to internet sales if you want to shoot a lot.

You can also reload for 9x18 which is what I'd do if ammo got expensive. The .380 barrel conversion is also a good suggestion, but one of my Maks is alrady chambered from the factory in .380, so I wouldn't rebarrel.

woad_yurt
January 5, 2008, 09:28 PM
Today, at about 2:45, I got the same gun in 9X18 for $173 (out the door price) in a pawn shop. I am pretty happy right now.

Nietzsche
January 10, 2008, 10:38 AM
North Bender wrote:
I'll only dispute the value of a $200 - $300 9x18 Makarov in comparison to another pistol. Nietzsche or Denali (my other old friend), for the sake of argument only, what pistol did you have in mind in that price range that compares? I have to say that the ease of disassembly of a Makarov is a huge reason for this old Vet to appreciate the gun. Man I love a gun that I can thouroughly understand. So if you have a pistol to compare to, I'd like to see it strip down as straight forward as a Makarov. And be as notably reliable.

To go a bit off topic: Unlike the other 9x18 pistols, e.g. the P 64 and PA-63, this country is awash in Makarov parts. I've seen benches at gun shows full of Mak parts. The PA-63 does use a lot of PP parts, but that knowledge of substitution is probably not for beginners.

I don't have a list of guns that I'd recommend off the top of my head. A search on Gunbroker for guns of comparable price would probably be easily done. I suppose the ones I have experience with would be the Bersa .380, used S&W .38 revolvers. Used .357 revolvers. Many of these can be found for 200 to 300 dollars. Buying used isn't a problem for me. After all, Makarovs are typically used! :)

Your experience with Makarov parts availability is very different from mine. I never find any Makarov spare parts here. True, I live in the economically backward state of Mississippi, but we are as a group proud supporters of guns as hunting implements, self defense tools, and as marriage companions. :D So it always strikes me odd that I don't find more parts and accessories available here in my state. I come across the occasional Makarov pistol for sale, and procuring magazines is fairly easy, but parts are not to be found. I myself have got a parts kit with a slide for sale on this site right now...but doing a search I notice I'm the only one. That seems to suggest that a huge surplus isn't universal...otherwise I'd see more parts being posted for sale.

It wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea for some Makarovnik to canvass Numrich and other parts suppliers to find out just how many Mak parts they have in inventory, if these companies were willing to part with such information. I do believe that I heard that new parts for Makarov are no longer being made, and that Bulgaria was the last country to produce these parts. If true, this means that eventually...at some point...parts will become an issue. Both availability, and price, which are not always the same. Sometimes things can't be had at any price, cause they're gone. Which is why I don't enjoy my favorite delicacy...passenger pigeon :D...on a more frequent basis.

My other issue is with 9x18mm. In .380, a Makarov can be reasonably assured of always having some type of ammo to shoot. .380 is a popular caliber, and companies will continue to make and sell it at outrageous prices...but available even if expensive. 9x18mm is a far, far less popular caliber and only 6 or 7 guns in this country use it. Versus the 100's of guns that use .380. With economic problems potentially on the horizon, companies are going to need to decide what they produce, and choose not to produce. Likewise customers have to decide what they will purchase and not purchase. Purchasing 9mm Parabellum for use in their Berreta, Ruger, Hi Point carbine, Colt, Llama, Taurus et al 9mm's makes economic sense, because the round is widely used across manufacturers. I just don't think 9x18 is going to stand much chance, eventually, in that environment.

Makarovs are fine guns. I love mine. But I'd probably not recommend them to a beginner unless it was chambered in .380, and at a price at or below what a good Bersa or comparable .380 could be had for, given the question over parts availability.

North Bender
January 10, 2008, 11:57 AM
Nietzsche, there are at least 3 full-time internet sites that I know of selling parts for the Makarov. Gunbroker always has Makarov parts. There is no question about parts availability. Maybe that's why your parts kit won't sell.

I won't go into comparing a Makarov to a Bersa. That's been done a lot before and it's a pretty tired subject. I think the Makarov is a way better value. And I think that Makarov parts are more easily available than Bersa parts.

nwilliams
January 10, 2008, 04:15 PM
I picked up two IJ70's in 2007 both were in excellent condition and one cost me $175 and the other $185. I sold one of them to a friend and the other I kept as my summer ccw. Both were 9x18 caliber but I prefer that over the .380 anyway as defense load.

The gun is a great shooter, I only have about 500 rounds through mine but its gone bang every time and I can't get over how accurate they are! I also like the fact that they fit my hand well, I'm not usually a fan of small grips, but the grip on my Makarov is fine.

Here's mine.....
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/nwilliams27/Mak-new7.jpg

Nietzsche
January 10, 2008, 11:20 PM
North Bender wrote:
Nietzsche, there are at least 3 full-time internet sites that I know of selling parts for the Makarov. Gunbroker always has Makarov parts. There is no question about parts availability. Maybe that's why your parts kit won't sell.

I won't go into comparing a Makarov to a Bersa. That's been done a lot before and it's a pretty tired subject. I think the Makarov is a way better value. And I think that Makarov parts are more easily available than Bersa parts

Three full time internet sites are selling parts...right now. But I don't know how many springs or extractors or triggers etc they have in stock, or if they expect to be resupplied again after they sell out their inventory. Might be they have 10,000 spare parts kits, or it might be 50. Once those 50 are gone, there may not be another supply of them again from overseas...ever. If no new parts are being made, then eventually suppliers are going to run out, or they will have to get them from people who break their pistols, or decide to part them out, or whatever. That means that the supply of parts becomes finite. And 25 years from now, when I go looking for parts...there may not be any to be had. If no new parts are being made, that means that eventually it will mean higher prices for parts, and probably disasterously high prices. That's a no-brainer in economics.

My kit probably isn't selling for two reasons. For one, it seems to be priced at just about what it's worth to buy it from those online suppliers. I'm a bit too high on my asking price. Secondly, I don't think it was in a spot that people normally look. I put it under accessories, not pistols for sale, even though it has all the parts except the frame.

Truthfully, I'd be just as content to keep my extra spare parts in case I do have a problem. If someone gives me a good price, I'd sell them. If they don't sell, I'll be equally happy to keep them around.

I don't know enough about a Bersa to compare it to a Makarov either. I've seen them for sale and that's about all. I hear they are good guns. With a Bersa it wouldn't be parts availability as a consideration for why I would recommend it to a new gun buyer, but ammo availability. Bersa is a .380 firearm. One of those popular US calibers. I could just have easily picked CZ 83 in .380 or .32ACP as a good budget priced firearm. One revolution in Russia and 9/10th of the inexpensive 9x18 ammo supply goes out the window.

Even if there isn't a revolution, for me, I'm seriously concerned that the source for inexpensive 9x18mm will dry up regardless. Not today, not tomorrow, but in 2 years, or 3 years, or 10. There are dozens of calibers in history that had their day, then dried up and became obsolete. 9x18 strikes me as having that potential. If you're not concerned about it, then it's not an issue for you. But 9x18 is only used in 6 or 7 guns total that are sold in the US, and no new offerings are being produced. All of the 9x18mm handguns sold in the US are surplus guns. Every one of them. There is not a new 9x18 handgun being produced anywhere in the world that is marketed for sale in the United States. No doubt they are good guns...but they are dead guns too. They are a side branch of gun evolution. Interesting. Not without their positive features, but still and all a line of guns that had their day 25 years ago and only got resurrected as cheap foreign surplus for sale in the US after everyone else got tired of them and switched to something else. And I agree that they were a bargain, and still are a bargain for the quality of firearm you are purchasing. But they have downsides to them...and their line is dead. If they can be changed to something else by putting a new .380 barrel on them, then so much the better. That .380 barrel is a new heart bypass operation that lets it keep going a little longer.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not getting rid of my Makarovs. I've got too much invested in them right now. But if the price of a box of 9x18 ammo goes to $100 a box...I'll find something better. And there isn't a better small handgun for accuracy IMO to be found. But....still.....I'd make do with something else if keeping the Makarov becomes more trouble than its worth.

denfoote
January 11, 2008, 08:42 PM
$89 - now That trancends whether Makarovs are a good deal or not!

(I'll give you $90 for it)


As John Wayne would say:" Not on your life, Pilgrim".

This particular Makarov has the distinction of being the gun in hand during the one and only time I was forced to draw to protect my family: from a daring daylight home invasion!!

It's not going anywhere!!

PCRCCW
January 11, 2008, 11:37 PM
The guns are vantastic...Ive had 6 or 7 over the years and the Bakail was one of them.

They have nothing to do with the Walther PP....guns are nothing alike except the take down of the slide for cleaning. NOTHING alike!

The PM or Makarov is of Russian design and is to Russia what the 1911 is to the states. Very few parts and easily torn down in a ditch in war time if needed.

Great guns..........still carry one on a daily basis.

Shoot well an god bless

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